Attack on Titan
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Dec 16, 11:26 PM
#51
ktg said: @CipherKen I address this separately, because you are not lying, so I can keep this thread clean. CipherKen said: Was there a specific thing you thought Zeke was stupid to do? I had a previous comment where I explained this, here's the quote: ktg said: - So I assume that you agree that Zeke was portrayed as a smart person, so I won't mention scenes to prove that. Zeke assumed that when Eren and he touch each other, he would be in control. This was risky and stupid, because there was no proof of that. From his POV, it would have been better to - even forcefully - touch Eren in Marly (we had a flashback when they first time met in Marley), and if it turns out that he cannot control the founding titan, he still could have used the Marley's army to stop Eren. Eren would have been alone without backup and Zeke could have lied how he accidentally ran into Eren and wasn't plotting something. Even if we assume that Zeke wanted to make sure that the Rumbling works, so wanted to have a mini Rumbling. He could have tried that when he landed with Eren in that aircraft on Paradis. They were close and there was no reason to wait. Paradis' forces weren't even smart enough to keep them in separate rooms. The reason why I mentioned that they should have tried at that point is because they waited, Eren got beheaded, so "almost" failed to execute their plan. And if you think about it, they didn't do anything during that time. Zeke was sitting in a forest and Eren was sitting in a cell. So by waiting, they simply risked their plan, because Marley needed some time for plot reasons, while logically this makes no sense. (Also, if we accept my previous point to be a plot hole, then they should have failed factually.) CipherKen said: Remember, Zeke didn't know the founder's true powers That's correct, but previously he was portrayed as a smart, cautious man. So accepted Eren's ideas, or I assume Eren proposed them and not Zeke, was a stupid thing to do. He should have forced a contact when he met Eren in Marley, so in case Eren was "truly" bad, not brainwashed and Zeke couldn't control the founding titan, he had a chance to stop him because his "allies" were in Marley. CipherKen said: Think of it as a severe upset in power scales, the rumbling wiped everything out, people, trees, houses, establishments, military bases.. etc, so you don't have the same resources, material, or manpower anymore, even if they know what to invent, people would be too busy surviving and rebuilding instead of waging a war against a nation that wasn't affected. Yes, I understood, my point is that even if at that point technologically they are on the same level as the Paradis Island, they will still advance faster, so there's no "real peace", because it takes a year and they are already ahead again, theoretically. So there's no way to have 2 civilization with the same amount of resources, knowledge and technology. Also, as far as I know, the 20% that Eren left behind is still significantly more than what Paradis' population was, at least based on the estimations. Like on Paradis we have couple million people at best, while on the whole planet hundred millions. So a conservative estimation would be that 500 million people lived on the whole planet and 20% of that is 100 million. Compared to Paradis' couple millions, that's a huge difference. Like if they wanted to punish Paradis Island, they could have. They even lost their walls, so they had no chance to defend themselves. You're the only one stating that a mental journey is a time traveler. So, even before Eren, the Owl did a time travel. Something that can be explained by their power, looking into other users memories, become time travel. Something so easy, people able to look at each other and interact because they have the same power to look into users memories become time travel. What about this, when you remember what you ate yesterday, is that time travel too? When you ask your friends what they did yesterday, is that time travel too? Fixed timeline doesn't mean everything go according to Eren. Fixed timeline mean that there are no changes in the past. Eren perverting Grisha has always happend, it's not something that happening as the first time when you see it during the story, it already happend, that's what fixed timeline means. Even something you see as a plot twist, some game changing moment, has already happend and that's not because I'm inventing it, but because the story is written that way. And yes, your point was trying to convince me that Eren changed anything since you've tried to use this to prove me wrong. |
Dec 17, 1:44 AM
#52
Reply to ghier
DigitalParadox said:
I've just finished a rewatch of the series for the 3rd time. I've watched it in both sub and dub if that matters to anyone.
I have a couple small gripes with some of the shows narrative just because I don't feel like they were thoroughly explained. I'm not referring to major plot points that encourage you to fill in the blanks based on previous context but just some very minor things that I felt could have used a little more fleshing out. That being said, as a whole, the show is an easy 9.6/10 for me.
My question is as the title says. I know many people dislike the ending for a number of reasons whether that is the lack of a happy ending, the perception that certain characters acted differently towards the end, or the fact the whole thing was potentially "pointless". I've also heard people who disliked season 4 as a whole because it was quite different to earlier seasons. To be clear, these are just things I've heard people say in discussion or what I've seen in other threads.
I will say I've noticed ALOT of reasons people have stated in other discussions have ended up being plot points they simply didn't understand. The story and character motivations definitely become clearer and easier to understand on additional watches. Isayama does a very good job tying most things together and I've noticed many explanations I've read of "plot holes" are simply things some people misinterpreted or didn't understand correctly.
All that being said, I would love to know reasons why you did or did not enjoy the ending. I love discussing this show and I'm very open to other peoples opinions regarding it, even if they differ from my own. Please keep the discussion civil and if your reply isn't intended to be constructive, perhaps just pass by this thread.
I've just finished a rewatch of the series for the 3rd time. I've watched it in both sub and dub if that matters to anyone.
I have a couple small gripes with some of the shows narrative just because I don't feel like they were thoroughly explained. I'm not referring to major plot points that encourage you to fill in the blanks based on previous context but just some very minor things that I felt could have used a little more fleshing out. That being said, as a whole, the show is an easy 9.6/10 for me.
My question is as the title says. I know many people dislike the ending for a number of reasons whether that is the lack of a happy ending, the perception that certain characters acted differently towards the end, or the fact the whole thing was potentially "pointless". I've also heard people who disliked season 4 as a whole because it was quite different to earlier seasons. To be clear, these are just things I've heard people say in discussion or what I've seen in other threads.
I will say I've noticed ALOT of reasons people have stated in other discussions have ended up being plot points they simply didn't understand. The story and character motivations definitely become clearer and easier to understand on additional watches. Isayama does a very good job tying most things together and I've noticed many explanations I've read of "plot holes" are simply things some people misinterpreted or didn't understand correctly.
All that being said, I would love to know reasons why you did or did not enjoy the ending. I love discussing this show and I'm very open to other peoples opinions regarding it, even if they differ from my own. Please keep the discussion civil and if your reply isn't intended to be constructive, perhaps just pass by this thread.
Didn’t understand correctly, huh? Them are fighting words ya know.
Perhaps Isayama didn’t make the effort to fully flesh out his own world and characters. Not saying it’s an easy thing to do - there’s actually no limit to how much depth and complexity you can pour into these things - but all the more reason not to so easily defend it just because you like it. The more complex it gets, the easier it is to look over things and make mistakes.
Why don’t you explain it since you’re so certain it all works out.
| @ghier How are they fighting words? I said "I've noticed ALOT of reasons people have stated in other discussions have ended up being plot points they simply didn't understand." I didn't say EVERY person. It's true based on the conversations I have had about it. Plenty of those people misunderstood certain plot points and after discussing it, changed their minds about disliking it. There were also plenty who did understand but just didn't like it. Nowhere did I say they didn't exist, it just wasn't relevant to the question I was asking. I've also heard some very good reasons against it aswell. Some I even agreed with. Even in my original post I stated I have my own gripes about it. So why are you acting as if I personally attacked you? I have never spoken to you in my life. My comment was factual based on all the conversations I've had about it. Also, no, I will not be explaining the entire plot of Attack on Titan for you haha. If you have a specific thing you'd like to discuss about it though, I would be more than happy to. |
Dec 17, 1:50 AM
#53
Reply to itsrj20
DigitalParadox said:
@itsrj20 Yeah I apologise that it got unnecessarily heated. I was hoping to avoid that by addressing it in the original post before the fact but I suppose that is my mistake for expecting better from random people on the internet.
What I've come to realise through your very fact based and succinct explanation is that 99% of us seem to be on the exact same page as to how it works and have simply been arguing over what constitutes the term "time travel". My only argument against what you said would be the only way the time travel exists in the show is indeed through the introduction of a new power (the Paths linking all Subjects of Ymir through time) in the anime. Without it, the memories and control are not possible. But like I said, that just seems to be semantics over the terms used since we appear to be on the same page with how it actually functions. I feel if the other guy was less defensive and had attempted to explain as eloquently as yourself, we probably also would have been in agreement.
I appreciate the time you took to break it down.
@itsrj20 Yeah I apologise that it got unnecessarily heated. I was hoping to avoid that by addressing it in the original post before the fact but I suppose that is my mistake for expecting better from random people on the internet.
What I've come to realise through your very fact based and succinct explanation is that 99% of us seem to be on the exact same page as to how it works and have simply been arguing over what constitutes the term "time travel". My only argument against what you said would be the only way the time travel exists in the show is indeed through the introduction of a new power (the Paths linking all Subjects of Ymir through time) in the anime. Without it, the memories and control are not possible. But like I said, that just seems to be semantics over the terms used since we appear to be on the same page with how it actually functions. I feel if the other guy was less defensive and had attempted to explain as eloquently as yourself, we probably also would have been in agreement.
I appreciate the time you took to break it down.
Yes, that argument is valid, and you’re right about how it’s handled in universe. However, it’s still irrelevant to whether it counts as time travel, which was the main issue in the discussion. Almost all time travel in fiction requires a mechanism. I won’t list too many examples to avoid spoilers, but for instance, a device in Steins;Gate, time manipulating abilities in the Fate series, mind/consciousness based time travel in Erased (Revival), or AoT’s mechanism being Paths. All of these use different mechanisms to achieve time travel.
The presence of a mechanism does not disqualify something from being time travel. Paths are simply the in universe explanation, but the resulting backward information flow still fits a fixed timeline causal loop model. Although it’s implemented through an in universe power system, the mechanism functions as information based time travel.
| @itsrj20 Yeah that makes a lot of sense. After reading your explanation I'm willing to concede that I was wrong in saying time travel didn't exist in the show. I still think I completely understand how it was implemented but denying it was time travel seems to have been incorrect. You explained your point very well. |
Dec 17, 4:56 PM
#54
Reply to Irshiki
ktg said:
@CipherKen I address this separately, because you are not lying, so I can keep this thread clean.
I had a previous comment where I explained this, here's the quote:
That's correct, but previously he was portrayed as a smart, cautious man. So accepted Eren's ideas, or I assume Eren proposed them and not Zeke, was a stupid thing to do.
He should have forced a contact when he met Eren in Marley, so in case Eren was "truly" bad, not brainwashed and Zeke couldn't control the founding titan, he had a chance to stop him because his "allies" were in Marley.
Yes, I understood, my point is that even if at that point technologically they are on the same level as the Paradis Island, they will still advance faster, so there's no "real peace", because it takes a year and they are already ahead again, theoretically.
So there's no way to have 2 civilization with the same amount of resources, knowledge and technology.
Also, as far as I know, the 20% that Eren left behind is still significantly more than what Paradis' population was, at least based on the estimations. Like on Paradis we have couple million people at best, while on the whole planet hundred millions. So a conservative estimation would be that 500 million people lived on the whole planet and 20% of that is 100 million. Compared to Paradis' couple millions, that's a huge difference.
Like if they wanted to punish Paradis Island, they could have. They even lost their walls, so they had no chance to defend themselves.
@CipherKen I address this separately, because you are not lying, so I can keep this thread clean.
CipherKen said:
Was there a specific thing you thought Zeke was stupid to do?
Was there a specific thing you thought Zeke was stupid to do?
I had a previous comment where I explained this, here's the quote:
ktg said:
- So I assume that you agree that Zeke was portrayed as a smart person, so I won't mention scenes to prove that. Zeke assumed that when Eren and he touch each other, he would be in control. This was risky and stupid, because there was no proof of that. From his POV, it would have been better to - even forcefully - touch Eren in Marly (we had a flashback when they first time met in Marley), and if it turns out that he cannot control the founding titan, he still could have used the Marley's army to stop Eren. Eren would have been alone without backup and Zeke could have lied how he accidentally ran into Eren and wasn't plotting something.
Even if we assume that Zeke wanted to make sure that the Rumbling works, so wanted to have a mini Rumbling. He could have tried that when he landed with Eren in that aircraft on Paradis. They were close and there was no reason to wait. Paradis' forces weren't even smart enough to keep them in separate rooms.
The reason why I mentioned that they should have tried at that point is because they waited, Eren got beheaded, so "almost" failed to execute their plan. And if you think about it, they didn't do anything during that time. Zeke was sitting in a forest and Eren was sitting in a cell. So by waiting, they simply risked their plan, because Marley needed some time for plot reasons, while logically this makes no sense.
(Also, if we accept my previous point to be a plot hole, then they should have failed factually.)
- So I assume that you agree that Zeke was portrayed as a smart person, so I won't mention scenes to prove that. Zeke assumed that when Eren and he touch each other, he would be in control. This was risky and stupid, because there was no proof of that. From his POV, it would have been better to - even forcefully - touch Eren in Marly (we had a flashback when they first time met in Marley), and if it turns out that he cannot control the founding titan, he still could have used the Marley's army to stop Eren. Eren would have been alone without backup and Zeke could have lied how he accidentally ran into Eren and wasn't plotting something.
Even if we assume that Zeke wanted to make sure that the Rumbling works, so wanted to have a mini Rumbling. He could have tried that when he landed with Eren in that aircraft on Paradis. They were close and there was no reason to wait. Paradis' forces weren't even smart enough to keep them in separate rooms.
The reason why I mentioned that they should have tried at that point is because they waited, Eren got beheaded, so "almost" failed to execute their plan. And if you think about it, they didn't do anything during that time. Zeke was sitting in a forest and Eren was sitting in a cell. So by waiting, they simply risked their plan, because Marley needed some time for plot reasons, while logically this makes no sense.
(Also, if we accept my previous point to be a plot hole, then they should have failed factually.)
CipherKen said:
Remember, Zeke didn't know the founder's true powers
Remember, Zeke didn't know the founder's true powers
That's correct, but previously he was portrayed as a smart, cautious man. So accepted Eren's ideas, or I assume Eren proposed them and not Zeke, was a stupid thing to do.
He should have forced a contact when he met Eren in Marley, so in case Eren was "truly" bad, not brainwashed and Zeke couldn't control the founding titan, he had a chance to stop him because his "allies" were in Marley.
