Can great art/animation redeem bad writing, and vice versa?

Nov 6, 2019 5:18 AM

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Apr 2017

872

For the first, almost never. The only time it happened to me was with kotonoha no niwa (and the writing wasn't bad, per se, just very mediocre). For the second, much more possible, see bokurano which has just extremely pedestrian art/animation but the writing/story/characters are excellent.

"The problem with defining even an aspect of your personality by something that you like, is that criticism of that product appears to you to be criticism of you personally. I find it to be a very harmful attitude, [...] you can't rationally discuss a product because you've started to define yourself by its very existence."

John Bain

Nov 6, 2019 5:19 AM

#52

TodAboT

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Jan 2018

902

RealTheAbsurdist said:

A lot of people watching Vinland Saga agree the animation is not exactly great, but the writing is phenomenal. I think overall Vinland Saga is still amazing for this reason.

Wait, really?
I doubt that Wit Studio wouldn't make great animation.
Though I'm only on episode 4.

Nov 6, 2019 5:21 AM

#53

TodAboT

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Jan 2018

902

Good Writing can save Bad Animation.
A great example is Hori-san to Miyamura-kun; at least the first two episodes, look terrible.

I feel like maybe Great Animation could save mediocre writing sometimes, but mostly no.

Nov 6, 2019 7:21 AM

#54

Hundreko

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Aug 2016

1083

IMO great art/animation cannot redeem bad writing, while on the other hand great writing to a certain extent can redeem shit art/animation. If it looks like berserk 2016 or is a slide show then probably not, but good writing can make me look past mediocre art/animation

↓ Play AMQ ↓

Nov 6, 2019 12:35 PM

#55

removed-user

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Jul 2018

561867

RealTheAbsurdist said:

Peaceful_Critic said:
Neither or had happened to me yet, so I don't think by themselves, one can make up for the other. Visuals are pretty important during exposition scenes(since no matter what the character says staring at dull art would get boring rather quickly) and I can't imagine a lot of jokes hitting nearly as well without good timing which needs the animation to execute. You also have some scenes that are reliant on visuals such as DR executions or any scene without talking really(Samuari Jack is full of them). Additionally, visuals are a big part of the atmosphere which scores big points for me.
Writing can only save so much if the visuals are awful. Even dialogue-heavy scenes would be awful to sit through since what I'm stuck with facial expressions/gestures that don't convey the emotions that well(making the scene have a lot less of an impact emotionally) and dull settings/designs that I'm forced to constantly look at.

I think your opinion is very interesting, because as @Hrybami pointed out, most people believe in the opposite: that great visuals can't redeem bad writing.

It's not really the opposite of what I think. I agree with the statement above. I just also believe that awful visuals can't be saved with good writing.

Hrybami said:
It's the opposite tho. People are ways harsher than usual with the writing and such when an anime has great art and animation.

Why do you think that?

removed-userNov 6, 2019 1:11 PM

Nov 6, 2019 2:22 PM

#56

KryzakamiHrybami

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Sep 2014

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@Peaceful_Critic that's not exactly what I would think. In my case, I do give extra points for anime if they contain great art or music. From my observation from the forum, people do get harsher with anime if their art is great. My supposition is that art is the first thing we get across when starting a new anime and if the art is straight up impressive from the start, then people tend to set up the bar higher for the other feature of the anime (mostly writing.)

In other words: "Oh so you got great art? then let's see what you have next to offer... an okay writing? How dissapointing. Then I believe that the writing is what putting down this anime..." Art is great but the writing is horrid mode activated.

The show's writing suddenly appear worse than it actually should have been to these people adopting this mindset. It's something I see quite frequently on MAL. I don't feel like quoting anyone, but some people actually admitted me that they do think like that.

It's quite easy to notice too. You take 2 anime relatively similar, but with distinctive art and animation quality, the one with the best art usually is the most criticized for its other features. Not talking about score, just criticism.

Nov 7, 2019 7:34 PM

#57

KlldbyCuriosity

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Dec 2017

469

Rarely, but something can be enjoyable for its art alone

I'll keep wishing for a world where you can be happy.

