Brinxen said: If the anime revolves around the MC's interactions with the girls, the MC in question NEEDS to be INTERESTING. It doesn't, really. The anime/manga in question is infinitely more likely to revolve around the girls in a way that lopsidedly focuses on them, what they're doing, and how they'll respond to a certain context over the MC's role in the interaction. He just needs to be able to set it up, and it'd be counter-intuitive to be a setup to other characters to make them look good/appealing if you're swiping focus and attention away from them. Ideally, it's not at all even close to being a 50/50 dynamic. "Watching a harem anime for the guy" should be a joke that gets tossed around more, because it sounds completely fucking absurd. The emphasis people place on the MC really showcases how utterly detached from the product they are. And it's so ubiquitous that I've watched too many people who are into the genre normally suddenly start caring about the MC because of the absurd emphasis people on this board will place on it, as if they need to validate the genre's worth to people who don't actually give a shit about it and are most likely just repeating some misguided drivel that'll actively make most series worse for people who do actually give a shit about them. It's pathetic, but I guess that's how groupthink tends to operate and not everybody can be a leader. Harem MCs are facilitators. And they're better being that way than being an unwanted element pulling screentime and focus away from the harem itself. The core appeal of the genre is literally the fucking title of the genre. |
ManabanApr 27, 2020 1:50 AM
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| Aslong there's no stupid MC and harem cliche... then i dont hate harem. |
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| I like harem in small amounts, just like CGDCT and isekai. They are quite likeable especially when the MC has a strong, unique personality, at least a part of which could not be swayed by the girls around him. Other factors making up a good harem are: 1. There is no girl unnecessarily abusing the MC, and the MC taking it feeling guilty 2. The other males are not full of jerks, dicks and a-holes. 3. New girls don't get introduced randomly without any solid plot purpose 4. The humor is not 100% reliant on poorly timed fanservice 5. Character development and/or plot progress at a steady rate I personally like it when a MC develops his own character on interaction with people of the opposite sex of different personalities and background. That is why I don't care even if it's a reverse harem (slightly harder to watch, cause otoko da!) Regarding the romance concept, I think R+V Season II manga handles it perfectly. High School DxD novel adopts polygamy in a believable manner. Trinity Seven has a alluring protagonist. Date a Live has a great story. The elements are all there, it's just that there is hardly any effort to bring them together to get a good product of media. Sometimes understanding various people around you can help you understand yourself - this is the theme I pry for in this genre... Too bad, it barely happens... |
| "All truth is meaningless. In the end, 'meaning' comes from the mind of each individual human. Even when there is a single truth, it can mean different things to different individuals. The truth has no meaning in itself!" - Erika Furudo |
| Harems are fine when they feel earned. Problem is 95% of the time they aren't, your average generic LN isekai protagonist has girls literally falling into his lap every five seconds and then falling in love with him for some dumb reason five seconds later. |
| It's a trope that belongs in a very stinky place, at the bottom of a heap of trash, located in Rancid city. Don't stick it into anything that isn't ecchi/hentai tagged, basically. |
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Brinxen said: Before we get ahead of ourselves, let's acknowledge the fact that both my idea of harem and your idea of harem is obviously just our personal tastes and is not "groupthink" or whatever the fuck you just said. I don't give a shit. Nobody with anything worthwhile to say has ever opened up with asserting relativism. Brinxen said: Of course, a harem anime is more focused on the girls and their interactions with the MC. So, why is it such a crazy idea to expect that the MC, the MAIN CHARACTER would be interesting? Most harem anime also depend upon the girls having interesting personalities too, so why is it absurd to think that the MC can't have an interesting personality too? It's not absurd to want the character to be interesting. But that's not pressing him as a primary element of the utmost importance that dominates the entire discussion and everything that surrounds it. That's what most of this thread amounts to, that's what much of the broader issue people take with harems and tend to express amounts to on this board, and that's what your post seem to be getting at. I don't respect the level emphasis people tend to put on an MC in a harem. It's overwrought and it doesn't take the genre itself into consideration enough. If I had an issue with people disliking bland harem MCs, I'd be quoting that and arguing that whenever I've never even challenged somebody on that because I don't care if they're critical of that element, that's all fair game. The extent to which it dominates the discussion of the genre and the levels of importance its ascribed seem utterly ridiculous to me, though. Brinxen said: Also, if "too many people" start caring about the MC, I think it's a good idea to appeal to the masses and MAKE fucking interesting MCs. After all, the whole reason harem and ecchi even exists is so that they