CipherKen said:
Think of it as a severe upset in power scales, the rumbling wiped everything out, people, trees, houses, establishments, military bases.. etc, so you don't have the same resources, material, or manpower anymore, even if they know what to invent, people would be too busy surviving and rebuilding instead of waging a war against a nation that wasn't affected.
Think of it as a severe upset in power scales, the rumbling wiped everything out, people, trees, houses, establishments, military bases.. etc, so you don't have the same resources, material, or manpower anymore, even if they know what to invent, people would be too busy surviving and rebuilding instead of waging a war against a nation that wasn't affected.
Yes, I understood, my point is that even if at that point technologically they are on the same level as the Paradis Island, they will still advance faster, so there's no "real peace", because it takes a year and they are already ahead again, theoretically.
So there's no way to have 2 civilization with the same amount of resources, knowledge and technology.
Also, as far as I know, the 20% that Eren left behind is still significantly more than what Paradis' population was, at least based on the estimations. Like on Paradis we have couple million people at best, while on the whole planet hundred millions. So a conservative estimation would be that 500 million people lived on the whole planet and 20% of that is 100 million. Compared to Paradis' couple millions, that's a huge difference.
Like if they wanted to punish Paradis Island, they could have. They even lost their walls, so they had no chance to defend themselves.
You're the only one stating that a mental journey is a time traveler. So, even before Eren, the Owl did a time travel. Something that can be explained by their power, looking into other users memories, become time travel. Something so easy, people able to look at each other and interact because they have the same power to look into users memories become time travel. What about this, when you remember what you ate yesterday, is that time travel too? When you ask your friends what they did yesterday, is that time travel too?
Fixed timeline doesn't mean everything go according to Eren. Fixed timeline mean that there are no changes in the past. Eren perverting Grisha has always happend, it's not something that happening as the first time when you see it during the story, it already happend, that's what fixed timeline means. Even something you see as a plot twist, some game changing moment, has already happend and that's not because I'm inventing it, but because the story is written that way.
And yes, your point was trying to convince me that Eren changed anything since you've tried to use this to prove me wrong.
Irshiki said: You're the only one stating that a mental journey is a time traveler. So, even before Eren, the Owl did a time travel. Something that can be explained by their power, looking into other users memories, become time travel. That does not explain how different users manipulated each other. Someone showed Owl a memory about Grisha that made him say that "if you don't have a family, then you will repeat the same cycle" or something like that. So we can clearly see that your interpretation DOES NOT WORK. Irshiki said: Something so easy, people able to look at each other and interact because they have the same power to look into users memories become time travel. That's time travel by definition. Your interaction with that other person is not a memory. That's something that you actively "create". Irshiki said: What about this, when you remember what you ate yesterday, is that time travel too? When you ask your friends what they did yesterday, is that time travel too? Well, if I can have a conversation with my past self and my past self can lie about what I ate, then yes, because that lie is not a memory. It's the opposite actually, that lie blocks me to access my real memories. So when someone told Owl that Grisha had to have a family inside the wall, otherwise history would repeat itself, then someone lied about future memories. In fixed timeline you don't have alternative futures, so no matter what Grisha would have done, there's no memory of the future where he does no have kids inside the wall AND history repeats itself. Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean everything go according to Eren. Fixed timeline mean that there are no changes in the past. Incorrect, it means that there's no change in past AND FUTURE EVENTS. You can think differently, you can change someone's thinking, but the events are the same. Irshiki said: Eren perverting Grisha has always happend, it's not something that happening as the first time when you see it during the story, it already happend, that's what fixed timeline means. Omg, either you can't read or you are too lazy to open a fkn link. No, that's not what it means. Fixed timeline means that the events do not change. So even if Eren didn't manipulate Grisha, Grisha would have made the same decision. And that's what happened, that's how in fixed timeline no matter what you do, the outcome would be the same. So Eren's manipulation was pointless. (Also, your phrasing is pretty bad here. You cannot describe accurate what you want. I can only guess it because your statement is so stupid.) Irshiki said: And yes, your point was trying to convince me that Eren changed anything since you've tried to use this to prove me wrong. So you can't read. Thanks for answering my question. No, I've never said or implied that Eren changed anything. To prove that this is time travel I've only used what Owl said to Grisha and what the implications are in that case. Because Owl mentioned that what would happen if Grisha didn't have kids, it implies that someone showed him a "memory" where Grisha doesn't have kids and what would happen, but in fixed timeline that's impossible, because there are no alternative timeline where Grisha doesn't have kids. So someone actively manipulated Owl, instead of letting Owl see that person's memories. The clues that Isayama hinted pre-timeskip, all points to a dynamic timeline, while the rules or reveal post-timeskip clearly implies that this is a fixed timeline. That's why the time travel also introduces plot holes. |
Dec 17, 5:02 PM
#55
Reply to DigitalParadox
@itsrj20 Yeah I apologise that it got unnecessarily heated. I was hoping to avoid that by addressing it in the original post before the fact but I suppose that is my mistake for expecting better from random people on the internet.
What I've come to realise through your very fact based and succinct explanation is that 99% of us seem to be on the exact same page as to how it works and have simply been arguing over what constitutes the term "time travel". My only argument against what you said would be the only way the time travel exists in the show is indeed through the introduction of a new power (the Paths linking all Subjects of Ymir through time) in the anime. Without it, the memories and control are not possible. But like I said, that just seems to be semantics over the terms used since we appear to be on the same page with how it actually functions. I feel if the other guy was less defensive and had attempted to explain as eloquently as yourself, we probably also would have been in agreement.
I appreciate the time you took to break it down.
What I've come to realise through your very fact based and succinct explanation is that 99% of us seem to be on the exact same page as to how it works and have simply been arguing over what constitutes the term "time travel". My only argument against what you said would be the only way the time travel exists in the show is indeed through the introduction of a new power (the Paths linking all Subjects of Ymir through time) in the anime. Without it, the memories and control are not possible. But like I said, that just seems to be semantics over the terms used since we appear to be on the same page with how it actually functions. I feel if the other guy was less defensive and had attempted to explain as eloquently as yourself, we probably also would have been in agreement.
I appreciate the time you took to break it down.
DigitalParadox said: I feel if the other guy was less defensive and had attempted to explain as eloquently as yourself, we probably also would have been in agreement. If this is a reference to me, then stfu. I've made a pretty clear and detailed explanation about my 2 main issues where I clearly stated that I purposely do not elaborate on the time travel aspect because that confuses people. And you entirely ignored that comment of mine. But you started reacting to my comments where I defended myself against the other person called me illiterate. Somehow you didn't care about him attacking others, but only me defending myself... |
ktgDec 17, 5:08 PM
Dec 17, 11:15 PM
#56
ktg said: Irshiki said: You're the only one stating that a mental journey is a time traveler. So, even before Eren, the Owl did a time travel. Something that can be explained by their power, looking into other users memories, become time travel. That does not explain how different users manipulated each other. Someone showed Owl a memory about Grisha that made him say that "if you don't have a family, then you will repeat the same cycle" or something like that. So we can clearly see that your interpretation DOES NOT WORK. Irshiki said: Something so easy, people able to look at each other and interact because they have the same power to look into users memories become time travel. That's time travel by definition. Your interaction with that other person is not a memory. That's something that you actively "create". Irshiki said: What about this, when you remember what you ate yesterday, is that time travel too? When you ask your friends what they did yesterday, is that time travel too? Well, if I can have a conversation with my past self and my past self can lie about what I ate, then yes, because that lie is not a memory. It's the opposite actually, that lie blocks me to access my real memories. So when someone told Owl that Grisha had to have a family inside the wall, otherwise history would repeat itself, then someone lied about future memories. In fixed timeline you don't have alternative futures, so no matter what Grisha would have done, there's no memory of the future where he does no have kids inside the wall AND history repeats itself. Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean everything go according to Eren. Fixed timeline mean that there are no changes in the past. Incorrect, it means that there's no change in past AND FUTURE EVENTS. You can think differently, you can change someone's thinking, but the events are the same. Irshiki said: Eren perverting Grisha has always happend, it's not something that happening as the first time when you see it during the story, it already happend, that's what fixed timeline means. Omg, either you can't read or you are too lazy to open a fkn link. No, that's not what it means. Fixed timeline means that the events do not change. So even if Eren didn't manipulate Grisha, Grisha would have made the same decision. And that's what happened, that's how in fixed timeline no matter what you do, the outcome would be the same. So Eren's manipulation was pointless. (Also, your phrasing is pretty bad here. You cannot describe accurate what you want. I can only guess it because your statement is so stupid.) Irshiki said: And yes, your point was trying to convince me that Eren changed anything since you've tried to use this to prove me wrong. So you can't read. Thanks for answering my question. No, I've never said or implied that Eren changed anything. To prove that this is time travel I've only used what Owl said to Grisha and what the implications are in that case. Because Owl mentioned that what would happen if Grisha didn't have kids, it implies that someone showed him a "memory" where Grisha doesn't have kids and what would happen, but in fixed timeline that's impossible, because there are no alternative timeline where Grisha doesn't have kids. So someone actively manipulated Owl, instead of letting Owl see that person's memories. The clues that Isayama hinted pre-timeskip, all points to a dynamic timeline, while the rules or reveal post-timeskip clearly implies that this is a fixed timeline. That's why the time travel also introduces plot holes. Dude. You're making the big voice only not to admit simple things. A time travel is a journey through time, not through memories... otherwise, it would be called memory travel, what do you think? Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. What you described it's not a fixed timeline. In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. You don't get what I'm saying, because you think that the scene of Eren talking to Grisha and perverting his mind is happening for the first time and is something Eren does out of his will. It is not. Everything that happen is part of a fixed timeline. Eren talking to Grisha is a plot twist only the moment it is shown in the story, but it already happend. It is simple. Following your thinking, a paradox would be created. If Eren didn't convince Grisha to kill the royal family and getting eaten, how would Eren have the Attack Titan and Founding Titan? He would be getting them the moment he convince Grisha through memories, but he couldn't do that without the Attack Titan and Founding Titan. That's what a fixed timeline is. And please, do not speak badly of the way I speak. I may not be english native speaker, but I know how to talk. Don't mistake your inability to understand simple reasoning for the way I write and speak. |
Dec 19, 6:11 PM
#57
Irshiki said: ktg said: @Irshiki No, that's your misinterpretation of what time travel means. If memories travel through time then only the "receiver" is able to "see" them, who is Grisha. Irshiki said: The fact Eren can change the past doesn't exist as well If you can't read, don't reply. No one claimed that Eren changed the past. He didn't. It is a fixed timeline, that's how the time travel paradoxes were solved here. But just because the same things happened at the end, it's still time travel. I highly recommend this, because it explains how the time travel works in SnK: https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/sgg9au/if_you_watched_the_new_episode_and_need_an/#lightbox Irshiki said: Eren already changed the story, so there's no past deformation, it was already meant to go that way Incorrect. The same things happened, but Eren did not change the history. You cannot change the history in a fixed timeline. In that link, you will find an example with Hitler. You travel back in time, replace baby Hitler with a different baby, e.g. orphan to avoid WW2, but that baby grows up to be Hitler and he does the same things. You traveled back time, that's objectively true, but you couldn't change anything. You're the one who doesn't know what time travels are if you think that a mental journey throughout memories is a time travel. The part about the fixed timeline is exactly what you don't get. You fill your mouth with these terms, yet it looks like is too difficult for you to get that inside this fixed timeline is already written that Grisha followed Eren instructions. The story has already been this since the beginning, otherwise, things like Grisha taking on the royal family or being eaten by Eren would have never happend. Bruh eren time travelled with his mind and went in the past and only the former user of the titan could see eren(memory time travel) if someone can affect the past by going to the past one way or another it is time travel... Have you watched steins;gate? It is a time travel anime that focus on mental time travel and electronic time travel.. It happened because it already happened in the past yes because eren made it happen at that moment. If he would have decided not to do this he would have changed the past.. Time travel can happen in many ways. |
Dec 19, 6:18 PM
#58
Irshiki said: ktg said: Irshiki said: You're the only one stating that a mental journey is a time traveler. So, even before Eren, the Owl did a time travel. Something that can be explained by their power, looking into other users memories, become time travel. That does not explain how different users manipulated each other. Someone showed Owl a memory about Grisha that made him say that "if you don't have a family, then you will repeat the same cycle" or something like that. So we can clearly see that your interpretation DOES NOT WORK. Irshiki said: Something so easy, people able to look at each other and interact because they have the same power to look into users memories become time travel. That's time travel by definition. Your interaction with that other person is not a memory. That's something that you actively "create". Irshiki said: What about this, when you remember what you ate yesterday, is that time travel too? When you ask your friends what they did yesterday, is that time travel too? Well, if I can have a conversation with my past self and my past self can lie about what I ate, then yes, because that lie is not a memory. It's the opposite actually, that lie blocks me to access my real memories. So when someone told Owl that Grisha had to have a family inside the wall, otherwise history would repeat itself, then someone lied about future memories. In fixed timeline you don't have alternative futures, so no matter what Grisha would have done, there's no memory of the future where he does no have kids inside the wall AND history repeats itself. Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean everything go according to Eren. Fixed timeline mean that there are no changes in the past. Incorrect, it means that there's no change in past AND FUTURE EVENTS. You can think differently, you can change someone's thinking, but the events are the same. Irshiki said: Eren perverting Grisha has always happend, it's not something that happening as the first time when you see it during the story, it already happend, that's what fixed timeline means. Omg, either you can't read or you are too lazy to open a fkn link. No, that's not what it means. Fixed timeline means that the events do not change. So even if Eren didn't manipulate Grisha, Grisha would have made the same decision. And that's what happened, that's how in fixed timeline no matter what you do, the outcome would be the same. So Eren's manipulation was pointless. (Also, your phrasing is pretty bad here. You cannot describe accurate what you want. I can only guess it because your statement is so stupid.) Irshiki said: And yes, your point was trying to convince me that Eren changed anything since you've tried to use this to prove me wrong. So you can't read. Thanks for answering my question. No, I've never said or implied that Eren changed anything. To prove that this is time travel I've only used what Owl said to Grisha and what the implications are in that case. Because Owl mentioned that what would happen if Grisha didn't have kids, it implies that someone showed him a "memory" where Grisha doesn't have kids and what would happen, but in fixed timeline that's impossible, because there are no alternative timeline where Grisha doesn't have kids. So someone actively manipulated Owl, instead of letting Owl see that person's memories. The clues that Isayama hinted pre-timeskip, all points to a dynamic timeline, while the rules or reveal post-timeskip clearly implies that this is a fixed timeline. That's why the time travel also introduces plot holes. Dude. You're making the big voice only not to admit simple things. A time travel is a journey through time, not through memories... otherwise, it would be called memory travel, what do you think? Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. What you described it's not a fixed timeline. In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. You don't get what I'm saying, because you think that the scene of Eren talking to Grisha and perverting his mind is happening for the first time and is something Eren does out of his will. It is not. Everything that happen is part of a fixed timeline. Eren talking to Grisha is a plot twist only the moment it is shown in the story, but it already happend. It is simple. Following your thinking, a paradox would be created. If Eren didn't convince Grisha to kill the royal family and getting eaten, how would Eren have the Attack Titan and Founding Titan? He would be getting them the moment he convince Grisha through memories, but he couldn't do that without the Attack Titan and Founding Titan. That's what a fixed timeline is. And please, do not speak badly of the way I speak. I may not be english native speaker, but I know how to talk. Don't mistake your inability to understand simple reasoning for the way I write and speak. This version of time travel it’s simple to understand: Mental Time Travel the brain's ability(in this case the titan’s ability) to mentally project oneself to the past or future. While not physical time travel. |
TougSDec 19, 6:41 PM
Dec 19, 8:02 PM
#59
Reply to Irshiki
ktg said:
That does not explain how different users manipulated each other.