Nov 7, 2019 8:14 PM

#58

LordQuaz

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Sep 2017

106

I personally weigh the art/animation heavier in my evaluation than I think most people do. I feel that specifically animated mediums - be it cartoons, claymation, anime - are so much to do with the aesthetic, more so than anything live-action. For example, Bebop has remained one of my favorites even though I feel like the writing isn't too far above average because the art and animation is just so excellent.

Nov 7, 2019 8:28 PM

#59

FireRifle64

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Oct 2019

1226

its difficult but it could depending how far on the spectrum the writing is bad or how bad the animation is. Like, looking at Berzerk 2016, Im not sure great writing could fix that CGi, however there are some shows with bad but better CGI than Berzerk and had great writing to it. I think animation or writing can redeem the opposite part but it is not really common not to see that

"Perfection is perception. For me, humanity's imperfections is what makes it perfect"

Nov 7, 2019 8:33 PM

#60

Thegib98

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Jan 2019

424

If you have sat through Glasslip, you will know that this is an absolute no. Beautiful art and animation, but literally nothing ever happens. Probably the most boring 3 hours of my life. Irozoku Sekai was kind of the same, but I actually kind of enjoyed it because the characters (except the MC) were genuinely fun and engaging, so it gets a pass.

Nov 8, 2019 2:33 AM

#61

emraanash

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Oct 2018

762

One PUNCH MAN SEASON 2

SEVEN DEADLY SINS SEASON 4

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Nov 8, 2019 2:53 AM

#62

inim

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Apr 2019

4931

I don't think it's a two sided implication. Great writing can redeem bad art, but not vice versa.

Nov 8, 2019 4:28 AM

#63

Edocchi

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Jun 2016

1932

Short answer : NO

Long answer : NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Nov 8, 2019 11:55 AM

#64

KamisamaHatatan

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Aug 2013

191

I mean SAO is the prime example? Don't you think?

Nov 8, 2019 12:11 PM

#65

removed-user

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Jul 2018

561867

"Can great art/animation redeem bad writing, and vice versa?"
Well let me sum up everything about this through the eyes of normies and elitists.

Normies: SAO, NGNL Demon Slayer, My Hero Academia, Violet Evergarden and everything made by Makoto Shinkai are masterpieces.
Elitists: Vinland Saga, Monster, Ajin, Beastars and everything made by Masaaki Yuasa are masterpieces.

Also Normies: I don't like Vinland Saga, Monster, Ajin, Beastars and everything made by Masaaki Yuasa because of crappy looking CGI and designs are too realistic or weird
Also Elitists: I don't like SAO, NGNL Demon Slayer, My Hero Academia, Violet Evergarden and everything made by Makoto Shinkai because of how bland their stories and characters are. Also, the animation is just for effect.

To me, it just depends on your taste or enjoyment in a certain anime. If you like well developed stories better than animation, that's fine, I completely understand. If you rather just want to sit down and look at the pretty colors (which I know that the majority of the people in this thread isn't), then I won't force myself to say to you that it's shit because the story and characters are shit.

removed-userNov 8, 2019 12:19 PM

Nov 8, 2019 1:05 PM

#66

removed-user

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Jul 2018

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Hrybami said:
@Peaceful_Critic that's not exactly what I would think. In my case, I do give extra points for anime if they contain great art or music. From my observation from the forum, people do get harsher with anime if their art is great. My supposition is that art is the first thing we get across when starting a new anime and if the art is straight up impressive from the start, then people tend to set up the bar higher for the other feature of the anime (mostly writing.)

In other words: "Oh so you got great art? then let's see what you have next to offer... an okay writing? How dissapointing. Then I believe that the writing is what putting down this anime..." Art is great but the writing is horrid mode activated.

The show's writing suddenly appear worse than it actually should have been to these people adopting this mindset. It's something I see quite frequently on MAL. I don't feel like quoting anyone, but some people actually admitted me that they do think like that.