can appeal to the masses who want to see that kind of anime. Except you're talking about two different masses. H&E exists to appeal to an audience/demographic that wants this kind of content, and the masses you mention first are people who usually dislike these things and want it to be a different type of work entirely. This is why series like TWGOK and Monogatari tend to get praised by these people - ones that rip out the structure and focus and fall more in line with mainstream/"normal" anime - and they tend to start off their posts "I don't like harems, but..." Appealing to the people who give a shit about what you do should be infinitely more important than appealing to the people who don't, at least ideally. Not everything needs to be about as much mass appeal to as many people as possible. Niches are fine. Brinxen said: It's literally NATURAL to care about the MC because he's... the main character and is sharing screen time with the girls. Sure, he can facilitate, but if he's a basic non interesting dumbass, he could literally take MORE attention away from the girls because of how fuckin retarded he is. Infinite Stratos is a good example of this. IS illustrates my issue with this perfectly, actually. They tried to push the dense MC gimmick to an extremity for comedy and he actively sucked attention away from the harem itself, which wasn't a really a bad cast by any means. They tried implanting a personality onto him, giving him something that set him apart and making him a much more important element of the harem dynamic than you'd get out of, Iunno, Ayato from AssWar. And it made Infinite Stratos actively worse, while still totally missing the point of what genre it was a part of and what people were showing up for. Ichika wasn't uninteresting or lacking distinction. He wasn't a bland copy/paste by any means. He had traits that were similar to other harem MCs, but those traits were exacerbated and focused in on much more heavily as an element of the overall dynamic of the cast and how he interacted with it in an attempt at comedy. He was more front and center than the harem itself in many cases with his reactions and showcasing his personality. This 100% set him apart and makes him an inseparable element of what that show did. And it sucked. |
ManabanApr 27, 2020 10:31 AM
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| I flee for harems of any kind. It's really not my cup of tea; same as love triangles; they are most of the time used as a way to make some sort of delusional struggles for the main couple to get together. It's just to easy; you make a charachter who happens just to be sympathetic, or just beautiful, and then three girls/boys fall for them and we, the audience, just know who the charachter will be chosing in the end. Maybe it's because I've never saw an interesting take on the subject. |
Almost always :) . There are 1 or 2 excpetions and even those are 7/10s at best . |
Manaban said: I mean I don't see how making the main character good makes a harem anymore worse are most likely just repeating some misguided drivel that'll actively make most series worse for people who do actually give a shit about them Hayate no Gotoku, Zero no Tsukaima, High School DxD, TWGOK, Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou and Seitokai no Ichizon wouldn't be as good as they are without their main characters as far as I'm concerned Manaban said: I mean the main appeal is seeing lots of girls or guys being attracted towards one guy or girl Harem MCs are facilitators. And they're better being that way than being an unwanted element pulling screentime and focus away from the harem itself. The core appeal of the genre is literally the fucking title of the genre. Everything beyond that depends on everyone's personally expectations like everything between seeing the main character end up with their fav girl or people just yelling like mad men for the main character to stop being blind and to just fuck all the harem members like if nothing else within the context of the story matters Brinxen said: I personally think we are in the wrong ball park for this discussion Of course, a harem anime is more focused on the girls and their interactions with the MC. So, why is it such a crazy idea to expect that the MC, the MAIN CHARACTER would be interesting? Most harem anime also depend upon the girls having interesting personalities too, so why is it absurd to think that the MC can't have an interesting personality too? This idea between you and @Manaban in the discussion feels like its under the assumption harem anime main characters aren't interesting nor have personalities Like if Brinxen you're saying this isn't already something that can be commonly found and like if you Manaban are fighting over the idea that we can't incorporate something that isn't already in the genre But of course interesting comes down to the individual when talking about characters and Ive under these many years on this forum known those who usually don't like harem or ecchi will be default say the main character is bland, generic or self insert for losers because you have to try and justify not liking something by using buzzwords you personally find valid from your own perspective Not to say thats you or anything right now Brinxen Im just bringing it up because camee to mind when reading this Brinxen said: I wouldn't personally say that honestly when looking at Ichika. From what I remember he doesn't steal any screen time from the girls. If anything he a magnet that gives the girls lots of screen time together because they are glued to him It's literally NATURAL to care about the MC because he's... the main character and is sharing screen time with the girls. Sure, he can facilitate, but if he's a basic non interesting dumbass, he could literally take MORE attention away from the girls because of how fuckin retarded he is. Infinite Stratos is a good example of this. BiggSmeller said: BiggSmeller can I just ask how many harem anime you've actually watched after saying this?Almost always :) . There are 1 or 2 excpetions and even those are 7/10s at best . |
