Best Anime of its Genre...Ever?

Kaioshin_Sama said:

Moreso bizarre reasoning. If your only goal is to get random people to notice it more by hyping it up or ranking it up on some sight then okay, but there's like zero guarantee that they'll actually come to like it and it could end up resulting in negative word of mouth to their friends if it doesn't live up to the immense hype just the same as it could positive word of mouth. Though if you are absolutely convinced in some universal appeal or perfection inherent to Clannad that's probably not a worry for you. Just fair warning though, the pandoras box is kind of open right now as far as people being wary of hyped up Kyoani shows. A better time for what you are trying to do would have been when the show aired.

Tachii said:
LOL. That isn't 'fanboyism', that's fanaticism. :(

But the definition of fanboy is so vague on the Internet I can't really even identify who fits the category anymore since it differs from people to people.

hardwood198 said:
Although i have to admit the giant deus ex machina at the end made it bad.... but then again has such an ending been performed before? i mean, 2 deaths plus suffering.... it isn't easy to put a sad ending to that and make the ending beautiful.

burntlettuce said:

Over all Clannad Movie>Clannad>Clannad As

burntlettuce said:

AS does get a lot better in the middle of the season, i enjoyed the interaction with Nagisa and Tomoya and seeing their relationship grow was enjoyable. I also enjoyed the harsh reality that Tomoya had to face with Nagisa passing. Episodes 17-19 were probably some of the best episodes i had seen awhile and if the series had ended here it would be great, worthy of an 8 or 9 however it doesn't.

setsuna91 said:

really? IMO, Clannad Movie is bad, i think it just a Beta version/prototype for clannad series lol
yeah, but no clannad movies = no another clannad lol
Clannad AS > Clannad >>>>>>> Clanand Movie ^^


oh well, you're right about this
just as same as clannad, Clannad AS is a lil meh early chapter and got better in the middle and got the best in the last ^^

AirStyles said:

...(sorry i cut it, cuz it's too long =) )
everything and everything. (Including the first 4 arcs and the ending) Makes this series a perfect 10 for me. And I am not a generous person when it comes to 10.

setsuna91 said:

okay the first 4 arcs is cool and meaningful, but it made clannad AS' plot become unclearly
maybe for some ppl that had played visual novel before watched the series(including me ^^) would be very easy to understand the plot
but how about ppl that doesn't know about clannad yet?

well afterall, i love yukine's arc =) so no problem for me

burntlettuce said:
By no means is every arc meaningful(That is if you take in account both the first season and second season). Fukko arc was a waste of time story wise(Yes it was "cute" and enjoyable) but characters gain no depth, story would've been the same either way.

Clannad AS first 10 episodes or so were more filler to me. It focused on side characters and the story's weren't even that good. I would've much rather had it focused on the main characters from the first season since you don't really get to see them a lot.

As i stated in my above post, the middle of the season was really good. I agree that every episode from 10-19 was meaningful and worth watching. And yes i did get teary eyed at the end of episode 18. However as i stated they went and ruined that, this show has the biggest cop out i have ever seen. I mean they push so hard for the good bittersweat ending and then BAM pull all back.

However i knew my argument would fall on deaf ears, sadly most clannadheads(Again MOST) are just as bad Narutotards...>.>

AirStyles said:
As for Naruto...

Yea, you may think is similar to Clannad. But whoever have just read what I wrote above... Will absolutely got nothing to say about how Naruto and Clannad is similar.

Naruto: "I will become Hokage and fix all this."
Pain: "I am dying, I hate you, but somehow I believe you, and after all that fight and waste of chakra blah blah blah, I manage to revive them all. Go Naruto, it is your destiny!"

WTF IS THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is absolutely no explanation of WTF is going on! I got angry just for writing this.

LucySky said:

He didn't say that the anime are similar. Read his post again. He meant that many of the fans are similar in their level of fanaticism and inability to accept criticism of the show.

usasoldiern said:
@ Baman. Clannad wasn't even supposed to be tragic to begin with, I think you wanted it to be and that's why you were dissapointed in the ending. And even then, that's no reason to give it a 5 or whatever you gave it. You yourself have said on these messageboards that you enjoyed clannad as a whole, I do believe. And i'm not saying that you even should give it over that rating, I just wish you would tell us more of your perceived "faults".

Also, after seeing Honey & Clover it's hard to say which is better in the genre. I suggest anyone who likes romance/drama to check that series out.

setsuna91 said:
@AirStyles : well your explanation sound make sense, Sorry if i make some misunderstandings ^^ but i just tell what i saw from Clannad

for me, the first 4 arcs is still unfocused, it told to much about side character, but i saw this as an unique plot of Clannad AS(Also Clannad), which it has so many interestng side story

burntlettuce said:
No this isn't the best of its Genre, most overrated though. First season of Clannad was definitely better then AS, and the movie is superior to both.

