| If talent works hard, the hardworker with no talent will lose every time @TKotarou |
AxBattler said: @TheBrainintheJar Of course everyone who compete at the highest level also need to train. But because they do, it inevitably means that the less talented won't be able to enter those leagues no matter how much harder than train.. because there is a limit as to how hard you train before it counter-productive (i.e. end up injured because you did not rest enough). But both of them have to train in order to discover if they have talent. So hard work is more important. No matter how talented you are, you need to work hard in order to discover that. |
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AxBattler said: TheBrainintheJar said: But both of them have to train in order to discover if they have talent. So hard work is more important. No matter how talented you are, you need to work hard in order to discover that. Talent is, by dictionary definition a natural aptitude. So I do not agree that they need to work particularly hard to discover they are talented at something. Because from the get go, they will breeze past their peers and before long will catch up and surpass their teachers. Mozard started composing at the age of three. It's unthinkable that at that age, anyone would be "working hard", yet it is just not something that a typical three years old can do even raised in a family of musicians. That is true talent, which is also exceptionally rare. I suspect that most kids you see ripping it on a music instrument on YouTube are not spectacularly talented (I am sure talent come on a scale) but practiced a lot to be that good. So you can definitely become pretty amazing in the eye of the average person if you train hard from a young age. But if you meet someone with real talent, you'll probably know before long if not right away. Late bloomers may be one exception. But aside than being even more uncommon from people who discover their talents from childhood, it's usually not a case where they work at it all their life and suddenly become really great at it, but a case where they decide to try something later in life and become really great at it. While it is likely that they had to work hard for it, it's pretty hard for most people to reach world class level at what they do just by working really hard.. though you may still be able to become pretty good. Honestly, I like the message that with hard work you can surpass a genius. It's positive, and we all have to play with the cards with are dealt the best we can even without any kings or aces. How many cases are there like Mozart? How good were Mozart's compositions at the age of three? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| @TheBrainintheJar If you have discovered your talent through hard work, then you've discovered a 'skill' not a talent (in which case, it wont be a discovery). Talent is always there, it is never 'discovered'. Those who have a natural aptitude for something soon find it out -- without hard work. It is true that no one by birth knows what he/she is most talented at, but it takes only some 'trying out', not 'hard work'. The general education provided in our schools usually gets the job done of providing opportunities to the talented to discover their interests. |
| IMO The ultimate combination for career success is good work ethic, talent/skill, knowledge, luck and good foresight/awareness/planning. Because really if you lack any one of these factors, you may fail to achieve much in a career. For example, here's how some examples of how people can fail; 1. Talented person: So they're really talented and they work hard. However they get treated like a doormat at work because they let people take advantage of them. Instead of getting that promotion that they've always dreamed of, they're kept at the bottom where other people find them more immediately useful. 2. Hardworking person: So they're really hard working and have the skills etc. However they lack awareness & luck. In this scenario the person is working at a company where the boss is a classic case of nepotism- he is only interested in giving his sons/daughters the really good jobs in the company (and will never pass on/sell the company to anyone outside of the family). This hardworking person is unlucky that they've found themself in such a job but their lack of awareness over the situation further seals their fate of always working towards a goal (that will never be afforded to them). 3. Lucky person: This person is very lucky and is hard working and has so far found themself being afforded many opportunities (which they have grasped). But their luck has a limit to how high they can go because they lack the skills/talent to either stay competitive at the top (or even reach the top at all). Thus they live with a constant nagging background sense job anxiety/insecurity (always knowing they don't really deserve the position they have and fearing that one day someone will figure them out or that someone else who is much better qualified will inevitably come along and easily knock them off their spot etc). Those who live by fortune suffer both sides of it (unless they have the wherewithal to secure their fortune when its good). 4. Well planning person: So this person always tries to plan every move with foresight and who is deeply aware of their environment (the social politics at play, the true state of the company or economy and where its heading etc). But while this person will leap (often long before anyone else) from a ship just starting to sink (or conversely jump onto a boat that's on the rise) or who will study for the right qualifications etc, if they don't have a degree of luck on their side (or even worse, get a reputation for poor work ethic), all their careful planning may still come to nought. Also, a lot of well paid job roles require true skill/talent to truly succeed in them (meaning that no much how you plan, what you study or how hard you work etc, if you lack the intrinsic/fundamental stuff (skill/talent) you will still not go far). However there are NO assurances/guarantees in anything in life when it comes to education/work (especially in this 21st century). How will the economy be in 5-10 years time? What new technologies will come along? Who