Someone showed Owl a memory about Grisha that made him say that "if you don't have a family, then you will repeat the same cycle" or something like that. So we can clearly see that your interpretation DOES NOT WORK.
That's time travel by definition. Your interaction with that other person is not a memory. That's something that you actively "create".
Well, if I can have a conversation with my past self and my past self can lie about what I ate, then yes, because that lie is not a memory. It's the opposite actually, that lie blocks me to access my real memories.
So when someone told Owl that Grisha had to have a family inside the wall, otherwise history would repeat itself, then someone lied about future memories.
In fixed timeline you don't have alternative futures, so no matter what Grisha would have done, there's no memory of the future where he does no have kids inside the wall AND history repeats itself.
Incorrect, it means that there's no change in past AND FUTURE EVENTS. You can think differently, you can change someone's thinking, but the events are the same.
Omg, either you can't read or you are too lazy to open a fkn link. No, that's not what it means.
Fixed timeline means that the events do not change. So even if Eren didn't manipulate Grisha, Grisha would have made the same decision. And that's what happened, that's how in fixed timeline no matter what you do, the outcome would be the same. So Eren's manipulation was pointless.
(Also, your phrasing is pretty bad here. You cannot describe accurate what you want. I can only guess it because your statement is so stupid.)
So you can't read. Thanks for answering my question.
No, I've never said or implied that Eren changed anything.
To prove that this is time travel I've only used what Owl said to Grisha and what the implications are in that case. Because Owl mentioned that what would happen if Grisha didn't have kids, it implies that someone showed him a "memory" where Grisha doesn't have kids and what would happen, but in fixed timeline that's impossible, because there are no alternative timeline where Grisha doesn't have kids. So someone actively manipulated Owl, instead of letting Owl see that person's memories.
The clues that Isayama hinted pre-timeskip, all points to a dynamic timeline, while the rules or reveal post-timeskip clearly implies that this is a fixed timeline. That's why the time travel also introduces plot holes.
Irshiki said:
You're the only one stating that a mental journey is a time traveler. So, even before Eren, the Owl did a time travel. Something that can be explained by their power, looking into other users memories, become time travel.
You're the only one stating that a mental journey is a time traveler. So, even before Eren, the Owl did a time travel. Something that can be explained by their power, looking into other users memories, become time travel.
That does not explain how different users manipulated each other.
Someone showed Owl a memory about Grisha that made him say that "if you don't have a family, then you will repeat the same cycle" or something like that. So we can clearly see that your interpretation DOES NOT WORK.
Irshiki said:
Something so easy, people able to look at each other and interact because they have the same power to look into users memories become time travel.
Something so easy, people able to look at each other and interact because they have the same power to look into users memories become time travel.
That's time travel by definition. Your interaction with that other person is not a memory. That's something that you actively "create".
Irshiki said:
What about this, when you remember what you ate yesterday, is that time travel too? When you ask your friends what they did yesterday, is that time travel too?
What about this, when you remember what you ate yesterday, is that time travel too? When you ask your friends what they did yesterday, is that time travel too?
Well, if I can have a conversation with my past self and my past self can lie about what I ate, then yes, because that lie is not a memory. It's the opposite actually, that lie blocks me to access my real memories.
So when someone told Owl that Grisha had to have a family inside the wall, otherwise history would repeat itself, then someone lied about future memories.
In fixed timeline you don't have alternative futures, so no matter what Grisha would have done, there's no memory of the future where he does no have kids inside the wall AND history repeats itself.
Irshiki said:
Fixed timeline doesn't mean everything go according to Eren. Fixed timeline mean that there are no changes in the past.
Fixed timeline doesn't mean everything go according to Eren. Fixed timeline mean that there are no changes in the past.
Incorrect, it means that there's no change in past AND FUTURE EVENTS. You can think differently, you can change someone's thinking, but the events are the same.
Irshiki said:
Eren perverting Grisha has always happend, it's not something that happening as the first time when you see it during the story, it already happend, that's what fixed timeline means.
Eren perverting Grisha has always happend, it's not something that happening as the first time when you see it during the story, it already happend, that's what fixed timeline means.
Omg, either you can't read or you are too lazy to open a fkn link. No, that's not what it means.
Fixed timeline means that the events do not change. So even if Eren didn't manipulate Grisha, Grisha would have made the same decision. And that's what happened, that's how in fixed timeline no matter what you do, the outcome would be the same. So Eren's manipulation was pointless.
(Also, your phrasing is pretty bad here. You cannot describe accurate what you want. I can only guess it because your statement is so stupid.)
Irshiki said:
And yes, your point was trying to convince me that Eren changed anything since you've tried to use this to prove me wrong.
And yes, your point was trying to convince me that Eren changed anything since you've tried to use this to prove me wrong.
So you can't read. Thanks for answering my question.
No, I've never said or implied that Eren changed anything.
To prove that this is time travel I've only used what Owl said to Grisha and what the implications are in that case. Because Owl mentioned that what would happen if Grisha didn't have kids, it implies that someone showed him a "memory" where Grisha doesn't have kids and what would happen, but in fixed timeline that's impossible, because there are no alternative timeline where Grisha doesn't have kids. So someone actively manipulated Owl, instead of letting Owl see that person's memories.
The clues that Isayama hinted pre-timeskip, all points to a dynamic timeline, while the rules or reveal post-timeskip clearly implies that this is a fixed timeline. That's why the time travel also introduces plot holes.
Dude. You're making the big voice only not to admit simple things. A time travel is a journey through time, not through memories... otherwise, it would be called memory travel, what do you think? Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. What you described it's not a fixed timeline. In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. You don't get what I'm saying, because you think that the scene of Eren talking to Grisha and perverting his mind is happening for the first time and is something Eren does out of his will. It is not. Everything that happen is part of a fixed timeline. Eren talking to Grisha is a plot twist only the moment it is shown in the story, but it already happend. It is simple. Following your thinking, a paradox would be created. If Eren didn't convince Grisha to kill the royal family and getting eaten, how would Eren have the Attack Titan and Founding Titan? He would be getting them the moment he convince Grisha through memories, but he couldn't do that without the Attack Titan and Founding Titan. That's what a fixed timeline is.
And please, do not speak badly of the way I speak. I may not be english native speaker, but I know how to talk. Don't mistake your inability to understand simple reasoning for the way I write and speak.
| @Irshiki Hm, did you ignore my point on purpose or you just can't comprehend what I said? You repeated the same bullshit that I've refuted without actually addressing my point. Ok, let's go through your bs point again. Now one by one. Irshiki said: A time travel is a journey through time, not through memories If it's about a memory that is from a different age than you current lifespan, then you as an individual or the memory itself travels in time, so you could recall it, especially when it comes from the future, so technically it shouldn't have happened. That's why this a bad argument. Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. What you described it's not a fixed timeline. In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. These sentences contradict each other. First you stated that "Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again", then you state that "In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times". Irshiki said: You don't get what I'm saying, because you think that the scene of Eren talking to Grisha and perverting his mind is happening for the first time and is something Eren does out of his will. It is not It is, because that's how fixed timeline works, at least if you don't have a plot hole. I can accept that this is how I should interpret it, but then we are talking about the bootstrap paradox, which is a plot hole in itself. You would actually create a 2nd plot hole. Because so far none of your arguments actually addressed what I describe as a plot hole, because these are completely irrelevant. So even if I use your interpretation, it's still a plot hole. My interpretation - how generally fixed timeline works - would solve this issue and we have not problem with the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: Eren talking to Grisha is a plot twist only the moment it is shown in the story, but it already happend. It is simple Yes, then it's an additional plot hole to my already existing plot hole. So you created a new plot hole. Good job. You managed to further damage this series reputation. Irshiki said: Following your thinking, a paradox would be created. If Eren didn't convince Grisha to kill the royal family and getting eaten, how would Eren have the Attack Titan and Founding Titan? It's the opposite. My thinking is that in the previous loop Grisha made that decision by himself without Eren. So we would end up in the same situation, but because Eren was inpatient, he quickly tried to manipulate Grisha. Your interpretation is the one that create paradox, which called the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: He would be getting them the moment he convince Grisha through memories, but he couldn't do that without the Attack Titan and Founding Titan. That's what a fixed timeline is. No, that's the bootstrap paradox. In fixed timeline, Grisha even without Eren would make the same decision. That's what the fixed timeline means. In fixed timeline no matter what you do to change the future, it wouldn't change, but you could make a different decision in each loop about how to change the future. That's why I linked that description where it explains it through in example. You go back in time and you replace the REAL Adolf Hitler baby with an orphan baby to avoid the 2nd WW, but in a fixed timeline even if that baby is not the REAL Hitler, but an orphan, that orphan would grow up to be Hitler and will act as the REAL Hitler. Irshiki said: And please, do not speak badly of the way I speak. I may not be english native speaker, but I know how to talk. Don't mistake your inability to understand simple reasoning for the way I write and speak. Not really. You wrote this: Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. This actually inline with my argument. Initially Grisha made that decision alone without Eren's manipulation, but in the next loop, Eren manipulated Grisha. So we clearly have different actions like you wrote it. But then you wrote this: Irshiki said: In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. Which contradicts your previous sentence and does not support what I said. This is why it's hard to follow what your points are. And again, you are talking about a completely different things. This is not the part that I mentioned as having plot holes, so we are actually arguing about an irrelevant detail. Secondly, you ignored my comment, so either did that on purpose or you couldn't comprehend my argument. If it's the former, you are trolling, if it's the latter, then the problem is with your English. |
Yesterday, 12:15 AM
#60
ktg said: @Irshiki Hm, did you ignore my point on purpose or you just can't comprehend what I said? You repeated the same bullshit that I've refuted without actually addressing my point. Ok, let's go through your bs point again. Now one by one. Irshiki said: A time travel is a journey through time, not through memories If it's about a memory that is from a different age than you current lifespan, then you as an individual or the memory itself travels in time, so you could recall it, especially when it comes from the future, so technically it shouldn't have happened. That's why this a bad argument. Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. What you described it's not a fixed timeline. In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. These sentences contradict each other. First you stated that "Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again", then you state that "In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times". Irshiki said: You don't get what I'm saying, because you think that the scene of Eren talking to Grisha and perverting his mind is happening for the first time and is something Eren does out of his will. It is not It is, because that's how fixed timeline works, at least if you don't have a plot hole. I can accept that this is how I should interpret it, but then we are talking about the bootstrap paradox, which is a plot hole in itself. You would actually create a 2nd plot hole. Because so far none of your arguments actually addressed what I describe as a plot hole, because these are completely irrelevant. So even if I use your interpretation, it's still a plot hole. My interpretation - how generally fixed timeline works - would solve this issue and we have not problem with the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: Eren talking to Grisha is a plot twist only the moment it is shown in the story, but it already happend. It is simple Yes, then it's an additional plot hole to my already existing plot hole. So you created a new plot hole. Good job. You managed to further damage this series reputation. Irshiki said: Following your thinking, a paradox would be created. If Eren didn't convince Grisha to kill the royal family and getting eaten, how would Eren have the Attack Titan and Founding Titan? It's the opposite. My thinking is that in the previous loop Grisha made that decision by himself without Eren. So we would end up in the same situation, but because Eren was inpatient, he quickly tried to manipulate Grisha. Your interpretation is the one that create paradox, which called the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: He would be getting them the moment he convince Grisha through memories, but he couldn't do that without the Attack Titan and Founding Titan. That's what a fixed timeline is. No, that's the bootstrap paradox. In fixed timeline, Grisha even without Eren would make the same decision. That's what the fixed timeline means. In fixed timeline no matter what you do to change the future, it wouldn't change, but you could make a different decision in each loop about how to change the future. That's why I linked that description where it explains it through in example. You go back in time and you replace the REAL Adolf Hitler baby with an orphan baby to avoid the 2nd WW, but in a fixed timeline even if that baby is not the REAL Hitler, but an orphan, that orphan would grow up to be Hitler and will act as the REAL Hitler. Irshiki said: And please, do not speak badly of the way I speak. I may not be english native speaker, but I know how to talk. Don't mistake your inability to understand simple reasoning for the way I write and speak. Not really. You wrote this: Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. This actually inline with my argument. Initially Grisha made that decision alone without Eren's manipulation, but in the next loop, Eren manipulated Grisha. So we clearly have different actions like you wrote it. But then you wrote this: Irshiki said: In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. Which contradicts your previous sentence and does not support what I said. This is why it's hard to follow what your points are. And again, you are talking about a completely different things. This is not the part that I mentioned as having plot holes, so we are actually arguing about an irrelevant detail. Secondly, you ignored my comment, so either did that on purpose or you couldn't comprehend my argument. If it's the former, you are trolling, if it's the latter, then the problem is with your English. Dude. You're the one who doesn't get it. Stop talking about changing the future or changing the past. There is nothing to change. This is a fixed timeline. The events are fixed. They already happend. Eren did not changed the past with the power of Attack Titan, nor Mikasa and Armin changed the future by killing Eren. There are no loops, there are no repeating loops, there are no loops in succession. There are no paradoxes. You are inventing this loop story only because, and I don't why, it's difficult for you to understand that a fixed timeline remain the same fixed timeline even with Eren manipulating Grisha. I don't know why saying characters doesn't make the same decision all over again but the events always happen the same way should be a contradiction. It really explain themselves if you read them. The first is about characters who make decisions, the latter is about the events. I'll give you a suggestion, try to watch Doctor Who? They talk about it all the time. You know what a contradiction would be? Someone begin to talk about fixed timelines out of the blue, but not really getting what they are, I suppose it's because 'fixed' confuse them, and then, once more out of the blue, that fixed timeline get discarded for a loop followed by another loop? What is that? How would you fit it the next creaky explanation? Oh. I wouldn't know. Oh. And please, tell me, drama queen. What would be the point I didn't answered and ignored? |
Yesterday, 12:49 PM
#61
Reply to Irshiki
ktg said:
@Irshiki Hm, did you ignore my point on purpose or you just can't comprehend what I said?
