| The VN have monologues, Shirou per se it's very different because that. |
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FanEu said: So I have been seeing a lot of salty VN readers (especially with the latest episode) who are saying that ufotable's Anime fails as an adaption Apparently the VN is a lot better and very different Then again there are some who say its an accurate adaption So whats the truth? Is the route in the VN really that much matter? Anyone have any examples? I will be starting with the VN soon but I just wanted to read the Fate and Heaven's Feel routes since UBW already has an anime I'll say this: You will hear contradicting opinions. This thread will not prevent the opinions to suddenly become uniform. Those who dislike it will say how it's really bad and use direct comparisons to the VN to show it and will most likely not accept that other ways of doing it is acceptable (which is a valid opinion), though after being called out on it, they will insist that they do NOT want a carbon copy of the VN, be that justified or not. There are some who genuinely think that there are alternative ways to do that, but others will just be disappointed that it's not exactly how they wish it to be, or are affected by the nostalgia factor. Those who like it will most definitly (due to vocal haters) try to clarify that not all VN readers are disliking the adaption. Most of those who see the adaption in a positive light usually have the opinion that "it could be better, but it's fine as it is" or at least "it's not nearly as bad as some people here make it out to be". How good or how bad is it really? That's up to you. Just make sure that you form your opinion just from watching the show. Above all else, don't let yourself be indotrinated by the vocal people, but instead form your own opinion with your own judgement. I myself think that comparing the VN and the anime is not entirely possible, because the media are just different. It's like trying to compare a book (VN) to a TV series (anime), the "book" is usually better because it has more details and better world-building. I think the same applies to F/sn:UBW. The problem is that the VN has a lot of monologues and probably only the greatest fans would really want a series with a sheer endless amount of monologues in animated form. It would defeat the purpose of making an anime. It would be more efficient to make a hybrid, a VN with animated battle cut-scenes instead, if you really wanted to contain all the monologues and have animated battles. I'd actually like it if such a thing really happened. |
Grey-ZoneMay 10, 2015 4:36 PM
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| FSN is a story about Shirou and his internal struggles. As such it's mainly from his POV. Anime takes a third person approach. It is much harder to portray what happens inside a character that way. You'd need to read the VN and judge for yourself if anime did it well enough. I'd say it didn't. |
Stev said: ayy lmao |
| the thing that is maddening is not exactly a bunch of "huge things" it's more like a load of little things that added up to a mountain of shit. especially in the shirou department. the anime makes the choice to take a third person perspective. which in terms of anime it's something you have to do but at the same time there was hardly any real compensation for what was missing. a lot of characterization comes from shirou's POV. it's amazing how much attention to detail in some areas this anime has done but in others it's very bothersome. it makes shirou feel almost like a side character in a story about his ideals. the anime overall feels very...."bare minimum" and you KNOW that it can be done much muich better. it takes more than flashy animation to make a good anime. and then sometimes they do some rather unecissary shit like dedicate half an episode to the coolaid man..... |
| The thing is, Nasu said in an interview that he wants to shift a few explanations and (character) developments around to prevent them from being too much "in your face". And honestly, many people overlook/forget a lot of details in the VN after the first read because the extent of the lore really is quite overwhelming. In an anime that is weekly and spans 9 months with a 3 month break in-between and is limited by TV airing constraints you cannot really expect more from an AO watcher than from a VN reader at his first read, that would be ridiculous. |
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| To this day, the KEY VN players are the only ones who are satisfied with the VN anime adaptations (Clannad, Kanon 2006, Little Busters... Air not so much). |
ooo333 said: To this day, the KEY VN players are the only ones who are satisfied with the VN anime adaptations (Clannad, Kanon 2006, Little Busters... Air not so much). But Steins;Gate |
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| Well, this post was originally created for different discussion, but I'll link it here because it still holds my feelings for this adaptation. Spoiler-free version Aurioch said: Well, I've collected some thoughts, but I probably have forgotten some things of phrased him badly. As I have to rush to do... things (like dinner)... I'll try to add to this post later. The thing is, all that salt me and many others have is not really about specific changes, like lack of "I don't want to be a burden on him", change of Shirou-Rin dynamics, Shinji comedy scenes, weaker Caster etc. (I don't want to count them again). Each change for itself might as well be a pebble on the top of the mountain that is whole VN. However, what it is about is that all those changes being pushed down the mountain and piling up into bigger and bigger heap, which ultimately becomes an unstoppable avalanche. Each of those changes (like