It's quite easy to notice too. You take 2 anime relatively similar, but with distinctive art and animation quality, the one with the best art usually is the most criticized for its other features. Not talking about score, just criticism.

I more so meant why do you think people are harder on better-looking shows. You still answered what I wanted so it's fine either way.

I can see your logic and I don't really disagree. However, I would like to add those good visuals (which aren't just pretty) can in a lot of cases make the writing look better. For instance, a lot of what the Yumeko says has the same underlying meanings(it doesn't go deeper than "I like to gamble because of the stakes and unpredictable nature of it"-Yumenko after every gambling game in the series), so the facial expressions are really what makes her character. Not saying the writing is bad(I do still like how her character is written), just that the repetitiveness and lack of depth would probably be more of a bother for a lot of people if the facial expressions weren't there.

removed-userNov 8, 2019 2:03 PM

Nov 8, 2019 1:07 PM

#67

Homeforcringe

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Oct 2019

35

Well for vice versa yes but for Art redeeming bad writing no. I absolutely hate the When They Cry art style but the story line and the idea of it is so smart.

Nov 8, 2019 1:11 PM

#68

LuzNoceda

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Jan 2017

560

Good writing can redeem bad art or animation, but good art or animation cannot redeem bad writing. The substance of the show is the most important thing.

Nov 8, 2019 1:27 PM

#69

removed-user

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Jul 2018

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Personally I do not think anything can save poor writing. Poor animation on the other hand isn't as big of an issue since visuals tend to be more subjective.

Nov 8, 2019 1:28 PM

#70

Xstasy

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May 2019

3565

Writing is more important then animation and pretty colors just like the gameplay is more important then the graphics.

Nov 8, 2019 1:36 PM

#71

Sphinxter

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Mar 2019

2478

There's Blame!, which has been exceptionally well received, but mostly lacks writing altogether; it's not that the writing is bad; it's mostly that it's not there. This book lives solely by the art.

Xstasy said:
just like the gameplay is more important then the graphics.

If that is so, then why do so many spend their time in this terrible massive multiplayer game called "real life"?

It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate".

— Bertrand Russell

Nov 8, 2019 2:18 PM

#72

removed-user

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Xstasy said:
Writing is more important then animation and pretty colors just like the gameplay is more important then the graphics.

The difference is that games aren't something you watch in a lot of its genres(with the main exception being VNs). You simply play it. Being a game you are forced to interact with it differently than a show which you can only watch. So it's not really a fair comparison.

@Hrybami

Just letting you know that I edited my last comment to you.

removed-userNov 8, 2019 2:27 PM

Nov 8, 2019 2:47 PM

#73

johnbradshaw

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Mar 2015

211

I'm all for the story. So if the art is exactly great or just straight up bad, I won't exactly care as long as the story is good, but I'm kinda bothered that such good stories don't deserve a treatment like that. On the other side, great animation/ art can not redeem a bad writing story no matter how.

The world is not beautiful. Therefore, it is.

Nov 8, 2019 2:58 PM

#74

KryzakamiHrybami

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Sep 2014

9575

Peaceful_Critic said:

Hrybami said:
@Peaceful_Critic that's not exactly what I would think. In my case, I do give extra points for anime if they contain great art or music. From my observation from the forum, people do get harsher with anime if their art is great. My supposition is that art is the first thing we get across when starting a new anime and if the art is straight up impressive from the start, then people tend to set up the bar higher for the other feature of the anime (mostly writing.)

In other words: "Oh so you got great art? then let's see what you have next to offer... an okay writing? How dissapointing. Then I believe that the writing is what putting down this anime..." Art is great but the writing is horrid mode activated.

The show's writing suddenly appear worse than it actually should have been to these people adopting this mindset. It's something I see quite frequently on MAL. I don't feel like quoting anyone, but some people actually admitted me that they do think like that.

It's quite easy to notice too. You take 2 anime relatively similar, but with distinctive art and animation quality, the one with the best art usually is the most criticized for its other features. Not talking about score, just criticism.

I more so meant why do you think people are harder on better-looking shows. You still answered what I wanted so it's fine either way.