You repeated the same bullshit that I've refuted without actually addressing my point.
Ok, let's go through your bs point again. Now one by one.
If it's about a memory that is from a different age than you current lifespan, then you as an individual or the memory itself travels in time, so you could recall it, especially when it comes from the future, so technically it shouldn't have happened.
That's why this a bad argument.
These sentences contradict each other. First you stated that "Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again", then you state that "In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times".
It is, because that's how fixed timeline works, at least if you don't have a plot hole.
I can accept that this is how I should interpret it, but then we are talking about the bootstrap paradox, which is a plot hole in itself. You would actually create a 2nd plot hole. Because so far none of your arguments actually addressed what I describe as a plot hole, because these are completely irrelevant.
So even if I use your interpretation, it's still a plot hole. My interpretation - how generally fixed timeline works - would solve this issue and we have not problem with the bootstrap paradox.
Yes, then it's an additional plot hole to my already existing plot hole. So you created a new plot hole. Good job. You managed to further damage this series reputation.
It's the opposite.
My thinking is that in the previous loop Grisha made that decision by himself without Eren. So we would end up in the same situation, but because Eren was inpatient, he quickly tried to manipulate Grisha.
Your interpretation is the one that create paradox, which called the bootstrap paradox.
No, that's the bootstrap paradox.
In fixed timeline, Grisha even without Eren would make the same decision. That's what the fixed timeline means.
In fixed timeline no matter what you do to change the future, it wouldn't change, but you could make a different decision in each loop about how to change the future.
That's why I linked that description where it explains it through in example. You go back in time and you replace the REAL Adolf Hitler baby with an orphan baby to avoid the 2nd WW, but in a fixed timeline even if that baby is not the REAL Hitler, but an orphan, that orphan would grow up to be Hitler and will act as the REAL Hitler.
Not really. You wrote this:
This actually inline with my argument. Initially Grisha made that decision alone without Eren's manipulation, but in the next loop, Eren manipulated Grisha. So we clearly have different actions like you wrote it.
But then you wrote this:
Which contradicts your previous sentence and does not support what I said.
This is why it's hard to follow what your points are.
And again, you are talking about a completely different things. This is not the part that I mentioned as having plot holes, so we are actually arguing about an irrelevant detail.
Secondly, you ignored my comment, so either did that on purpose or you couldn't comprehend my argument. If it's the former, you are trolling, if it's the latter, then the problem is with your English.
@Irshiki Hm, did you ignore my point on purpose or you just can't comprehend what I said?
You repeated the same bullshit that I've refuted without actually addressing my point.
Ok, let's go through your bs point again. Now one by one.
Irshiki said:
A time travel is a journey through time, not through memories
A time travel is a journey through time, not through memories
If it's about a memory that is from a different age than you current lifespan, then you as an individual or the memory itself travels in time, so you could recall it, especially when it comes from the future, so technically it shouldn't have happened.
That's why this a bad argument.
Irshiki said:
Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. What you described it's not a fixed timeline. In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times.
Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. What you described it's not a fixed timeline. In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times.
These sentences contradict each other. First you stated that "Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again", then you state that "In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times".
Irshiki said:
You don't get what I'm saying, because you think that the scene of Eren talking to Grisha and perverting his mind is happening for the first time and is something Eren does out of his will. It is not
You don't get what I'm saying, because you think that the scene of Eren talking to Grisha and perverting his mind is happening for the first time and is something Eren does out of his will. It is not
It is, because that's how fixed timeline works, at least if you don't have a plot hole.
I can accept that this is how I should interpret it, but then we are talking about the bootstrap paradox, which is a plot hole in itself. You would actually create a 2nd plot hole. Because so far none of your arguments actually addressed what I describe as a plot hole, because these are completely irrelevant.
So even if I use your interpretation, it's still a plot hole. My interpretation - how generally fixed timeline works - would solve this issue and we have not problem with the bootstrap paradox.
Irshiki said:
Eren talking to Grisha is a plot twist only the moment it is shown in the story, but it already happend. It is simple
Eren talking to Grisha is a plot twist only the moment it is shown in the story, but it already happend. It is simple
Yes, then it's an additional plot hole to my already existing plot hole. So you created a new plot hole. Good job. You managed to further damage this series reputation.
Irshiki said:
Following your thinking, a paradox would be created. If Eren didn't convince Grisha to kill the royal family and getting eaten, how would Eren have the Attack Titan and Founding Titan?
Following your thinking, a paradox would be created. If Eren didn't convince Grisha to kill the royal family and getting eaten, how would Eren have the Attack Titan and Founding Titan?
It's the opposite.
My thinking is that in the previous loop Grisha made that decision by himself without Eren. So we would end up in the same situation, but because Eren was inpatient, he quickly tried to manipulate Grisha.
Your interpretation is the one that create paradox, which called the bootstrap paradox.
Irshiki said:
He would be getting them the moment he convince Grisha through memories, but he couldn't do that without the Attack Titan and Founding Titan. That's what a fixed timeline is.
He would be getting them the moment he convince Grisha through memories, but he couldn't do that without the Attack Titan and Founding Titan. That's what a fixed timeline is.
No, that's the bootstrap paradox.
In fixed timeline, Grisha even without Eren would make the same decision. That's what the fixed timeline means.
In fixed timeline no matter what you do to change the future, it wouldn't change, but you could make a different decision in each loop about how to change the future.
That's why I linked that description where it explains it through in example. You go back in time and you replace the REAL Adolf Hitler baby with an orphan baby to avoid the 2nd WW, but in a fixed timeline even if that baby is not the REAL Hitler, but an orphan, that orphan would grow up to be Hitler and will act as the REAL Hitler.
Irshiki said:
And please, do not speak badly of the way I speak. I may not be english native speaker, but I know how to talk. Don't mistake your inability to understand simple reasoning for the way I write and speak.
And please, do not speak badly of the way I speak. I may not be english native speaker, but I know how to talk. Don't mistake your inability to understand simple reasoning for the way I write and speak.
Not really. You wrote this:
Irshiki said:
Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again.
Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again.
This actually inline with my argument. Initially Grisha made that decision alone without Eren's manipulation, but in the next loop, Eren manipulated Grisha. So we clearly have different actions like you wrote it.
But then you wrote this:
Irshiki said:
In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times.
In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times.
Which contradicts your previous sentence and does not support what I said.
This is why it's hard to follow what your points are.
And again, you are talking about a completely different things. This is not the part that I mentioned as having plot holes, so we are actually arguing about an irrelevant detail.
Secondly, you ignored my comment, so either did that on purpose or you couldn't comprehend my argument. If it's the former, you are trolling, if it's the latter, then the problem is with your English.
Dude. You're the one who doesn't get it. Stop talking about changing the future or changing the past. There is nothing to change. This is a fixed timeline. The events are fixed. They already happend. Eren did not changed the past with the power of Attack Titan, nor Mikasa and Armin changed the future by killing Eren.
There are no loops, there are no repeating loops, there are no loops in succession. There are no paradoxes. You are inventing this loop story only because, and I don't why, it's difficult for you to understand that a fixed timeline remain the same fixed timeline even with Eren manipulating Grisha.
I don't know why saying characters doesn't make the same decision all over again but the events always happen the same way should be a contradiction. It really explain themselves if you read them. The first is about characters who make decisions, the latter is about the events. I'll give you a suggestion, try to watch Doctor Who? They talk about it all the time. You know what a contradiction would be? Someone begin to talk about fixed timelines out of the blue, but not really getting what they are, I suppose it's because 'fixed' confuse them, and then, once more out of the blue, that fixed timeline get discarded for a loop followed by another loop? What is that? How would you fit it the next creaky explanation? Oh. I wouldn't know.
Oh. And please, tell me, drama queen. What would be the point I didn't answered and ignored?
| @Irshiki Oh my god, you don't know what fixed timeline is... Holy shit, it would take 10 seconds to google it and you failed to do it. Irshiki said: You're the one who doesn't get it. Stop talking about changing the future or changing the past. There is nothing to change. This is a fixed timeline. The events are fixed. They already happend. Eren did not changed the past with the power of Attack Titan, nor Mikasa and Armin changed the future by killing Eren. You don't know what hypotheticals are, it's so sad that you couldn't even finish high school. The person inside a universe like this would go back in time with the assumption that he could change the future. In a scenario like that, he decides to do things differently than before to achieve different outcomes. But because it's a fixed timeline, no matter what he does, even if he does things differently, the outcomes would be the same. That's what fixed timeline is. Irshiki said: There are no loops, there are no repeating loops, there are no loops in succession. There are no paradoxes. You are inventing this loop story only because Honestly, go back to high school to finish it, because it's just insanely pathetic at this point. Time flows in one direction, so you need to arrive to an event that happens before another event. By this simply logic the "first" time Grisha had to make a decision, Eren couldn't manipulate him, because that didn't happen yet. To make it happen, Grisha had to pass the founding titan's power to Eren, but that happened in the future. This creates a paradox, because you don't know where/when the "first" event took place that caused the next one. That's called the bootstrap paradox. This paradox is solved if we assume that when the "first" time we saw Grisha, he made that decision alone without Eren. Irshiki said: I don't why, it's difficult for you to understand that a fixed timeline remain the same fixed timeline even with Eren manipulating Grisha. Go back to school because you can't read. Again, this does not refute me, this is 100% inline with what I said. Yes, the events are the same. Grisha did the same, but we don't have Eren at the first time, then we don't have a serious paradox. Irshiki said: I don't know why saying characters doesn't make the same decision all over again but the events always happen the same way should be a contradiction This is where you should have noticed that you lack the necessary knowledge because you don't understand what I'm talking about and this is why I usually avoid arguing about this, because uneducated people have zero idea about these time travel concepts. To Grisha be manipulated, Eren need to have the founding titan's power. To have the founding titan's power, Grisha had to give it to Eren. To give it to Eren, Grisha had to get it from the royal family. To Grisha get it from the royal family, Grisha had to be manipulated. Etc. This is an infinite loop where you cannot identify the starting point. This is what called bootstrap paradox, because while time is linear, you cannot identify the first event. To solve this paradox in case of a fixed timeline universe, you need to accept that - in this case - Grisha wasn't manipulated at first, but he was second time. Irshiki said: It really explain themselves if you read them. I agree and yet, you still don't know it. You couldn't understand a simply definition about fixed timeline. Irshiki said: I'll give you a suggestion I also give you a suggestion, go to school. You are arguing with an engineer who's job is to know physics and we are arguing about physics. Irshiki said: Oh. And please, tell me, drama queen. What would be the point I didn't answered and ignored? Okay, uneducated kid, I'll tell you that. Owl seeing a future where Grisha doesn't have kids, which could only happen if this universe is not a fixed timeline one. You've never talked about Owl, uneducated little kid. |
Yesterday, 12:56 PM
#62
ktg said: @Irshiki Oh my god, you don't know what fixed timeline is... Holy shit, it would take 10 seconds to google it and you failed to do it. Irshiki said: You're the one who doesn't get it. Stop talking about changing the future or changing the past. There is nothing to change. This is a fixed timeline. The events are fixed. They already happend. Eren did not changed the past with the power of Attack Titan, nor Mikasa and Armin changed the future by killing Eren. You don't know what hypotheticals are, it's so sad that you couldn't even finish high school. The person inside a universe like this would go back in time with the assumption that he could change the future. In a scenario like that, he decides to do things differently than before to achieve different outcomes. But because it's a fixed timeline, no matter what he does, even if he does things differently, the outcomes would be the same. That's what fixed timeline is. Irshiki said: There are no loops, there are no repeating loops, there are no loops in succession. There are no paradoxes. You are inventing this loop story only because Honestly, go back to high school to finish it, because it's just insanely pathetic at this point. Time flows in one direction, so you need to arrive to an event that happens before another event. By this simply logic the "first" time Grisha had to make a decision, Eren couldn't manipulate him, because that didn't happen yet. To make it happen, Grisha had to pass the founding titan's power to Eren, but that happened in the future. This creates a paradox, because you don't know where/when the "first" event took place that caused the next one. That's called the bootstrap paradox. This paradox is solved if we assume that when the "first" time we saw Grisha, he made that decision alone without Eren. Irshiki said: I don't why, it's difficult for you to understand that a fixed timeline remain the same fixed timeline even with Eren manipulating Grisha. Go back to school because you can't read. Again, this does not refute me, this is 100% inline with what I said. Yes, the events are the same. Grisha did the same, but we don't have Eren at the first time, then we don't have a serious paradox. Irshiki said: I don't know why saying characters doesn't make the same decision all over again but the events always happen the same way should be a contradiction This is where you should have noticed that you lack the necessary knowledge because you don't understand what I'm talking about and this is why I usually avoid arguing about this, because uneducated people have zero idea about these time travel concepts. To Grisha be manipulated, Eren need to have the founding titan's power. To have the founding titan's power, Grisha had to give it to Eren. To give it to Eren, Grisha had to get it from the royal family. To Grisha get it from the royal family, Grisha had to be manipulated. Etc. This is an infinite loop where you cannot identify the starting point. This is what called bootstrap paradox, because while time is linear, you cannot identify the first event. To solve this paradox in case of a fixed timeline universe, you need to accept that - in this case - Grisha wasn't manipulated at first, but he was second time. Irshiki said: It really explain themselves if you read them. I agree and yet, you still don't know it. You couldn't understand a simply definition about fixed timeline. Irshiki said: I'll give you a suggestion I also give you a suggestion, go to school. You are arguing with an engineer who's job is to know physics and we are arguing about physics. Irshiki said: Oh. And please, tell me, drama queen. What would be the point I didn't answered and ignored? Okay, uneducated kid, I'll tell you that. Owl seeing a future where Grisha doesn't have kids, which could only happen if this universe is not a fixed timeline one. You've never talked about Owl, uneducated little kid. Stop talking like you know what you're talking about. You don't know ass of what you're talking about. You come up with things you don't know and talk like you have the faintest idea. There is no first time Grisha had to make the decision. That's what a fixed timeline is. Eren has always been there. Grisha always slaughtered those people because Eren told him. Get this. The time hasn't changed. That's what a fixed timeline is. What it is to you? How could both Grisha killing the royal family and Grisha killing them because Eren told him fit the description of fixed timeline. Fixed means the same event happen all the time, not it get changed because, because, because. Fixed. |