lack of Shirou's thought process in ep1), when they're isolated incidents, are easy to be ignored and chalked up to "different medium", "lack of time" or whatever excuse you can use here. However, while individual changes are ignorable... all those changes add up to each other, and together they alter how the work looks like on the whole, regardless of identical skeleton. You can argue that non-VN readers don't really care about it because they never read (and probably never will) the VN, but the fact remains that UBW still has the potential Ufo didn't yet tap into. And considering how late we are into story, there's not enough time to get back and tap into that potential properly. Yeah yeah, I get it, they wanted to show Shirou through the eyes of others... which is actually nice approach. However, there are things that simply can't be shown that way... for example, Shirou's way of thinking, which is (like it or not) integral part of his character and gives different outlook on his actions compared to looking at his actions completely from the 3rd person perspective, and omitting them completely alters the characterization in a way that is, for characters like Shirou, fatal. All of that, coupled with the fact that Fate/Stay Night is one of most popular Visual Novels which automatically sets standard way higher than for regular adaptations, contributes to the potential avalanche we could get because of dozen of small changes that have been accumulated over time. And avalanche we will get, if one specific scene - ufotable's very last chance - isn't done properly. The saddest par is that, when I see how Prisma Illya has been adapted, I'm constantly reminded how good could've UBW been without all those unnecessary changes. Addendum: It's not impossible to adapt something with many changes. Steins;Gate is prime example of VN being adapted perfectly into different medium; Key's VNs adaptations were also great ones (yes, even J.C.Staff's Little Busters, you mongrels :P). Heck, if you want, look at Peter Jackson's LotR and Hobbit; first one had ton of shit cut from the books (for example, a lot of Sam's monologues after Fellowship of the Ring, and Gandalf's role has been reduced in movies compared to the book), while latter was expanded into three movies and they still were great adaptations. It's just that this adaptation didn't do it as good as it could. That's my major issue with it, as I know that the adaptation of my favorite fantasy universe could've been much better. |
astroprogs said: If HF ended up being a single movie, what would it need to do so it can get a high score from all of you? Not air. |
| It's nowhere near as bad as what Pierrot did to Tokyo Ghoul, but I admit that coming from ufotable, who made such a splendid job with KnK and a great one with /0, it's a bit of a disappointment thus far. As a standalone animu, it's totally alright, but as as VN reader you can't help but feel frustrated by all the missed opportunities and some regretable choices the studio made while adaptating this route, especially when it's your favorite one. Which (sadly) leads me to believe that UBW was more of a test for them, to see how far they could animation-wise, than a work in which they really gave their all. Tho I'm still hopeful they'll learn from their mistakes with UBW to provide us with the best possible adaptation of HF (and then Mahoyo, and then Tsukihime, and then /HA, and then...). |
| Proud founder of The Official Anti-Ging Freecss Fan Club Join now! Kellhus said: GuusWayne said: there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat. |
| Yes, ufo has really butchered a lot by omitting scenes, foreshadowing, monologues and back stories, and have also changed a lot, which makes certain characters seem stupid and generic - Not to mention they added a load of pointless original scenes that barely contribute to anything. Second cour seems extremely rushed too. FanEu said: I'm 97% sure these people are just blinded by the fireworks and are deluding themselves.Then again there are some who say its an accurate adaption |
| BAN ME |
| People came in expecting a glorious adaptation. They are angry they got an alright one. Is the VN better? I'd say in every way except for animation. But my expectations were tempered, and I've been enjoying the show for what it is instead of raging about it. |
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FanEu said: So I have been seeing a lot of salty VN readers (especially with the latest episode) who are saying that ufotable's Anime fails as an adaption Apparently the VN is a lot better and very different Then again there are some who say its an accurate adaption So whats the truth? Is the route in the VN really that much matter? Anyone have any examples? I will be starting with the VN soon but I just wanted to read the Fate and Heaven's Feel routes since UBW already has an anime ufoFSN to FSN VN is what Tokyo Ghoul Root A is to Tokyo Ghoul manga. That is quite the apt comparison, especially with what has been going on with second cour. Except that I'd say Root A does less damage to the main character's characterization than ufo fsn. Characterization removed or altered. Important moments rushed beyond all recognition. Important scenes lacking the punch they need. Unimportant anime original filler material. Removed important explanations and lore without which a lot of things seems like an asspull or are outright confusing and unintelligible. Entire character backstories removed. Scenes altered to make the main character look worse. Fights altered from a more tactical and strategic appraoch the VN described them in to "omg omg explosions, look at dat budget". Horribly uneven pacing. |