will be in government (and what laws will they make) etc? Nobody knows. The best you can do is to try and succeed at all the major factors. Life may still not go your way, but as long as you keep trying (never allowing yourself to grow complacent or lazy etc), you can increase your chances of success significantly. And its always a really good idea to save money (if you can!) for a "rainy day" (etc). But even then, what is success? Success can be measured by many means. And even then, ending up in a well paid high ranking job is not for everyone. While some people find their primary happiness in work, many more find theirs outside of work (and they work simply to provide a means to sustaining their activities or lifestyle etc outside of work). Work is not the be-all and end-all of things (and is certainly not the only means to measure success) and getting caught up in the "rat race" can become very regrettable mistake for some (especially when a well paid job comes at the cost of someone's love life or much needed family time etc). I think its also important to remember that most companies don't actually give much of a **** about you. That no matter how well they look after their staff (the pension packages, the time off etc), you're usually a pretty disposable entity (so always be wary about how much of your life you devote to a job because if you end up having to change jobs or the company goes down etc, you don't want to end up feeling bitter about all the life of yours that you devoted to a job which in the end, never worked out how you hoped it would). |
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| Luckily all humans have the talent to find even more talents if they work at it. You will always have a talent that someone else will not have, and that is just a singular quality that makes us different from each other. Naturally, we will not have the same talents, but there are some things you can succeed at that others cannot in different areas. |
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| "Hard Work beats Talent, when Talent doesn't work hard" - I think that's kinda true. If you rest on your talents, the hard working people will surpass you eventually - the world never stops spinning. |
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Shaheen- said: @TheBrainintheJar If you have discovered your talent through hard work, then you've discovered a 'skill' not a talent (in which case, it wont be a discovery). Talent is always there, it is never 'discovered'. Those who have a natural aptitude for something soon find it out -- without hard work. It is true that no one by birth knows what he/she is most talented at, but it takes only some 'trying out', not 'hard work'. The general education provided in our schools usually gets the job done of providing opportunities to the talented to discover their interests. The problem with great people is the iceberg situation. We their successes. We hear about their breakthroughs, but we don't hear about every detail of the day. We don't hear about the 1000 drafts or hours of recitals or all the songs the band scrapped. How can you be sure talent is something you discover and hard work doesn't matter as much? AxBattler said: @TheBrainintheJar I am not sufficiently knowledgeable about classical music to assess how good Mozart's earlier composition was (they were pretty short AFAIK), but his list of accomplishments only kept growing. There are very few talented like Mozart (and as I said earlier, it's is a scale between exceptionally talented and exceptionally untalented with most of us somewhere in between), but enough to say he is not a unique case. Musical abilities is something that I believe is strongly dictated by natural talent. Not every under 12s can do what some of the ones on the following list can do with hard work alone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_music_prodigies If there are very few examples like Mozart, then it's the exception. You shouldn't base your conclusions on 'hard work' and 'talent' based off on the odd ones. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: Shaheen- said: @TheBrainintheJar If you have discovered your talent through hard work, then you've discovered a 'skill' not a talent (in which case, it wont be a discovery). Talent is always there, it is never 'discovered'. Those who have a natural aptitude for something soon find it out -- without hard work. It is true that no one by birth knows what he/she is most talented at, but it takes only some 'trying out', not 'hard work'. The general education provided in our schools usually gets the job done of providing opportunities to the talented to discover their interests. The problem with great people is the iceberg situation. We their successes. We hear about their breakthroughs, but we don't hear about every detail of the day. We don't hear about the 1000 drafts or hours of recitals or all the songs the band scrapped. How can you be sure talent is something you discover and hard work doesn't matter as much? Talent doesn't negate the possibility of failure. Plus, I think you're having a misunderstanding of the concept of talent here. Talent is not a goal; it is a tool that is utilized to achieve the goal. You don't discover your 'talent' through hard work; you use your talent in your hard work to discover whatever you have. |
Asturis said: Hm , so i was reading a manga where the mc was like " No matter how hard you try , if you have no talent you won't surpass me " , so i'm wondering , is it really impossible to pass the level of a talented one with hard work ? I'm pretty sure if I tried my best I will never win against Roger Federer in tennis. It's not about just talent or just hard work, it's a combination of both. |