I can see your logic and I don't really disagree. However, I would like to add those good visuals (which aren't just pretty) can in a lot of cases make the writing look better. For instance, a lot of what the Yumeko says has the same underlying meanings(it doesn't go deeper than "I like to gamble because of the stakes and unpredictable nature of it"-Yumenko after every gambling game in the series), so the facial expressions are really what makes her character. Not saying the writing is bad(I do still like how her character is written), just that the repetitiveness and lack of depth would probably be more of a bother for a lot of people if the facial expressions weren't there.

Indeed.

Example of animation being part of the identity of the story/characters are pretty rare. While to some extent, we could agree that animation is always part of the writing. Meaning that non-verbal things the characters do like the face expression or just the events happening on screen matter on the story/character. The writing can be conveyed through animation as well such as Texnolyze's first episode or the Angel's egg movie in which there is no line of dialogue in both case. If this is successful depends on if the art and animation is good. Or even simplier: breathtaking scenery help me feeling the intensity of the script read by the voice actor. So the art/animation really contribute to the other feature of an anime and seems to be an intimate part of the writing as a whole. Without them we would just be hearing voice record which I assume would be a totally different experience.

Nov 8, 2019 3:47 PM

#75

Demarcation

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Dec 2018

77

A good animation can save bad writing because animation is story-telling in another form, it compensates for writing by artistically telling the story, it's like when you look at an abstract art but you don't understand the content even though you're still able to appreciate it.
On the other hand, a good writing can't save bad animation because bad animation literally defeats the entire purpose of anime as a media, in this case there is no point in consuming anime when you can simply read its manga/novel counterpart.

A little bit of precision for a large amount of clarity

Nov 8, 2019 4:46 PM

#76

removed-user

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Jul 2018

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Hrybami said:

Peaceful_Critic said:

I more so meant why do you think people are harder on better-looking shows. You still answered what I wanted so it's fine either way.

I can see your logic and I don't really disagree. However, I would like to add those good visuals (which aren't just pretty) can in a lot of cases make the writing look better. For instance, a lot of what the Yumeko says has the same underlying meanings(it doesn't go deeper than "I like to gamble because of the stakes and unpredictable nature of it"-Yumenko after every gambling game in the series), so the facial expressions are really what makes her character. Not saying the writing is bad(I do still like how her character is written), just that the repetitiveness and lack of depth would probably be more of a bother for a lot of people if the facial expressions weren't there.

Indeed.

Example of animation being part of the identity of the story/characters are pretty rare. While to some extent, we could agree that animation is always part of the writing. Meaning that non-verbal things the characters do like the face expression or just the events happening on screen matter on the story/character. The writing can be conveyed through animation as well such as Texnolyze's first episode or the Angel's egg movie in which there is no line of dialogue in both case. If this is successful depends on if the art and animation is good. Or even simplier: breathtaking scenery help me feeling the intensity of the script read by the voice actor. So the art/animation really contribute to the other feature of an anime and seems to be an intimate part of the writing as a whole. Without them we would just be hearing voice record which I assume would be a totally different experience.

I think I disagree(not sure if you meant the actual movement of characters since a lot of people misuse the word animation), characters having their identity partly around design is common. For example, a major plot point in Peach Girl which was established from episode 1 is how her tanned skin affects people's opinions of her(i.e. Okayasu stating that he likes how healthy and athletic she looked because to get tanned you need to spend a lot of time outside and how people thought of her as someone who sleeps around a lot since pale skin is associated with innocence and purity) and her low self esteem from having it(since Japan's beauty standard has the ideal being fair skin). Another example would be Toradora where both mains have their character design as a reflection on what others think of them. Seeing Ryuuji as scary and delinquent like while Taiga is named palmtop because of how aggressive she is in spite of her size(which like Peach Girl was established in the first episode as important). Another instance of this is in Blend S where Maika would frequently do imitating looks by accident in contrast to the sweeter, more polite personality she actually has.

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Can great art/animation redeem bad writing, and vice versa?

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