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Deknijff said: I mean I don't see how making the main character good makes a harem anymore worse Hayate no Gotoku, Zero no Tsukaima, High School DxD, TWGOK, Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou and Seitokai no Ichizon wouldn't be as good as they are without their main characters as far as I'm concerned Dyslexia isn't illiteracy. I'm saying that a harem shouldn't make itself about the MC and that overfocusing on the MC isn't good for a harem anime, not that having a "good" makes the harem bad. It's not a difficult concept to grasp. Deknijff said: This idea between you and @Manaban in the discussion feels like its under the assumption harem anime main characters aren't interesting nor have personalities Because I don't give a shit whether or not they think that harem MCs tend to be good. It's not the point of the conversation or what I'm arguing against or what I care about talking about right now. If they think that, I'll play along because there's something more important that I want to address here. ----- Mod edit: removed baiting |
BrandonMay 26, 2020 3:34 AM
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Manaban said: Brinxen said: If the anime revolves around the MC's interactions with the girls, the MC in question NEEDS to be INTERESTING. It doesn't, really. The anime/manga in question is infinitely more likely to revolve around the girls in a way that lopsidedly focuses on them, what they're doing, and how they'll respond to a certain context over the MC's role in the interaction. He just needs to be able to set it up, and it'd be counter-intuitive to be a setup to other characters to make them look good/appealing if you're swiping focus and attention away from them. Ideally, it's not at all even close to being a 50/50 dynamic. "Watching a harem anime for the guy" should be a joke that gets tossed around more, because it sounds completely fucking absurd. The emphasis people place on the MC really showcases how utterly detached from the product they are. And it's so ubiquitous that I've watched too many people who are into the genre normally suddenly start caring about the MC because of the absurd emphasis people on this board will place on it, as if they need to validate the genre's worth to people who don't actually give a shit about it and are most likely just repeating some misguided drivel that'll actively make most series worse for people who do actually give a shit about them. It's pathetic, but I guess that's how groupthink tends to operate and not everybody can be a leader. Harem MCs are facilitators. And they're better being that way than being an unwanted element pulling screentime and focus away from the harem itself. The core appeal of the genre is literally the fucking title of the genre. What do you actually enjoy in a harem? If the MC is a facilitator meant to be an agent for more interesting characters to do more interesting things , what are those things? Actually matter of fact, what are your top harem/ecchi series? |
BiggSmeller said: What do you actually enjoy in a harem? It exists on top of other genres invariably, so that can vary, but I like seeing cute girls and fun things are fun. The most basic appeal that the genre has to me isn't especially complicated or anything. If the MC is a facilitator meant to be an agent for more interesting characters to do more interesting things , what are those things? Varies too wildly to make an accurate generalization, but to give it a go, giving them a reason to act intimately or showcase how they respond towards feeling that way or allowing them to act and showcase themselves in their personality in a context that involves a potential mate of the opposite sex. That can be really cute and will give something a different dynamic than you'd get out of showcasing these things outside of that context. Actually matter of fact, what are your top harem/ecchi series? To LOVE-Ru Yosuga no Sora Omamori Himari Zero no Tsukaima Nyan Koi! DearS Nagasarete Airantou Haganai Mayo Chiki NakaImo Rokujouma MonMusu MM! Kore wa Zombie desu Ka OniAi Shomin Sample Asterisk War Those are all my 10s and 9s, at least. Lowest rated ones are OreShura (1) and Masamune-kun no Revenge (2) and most of the ones I've seen fall in the 6 - 8 score range. This list would show that I greatly prefer h&e romcoms over battle harems, but I still like battle harems fine and well and they aren't unrepresented on this list. |
ManabanApr 27, 2020 11:15 AM