Shaheen- said: TheBrainintheJar said: The problem with great people is the iceberg situation. We their successes. We hear about their breakthroughs, but we don't hear about every detail of the day. We don't hear about the 1000 drafts or hours of recitals or all the songs the band scrapped. How can you be sure talent is something you discover and hard work doesn't matter as much? Talent doesn't negate the possibility of failure. Plus, I think you're having a misunderstanding of the concept of talent here. Talent is not a goal; it is a tool that is utilized to achieve the goal. You don't discover your 'talent' through hard work; you use your talent in your hard work to discover whatever you have. How do we know something is the result of talent, and not hard work? How is talent something you discover instead of developing? AxBattler said: @TheBrainintheJar Talented people are, by it's very nature, the exception to the mass. They are the "odd ones". And like I said already, talent exists on a scale. A child who composes at the age of 3 is such a huge exception you can't base overarching theories over it. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: Shaheen- said: Talent doesn't negate the possibility of failure. Plus, I think you're having a misunderstanding of the concept of talent here. Talent is not a goal; it is a tool that is utilized to achieve the goal. You don't discover your 'talent' through hard work; you use your talent in your hard work to discover whatever you have. How do we know something is the result of talent, and not hard work? How is talent something you discover instead of developing? We don't need to know that. Talent becomes apparent i.e it shows itself, not in the work but in the worker. PS 'talent being discovered' is what I was denying. |
| There is no such thing as "talent": it's just a convenient excuse for indolents to not try. Perfect practice makes perfect (i.e., how you practice is as important as how much you practice). A pro athlete's son is likely to be a pro athlete not because they've "talent," but because they have a pro athlete who knows all of the effective training methods to teach them from the youngest possible age. |
Austn said: There is no such thing as "talent": it's just a convenient excuse for indolents to not try. Perfect practice makes perfect (i.e., how you practice is as important as how much you practice). A pro athlete's son is likely to be a pro athlete not because they've "talent," but because they have a pro athlete who knows all of the effective training methods to teach them from the youngest possible age. Forgive me, but as a former child prodigy with 20 years experience competing and coaching in one of the planet's hardest sports, I just have to say...bullshit. |
| Talent wins out. I'm thinking of this based on an athletics background. Not sports, athletics. Like running and jumping. If you've ever seriously competed in something that wasn't skill based and came purely down to who can move the fastest over a certain distance then you realize how big of a talent gap there is out there and it can't be overcome or even reasonably closed with hard work. That doesn't mean hard work and dedication aren't important. You can make improvements with hard work and still feel very proud and accomplished with the improvements you made but talent just simply plays a much bigger factor. |
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| Sadly it's a reality you have to/ and don't have to face. If talent works hard and you aren't talented you will not be better than him/her. But at that point you have to ask yourself, do I really care? Whether or not you'll ever be better than talent should that stop you from working hard? Do you have to be better than that person? |
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Fatalistic said: Do you have to be better than that person? Bingo What's really important is how far one goes in realizing the limits of their own potential, rather than how it compares to the competition. If this became the focus, there'd be a lot fewer dictator parents with vicarious delusions of grandeur and psychologically fucked up child athletes... |
Gymkata said: Fatalistic said: Do you have to be better than that person? psychologically fucked up child athletes... I'll elaborate on this. I was a considered a prodigy in Muay Thai since I was 11 years old. All the pressure, the godamn pressure that came with that. I trained everyeday 6 days a week, in the summer 3 times a day 5 days a week, I constantly was saying Iit's not enough, it's not enough, I'm not better than him, I NEED to be the best. I got psychologically fucked up. I got in and out of depression all the time, I isolated myself from everybody because I eat, sleep, and breathed Muay Thai. By the time I was 15 and had multiple championships and 2 world championships under my belt I was burned out. I still have psychological problems from that today. Still partake in it though but it has messed me up so bad that I don't enjoy it as much anymore. The pressure I had from everybody, it was mind destroying. Will probably delete this in a day because I don't like people really knowing my past but I just wanted to tell you how true this is. |
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Fatalistic said: I'll elaborate on this. I was a considered a prodigy in Muay Thai since I was 11 years old. All the pressure, the godamn pressure that came with that. I trained everyeday 6 days a week, in the summer 3 times a day 5 days a week, I constantly was saying Iit's not enough, it's not enough, I'm not better than him, I NEED to be the best. I got psychologically fucked up. I got in and out of depression all the time, I isolated myself from everybody because I eat, sleep, and breathed Muay Thai. By the time I was 15 and had multiple championships and 2 world championships under my belt I was burned out. I still have psychological problems from that today. Still partake in it though but it has messed me up so bad that I don't enjoy it as much anymore. The pressure I had from everybody, it was mind destroying. Will probably delete this in a day because I don't like people really knowing my past but I just wanted to tell you how true this is. Damn...we should grab some beer and go bowling LOL. Sounds all too familiar. And I made the even bigger mistake of trying to do it in college ie. 120hr weeks. |