Yesterday, 5:02 PM
#63
DigitalParadox said: @ghier How are they fighting words? I said "I've noticed ALOT of reasons people have stated in other discussions have ended up being plot points they simply didn't understand." I didn't say EVERY person. It's true based on the conversations I have had about it. Plenty of those people misunderstood certain plot points and after discussing it, changed their minds about disliking it. There were also plenty who did understand but just didn't like it. Nowhere did I say they didn't exist, it just wasn't relevant to the question I was asking. I've also heard some very good reasons against it aswell. Some I even agreed with. Even in my original post I stated I have my own gripes about it. So why are you acting as if I personally attacked you? I have never spoken to you in my life. My comment was factual based on all the conversations I've had about it. Also, no, I will not be explaining the entire plot of Attack on Titan for you haha. If you have a specific thing you'd like to discuss about it though, I would be more than happy to. I mean you didn’t actually say anything about having gripes with plot holes in your original post. And you also emphasized the ALOT. That whole paragraph is there to downplay opinions that there are plot holes isn’t it? Honestly, it comes across as bait. Just giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you didn’t mean this now (kind of doubting honestly). But saying that people just misunderstood when they called out plot holes - without mentioning how they changed their minds or how you yourself have some gripes (key point) - it comes across as if you’re calling them stupid, or that they’re acting smart picking out plot holes and actually don’t know what they’re talking about … so it’s only natural for people who dislike the plot holes to lash out. Also, you say it isn’t relevant, which means you don’t think concerns about plot holes are valid reasons to not like the show, so what are you on? Honestly, ima call bait. Waste of time. |
10 hours ago
#64
| I personally liked the ending. Even though I can understand the history of oppression, discrimination, and mistreatment that the Eldians went through that made Eren decide on his course of actions, I don't think genocide was the solution. Eren needed to be stopped. I don't think the Eldians nor their enemies are faultless nor is one side a victim over the other. Both sides committed acts of inhumanity. Before Eren's genocide, the Eldians were a threat to humanity at one point. So, it's natural that people would have some fear or hate towards them. But at the same time, I don't agree with the generational hate towards the Eldians over the actions of their ancestors. I think some level of commonground needed to be reached between the Eldians and their enemies. |
10 hours ago
#65
Irshiki said: ktg said: @Irshiki Hm, did you ignore my point on purpose or you just can't comprehend what I said? You repeated the same bullshit that I've refuted without actually addressing my point. Ok, let's go through your bs point again. Now one by one. Irshiki said: A time travel is a journey through time, not through memories If it's about a memory that is from a different age than you current lifespan, then you as an individual or the memory itself travels in time, so you could recall it, especially when it comes from the future, so technically it shouldn't have happened. That's why this a bad argument. Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. What you described it's not a fixed timeline. In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. These sentences contradict each other. First you stated that "Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again", then you state that "In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times". Irshiki said: You don't get what I'm saying, because you think that the scene of Eren talking to Grisha and perverting his mind is happening for the first time and is something Eren does out of his will. It is not It is, because that's how fixed timeline works, at least if you don't have a plot hole. I can accept that this is how I should interpret it, but then we are talking about the bootstrap paradox, which is a plot hole in itself. You would actually create a 2nd plot hole. Because so far none of your arguments actually addressed what I describe as a plot hole, because these are completely irrelevant. So even if I use your interpretation, it's still a plot hole. My interpretation - how generally fixed timeline works - would solve this issue and we have not problem with the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: Eren talking to Grisha is a plot twist only the moment it is shown in the story, but it already happend. It is simple Yes, then it's an additional plot hole to my already existing plot hole. So you created a new plot hole. Good job. You managed to further damage this series reputation. Irshiki said: Following your thinking, a paradox would be created. If Eren didn't convince Grisha to kill the royal family and getting eaten, how would Eren have the Attack Titan and Founding Titan? It's the opposite. My thinking is that in the previous loop Grisha made that decision by himself without Eren. So we would end up in the same situation, but because Eren was inpatient, he quickly tried to manipulate Grisha. Your interpretation is the one that create paradox, which called the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: He would be getting them the moment he convince Grisha through memories, but he couldn't do that without the Attack Titan and Founding Titan. That's what a fixed timeline is. No, that's the bootstrap paradox. In fixed timeline, Grisha even without Eren would make the same decision. That's what the fixed timeline means. In fixed timeline no matter what you do to change the future, it wouldn't change, but you could make a different decision in each loop about how to change the future. That's why I linked that description where it explains it through in example. You go back in time and you replace the REAL Adolf Hitler baby with an orphan baby to avoid the 2nd WW, but in a fixed timeline even if that baby is not the REAL Hitler, but an orphan, that orphan would grow up to be Hitler and will act as the REAL Hitler. Irshiki said: And please, do not speak badly of the way I speak. I may not be english native speaker, but I know how to talk. Don't mistake your inability to understand simple reasoning for the way I write and speak. Not really. You wrote this: Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. This actually inline with my argument. Initially Grisha made that decision alone without Eren's manipulation, but in the next loop, Eren manipulated Grisha. So we clearly have different actions like you wrote it. But then you wrote this: Irshiki said: In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. Which contradicts your previous sentence and does not support what I said. This is why it's hard to follow what your points are. And again, you are talking about a completely different things. This is not the part that I mentioned as having plot holes, so we are actually arguing about an irrelevant detail. Secondly, you ignored my comment, so either did that on purpose or you couldn't comprehend my argument. If it's the former, you are trolling, if it's the latter, then the problem is with your English. Dude. You're the one who doesn't get it. Stop talking about changing the future or changing the past. There is nothing to change. This is a fixed timeline. The events are fixed. They already happend. Eren did not changed the past with the power of Attack Titan, nor Mikasa and Armin changed the future by killing Eren. There are no loops, there are no repeating loops, there are no loops in succession. There are no paradoxes. You are inventing this loop story only because, and I don't why, it's difficult for you to understand that a fixed timeline remain the same fixed timeline even with Eren manipulating Grisha. I don't know why saying characters doesn't make the same decision all over again but the events always happen the same way should be a contradiction. It really explain themselves if you read them. The first is about characters who make decisions, the latter is about the events. I'll give you a suggestion, try to watch Doctor Who? They talk about it all the time. You know what a contradiction would be? Someone begin to talk about fixed timelines out of the blue, but not really getting what they are, I suppose it's because 'fixed' confuse them, and then, once more out of the blue, that fixed timeline get discarded for a loop followed by another loop? What is that? How would you fit it the next creaky explanation? Oh. I wouldn't know. Oh. And please, tell me, drama queen. What would be the point I didn't answered and ignored? But there is a paradox and a loop: The grandfather paradox: a person travels back in time and kills their own grandfather before their parent was conceived, creating a logical contradiction: if the grandfather dies, the time traveler is never born, meaning they couldn't have traveled back in time to kill him in the first place, thus the grandfather lives, allowing the traveler to exist to go back and kill him, and so on.. this happened but with eren who decided not to change what happened but the paradox is still there. And there also is the Bootstrap Paradox (or Ontological Paradox), where an object or information has no origin because it loops infinitely—like giving Beethoven his own sheet music to play, or a scientist giving their younger self the idea for an invention that then becomes their own life's work, creating a self-existing loop with no true creator or first cause, challenging causality itself. Did you watch doctor who? It was explained in multiple episodes. Also eren did change the timeline. We just don’t know what the original timeline is where eren never travelled in the past. That 1st timeline existed but we will never know how the timeline we know came to be. |
TougS9 hours ago
9 hours ago
#66
TougS said: Irshiki said: ktg said: @Irshiki Hm, did you ignore my point on purpose or you just can't comprehend what I said? You repeated the same bullshit that I've refuted without actually addressing my point. Ok, let's go through your bs point again. Now one by one. Irshiki said: A time travel is a journey through time, not through memories If it's about a memory that is from a different age than you current lifespan, then you as an individual or the memory itself travels in time, so you could recall it, especially when it comes from the future, so technically it shouldn't have happened. That's why this a bad argument. Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. What you described it's not a fixed timeline. In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. These sentences contradict each other. First you stated that "Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again", then you state that "In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times". Irshiki said: You don't get what I'm saying, because you think that the scene of Eren talking to Grisha and perverting his mind is happening for the first time and is something Eren does out of his will. It is not It is, because that's how fixed timeline works, at least if you don't have a plot hole. I can accept that this is how I should interpret it, but then we are talking about the bootstrap paradox, which is a plot hole in itself. You would actually create a 2nd plot hole. Because so far none of your arguments actually addressed what I describe as a plot hole, because these are completely irrelevant. So even if I use your interpretation, it's still a plot hole. My interpretation - how generally fixed timeline works - would solve this issue and we have not problem with the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: Eren talking to Grisha is a plot twist only the moment it is shown in the story, but it already happend. It is simple Yes, then it's an additional plot hole to my already existing plot hole. So you created a new plot hole. Good job. You managed to further damage this series reputation. Irshiki said: Following your thinking, a paradox would be created. If Eren didn't convince Grisha to kill the royal family and getting eaten, how would Eren have the Attack Titan and Founding Titan? It's the opposite. My thinking is that in the previous loop Grisha made that decision by himself without Eren. So we would end up in the same situation, but because Eren was inpatient, he quickly tried to manipulate Grisha. Your interpretation is the one that create paradox, which called the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: He would be getting them the moment he convince Grisha through memories, but he couldn't do that without the Attack Titan and Founding Titan. That's what a fixed timeline is. No, that's the bootstrap paradox. In fixed timeline, Grisha even without Eren would make the same decision. That's what the fixed timeline means. In fixed timeline no matter what you do to change the future, it wouldn't change, but you could make a different decision in each loop about how to change the future. That's why I linked that description where it explains it through in example. You go back in time and you replace the REAL Adolf Hitler baby with an orphan baby to avoid the 2nd WW, but in a fixed timeline even if that baby is not the REAL Hitler, but an orphan, that orphan would grow up to be Hitler and will act as the REAL Hitler. Irshiki said: And please, do not speak badly of the way I speak. I may not be english native speaker, but I know how to talk. Don't mistake your inability to understand simple reasoning for the way I write and speak. Not really. You wrote this: Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. This actually inline with my argument. Initially Grisha made that decision alone without Eren's manipulation, but in the next loop, Eren manipulated Grisha. So we clearly have different actions like you wrote it. But then you wrote this: Irshiki said: In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. Which contradicts your previous sentence and does not support what I said. This is why it's hard to follow what your points are. And again, you are talking about a completely different things. This is not the part that I mentioned as having plot holes, so we are actually arguing about an irrelevant detail. Secondly, you ignored my comment, so either did that on purpose or you couldn't comprehend my argument. If it's the former, you are trolling, if it's the latter, then the problem is with your English. Dude. You're the one who doesn't get it. Stop talking about changing the future or changing the past. There is nothing to change. This is a fixed timeline. The events are fixed. They already happend. Eren did not changed the past with the power of Attack Titan, nor Mikasa and Armin changed the future by killing Eren. There are no loops, there are no repeating loops, there are no loops in succession. There are no paradoxes. You are inventing this loop story only because, and I don't why, it's difficult for you to understand that a fixed timeline remain the same fixed timeline even with Eren manipulating Grisha. I don't know why saying characters doesn't make the same decision all over again but the events always happen the same way should be a contradiction. It really explain themselves if you read them. The first is about characters who make decisions, the latter is about the events. I'll give you a suggestion, try to watch Doctor Who? They talk about it all the time. You know what a contradiction would be? Someone begin to talk about fixed timelines out of the blue, but not really getting what they are, I suppose it's because 'fixed' confuse them, and then, once more out of the blue, that fixed timeline get discarded for a loop followed by another loop? What is that? How would you fit it the next creaky explanation? Oh. I wouldn't know. Oh. And please, tell me, drama queen. What would be the point I didn't answered and ignored? But there is a paradox and a loop: The grandfather paradox: a person travels back in time and kills their own grandfather before their parent was conceived, creating a logical contradiction: if the grandfather dies, the time traveler is never born, meaning they couldn't have traveled back in time to kill him in the first place, thus the grandfather lives, allowing the traveler to exist to go back and kill him, and so on.. this happened but with eren who decided not to change what happened but the paradox is still there. And there also is the Bootstrap Paradox (or Ontological Paradox), where an object or information has no origin because it loops infinitely—like giving Beethoven his own sheet music to play, or a scientist giving their younger self the idea for an invention that then becomes their own life's work, creating a self-existing loop with no true creator or first cause, challenging causality itself. Did you watch doctor who? It was explained in multiple episodes. Also eren did change the timeline. We just don’t know what the original timeline is where eren never travelled in the past. That 1st timeline existed but we will never know how the timeline we know came to be. Eren did not changed the timeline because he Grisha already killed the royal family at the beginning of the series. Eren already had eaten the Founding Titan because Grisha ate it. Grisha never wanted to kill anyone, it is shown. By your logic Eren should have gotten the Founding Titan powers only after by your logic he changed Grisha's mind. But, since it is shown in the story he had the Founding Titan powers from the beginning there isn't any change of the past. |
9 hours ago
#67