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Manaban said: BiggSmeller said: What do you actually enjoy in a harem? It exists on top of other genres invariably, so that can vary, but I like seeing cute girls and fun things are fun. The most basic appeal that the genre has to me isn't especially complicated or anything. If the MC is a facilitator meant to be an agent for more interesting characters to do more interesting things , what are those things? Varies too wildly to make an accurate generalization, but to give it a go, giving them a reason to act intimately or showcase how they respond towards feeling that way or allowing them to act and showcase themselves in their personality in a context that involves a potential mate of the opposite sex. That can be really cute and will give something a different dynamic than you'd get out of showcasing these things outside of that context. Actually matter of fact, what are your top harem/ecchi series? To LOVE-Ru Yosuga no Sora Omamori Himari Zero no Tsukaima Nyan Koi! DearS Nagasarete Airantou Haganai Mayo Chiki NakaImo Rokujouma MonMusu MM! Kore wa Zombie desu Ka OniAi Shomin Sample Asterisk War Those are all my 10s and 9s, at least. Lowest rated ones are OreShura (1) and Masamune-kun no Revenge (2) and most of the ones I've seen fall in the 6 - 8 score range. This list would show that I greatly prefer h&e romcoms over battle harems, but I still like battle harems fine and well and they aren't unrepresented on this list. Wouldn't you saying it exists on top of other genres and that it "varies" imply that perhaps what you enjoy is more so things/events relating to those "other genres" more than the harem aspects? But the only thing ive seen out of those you listed is zero no tsukaima and yosuga no sora? *SPOILER* Dont they like drown together in YnS? Lmaao I forgot what happens but it seems the majority of your anime-watching pleasure stems from seeing cute character interactions and fun light-hearted events? As in thats what you watch the majority of anime for more than like a thrilling plot or "deep, mature , intelligent" characters and their development. |
BiggSmeller said: Wouldn't you saying it exists on top of other genres and that it "varies" imply that perhaps what you enjoy is more so things/events relating to those "other genres" more than the harem aspects? Not really, no. When it comes to Harem&Ecchi I've always been partial to the latter over the former, but like I also said, harem elements add a dynamic I really enjoy that would be entirely absent if they weren't present. Just because they also have to be a comedy or a battle show or whatever doesn't mean that I don't care about the harem elements at all. Lmaao I forgot what happens but it seems the majority of your anime-watching pleasure stems from seeing cute character interactions and fun light-hearted events? As in thats what you watch the majority of anime for more than like a thrilling plot or "deep, mature , intelligent" characters and their development. Yeah, that seems accurate enough. I'm not against things trying to be deep or serious - Kaiji is one of my top 5 faves and it definitely takes itself seriously - but I've got a noted bias towards things that don't carry themselves with a ton of severity or that I can't treat with absolute severity. Considering my career, I feel like using anime as a form of escapism into "fun" things makes perfect sense. My least favorite genre is psych drama, in comparison, which also probably ties into my career background somewhat. |
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| İ almost hate all the Harem shows but Ouran Highschool Host Club is a exception because its fun also there are a lot of likeable charachters ... Most importantly it has a great humor ... İn my opinion ..you should watch it if you havent |
| (I'm considering a harem as a show with 2 or more love interest)I think it depends entirely on how the harem is written. Most harem shows are poorly written with a boring MC, and cardboard girls. But some anime can perfect the harem trope and make it into an masterpiece. |
| So far, the only harem I've ever liked was Ouran, and that's it. I don't like harem at all, because mostly it substitutes plot, the MCs are bland and weak, and I just don't like the concept of not being committed to one. In most harem shows, the characters aren't even characters, they are just trophies. I don't like that concept either. The thing about harem is that most of them are just surrogate series, and I don't like that. I usually like characters who are actually characters. But, I won't rate or judge any series just by looking at the tag harem. Because, an anime might give more than its harem (in the same concept of rating low because abuse exists or stuff like that), but I just don't like harem-centered ones. Also, I'm slowly losing interest for romance lol, I just like a bunch of characters who I can call my children. |
| I don't have much of a problem with it (besides to some issues with female portrayal in anime in general), but it's very much not my thing. If I find the MC to be unlikable or if the girl I most identify with doesn't get what she wants, it just makes me sad. In fact watching any girl get cucked is just disappointing to me whether I identify with them or not. DanMachi is actually the perfect example, I started watching that show but dropped it because I couldn't stand seeing Hestia pining over a guy while he obsesses over someone else. However I recognize that my issue with harem isn't really the show's problem but is my problem. I'm fine with a reverse harem cuz seeing guys get cucked bothers me less for obvious reasons. |
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| only good harems are reverse harems |
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| Strongly depends on the execution. |
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| There's a severe lack of harem anime with hot blooded shonen protagonists with senseis that teach them the way of courting a woman. When that's what harem series are about, I'll give one a go. You can always get my interest with a hot blooded shonen styled protagonists, hence me completing Keijo. |
| I dislike them a lot, when i see a harem genre i'm going to assume it's trash. I wouldn't dare to touch it, of all the harems i have watched not a single one of them were interesting or had any good plot. |