First season of Clannad seemed like your typical harem anime(after you got past the ridiculous long ark of Fuuko which in the end didn't really matter). It had a lot of comedy and was overall more entertaining the AS.

AS however on the other hand is so overrated it is not even funny. AS starts with exploring minor characters that no one really cares about. It totally abandons all main characters and focus's only on side characters, with some of the most over the top trying to make you feel sad story's i have ever seen.

AS does get a lot better in the middle of the season, i enjoyed the interaction with Nagisa and Tomoya and seeing their relationship grow was enjoyable. I also enjoyed the harsh reality that Tomoya had to face with Nagisa passing. Episodes 17-19 were probably some of the best episodes i had seen awhile and if the series had ended here it would be great, worthy of an 8 or 9 however it doesn't.

No instead this show totally destroys any heartwrenchful emotion that the viewer had. The need to have a happy ending drove me totally crazy. The death of Nagisa and the significance of Tomoya growth and acceptance of his father and his own child is totally ruined by the ending.



Not true at all, the Clannad Movie did an amazing job with the ending and it didn't involve Nagisa coming back.

As for the best of it's genre no. Nana will always be one of the best romance anime's just for its very realistic plot. And for an anime that actually goes over the relationship after they get together then Itazura Na Kiss is much better then this.

Over all Clannad Movie>Clannad>Clannad As

If AS had stopped at episode 19 then i probably would've giving it a higher ranking but it didn't, so a 4/10 is what it gets from me.

Kaioshin_Sama said:


Wow, I don't think I've ever agreed with another persons assement of Clannad After Story more. I wouldn't be quite so harsh when assigning a final score (I was actually trying to award points for anything I thought was well done and ended up somewhere between a 6 and 7 tilted over to a 7 on account of the production values being given some care that sadly Kyoani doesn't seem to give their newer shows anymore), but I definitely agree that it should have ended at episode 19, that the first half was kind of pointless and irrelevant to the second half (other than making sure every character in the game got worked into the story somehow) and that it just went way overboard on the depressing parts of the story to the point where it came across as forced and overwrought when it probably didn't need to at all.

Though where I will take a step further than you is where you say that Clannad After Story is so overrated it's not funny. To me it has come to define the term and is my current example of the most overrated anime out there period. I can hardly take seriously that this show is supposed to be the best of it's genre let alone one of the best anime's ever created.

My top anime don't consistently have obvious issues to which I can point to such as a bait and switch ending (one that was counterproductive to the message the show had delivered immediately prior to it), lame comedy (this cost the show more in my eye than any other category and especially because there's just so damn much of it that it's not even funny. I swear Kyoani/Key and comedy just completely rub me the wrong way like nobodies business and Sunohara may just be the most annoying, eyeroll inducing, and just plain stupid characters I have ever seen in an anime period), overwrought melodrama (did every arc really need to have some tragic twist seemingly specifically added in order to get people to cry), insignificant character arcs (Yukine specifically, but also Fuko somewhat) and hype hype hype without the larger share of the expected payoff (not really the shows fault granted).

Still episodes 10-19 or so could have made a great OVA. Especially since they ditched the lame attempts at comedy and actually managed to focus a bit on the whole family theme that this show is supposed to be about before the final couple episodes took that message and ran it through the mud a few times until it was barely relevant anymore. Happy ending or not, the death of Ushio served no purpose other than to tack on one last overwrought melodramatic scene before the end. Damn you Jun Maeda....is that really your only gimmick?

Anyway it feels good to finally get that off my chest without to much fear of rabid fans trying to make my life miserable now because I took serious issue with the way this story was handled. I could never get away with posting this while the show was airing.

usasoldiern said:
@ Baman. Clannad wasn't even supposed to be tragic to begin with, I think you wanted it to be and that's why you were dissapointed in the ending. And even then, that's no reason to give it a 5 or whatever you gave it. You yourself have said on these messageboards that you enjoyed clannad as a whole, I do believe. And i'm not saying that you even should give it over that rating, I just wish you would tell us more of your perceived "faults".

Baman said:
The viewers can't know how something is supposed to be before we see it, and I saw AS going towards an obviously realistic and tragic route with some quite well written character growth and then suddenly taking a U turn into happiness.
I enjoyed Clannad as a whole, not AS.