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| I think people way oversell the VN, like its some piece of of high art, when its just a fun read with some decent twists and characters and a reasonably well built magical system/world. |
Feaor said: I think people way oversell the VN, like its some piece of of high art, when its just a fun read with some decent twists and characters and a reasonably well built magical system/world. Well "art" is subjective anyway and the lore is actually quite HUGE, which is probably the greatest hurdle of the adaption. Still, I agree with your post. Some over-glorify the VN, or bath in its nostalgia. Considering the HUGE lore, it's close to impossible to adapt it. I mean the complains are not much different to almost any other "book to TV series" adaption in the west. "The book is sooooooo much better" is an old phrase. Escpacially due to the HUGE amount of lore just pushes the "The book is sooooooo much better" aspect even more, because the "TV series" form can not contain as much content as the "book" form. WrongPriest said: >Still hasn't read Heavens Feel. I'm assuming So you've read the info dump route, the action route... But not the one that turns both upside down and sodomises them roughly? At the end of each episode there's a set chess pieces, In the HF PV it has the chessboard being flipped upside down and sucked backwards through a black hole. While I agree with that, it's not really relevant for the comparison with ufoUBW. |
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WrongPriest said: I don't think that the possibility of HF being amazing excuses any of the issues from the first two routes. To me Fate/ is just fun fluff that's reasonably well executed but not particularly incredible.>Still hasn't read Heavens Feel. I'm assuming So you've read the info dump route, the action route... But not the one that turns both upside down and sodomises them roughly? At the end of each episode there's a set chess pieces, In the HF PV it has the chessboard being flipped upside down and sucked backwards through a black hole. |
Yhneiil said: VN Shirou is a millions times better. He actually has depth and characterization in the VN. |
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Yhneiil said: Book version of [insert any character from any fiction that got both a book and TV version here] is a million times better than the TV series version of [insert same character as before here]. fix'd |
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WrongPriest said: I don't quite think that analogy makes sense because while each of the different routes art part of the greater whole, they are still somewhat contained as their own story so its a little different than just watching 2/3 of a show or reading 2/3 of a book. Also my favorite episode of Katagatari is episode 7 which is less than 2/3 of the way through :>It's weird, I've only watched 2/3rds of School Days and Katanagatari but when I poke around the sub-forum with "I don't get what all the fuss is about" people just shake their heads :( Some characterisation may seem inconsequential unless in hindsight. Anyway, HF is coming out soon and yes, how fleshed out Shirou is in UBW is very important for that route. @ Grey, so yes it is relevant. |
WrongPriest said: Anyway, HF is coming out soon and yes, how fleshed out Shirou is in UBW is very important for that route. @ Grey, so yes it is relevant. I was saying VN HF is at this moment not very relevant for what has been released for ufoUBW at this point in time. The things that have an impact on HF is the stuff that we will see from next week on. Everything else will (probably) be shown again in the HF movies, since (aside from prologue) they will probably not have a "skip scene" function as the VN had, so we'll probably go through some stuff again. |
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| How many of you have read the F/Z novel? I'm slightly curious because based on the few scenes of F/SN I've read, the amount of content that is cut is comparable to F/Z (though there are other reasons why UBW is not as well adapted) but it's a little odd to me that I don't see anywhere near the same level of complaints for Zero when it suffers many of the same difficulties in adaptation. |
| The anime is good, but that's in spite how this adaptation has been handled as a whole. It takes quite a few screw ups to make UBW merely "good" |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
WrongPriest said: fst said: How many of you have read the F/Z novel? I'm slightly curious because based on the few scenes of F/SN I've read, the amount of content that is cut is comparable to F/Z (though there are other reasons why UBW is not as well adapted) but it's a little odd to me that I don't see anywhere near the same level of complaints for Zero when it suffers many of the same difficulties in adaptation. It's the same with KnK, There was quite a bit missing, some of it arguably necessary. Ufotable love their Show>Tell. The difference with between the above was that they were both still very palatable with fans. The difference is that Fate/Stay Night is a VN were you spend 60+ Hours from purely the MC's POV. It just doesn't work here, when something core is removed. You know, when you put it that way, it sounds incredibly boring and excessively masturbatory in nature, as if requiring that much to tell the story is just innefficient. |