| Harem is far from my favorite genre. Currently watching Shokugeki no Soma and there's a slight harem element there but that's as close as I'll get to that. Reverse harem, however, is a completely different story. I love that shit lol. Bonus if there's a really good story line in it like Akatsuki no Yona and Hanasakeru Seishounen or if it's comedic like Ouran. |
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| I dont really care about harem that much... It's a good thing but to others it isnt. |
| Most of the ones I've seen are just decent. Filled with run-of-the-mill repetitive type of scenearios that are overused. Though when they put in a little effort it makes so much of a difference. Seikrei is an example of a harem done right. |
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Brinxen said: Wanting the MC to be interesting isn't the thing of utmost importance. It is ONE OF THE THINGS that makes a great harem show. I've seen good harem with shit MCs which would have been better with a better MC. Make no mistake, the genre is moulded around the people that consume it, so if enough people consider the MC to be that essential, don't be surprised when that eventually shapes the genre itself. This has been true in literally every medium out there. And the people who consume it aren't typically people like you, that are watching it in hopes of getting a same-gendered character they want to see. Again, watching a harem for the guy sounds like saying "Well I bought playboy to read the articles." Go to other genres if this is all you people want to talk about and reduce it down to something that it's gotten by and had a strong run of success despite apparently being without for so long. Battle shounen is all about the developing the MC. I watched a sports anime recently and I found the MC likable. There's a ton of other shit out there that you don't have to rip out the focus and priorities of our thing just to assimilate it into your hive of having everything be about the guy and his narrative. Brinxen said: Sure man. But since there's a market for both, OBVIOUSLY they would try and capitalize on both. Niches are fine, yeah, but when enough people like the niche stuff, you will get more of it, and eventually the niche becomes the mainstream. Mass Appeal is... pretty important man. It doesn't matter if your show is liked a lot by a few people since that isn't financially viable. Sure, there are some shows that purely exist out of passion, but those aren't sustainable. You need to cater to your market if you want to make niche stuff that doesn't. But these people aren't even part of the market, they're assholes with a dumb opinion online. I don't understand what you're not grasping about this. They barely constitute a peripheral audience and you want to try to position them as people who give a shit just as much as people like me and Dekn and the users at H&E. It's laughable. Look at all of of the users in this thread. How much money would you like the bet that the ones holding the opinions that you're defending here have seen minimal amounts of H&E anime and pirated all of the shit they've seen? In comparison, who do you think is buying up source materials, BDs, these ludicrously overpriced PVC figures, et cetera? It's *not* the people who dislike the whole fucking genre and make it clear that the only exceptions are TWGOK and Monogatari on perfect cue. At best, those people might do something for one of those two series, but we're not seeing more series in either of their styles being made to try to capitalize on that, so I guess that doesn't seem to be the case. Probably because they don't care, and if this show got made they wouldn't fuckin' watch it in the first place. You are greatly overestimating just how much these people are invested in what they're forming an opinion on. A lot of it is just drivel that's having a knock on effect. A few years ago all people talked about was -dere archetypes with this genre and that's why its bad. Nobody does that anymore because the safe opinion is "I want to watch harem anime for the guy." It's the same shit with a different coat of paint that cycles itself out every once in a while, and the hypothetical person forming the opinion has probably seen one or two tops and is just going off of hearsay. If enough people say it, it might be true, right? And, what should be surprising to absolutely nobody, there's a tendency for people who go to a place that's about sharing your opinions to like hearing themselves talk. That opinion doesn't need to be something they care about. Just shit out a one-liner that states something most people won't look at twice and let the people who *do* give a shit have the real convo. Brinxen said: Okay, I retract my statement about Ichika. He wasn't uninteresting or boring MC. I agree with you on the fact that they pushed the dense MC gimmick so hard that it ruined the show for me. Another thing I take issue with is how they show him as this goody two shoes angel who is very innocent and pure, to the point where I already know what he's gonna do next. This means that showcasing him like you said resulted in a very predictable experience. So, instead of making the show worse by being boring, he made the show worse by wasting screentime being more predictable than paint drying. But this doesn't allow the MC to be just a facilitator. For example, NouCome had a hilarious MC with an interesting cast of girls like I said before. So, clearly an interesting MC with a balanced screen time ratio CAN be done. I don't really give a shit about any of this because I think Ichika is bad as is. I haven't seen NouCome and I don't really feel like basing blind faith in your opinion, so I'm not going to press that further. Brinxen said: I'm not saying all this because I hate the genre, but because I want more of this kind of anime, you