AS was singlehandedly destroyed for me by the sudden happy ending. All this about the light orbs never struck me as being important from the start so it did not suggest anything about such a deus ex machina popping out.
Yes, I wanted it to be a tragedy, as that is where it seemed to be heading, and it appeared to be doing a great job with it at that, which is why it's so deplorable to see it all thrown away. It's always frustrating to see something that shows great promise suddenly slide down a cliff and into a generic and uninspired happy ending.
The comedy that reinforced the first season was lacking in AS, and most of the characters I liked hardly even appeared in it, which did not help either way.

Baman said:
Well, even if your assessment of it is correct, it doesn't change the fact that it could have been a great tragic realism story but ended up discarding all that in order to get a run of the mill happy ending.

AirStyles said:


Like you, I was pissed off about the sudden change.

And unlike you, I finally understood the story and loved it ^_^. It is my own fault for not understanding the story the first time round.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
Okay so apparently I can't state my honest feelings about the show without rabid fanboys screaming at me. Oh well....clearly Clannad is perfect and without a single flaw or aspect to dislike and if I didn't like something about it means I clearly must have not understood it's absolute splendid divinely ordained perfection.

Fine here's why Jun Maeda needs to improve. He simply can't resist having that same old tragic twist at the end of an arc and will even cloud his own message in order to do so. Clannad had already delivered a solid message when Tomoya had decided to stay and look after Ushio. It was as if to see that he realized family meant pulling through the tragic loss of a loved one in order to continue your responsibility to the unit. This meant that Tomoya realized that even though Nagisa was lost that moping about it and ignoring Ushio's existence was like being a deadbeat dad and just plain wrong. That was what I found so great about the message of episode 18, but then Maeda's absolute necessity to have a tragic twist lead to Ushio dying and then eventually Nagisa coming back, which essentially destroyed that great message. Instead of being about realizing your responsibility as a father, it was like it was saying, "don't worry dead loved ones can come back". If the ending had been explained as him having died and gone to heaven where he could be with them I could except it, but here it's just substituting a strong message about family, with one that is so weak it barely qualifies.

I can't even begin to tell you how much I would have been ready to give this series an 8 or even a 9 if they had decided to end this on the note of episode 19 or so where Ushio was still okay and not dying of the same Maeda Classic Mysterious Sickness Syndrome (I think he's a complete hack if people must know and in fact have welcomed his departure from Key for giving their future games a potential breath of fresh air and a chance to do something revolutionary again. He was honestly holding them back like nobody's business) Tomoya had accepted his responsibilities as a father and chose to remember Nagisa through her.

So yeah, go ahead and tell me Airstyles why I didn't understand the story and why somehow Nagisa and Ushio coming back is better than Tomoya deciding to live together with Ushio and honour Nagisa's memory by being a father to their child. I'm sure it has to clearly be the former which is the better idea because everything Clannad does I must accept and like (apparently even the comedy) since it's oh so perfectly told in every way.

I can't even begin to tell you how much I would have been ready to give this series an 8 or even a 9 if they had decided to end this on the note of episode 19 or so where Ushio was still okay.

Basically you understand Clannad fully and all of our opinions are just wrong and don't matter...sigh i am done with this thread, like i said we might as well be arguing with narutards >.>

AirStyles said:


Okazaki Tomoya is no where close to a perfect man to begin with.

A delinquent bum. Who had a screwed up childhood, at least in his opinion and his mental state. Then he found Nagisa, pour every bit of his feelings into the relationship. Then... Furukawas as his new family.

Then suddenly, everything he lived for, just died on a winter night, the night of Ushio's birth. If you watched the previous few episodes leading up to the death of Nagisa, you'll realize he'd rather Nagisa to abort Ushio if it means that Nagisa will be safe. All he's thinking about is Nagisa.

To add to that, he have been questioning whether Nagisa should have known him, he believe Nagisa would be safer if she never met him.

Now, back to episode 16, the pain that Nagisa went through, the long winter night, with no midwife, doctor and little help. He is mentally crushed by the event. The guilt that he felt after the death of Nagisa. Life, is a disaster in his point of view.

and lastly, why somehow Nagisa and Ushio coming back is better then Tomoya deciding to live together with Ushio and honour Nagisa's memory by being a father to their child?

one question, why is the light orb ever introduced?

Nagisa, was revived by the city once, the city is supernatural to begin with.


"don't worry dead loved ones can come back"
If that's the message you get from watching Clannad... I really don't know what you have been seeing from Clannad.

What I learn from Clannad series, is indeed only the title.

CLANNAD
Clannad. Family/Clan in another language.
From Tomoyo to Tomoya, what is a family, a family may not be direct, but friends that is like Family. Yukine, family in the outside. Family and value. That, is the ultimate message CLANNAD is trying to spread. Again, Family value.

If you've paid close attention to the show, everything that happen, family is involced. Fuuko, Kotomi, Nagisa, Sunohara's, Yukine, Misao, Tomoya.