| The anime is good. Just not the Masterpiece people were expecting I´ll go with some points people have alredy said; The anime taking a third person view stance doesnt work as well as in other cases, because 95% of the story in the vn is told in a First person POV, which actually gives us insight in Shirou´s mind, the way we see how he reacts and aproaches to situations changes the reader´s view on his character. Here, taking that, Shirou no diferent than in the vn, but his thought and actions lack the detail they have in the vn, which affects he is seen in the eyes of others. HOWEVER, taking that apart, is not that that bad, in fact, it still manages to keep most of the essential stuff from the VN. (And i make sure of that, i do read the vn every week to compare to the weeks episode, and they do make things faster, that is true, but they dont skip what is mostly important) But people saying Deen did it better have serious issues. But dont think too much about it, its not the first fanbase that says the show is bad when is mostly loyal to the source material, it happens a lot , Game of Thrones fans, before season 5 and before anime started following its own route was pretty loyal to the books, but readers would DESTROY the show for every minimun change. |
| no |
| I wouldn't say its much better. This is one of the VN adaptations that is really close to the original, if not as good as, or better, in my opinion. The monologuing is lost, and yes, sometimes that would have been fixed if more were included, but it's not as heavy a loss as it sometimes was in Steins;Gate, in my opinion. Shirou is the main character but I feel that if the anime was more exclusively from his viewpoint it wouldn't be as good. I like what ufotable is adding in terms of backstory for other characters as well as relevant Fate/Zero tie-ins, and their fight sequences far outstrip what I could imagine even with the VN's amazing special effects. It isn't like Grisaia no Kajitsu which took a massive shit on the VN. |
| So, I've just started on HF. I'm about half an hour in and if anything, Shirou's even more of a dumbass in this than in the UBW anime. Perhaps I'll never understand the claims that he's so smart and clever and calculating. |
fst said: F/SN seems to run on Shirou making questionable decisions over and over again imo. He's even more frustratingly dumb in Fate though, at least from what I've seen.I'm about half an hour in and if anything, Shirou's even more of a dumbass in this than in the UBW anime. Perhaps I'll never understand the claims that he's so smart and clever and calculating. |
WrongPriest said: fst said: So, I've just started on HF. I'm about half an hour in and if anything, Shirou's even more of a dumbass in this than in the UBW anime. Perhaps I'll never understand the claims that he's so smart and clever and calculating. First ask yourself who made those claims. Got it? Good, you may have just found your own answer. hooray im doing it right |
| the anime is good. of course it could have done things better (more monologues) but still... and generally the VN isn't that much of a literary masterpiece as everyone claims. |
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| This was a post i made a a while ago about my mindset for enjoying the show: astroprogs said: I think the anime is lackluster as a separate entity AND as an adaptation, but it shines the most as a complementary material with original scenes, different perspectives and mind blowing visuals. And, honestly, I'm alright with this. I already know the story. A 1:1 adaptation isn't gonna add too much for me. I recognize that this sucks for first timers, though. If i judge it as a an adaptation, i find that it's alright, which frustrates me greatly because the source material is known to be one of the best VNs ever written, and it's being animated by one of the industry's animation spearheads. "Exceptional" should be the default expectation for a show with this many ingredients for success. Instead we got "alright". If i judge it as a standalone, then it just doesn't work because it's missing a ton of characterization for the character the entire route is about. They dropped the ball so hard on that one in the first cour. The only way i could fully enjoy it was by looking at it as an extra thing. A truly amazing complementary material. Nothing more, nothing less. |
astroprogsMay 10, 2015 9:33 PM
fst said: So, I've just started on HF. I'm about half an hour in and if anything, Shirou's even more of a dumbass in this than in the UBW anime. Perhaps I'll never understand the claims that he's so smart and clever and calculating. Well, it could be worse considering the Dead Ends...... |
| no |
| So I never read the novel and I think that season 2 is barely good So I kind of dropped it. One of my friends claim that this adaptation sucks and that the VN is a lot better . So is there a chance I would like thr VN seeing as I don't like the anime ? |
| Given the right situation , the right story , anyone can be shaped into Snake. -Revolver Ocelot , MGS2 |
Akabawi said: So I never read the novel and I think that season 2 is barely good So I kind of dropped it. of my friends claim that this adaptation sucks and that the VN is a lot better . So is there a chance I would like thr VN seeing as I don't like the anime ? Depends on if you can make it past the early part of Fate route which is a lot of info. The VN is really good if you can get to like day 8 or 9 of Fate route, after that it's (and I didn't mind the start of Fate but some do) Fate route imo is the weakest route, but the end and the stuff with Saber is really good. So if you make it past Fate and like it you will more than like the rest. |
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Akabawi said: So I never read the novel and I think that season 2 is barely good So I kind of dropped it. One of my friends claim that this adaptation sucks and that the VN is a lot better . So is there a chance I would like thr VN seeing as I don't like the anime ? If you have found a book to be better than a movie, then there is a good chance your answer is yes. |
| I'll change this as soon as I think of something clever. |
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