see? Well, there's always Sports anime. Those tend to have a lot of guys getting a ton of focus and they can be good characters. They even work up a nice sweat playing ball. I'm sure those can fill the void H&E is leaving behind for you, whenever all is said and done and it gets supplanted by whatever. As for me, I'm not up for bastardizing something I give a shit about and selling out and kowtowing to outsiders because it'd reinvigorate the genre by making harems more about the guy. I'd rather keep the current trajectory and be at peace with the natural process of things than see it become this disgusting husk of what it once was. It's better to die a niche than to live on as a sell out. Brinxen said: I didn't realize y'all had discussed already haha. I'm not sure if it's derailed or not, but I do feel like I've stated everything I wanted to state, so it's probably fine to derail. We've both been doing this for over half a decade now. We've even met up and shared a hotel room for a weekend in real life. When I was made head admin of H&E in 2018, I made him my second in command and we restored activity to that place and our club's server is now the second most active that stems from this site, second only to MAL's Official Discord. He can have any opinion he wants and I wouldn't doubt that its at least coming from meaning well, because it's beyond doubt that he gives a shit about our niche. In comparison, you're wanting to make things more marketable to people who don't give a shit about the genre and won't watch it anyway, regardless of whether or not it ticks their boxes. Nobody wins, and for some reason you want to act like this is the path to money. It's just a left arm offering that wouldn't have any meaningful payoff to compensate for that loss. |
ManabanApr 27, 2020 11:02 PM
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| Hate it. Absolutely detest it. Abhor it. Loathe it. Maybe because I haven't seen a harem anime or read a harem manga that's done right, but the usual formulation of drab, boring MC with no saving grace surrounded by stupid-ass women who think with their boobs (male-centric harem) or ditzy, damsel-in-distress, somehow every man and their father thinks she's cute MC with men whose only trait that they have going for them is their pretty, same-face syndrome looks (female-centric harem, or what's commonly called 'reverse harem') just does not appeal to me. Combine that with isekai, and I'm throwing that shit out the window, lmao. I get why it would appeal to some (or most?) people, but it's just not for me. |
 「 I am forever your most devoted believer. 」 |
| honestly i find the writing for harems are really crap. i even tried reverse harems, but the female MCs have the personality have a plastic bag. it makes me barf. |
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| I haven't watched that many harems, but from what I have seen and read they're generally funny enough for me to keep going. |
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| So far the only full blown harem anime I liked was nisekoi, but mainly because of shaft. I don't like it in general, unless when I'm looking for cheap laughs |
Brinxen said: The fuck? This ain't YOUR thing. Get that through your head dude. "Our" genre holy shit. It's not up to you to protect the purity of the harem genre or whatever. It's not, but I can make it absolutely clear that you people exclusively concerned about the MC aren't all that exist. I can also make it clear that most people who complain about this so heavily usually don't even watch this kind of shit very often - if ever - in the first place. Which is what I'm doing. You can all go on your chorus about how make-or-break the MC is, I'll go back to that period from 2007 to 2015 when these shows were made in bulk and (apparently) completely lacked this for the most part. Its all been in decline for years now with less and less being made per season, and I'm at peace with that. I'd rather it continue on that trajectory than bastardize itself to appeal to people who don't give a shit like you want. There's battle shounen. There's sports. There's BL. If you want to see a guy be a huge part of the focus and priority of the series, there you go. Have at thee. You people have everything you want in bulk as is, so fuck off and leave our little shrinking area be. Not everything has to fit into your archetypal mold of whats important to it. Absolutely fuckin' invasive. Brinxen said: You can tell me to fuck off all you want from your precious genre, but am I gonna? No. Of course not. When has that ever worked? I don't expect you to, but it makes it clear that I reject your presence and your opinion. Everything you're trying to represent here, I'm treating with contempt and disgust. It communicates that end pretty well. You're a sell out. A Quisling. Go have fun being a footstool for people who don't give a shit. That's not the type of fan I'm going to be, though. Brinxen said: Imma break this down for you. While it is true that most people don't watch harem for the dude, that's not the point I'm making here. The point I'm making is that the MC in question needs to be interesting, so that he can ADD value to the harem itself. Sure, whatever, on the basis that a good character can add value on the basis of being a good character, albeit with harems I'm still sticking by my assertion that taking attention away from the female cast to focus on the MC too much is a net loss for the genre still. Kore wa Zombie does that rather well, fun MC without just sacrificing its harem elements. Trinity Seven's MC has such a strong cast dynamic with the haremettes that they can still get the majority of the focus and he's still a fun character, albeit