Irshiki said: TougS said: Irshiki said: ktg said: @Irshiki Hm, did you ignore my point on purpose or you just can't comprehend what I said? You repeated the same bullshit that I've refuted without actually addressing my point. Ok, let's go through your bs point again. Now one by one. Irshiki said: A time travel is a journey through time, not through memories If it's about a memory that is from a different age than you current lifespan, then you as an individual or the memory itself travels in time, so you could recall it, especially when it comes from the future, so technically it shouldn't have happened. That's why this a bad argument. Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. What you described it's not a fixed timeline. In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. These sentences contradict each other. First you stated that "Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again", then you state that "In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times". Irshiki said: You don't get what I'm saying, because you think that the scene of Eren talking to Grisha and perverting his mind is happening for the first time and is something Eren does out of his will. It is not It is, because that's how fixed timeline works, at least if you don't have a plot hole. I can accept that this is how I should interpret it, but then we are talking about the bootstrap paradox, which is a plot hole in itself. You would actually create a 2nd plot hole. Because so far none of your arguments actually addressed what I describe as a plot hole, because these are completely irrelevant. So even if I use your interpretation, it's still a plot hole. My interpretation - how generally fixed timeline works - would solve this issue and we have not problem with the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: Eren talking to Grisha is a plot twist only the moment it is shown in the story, but it already happend. It is simple Yes, then it's an additional plot hole to my already existing plot hole. So you created a new plot hole. Good job. You managed to further damage this series reputation. Irshiki said: Following your thinking, a paradox would be created. If Eren didn't convince Grisha to kill the royal family and getting eaten, how would Eren have the Attack Titan and Founding Titan? It's the opposite. My thinking is that in the previous loop Grisha made that decision by himself without Eren. So we would end up in the same situation, but because Eren was inpatient, he quickly tried to manipulate Grisha. Your interpretation is the one that create paradox, which called the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: He would be getting them the moment he convince Grisha through memories, but he couldn't do that without the Attack Titan and Founding Titan. That's what a fixed timeline is. No, that's the bootstrap paradox. In fixed timeline, Grisha even without Eren would make the same decision. That's what the fixed timeline means. In fixed timeline no matter what you do to change the future, it wouldn't change, but you could make a different decision in each loop about how to change the future. That's why I linked that description where it explains it through in example. You go back in time and you replace the REAL Adolf Hitler baby with an orphan baby to avoid the 2nd WW, but in a fixed timeline even if that baby is not the REAL Hitler, but an orphan, that orphan would grow up to be Hitler and will act as the REAL Hitler. Irshiki said: And please, do not speak badly of the way I speak. I may not be english native speaker, but I know how to talk. Don't mistake your inability to understand simple reasoning for the way I write and speak. Not really. You wrote this: Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. This actually inline with my argument. Initially Grisha made that decision alone without Eren's manipulation, but in the next loop, Eren manipulated Grisha. So we clearly have different actions like you wrote it. But then you wrote this: Irshiki said: In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. Which contradicts your previous sentence and does not support what I said. This is why it's hard to follow what your points are. And again, you are talking about a completely different things. This is not the part that I mentioned as having plot holes, so we are actually arguing about an irrelevant detail. Secondly, you ignored my comment, so either did that on purpose or you couldn't comprehend my argument. If it's the former, you are trolling, if it's the latter, then the problem is with your English. Dude. You're the one who doesn't get it. Stop talking about changing the future or changing the past. There is nothing to change. This is a fixed timeline. The events are fixed. They already happend. Eren did not changed the past with the power of Attack Titan, nor Mikasa and Armin changed the future by killing Eren. There are no loops, there are no repeating loops, there are no loops in succession. There are no paradoxes. You are inventing this loop story only because, and I don't why, it's difficult for you to understand that a fixed timeline remain the same fixed timeline even with Eren manipulating Grisha. I don't know why saying characters doesn't make the same decision all over again but the events always happen the same way should be a contradiction. It really explain themselves if you read them. The first is about characters who make decisions, the latter is about the events. I'll give you a suggestion, try to watch Doctor Who? They talk about it all the time. You know what a contradiction would be? Someone begin to talk about fixed timelines out of the blue, but not really getting what they are, I suppose it's because 'fixed' confuse them, and then, once more out of the blue, that fixed timeline get discarded for a loop followed by another loop? What is that? How would you fit it the next creaky explanation? Oh. I wouldn't know. Oh. And please, tell me, drama queen. What would be the point I didn't answered and ignored? But there is a paradox and a loop: The grandfather paradox: a person travels back in time and kills their own grandfather before their parent was conceived, creating a logical contradiction: if the grandfather dies, the time traveler is never born, meaning they couldn't have traveled back in time to kill him in the first place, thus the grandfather lives, allowing the traveler to exist to go back and kill him, and so on.. this happened but with eren who decided not to change what happened but the paradox is still there. And there also is the Bootstrap Paradox (or Ontological Paradox), where an object or information has no origin because it loops infinitely—like giving Beethoven his own sheet music to play, or a scientist giving their younger self the idea for an invention that then becomes their own life's work, creating a self-existing loop with no true creator or first cause, challenging causality itself. Did you watch doctor who? It was explained in multiple episodes. Also eren did change the timeline. We just don’t know what the original timeline is where eren never travelled in the past. That 1st timeline existed but we will never know how the timeline we know came to be. Eren did not changed the timeline because he Grisha already killed the royal family at the beginning of the series. Eren already had eaten the Founding Titan because Grisha ate it. Grisha never wanted to kill anyone, it is shown. By your logic Eren should have gotten the Founding Titan powers only after by your logic he changed Grisha's mind. But, since it is shown in the story he had the Founding Titan powers from the beginning there isn't any change of the past. My logic? It’s the logic of time travel. He did change the past. The timeline we see in the aot story is not the original timeline in their universe it is the timeline where eren traveled in time. Time travel is complicated like that. How did it happened in the 1st place. When anyone travel to the past it creates a new timeline. |
9 hours ago
#68
TougS said: Irshiki said: TougS said: Irshiki said: ktg said: @Irshiki Hm, did you ignore my point on purpose or you just can't comprehend what I said? You repeated the same bullshit that I've refuted without actually addressing my point. Ok, let's go through your bs point again. Now one by one. Irshiki said: A time travel is a journey through time, not through memories If it's about a memory that is from a different age than you current lifespan, then you as an individual or the memory itself travels in time, so you could recall it, especially when it comes from the future, so technically it shouldn't have happened. That's why this a bad argument. Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. What you described it's not a fixed timeline. In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. These sentences contradict each other. First you stated that "Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again", then you state that "In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times". Irshiki said: You don't get what I'm saying, because you think that the scene of Eren talking to Grisha and perverting his mind is happening for the first time and is something Eren does out of his will. It is not It is, because that's how fixed timeline works, at least if you don't have a plot hole. I can accept that this is how I should interpret it, but then we are talking about the bootstrap paradox, which is a plot hole in itself. You would actually create a 2nd plot hole. Because so far none of your arguments actually addressed what I describe as a plot hole, because these are completely irrelevant. So even if I use your interpretation, it's still a plot hole. My interpretation - how generally fixed timeline works - would solve this issue and we have not problem with the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: Eren talking to Grisha is a plot twist only the moment it is shown in the story, but it already happend. It is simple Yes, then it's an additional plot hole to my already existing plot hole. So you created a new plot hole. Good job. You managed to further damage this series reputation. Irshiki said: Following your thinking, a paradox would be created. If Eren didn't convince Grisha to kill the royal family and getting eaten, how would Eren have the Attack Titan and Founding Titan? It's the opposite. My thinking is that in the previous loop Grisha made that decision by himself without Eren. So we would end up in the same situation, but because Eren was inpatient, he quickly tried to manipulate Grisha. Your interpretation is the one that create paradox, which called the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: He would be getting them the moment he convince Grisha through memories, but he couldn't do that without the Attack Titan and Founding Titan. That's what a fixed timeline is. No, that's the bootstrap paradox. In fixed timeline, Grisha even without Eren would make the same decision. That's what the fixed timeline means. In fixed timeline no matter what you do to change the future, it wouldn't change, but you could make a different decision in each loop about how to change the future. That's why I linked that description where it explains it through in example. You go back in time and you replace the REAL Adolf Hitler baby with an orphan baby to avoid the 2nd WW, but in a fixed timeline even if that baby is not the REAL Hitler, but an orphan, that orphan would grow up to be Hitler and will act as the REAL Hitler. Irshiki said: And please, do not speak badly of the way I speak. I may not be english native speaker, but I know how to talk. Don't mistake your inability to understand simple reasoning for the way I write and speak. Not really. You wrote this: Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. This actually inline with my argument. Initially Grisha made that decision alone without Eren's manipulation, but in the next loop, Eren manipulated Grisha. So we clearly have different actions like you wrote it. But then you wrote this: Irshiki said: In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. Which contradicts your previous sentence and does not support what I said. This is why it's hard to follow what your points are. And again, you are talking about a completely different things. This is not the part that I mentioned as having plot holes, so we are actually arguing about an irrelevant detail. Secondly, you ignored my comment, so either did that on purpose or you couldn't comprehend my argument. If it's the former, you are trolling, if it's the latter, then the problem is with your English. Dude. You're the one who doesn't get it. Stop talking about changing the future or changing the past. There is nothing to change. This is a fixed timeline. The events are fixed. They already happend. Eren did not changed the past with the power of Attack Titan, nor Mikasa and Armin changed the future by killing Eren. There are no loops, there are no repeating loops, there are no loops in succession. There are no paradoxes. You are inventing this loop story only because, and I don't why, it's difficult for you to understand that a fixed timeline remain the same fixed timeline even with Eren manipulating Grisha. I don't know why saying characters doesn't make the same decision all over again but the events always happen the same way should be a contradiction. It really explain themselves if you read them. The first is about characters who make decisions, the latter is about the events. I'll give you a suggestion, try to watch Doctor Who? They talk about it all the time. You know what a contradiction would be? Someone begin to talk about fixed timelines out of the blue, but not really getting what they are, I suppose it's because 'fixed' confuse them, and then, once more out of the blue, that fixed timeline get discarded for a loop followed by another loop? What is that? How would you fit it the next creaky explanation? Oh. I wouldn't know. Oh. And please, tell me, drama queen. What would be the point I didn't answered and ignored? But there is a paradox and a loop: The grandfather paradox: a person travels back in time and kills their own grandfather before their parent was conceived, creating a logical contradiction: if the grandfather dies, the time traveler is never born, meaning they couldn't have traveled back in time to kill him in the first place, thus the grandfather lives, allowing the traveler to exist to go back and kill him, and so on.. this happened but with eren who decided not to change what happened but the paradox is still there. And there also is the Bootstrap Paradox (or Ontological Paradox), where an object or information has no origin because it loops infinitely—like giving Beethoven his own sheet music to play, or a scientist giving their younger self the idea for an invention that then becomes their own life's work, creating a self-existing loop with no true creator or first cause, challenging causality itself. Did you watch doctor who? It was explained in multiple episodes. Also eren did change the timeline. We just don’t know what the original timeline is where eren never travelled in the past. That 1st timeline existed but we will never know how the timeline we know came to be. Eren did not changed the timeline because he Grisha already killed the royal family at the beginning of the series. Eren already had eaten the Founding Titan because Grisha ate it. Grisha never wanted to kill anyone, it is shown. By your logic Eren should have gotten the Founding Titan powers only after by your logic he changed Grisha's mind. But, since it is shown in the story he had the Founding Titan powers from the beginning there isn't any change of the past. My logic? It’s the logic of time travel. He did change the past. The timeline we see in the aot story is not the original timeline in their universe it is the timeline where eren traveled in time. Time travel is complicated like that. How did it happened in the 1st place. When anyone travel to the past it creates a new timeline. Yeah... but there's no time travel. Grisha and Eren are able to interact because of Attack Titan powers they both possess. In fact the other characters, Zeke included who can interact with Grisha only because he's with Eren, cannot see or interact with Eren. If it was time travel everyone there should be aware and interact with each other. Plus, it is a travel through the memories of the Attack Titan. |
7 hours ago
#69
Irshiki said: TougS said: Irshiki said: TougS said: Irshiki said: ktg said: @Irshiki Hm, did you ignore my point on purpose or you just can't comprehend what I said? You repeated the same bullshit that I've refuted without actually addressing my point. Ok, let's go through your bs point again. Now one by one. Irshiki said: A time travel is a journey through time, not through memories If it's about a memory that is from a different age than you current lifespan, then you as an individual or the memory itself travels in time, so you could recall it, especially when it comes from the future, so technically it shouldn't have happened. That's why this a bad argument. Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. What you described it's not a fixed timeline. In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. These sentences contradict each other. First you stated that "Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again", then you state that "In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times". Irshiki said: You don't get what I'm saying, because you think that the scene of Eren talking to Grisha and perverting his mind is happening for the first time and is something Eren does out of his will. It is not It is, because that's how fixed timeline works, at least if you don't have a plot hole. I can accept that this is how I should interpret it, but then we are talking about the bootstrap paradox, which is a plot hole in itself. You would actually create a 2nd plot hole. Because so far none of your arguments actually addressed what I describe as a plot hole, because these are completely irrelevant. So even if I use your interpretation, it's still a plot hole. My interpretation - how generally fixed timeline works - would solve this issue and we have not problem with the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: Eren talking to Grisha is a plot twist only the moment it is shown in the story, but it already happend. It is simple Yes, then it's an additional plot hole to my already existing plot hole. So you created a new plot hole. Good job. You managed to further damage this series reputation. Irshiki said: Following your thinking, a paradox would be created. If Eren didn't convince Grisha to kill the royal family and getting eaten, how would Eren have the Attack Titan and Founding Titan? It's the opposite. My thinking is that in the previous loop Grisha made that decision by himself without Eren. So we would end up in the same situation, but because Eren was inpatient, he quickly tried to manipulate Grisha. Your interpretation is the one that create paradox, which called the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: He would be getting them the moment he convince Grisha through memories, but he couldn't do that without the Attack Titan and Founding Titan. That's what a fixed timeline is. No, that's the bootstrap paradox. In fixed timeline, Grisha even without Eren would make the same decision. That's what the fixed timeline means. In fixed timeline no matter what you do to change the future, it wouldn't change, but you could make a different decision in each loop about how to change the future. That's why I linked that description where it explains it through in example. You go back in time and you replace the REAL Adolf Hitler baby with an orphan baby to avoid the 2nd WW, but in a fixed timeline even if that baby is not the REAL Hitler, but an orphan, that orphan would grow up to be Hitler and will act as the REAL Hitler. Irshiki said: And please, do not speak badly of the way I speak. I may not be english native speaker, but I know how to talk. Don't mistake your inability to understand simple reasoning for the way I write and speak. Not really. You wrote this: Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. This actually inline with my argument. Initially Grisha made that decision alone without Eren's manipulation, but in the next loop, Eren manipulated Grisha. So we clearly have different actions like you wrote it. But then you wrote this: Irshiki said: In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. Which contradicts your previous sentence and does not support what I said. This is why it's hard to follow what your points are. And again, you are talking about a completely different things. This is not the part that I mentioned as having plot holes, so we are actually arguing about an irrelevant detail. Secondly, you ignored my comment, so either did that on purpose or you couldn't comprehend my argument. If it's the former, you are trolling, if it's the latter, then the problem is with your English. Dude. You're the one who doesn't get it. Stop talking about changing the future or changing the past. There is nothing to change. This is a fixed timeline. The events are fixed. They already happend. Eren did not changed the past with the power of Attack Titan, nor Mikasa and Armin changed the future by killing Eren. There are no loops, there are no repeating loops, there are no loops in succession. There are no paradoxes. You are inventing this loop story only because, and I don't why, it's difficult for you to understand that a fixed timeline remain the same fixed timeline even with Eren manipulating Grisha. I don't know why saying characters doesn't make the same decision all over again but the events always happen the same way should be a contradiction. It really explain themselves if you read them. The first is about characters who make decisions, the latter is about the events. I'll give you a suggestion, try to watch Doctor Who? They talk about it all the time. You know what a contradiction would be? Someone begin to talk about fixed timelines out of the blue, but not really getting what they are, I suppose it's because 'fixed' confuse them, and then, once more out of the blue, that fixed timeline get discarded for a loop followed by another loop? What is that? How would you fit it the next creaky explanation? Oh. I wouldn't know. Oh. And please, tell me, drama queen. What would be the point I didn't answered and ignored? But there is a paradox and a loop: The grandfather paradox: a person travels back in time and kills their own grandfather before their parent was conceived, creating a logical contradiction: if the grandfather dies, the time traveler is never born, meaning they couldn't have traveled back in time to kill him in the first place, thus the grandfather lives, allowing the traveler to exist to go back and kill him, and so on.. this happened but with eren who decided not to change what happened but the paradox is still there. And there also is the Bootstrap Paradox (or Ontological Paradox), where an object or information has no origin because it loops infinitely—like giving Beethoven his own sheet music to play, or a scientist giving their younger self the idea for an invention that then becomes their own life's work, creating a self-existing loop with no true creator or first cause, challenging causality itself. Did you watch doctor who? It was explained in multiple episodes. Also eren did change the timeline. We just don’t know what the original timeline is where eren never travelled in the past. That 1st timeline existed but we will never know how the timeline we know came to be. Eren did not changed the timeline because he Grisha already killed the royal family at the beginning of the series. Eren already had eaten the Founding Titan because Grisha ate it. Grisha never wanted to kill anyone, it is shown. By your logic Eren should have gotten the Founding Titan powers only after by your logic he changed Grisha's mind. But, since it is shown in the story he had the Founding Titan powers from the beginning there isn't any change of the past. My logic? It’s the logic of time travel. He did change the past. The timeline we see in the aot story is not the original timeline in their universe it is the timeline where eren traveled in time. Time travel is complicated like that. How did it happened in the 1st place. When anyone travel to the past it creates a new timeline. Yeah... but there's no time travel. Grisha and Eren are able to interact because of Attack Titan powers they both possess. In fact the other characters, Zeke included who can interact with Grisha only because he's with Eren, cannot see or interact with Eren. If it was time travel everyone there should be aware and interact with each other. Plus, it is a travel through the memories of the Attack Titan. … again it’s still time travel.. it isn’t just travel through the memories otherwise eren wouldn’t have been able to affect what happened or even see what happens in the future. It is similar to steins; gate, it is not a physical time travel but a mental time travel.. his mind time traveled into the mind of the other titan’s user. Or rather memory time travel being able to travel to the memories of the past and future of the attack titan. It is still a sort of time travel.. Again time travel has different form…This also is a time travel paradox that is present in aot: Predestination Paradox |
7 hours ago
#70
TougS said: Irshiki said: TougS said: Irshiki said: TougS said: Irshiki said: ktg said: @Irshiki Hm, did you ignore my point on purpose or you just can't comprehend what I said? You repeated the same bullshit that I've refuted without actually addressing my point. Ok, let's go through your bs point again. Now one by one. Irshiki said: A time travel is a journey through time, not through memories If it's about a memory that is from a different age than you current lifespan, then you as an individual or the memory itself travels in time, so you could recall it, especially when it comes from the future, so technically it shouldn't have happened. That's why this a bad argument. Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. What you described it's not a fixed timeline. In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. These sentences contradict each other. First you stated that "Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again", then you state that "In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times". Irshiki said: You don't get what I'm saying, because you think that the scene of Eren talking to Grisha and perverting his mind is happening for the first time and is something Eren does out of his will. It is not It is, because that's how fixed timeline works, at least if you don't have a plot hole. I can accept that this is how I should interpret it, but then we are talking about the bootstrap paradox, which is a plot hole in itself. You would actually create a 2nd plot hole. Because so far none of your arguments actually addressed what I describe as a plot hole, because these are completely irrelevant. So even if I use your interpretation, it's still a plot hole. My interpretation - how generally fixed timeline works - would solve this issue and we have not problem with the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: Eren talking to Grisha is a plot twist only the moment it is shown in the story, but it already happend. It is simple Yes, then it's an additional plot hole to my already existing plot hole. So you created a new plot hole. Good job. You managed to further damage this series reputation. Irshiki said: Following your thinking, a paradox would be created. If Eren didn't convince Grisha to kill the royal family and getting eaten, how would Eren have the Attack Titan and Founding Titan? It's the opposite. My thinking is that in the previous loop Grisha made that decision by himself without Eren. So we would end up in the same situation, but because Eren was inpatient, he quickly tried to manipulate Grisha. Your interpretation is the one that create paradox, which called the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: He would be getting them the moment he convince Grisha through memories, but he couldn't do that without the Attack Titan and Founding Titan. That's what a fixed timeline is. No, that's the bootstrap paradox. In fixed timeline, Grisha even without Eren would make the same decision. That's what the fixed timeline means. In fixed timeline no matter what you do to change the future, it wouldn't change, but you could make a different decision in each loop about how to change the future. That's why I linked that description where it explains it through in example. You go back in time and you replace the REAL Adolf Hitler baby with an orphan baby to avoid the 2nd WW, but in a fixed timeline even if that baby is not the REAL Hitler, but an orphan, that orphan would grow up to be Hitler and will act as the REAL Hitler. Irshiki said: And please, do not speak badly of the way I speak. I may not be english native speaker, but I know how to talk. Don't mistake your inability to understand simple reasoning for the way I write and speak. Not really. You wrote this: Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. This actually inline with my argument. Initially Grisha made that decision alone without Eren's manipulation, but in the next loop, Eren manipulated Grisha. So we clearly have different actions like you wrote it. But then you wrote this: Irshiki said: In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. Which contradicts your previous sentence and does not support what I said. This is why it's hard to follow what your points are. And again, you are talking about a completely different things. This is not the part that I mentioned as having plot holes, so we are actually arguing about an irrelevant detail. Secondly, you ignored my comment, so either did that on purpose or you couldn't comprehend my argument. If it's the former, you are trolling, if it's the latter, then the problem is with your English. Dude. You're the one who doesn't get it. Stop talking about changing the future or changing the past. There is nothing to change. This is a fixed timeline. The events are fixed. They already happend. Eren did not changed the past with the power of Attack Titan, nor Mikasa and Armin changed the future by killing Eren. There are no loops, there are no repeating loops, there are no loops in succession. There are no paradoxes. You are inventing this loop story only because, and I don't why, it's difficult for you to understand that a fixed timeline remain the same fixed timeline even with Eren manipulating Grisha. I don't know why saying characters doesn't make the same decision all over again but the events always happen the same way should be a contradiction. It really explain themselves if you read them. The first is about characters who make decisions, the latter is about the events. I'll give you a suggestion, try to watch Doctor Who? They talk about it all the time. You know what a contradiction would be? Someone begin to talk about fixed timelines out of the blue, but not really getting what they are, I suppose it's because 'fixed' confuse them, and then, once more out of the blue, that fixed timeline get discarded for a loop followed by another loop? What is that? How would you fit it the next creaky explanation? Oh. I wouldn't know. Oh. And please, tell me, drama queen. What would be the point I didn't answered and ignored? But there is a paradox and a loop: The grandfather paradox: a person travels back in time and kills their own grandfather before their parent was conceived, creating a logical contradiction: if the grandfather dies, the time traveler is never born, meaning they couldn't have traveled back in time to kill him in the first place, thus the grandfather lives, allowing the traveler to exist to go back and kill him, and so on.. this happened but with eren who decided not to change what happened but the paradox is still there. And there also is the Bootstrap Paradox (or Ontological Paradox), where an object or information has no origin because it loops infinitely—like giving Beethoven his own sheet music to play, or a scientist giving their younger self the idea for an invention that then becomes their own life's work, creating a self-existing loop with no true creator or first cause, challenging causality itself. Did you watch doctor who? It was explained in multiple episodes. Also eren did change the timeline. We just don’t know what the original timeline is where eren never travelled in the past. That 1st timeline existed but we will never know how the timeline we know came to be. Eren did not changed the timeline because he Grisha already killed the royal family at the beginning of the series. Eren already had eaten the Founding Titan because Grisha ate it. Grisha never wanted to kill anyone, it is shown. By your logic Eren should have gotten the Founding Titan powers only after by your logic he changed Grisha's mind. But, since it is shown in the story he had the Founding Titan powers from the beginning there isn't any change of the past. My logic? It’s the logic of time travel. He did change the past. The timeline we see in the aot story is not the original timeline in their universe it is the timeline where eren traveled in time. Time travel is complicated like that. How did it happened in the 1st place. When anyone travel to the past it creates a new timeline. Yeah... but there's no time travel. Grisha and Eren are able to interact because of Attack Titan powers they both possess. In fact the other characters, Zeke included who can interact with Grisha only because he's with Eren, cannot see or interact with Eren. If it was time travel everyone there should be aware and interact with each other. Plus, it is a travel through the memories of the Attack Titan. … again it’s still time travel.. it isn’t just travel through the memories otherwise eren wouldn’t have been able to affect what happened or even see what happens in the future. It is similar to steins; gate, it is not a physical time travel but a mental time travel.. his mind time traveled into the mind of the other titan’s user. Or rather memory time travel being able to travel to the memories of the past and future of the attack titan. It is still a sort of time travel.. Again time travel has different form…This also is a time travel paradox that is present in aot: Predestination Paradox They're just seeing each other through their memories. Their interaction only happen through their memories. That's what make it so romantic. They continue to repeat all over again about memories throughout the series. The concept of time travel doesn't even exist in the series. |
3 hours ago
#71
Irshiki said: TougS said: Irshiki said: TougS said: Irshiki said: TougS said: Irshiki said: ktg said: @Irshiki Hm, did you ignore my point on purpose or you just can't comprehend what I said? You repeated the same bullshit that I've refuted without actually addressing my point. Ok, let's go through your bs point again. Now one by one. Irshiki said: A time travel is a journey through time, not through memories If it's about a memory that is from a different age than you current lifespan, then you as an individual or the memory itself travels in time, so you could recall it, especially when it comes from the future, so technically it shouldn't have happened. That's why this a bad argument. Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. What you described it's not a fixed timeline. In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. These sentences contradict each other. First you stated that "Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again", then you state that "In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times". Irshiki said: You don't get what I'm saying, because you think that the scene of Eren talking to Grisha and perverting his mind is happening for the first time and is something Eren does out of his will. It is not It is, because that's how fixed timeline works, at least if you don't have a plot hole. I can accept that this is how I should interpret it, but then we are talking about the bootstrap paradox, which is a plot hole in itself. You would actually create a 2nd plot hole. Because so far none of your arguments actually addressed what I describe as a plot hole, because these are completely irrelevant. So even if I use your interpretation, it's still a plot hole. My interpretation - how generally fixed timeline works - would solve this issue and we have not problem with the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: Eren talking to Grisha is a plot twist only the moment it is shown in the story, but it already happend. It is simple Yes, then it's an additional plot hole to my already existing plot hole. So you created a new plot hole. Good job. You managed to further damage this series reputation. Irshiki said: Following your thinking, a paradox would be created. If Eren didn't convince Grisha to kill the royal family and getting eaten, how would Eren have the Attack Titan and Founding Titan? It's the opposite. My thinking is that in the previous loop Grisha made that decision by himself without Eren. So we would end up in the same situation, but because Eren was inpatient, he quickly tried to manipulate Grisha. Your interpretation is the one that create paradox, which called the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: He would be getting them the moment he convince Grisha through memories, but he couldn't do that without the Attack Titan and Founding Titan. That's what a fixed timeline is. No, that's the bootstrap paradox. In fixed timeline, Grisha even without Eren would make the same decision. That's what the fixed timeline means. In fixed timeline no matter what you do to change the future, it wouldn't change, but you could make a different decision in each loop about how to change the future. That's why I linked that description where it explains it through in example. You go back in time and you replace the REAL Adolf Hitler baby with an orphan baby to avoid the 2nd WW, but in a fixed timeline even if that baby is not the REAL Hitler, but an orphan, that orphan would grow up to be Hitler and will act as