The story, is CLANNAD.

But you're not getting or even trying to get what I'm saying because in your eyes it seems that Clannad must be flawless and therefore anything somebody disliked about it you are trying to blame and insult them for. This is exactly what Baman and Burntlettuce were trying to say when they compared Clannad fanboys to Narutards. It's the inability to accept that somebody could find fault with their favourite show.

Tomoya starting his new life with Ushio almost to nothing

It was looking like Tomoya was already starting to overcome the loss of Nagisa a little through his bonding with Ushio and I felt that would have been an incredibly fitting end with the message that after a significant loss of a loved one there is always something more to life and that Tomoya had realized this.

but you seem to think Clannad is absolutely flawless and thus that everything that happened in it is for the better.

I appreciate your passion for the story, but not all of us think everything that comes out of Jun Maeda's head is perfection.

AirStyles said:
whatever....

I don't mind either way...

it's been fun arguing with people. ^_^

no harm done right?

usasoldiern said:


I don't think so. And, at least you can back up your argument.

Kaioshin_Sama said:


How exactly didn't I back up my argument? Also if it's not fun to have a heated debate and still be able to share a metaphorical drink and cocktail afterward like gentleman then why do you even get involved? We're just talking about television here after all. If you think there's been any lasting harm done then go for it and tell me why.

usasoldiern said:


I was comparing Airstyles to most clannad fans in general, not you. You had it covered.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
Where I disagree with them though is that ending on Ushio's death would have been any more of a fitting ending than ending with the happy ending we got. That would solve absolutely nothing and actually would have been even worse than what we got as an ending. In my opinion the best scenario would have been that the story ended on the note we had even before Maeda had the chance to do his tragic twist thing with her.

Baman said:
Well, that was really what I thought would have been the best too. Ending it with Ushio dying would make it into a wonderful nihilistic tragedy, but that wouldn't really fit with the rest of the series, while a more tragic realistic ending with them carrying on without the mother would be quite good.

Making Ushio die at all was just overdoing the drama, and even worse that she died form Space AIDS or whatever.
I mean, honestly, fifteen minutes with a medical encyclopedia or Wikipedia for that matter should be enough to find a proper disease.
It's aggravating, but then again, it is a widespread affliction, even LoGH suffered from it in the end.

-Shio said:

Key Syndrome strikes again =O

usasoldiern said:
Your right, but it isn't as though Key is the only one to do it. Like Baman pointed out. But, to me, it isn't that big a deal to use similar themes or motifs. Hell, even the most famous directors and authors do it.

Baman said:
Well, It would depend on how it is used. In LoGH's case, it was a plot device to kill a certain character in order to show that he had done his part in history, and the mystery surrounding the disease was an important part of the deal, IIrc, the same was true for Air, with it all being due to some curse or whatnot.
In Clannad however, the fact that the disease was unknown did not seem to play a very important role, and the same effect could have been achieved with pretty much any lethal disease, so it seems more like the creators were to lazy to do the research.

usasoldiern said:


I always thought that Nagisa's health was related to the state of the city. All the changes to the city were effecting her health for the worse, because her father "prayed" to the city when she was near death as a child to save her.

Hopefully, if someone can remember this better they can clear this up.

AirStyles said:


Nagisa's death is rather important for Tomoya to turn into zombie human. Ushio brought Tomoya back.

and Finally, Ushio's death is the key to the activation of Light Orb of Happiness. Without Ushio's death, the Light Orb will never be in use and Tomoya will forever live without Nagisa.

Ushio serves well... 1 purpose alone. The activation of Light Orb.Without Ushio, he'll never meet his grandma, and will never get along with his father, will not get a hold of light orb of happiness, and will not really know the value of life and accepting changes.

Sometimes, we have to think about what the death really means instead of whether a death is real or not. The death is necessary for the story to turn into a happy ending. The death is not completely pointless.

It's taking away real happiness and replacing it with fake happiness.

It's too much, too fast, and with too little reasoning as to why it needs to end like that.

AirStyles said:


I don't get that...




That, I agree. It is too fast, thus resulting in people confused by the story, they should have take away the final Fuuko moments so that the story may be better explainted.. That way, people may be able to understand the story better.

usasoldiern said:


They should've cut Fuuuko's time down, but they couldn't completely cut it out. Because, then the viewer won't realize that Ushio is the girl in the alternate world.

And, I can't really agree with the false happiness thing.

AirStyles said:


Errr... remember the girl from another call the junk bot papa and said he sang dango daigazoku song,,, I think it's rather obvious.

usasoldiern said:


Crap, I forgot about that. Yeah, I guess they could've cut it out. Damn, Airstyles your like a Clannad encyclopedia.