kind of a fucking dickhead. But the MC is not so important by himself that he should dominate the discussion to the extent that he does. This is how it works on this board. Every thread, every conversation about the genre gets hijacked with trite bullshit only talking about the fucking guy because it's a loud criticism that people who actually like the show don't tend to challenge all that much, meaning it's completely safe pickings for people who hate the genre or have a pre-disposition about it to have a bitchfit about and get minimal resistance. I'm going to reject that level of importance they're being ascribed. The harem genre doesn't revolve around the MC, it revolves around the harem. God-fucking-forbid we get more outsider-friendly bullshit like TWGOK that's just a glorified hit-it-and-quit-it narrative played on repeat with a battle shounen structure, where nerdy loser guy can use his dating sim knowledge to "conquer" every girl before moving on to wrapping the next one around his finger. That's a harem that a lot of people who want a good MC praise, after all. Brinxen said: That's where you're wrong kiddo. Sure, people who don't like harem anime and using bland MCs as a reason are by and large just echoing the general thought. But, I'm not talking about them either. So, your argument kinda falls apart at that. Do you honestly believe that there are people that don't want a harem anime with a cool interesting MC? Lemme just fill that in for you, THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WANT THAT. Just go to google and type "Harem anime with..." and you'll immediately get "...cool mc, smart mc, op mc" and a lot more. There's a MARKET for it. And where there's a need, the market will try and cater. If I'm overestimating, then you're underestimating. You may be the ones who buy all the figurines and support the harem scene. I applaud you for that, sure. But that doesn't mean that they won't try and cater to the market I spoke about above as well. It's not big or valuable enough to have it tapped into yet. It's why we still get complaints about it to no end. Because, again, it's coming from people who don't actually give a shit and won't watch it even if they did. Markets aren't such a simple fucking concept to where you can just see people saying something a lot and then suddenly make something and latch on a long-term audience for that type of content. Vocal minorities are vocal and can give off an impression of being larger than they actually are, so simply seeing many people ask for something doesn't necessarily translate into success. In this case, we're talking about a vocal minority that's generally predisposed against this type of content and will be a hard-sell at that, even if it did try to cater to them. It's why this void you're talking about has gone unfilled for so long - and it isn't that big of a void to begin with, since, again, it usually comes from people who don't watch the fucking genre in the first place. These people don't actually care. These people are also a vocal minority and the genre tends to thrive the most when it turns its eyes towards people who want to see harems for the fucking harems instead of being able to vicariously live through someone like Keima and the whole show being about him. It'll all crumble. Just like most things that try to zero in on a vocal minority. When World of Warcraft moved to a more casual-friendly model, a lot of people loudly wanted content that harkened back to The Burning Crusade era. Wildstar sought to fill that void. Look how well it turned out. Dead in a few years and the servers are offline. And this vocal minority doesn't have *shit* on that sect of the MMO community in terms of size. And that's coming from an audience that actually tends to consume that type of content in the first place, whereas the people who push for this barely watch/read harems and tend to look at anime for other genres and are parts of different audiences. "Well people say they want it so people will fill that demand" doesn't even fuckin' begin to consider the nuances and complexities involved in what you're trying to argue here. I'm sure Wildstar wished that markets were defined by forum posters. Brinxen said: OK, I guess you're hot shit around here, but why would I give a fuck about any of that? Talking about your big club doesn't pertain to any of our discussion. In spite of our differences sometimes, I'm willing to trust his intent because I know damn well he's not some invasive outsider. Me being just generally awesome is only the secondary point to all of that. Brinxen said: Also, you THINK they won't watch it and I THINK that they will. In the end, it is literally up to the times to dictate which way it sways. So your prediction is meaningless, as much as mine. Your reasoning for why is literally just seeing a bunch of people asking for it in threads and a way-too-specific three word google search. Which is to say that your reasoning for why you think this is complete ass. I can only reiterate what I just said in the part of your post I quoted before this to explain why. Brinxen said: Okay. Let it die. Unfortunately, most genres become diluted over time as the audience evolves and it's meaningless to try and keep a niche as a niche. Well, look at how much H&E we're getting these days compared to 5 or 10 years ago. It's fallen off quite hard. The fad is over, trendchasers have moved on and we're in the aftermath of it. I'm content with this. Better for it to stay like it is than to just be something different. I'd rather it go the way of mecha or mahou shoujo, barely getting any new releases, than watch it sell out to outsiders. Brinxen said: Other than the whole "OURS NOT YOURS DO NOT