the REAL Hitler. Irshiki said: And please, do not speak badly of the way I speak. I may not be english native speaker, but I know how to talk. Don't mistake your inability to understand simple reasoning for the way I write and speak. Not really. You wrote this: Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. This actually inline with my argument. Initially Grisha made that decision alone without Eren's manipulation, but in the next loop, Eren manipulated Grisha. So we clearly have different actions like you wrote it. But then you wrote this: Irshiki said: In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. Which contradicts your previous sentence and does not support what I said. This is why it's hard to follow what your points are. And again, you are talking about a completely different things. This is not the part that I mentioned as having plot holes, so we are actually arguing about an irrelevant detail. Secondly, you ignored my comment, so either did that on purpose or you couldn't comprehend my argument. If it's the former, you are trolling, if it's the latter, then the problem is with your English. Dude. You're the one who doesn't get it. Stop talking about changing the future or changing the past. There is nothing to change. This is a fixed timeline. The events are fixed. They already happend. Eren did not changed the past with the power of Attack Titan, nor Mikasa and Armin changed the future by killing Eren. There are no loops, there are no repeating loops, there are no loops in succession. There are no paradoxes. You are inventing this loop story only because, and I don't why, it's difficult for you to understand that a fixed timeline remain the same fixed timeline even with Eren manipulating Grisha. I don't know why saying characters doesn't make the same decision all over again but the events always happen the same way should be a contradiction. It really explain themselves if you read them. The first is about characters who make decisions, the latter is about the events. I'll give you a suggestion, try to watch Doctor Who? They talk about it all the time. You know what a contradiction would be? Someone begin to talk about fixed timelines out of the blue, but not really getting what they are, I suppose it's because 'fixed' confuse them, and then, once more out of the blue, that fixed timeline get discarded for a loop followed by another loop? What is that? How would you fit it the next creaky explanation? Oh. I wouldn't know. Oh. And please, tell me, drama queen. What would be the point I didn't answered and ignored? But there is a paradox and a loop: The grandfather paradox: a person travels back in time and kills their own grandfather before their parent was conceived, creating a logical contradiction: if the grandfather dies, the time traveler is never born, meaning they couldn't have traveled back in time to kill him in the first place, thus the grandfather lives, allowing the traveler to exist to go back and kill him, and so on.. this happened but with eren who decided not to change what happened but the paradox is still there. And there also is the Bootstrap Paradox (or Ontological Paradox), where an object or information has no origin because it loops infinitely—like giving Beethoven his own sheet music to play, or a scientist giving their younger self the idea for an invention that then becomes their own life's work, creating a self-existing loop with no true creator or first cause, challenging causality itself. Did you watch doctor who? It was explained in multiple episodes. Also eren did change the timeline. We just don’t know what the original timeline is where eren never travelled in the past. That 1st timeline existed but we will never know how the timeline we know came to be. Eren did not changed the timeline because he Grisha already killed the royal family at the beginning of the series. Eren already had eaten the Founding Titan because Grisha ate it. Grisha never wanted to kill anyone, it is shown. By your logic Eren should have gotten the Founding Titan powers only after by your logic he changed Grisha's mind. But, since it is shown in the story he had the Founding Titan powers from the beginning there isn't any change of the past. My logic? It’s the logic of time travel. He did change the past. The timeline we see in the aot story is not the original timeline in their universe it is the timeline where eren traveled in time. Time travel is complicated like that. How did it happened in the 1st place. When anyone travel to the past it creates a new timeline. Yeah... but there's no time travel. Grisha and Eren are able to interact because of Attack Titan powers they both possess. In fact the other characters, Zeke included who can interact with Grisha only because he's with Eren, cannot see or interact with Eren. If it was time travel everyone there should be aware and interact with each other. Plus, it is a travel through the memories of the Attack Titan. … again it’s still time travel.. it isn’t just travel through the memories otherwise eren wouldn’t have been able to affect what happened or even see what happens in the future. It is similar to steins; gate, it is not a physical time travel but a mental time travel.. his mind time traveled into the mind of the other titan’s user. Or rather memory time travel being able to travel to the memories of the past and future of the attack titan. It is still a sort of time travel.. Again time travel has different form…This also is a time travel paradox that is present in aot: Predestination Paradox They're just seeing each other through their memories. Their interaction only happen through their memories. That's what make it so romantic. They continue to repeat all over again about memories throughout the series. The concept of time travel doesn't even exist in the series. …. They can affect each other’s past,present by doing that.. But let me put it this way us in the real world can go through our memories too and some can even see images while recalling an event from the past. But we cannot affect our past or the past of people related to us by going through our memories or see our future or interact with others from the past or our past self... Eren mentally went to the past inside the titan’s head. And affected the past he did affect the past but for him it already happened…It’s similar to Tokyo revenger when the protagonist mentally travel back in time in his younger self’s head. No one knows that he time traveled but he did. But until Tokyo revengers the time travel in aot was meant to happen and was already part of the story…Actually some part of the Tokyo revenger story is a bit of a fixed timeline..And fyi a fixed timeline is only used when talking about time travel and it’s a time travel paradox called The Predestination Paradox just fyi…There are multiple time travel paradox in the aot storyline that i already mentioned..How can time travel paradox exist if time travel doesn’t? Time travel is this:travelling through time. It can be physically,mentally and it can also be objects that time travel or ever memories. Eren used the titan’s power to sent some of his memories to the past so it would happen the way that his past happened.. time travel exists in aot just not the usual type… Anyways i’m done now. Eren did time travel,but mentally.. |
TougS3 hours ago
3 hours ago
#72
TougS said: Irshiki said: TougS said: Irshiki said: TougS said: Irshiki said: TougS said: Irshiki said: ktg said: @Irshiki Hm, did you ignore my point on purpose or you just can't comprehend what I said? You repeated the same bullshit that I've refuted without actually addressing my point. Ok, let's go through your bs point again. Now one by one. Irshiki said: A time travel is a journey through time, not through memories If it's about a memory that is from a different age than you current lifespan, then you as an individual or the memory itself travels in time, so you could recall it, especially when it comes from the future, so technically it shouldn't have happened. That's why this a bad argument. Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. What you described it's not a fixed timeline. In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. These sentences contradict each other. First you stated that "Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again", then you state that "In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times". Irshiki said: You don't get what I'm saying, because you think that the scene of Eren talking to Grisha and perverting his mind is happening for the first time and is something Eren does out of his will. It is not It is, because that's how fixed timeline works, at least if you don't have a plot hole. I can accept that this is how I should interpret it, but then we are talking about the bootstrap paradox, which is a plot hole in itself. You would actually create a 2nd plot hole. Because so far none of your arguments actually addressed what I describe as a plot hole, because these are completely irrelevant. So even if I use your interpretation, it's still a plot hole. My interpretation - how generally fixed timeline works - would solve this issue and we have not problem with the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: Eren talking to Grisha is a plot twist only the moment it is shown in the story, but it already happend. It is simple Yes, then it's an additional plot hole to my already existing plot hole. So you created a new plot hole. Good job. You managed to further damage this series reputation. Irshiki said: Following your thinking, a paradox would be created. If Eren didn't convince Grisha to kill the royal family and getting eaten, how would Eren have the Attack Titan and Founding Titan? It's the opposite. My thinking is that in the previous loop Grisha made that decision by himself without Eren. So we would end up in the same situation, but because Eren was inpatient, he quickly tried to manipulate Grisha. Your interpretation is the one that create paradox, which called the bootstrap paradox. Irshiki said: He would be getting them the moment he convince Grisha through memories, but he couldn't do that without the Attack Titan and Founding Titan. That's what a fixed timeline is. No, that's the bootstrap paradox. In fixed timeline, Grisha even without Eren would make the same decision. That's what the fixed timeline means. In fixed timeline no matter what you do to change the future, it wouldn't change, but you could make a different decision in each loop about how to change the future. That's why I linked that description where it explains it through in example. You go back in time and you replace the REAL Adolf Hitler baby with an orphan baby to avoid the 2nd WW, but in a fixed timeline even if that baby is not the REAL Hitler, but an orphan, that orphan would grow up to be Hitler and will act as the REAL Hitler. Irshiki said: And please, do not speak badly of the way I speak. I may not be english native speaker, but I know how to talk. Don't mistake your inability to understand simple reasoning for the way I write and speak. Not really. You wrote this: Irshiki said: Fixed timeline doesn't mean the characters make the same decision over and over again. This actually inline with my argument. Initially Grisha made that decision alone without Eren's manipulation, but in the next loop, Eren manipulated Grisha. So we clearly have different actions like you wrote it. But then you wrote this: Irshiki said: In a fixed timeline things happen the same all the times. Which contradicts your previous sentence and does not support what I said. This is why it's hard to follow what your points are. And again, you are talking about a completely different things. This is not the part that I mentioned as having plot holes, so we are actually arguing about an irrelevant detail. Secondly, you ignored my comment, so either did that on purpose or you couldn't comprehend my argument. If it's the former, you are trolling, if it's the latter, then the problem is with your English. Dude. You're the one who doesn't get it. Stop talking about changing the future or changing the past. There is nothing to change. This is a fixed timeline. The events are fixed. They already happend. Eren did not changed the past with the power of Attack Titan, nor Mikasa and Armin changed the future by killing Eren. There are no loops, there are no repeating loops, there are no loops in succession. There are no paradoxes. You are inventing this loop story only because, and I don't why, it's difficult for you to understand that a fixed timeline remain the same fixed timeline even with Eren manipulating Grisha. I don't know why saying characters doesn't make the same decision all over again but the events always happen the same way should be a contradiction. It really explain themselves if you read them. The first is about characters who make decisions, the latter is about the events. I'll give you a suggestion, try to watch Doctor Who? They talk about it all the time. You know what a contradiction would be? Someone begin to talk about fixed timelines out of the blue, but not really getting what they are, I suppose it's because 'fixed' confuse them, and then, once more out of the blue, that fixed timeline get discarded for a loop followed by another loop? What is that? How would you fit it the next creaky explanation? Oh. I wouldn't know. Oh. And please, tell me, drama queen. What would be the point I didn't answered and ignored? But there is a paradox and a loop: The grandfather paradox: a person travels back in time and kills their own grandfather before their parent was conceived, creating a logical contradiction: if the grandfather dies, the time traveler is never born, meaning they couldn't have traveled back in time to kill him in the first place, thus the grandfather lives, allowing the traveler to exist to go back and kill him, and so on.. this happened but with eren who decided not to change what happened but the paradox is still there. And there also is the Bootstrap Paradox (or Ontological Paradox), where an object or information has no origin because it loops infinitely—like giving Beethoven his own sheet music to play, or a scientist giving their younger self the idea for an invention that then becomes their own life's work, creating a self-existing loop with no true creator or first cause, challenging causality itself. Did you watch doctor who? It was explained in multiple episodes. Also eren did change the timeline. We just don’t know what the original timeline is where eren never travelled in the past. That 1st timeline existed but we will never know how the timeline we know came to be. Eren did not changed the timeline because he Grisha already killed the royal family at the beginning of the series. Eren already had eaten the Founding Titan because Grisha ate it. Grisha never wanted to kill anyone, it is shown. By your logic Eren should have gotten the Founding Titan powers only after by your logic he changed Grisha's mind. But, since it is shown in the story he had the Founding Titan powers from the beginning there isn't any change of the past. My logic? It’s the logic of time travel. He did change the past. The timeline we see in the aot story is not the original timeline in their universe it is the timeline where eren traveled in time. Time travel is complicated like that. How did it happened in the 1st place. When anyone travel to the past it creates a new timeline. Yeah... but there's no time travel. Grisha and Eren are able to interact because of Attack Titan powers they both possess. In fact the other characters, Zeke included who can interact with Grisha only because he's with Eren, cannot see or interact with Eren. If it was time travel everyone there should be aware and interact with each other. Plus, it is a travel through the memories of the Attack Titan. … again it’s still time travel.. it isn’t just travel through the memories otherwise eren wouldn’t have been able to affect what happened or even see what happens in the future. It is similar to steins; gate, it is not a physical time travel but a mental time travel.. his mind time traveled into the mind of the other titan’s user. Or rather memory time travel being able to travel to the memories of the past and future of the attack titan. It is still a sort of time travel.. Again time travel has different form…This also is a time travel paradox that is present in aot: Predestination Paradox They're just seeing each other through their memories. Their interaction only happen through their memories. That's what make it so romantic. They continue to repeat all over again about memories throughout the series. The concept of time travel doesn't even exist in the series. …. They can affect each other’s past,present by doing that.. But let me put it this way us in the real world can go through our memories too and some can even see images while recalling an event from the past. But we cannot affect our past or the past of people related to us by going through our memories or see our future or interact with others from the past or our past self... Eren mentally went to the past inside the titan’s head. And affected the past he did affect the past but for him it already happened…It’s similar to Tokyo revenger when the protagonist mentally travel back in time in his younger self’s head. No one knows that he time traveled but he did. But until Tokyo revengers the time travel in aot was meant to happen and was already part of the story…Actually some part of the Tokyo revenger story is a bit of a fixed timeline..And fyi a fixed timeline is only used when talking about time travel and it’s a time travel paradox called The Predestination Paradox just fyi…There are multiple time travel paradox in the aot storyline that i already mentioned..How can time travel paradox exist if time travel doesn’t? Time travel is this:travelling through time. It can be physically,mentally and it can also be objects that time travel or ever memories. Eren used the titan’s power to sent some of his memories to the past so it would happen the way that his past happened.. time travel exists in aot just not the usual type… Anyways i’m done now. Eren did time travel,but mentally.. I can agree on the event we're talking about working like a time travel, but saying it is a time travel would be wrong. It is mentally, like I said in previous posts and it is what makes it something that is not a time travel. Which, like I said, is not a concept inside the story, talking about the famous type of time travel. It's like putting an external trope inside a story only to explain an event, which already has an explanation, in a different way. |
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