TOUCH" attitude, I'd say that you really do positively care for the genre. Just open up your mind and understand that your niche is getting pretty popular and with that, comes the evolution of your genre. We're in 2020. Not 2010. The genre isn't more popular with outsiders. Look at the amount of new seasonal releases for H&E stuff. Compare that to any random year from 2007 - 2015. If you discount isekai - which tends to be more about the fucking isekai and the harem is a side element to the power fantasy at best - its getting very little love relative to back then. It's not getting bigger. It's getting smaller. A success here and there isn't reversing that terminal decline, either. The trend is isekai now, some of which have harem elements but it's a far cry from a series that's harem-centric in many cases, like what we're talking about here. That's what's getting made like CGDCT and H&E were a decade ago. And that's the natural process of things. I can accept that, and I can let it be happily without pushing for selling out the shit I claim to be a fan of. |
ManabanApr 28, 2020 12:27 AM
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| Not really fond of the genre, might enjoy it to some extent but I would rather watch other shows instead. |
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| Old harem is fantastic and fun. New harem seems to just be about fan service with all the girls fawning over a complete lego-block of a character. I get that it's wish-fulfillment for male audiences but I want there to be some real depth to it. |
Awoo :3 |
| @Manaban I'm surprised that you have such a low opinion of TWGOK for being a watered-down/normie friendly harem. In our earlier conversation about whether it, Clannad and shows of that nature qualify as harem I got the impression that you think having them under the banner would be good for the genre somehow. Seems a bit contradictory. Am I reading things wrong? |
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epidemia78 said: @Manaban I'm surprised that you have such a low opinion of TWGOK for being a watered-down/normie friendly harem. I like the show itself. It just should be representative of absolutely nothing and I'll resist the idea that it's how a harem should be done. It shouldn't be a poster child for the genre and if other harems are like it then I'm convinced the genre would cease being worthwhile. It's fine in distinction, not in repetition. The negativity I have towards how people interact with it leads to me sounding a lot more critical of the series itself than I am. I have it at like, an 8 or something. epidemia78 said: In our earlier conversation about whether it, Clannad and shows of that nature qualify as harem I got the impression that you think having them under the banner would be good for the genre somehow. Seems a bit contradictory. Am I reading things wrong? I don't really give a shit about Clannad. I've never watched it, and honestly, I'm not really interested in doing so. It could be total dogshit that I wouldn't want associated with the genre because of its lack of quality, for all I know. Mean score is high, but if H&E fans followed mean score we'd be missing out on a lot of great stuff in these genres. My issue is that I dislike your dismissal of the omnibus harem format because I find it limiting to how a harem can present itself structurally. I agreed with Dekn on it one time under a similar premise. Trying to make the jump from "The omnibus structure is still valid for being considered a harem anime" into "You just want this show you couldn't possibly care less about to be included as a harem so you can improve the genre's brand!" is a bit silly. |
ManabanApr 28, 2020 4:24 AM
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Manaban said: epidemia78 said: @Manaban I'm surprised that you have such a low opinion of TWGOK for being a watered-down/normie friendly harem. I like the show itself. It just should be representative of absolutely nothing and I'll resist the idea that it's how a harem should be done. It shouldn't be a poster child for the genre and if other harems are like it then I'm convinced the genre would cease being worthwhile. It's fine in distinction, not in repetition. The negativity I have towards how people interact with it leads to me sounding a lot more critical of the series itself than I am. I have it at like, an 8 or something. Same deal, to a stronger extent, with Monogatari. I dropped like 200 euro on a PVC figure of my favorite character from the series and have it at an 8 or 9 and people convinced I'm a Monogatari hater because I hate how people interact with it. I checked your ratings before asking. 6,6 and 4 for each season. Maybe you were in a bad mood that day. Anyway, it's been seven years since the final season and I don't see any imitators so I guess it's safe to say it has not redefined the genre. No Clannad wannabes either, unfortunately for me. I might have to start playing VNs to get my fix... |
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epidemia78 said: I checked your ratings before asking. 6,6 and 4 for each season. Maybe you were in a bad mood that day. Anyway, it's been seven years since the final season and I don't see any imitators so I guess it's safe to say it has not redefined the genre. No Clannad wannabes either, unfortunately for me. I might have to start playing VNs to get my fix... Huh. I remember disliking the final season, but I thought I had the first two at 8. I wonder if I lowered them out of spite one day ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I kind of don't take scoring things seriously enough to put myself beyond doing that. |
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