Gymkata said: Fatalistic said: I'll elaborate on this. I was a considered a prodigy in Muay Thai since I was 11 years old. All the pressure, the godamn pressure that came with that. I trained everyeday 6 days a week, in the summer 3 times a day 5 days a week, I constantly was saying Iit's not enough, it's not enough, I'm not better than him, I NEED to be the best. I got psychologically fucked up. I got in and out of depression all the time, I isolated myself from everybody because I eat, sleep, and breathed Muay Thai. By the time I was 15 and had multiple championships and 2 world championships under my belt I was burned out. I still have psychological problems from that today. Still partake in it though but it has messed me up so bad that I don't enjoy it as much anymore. The pressure I had from everybody, it was mind destroying. Will probably delete this in a day because I don't like people really knowing my past but I just wanted to tell you how true this is. Damn...we should grab some beer and go bowling LOL. Sounds all too familiar. Haha, still underage (17, in Canada) but yeah I love doing things like that. Little things like going bowling with chill friends is what is the best out of life imo. But yeah this happens way too often. Whether it's school or sports, kids should atrive for the best they can be personally and not competitively. Once it starts getting competitive and gets fueled by the adults around them they get majorly messed up. They either engross their life in it, or they become apathetic towards everybody's expectations and their own previous aspirations. |
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AxBattler said: TheBrainintheJar said: A child who composes at the age of 3 is such a huge exception you can't base overarching theories over it. Extraordinary talent is still talent, so you can't conveniently swipe it under the carpet because it doesn't suit you. And there are plenty more examples along the scale (do you understand what that means?), though obviously the ones recorded in history will be the most exceptional ones. Besides, any of the 100+ (which isn't even exhaustive) 12 years old and under, in the Wiki link have achieved the level of a skilled adult. Even someone in the top 10 percentile at something (common enough that you've likely met at least a few in your lifetime) has a huge advantage over someone in the 50th percentile (someone squarely average). If all you are interested is people with very similar talent (say, top 25th percentile vs top 30th percentile), then sure, hard work will be a huge factor, but the idea that anyone can be the best in a given field through hard work alone, is idealistic fantasy which makes for good story telling (manga/anime), but no ground has in reality. You can't make it alone on hard work or talent alone. You also need luck, circumstances and the right environment. But you're trying to create a theory of hard work V talent, but if your examples are only from the fringe - if it's only about 100 people in the history of humanity - it's irrelevant. We don't define what 'human' means based on mutants with third eyes. |
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AxBattler said: @TheBrainintheJar "Making it" is not the subject of this thread ("Talent vs Hard Work"). Without specific goals as a measure for success, that is it's too vague to bring "making it" into the topic. And it -not- "only about 100 people in the history of humanity". 1-in-1000 are considered "highly gifted". That is around 7 millions today. 1-in-30000 are considered "geniuses". That is still over 230000 today. Not in the history of mankind. Whatever you think of IQ tests, that is still a lot of people with a talent for solving the kind of problems seen in IQ tests. And that is above numbers is just for IQ, which has widely available figures. It excludes the gifted individuals with talents for music, drawing, and sports, and other hundreds if not thousands of activities. Do you honestly believe that once you add all those exceptional individuals you'd end up with.. a mere 100 in the history of mankind? I haven't heard a convincing argument for IQ. Isn't it a test to let stupid people define intelligence easily? How do we discover 'talent'? How much effort have these geniuses put into their profession? |
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| You need both. People with only talent but no hard work will hit rock bottom (my own brother is an example, he is a true prodigy, but his lack of discipline and his feeling of superiority got him nowhere. He would've been a pro soccer player otherwise, literally.) And working hard but having no talent doesn't let you reach to the highest too but you'll get close or average. Also, you need luck. So hard work and talent go hand in hand. |
| Depends of how talented the person is and what are they talented on. But hard work should def be more cherished than talent tbh. Talent can be born through hard work, tho. So I guess the best person would always be the one who can combine both. |
AxBattler said: TheBrainintheJar said: I haven't heard a convincing argument for IQ. Isn't it a test to let stupid people define intelligence easily? How do we discover 'talent'? How much effort have these geniuses put into their profession? Hence I said "whatever you think of IQ tests" ;) And no it's not. Not sure if you've ever seen one, but it covers a fairly wide range of problem solving involving logic, numbers, visual-spatial aptitude, etc. While it is not, and doesn't claim to be the end and all to defining intelligence, it does at the very least allow one to assess the ability to solve a range of problems and some people are simply so much better (talented) than others at those kind of problem solving. Partly depends on the kind of talent, but probably by luck more often than not. We try something new, and we (or other people) notice that we are progressing at a much faster rate than what can be explained by hard work alone. Your last question is impossible to answer. Some may decide to use their talent/genius to the fullest and work their hardest, while others may not. Some may even choose to ignore their talent to pursue something they may have no special talent for, but make them happier. Do IQ tests have philosophical questions? The Rubik's Cube fallacy - life isn't a riddle with strict rules like questions on a test. So yes, I'm skeptical of IQ tests. What about artists who lose their talent, who put a masterwork and then produce nothing good for the rest of their life? |
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AxBattler said: @TheBrainintheJar Whether your sceptical of the value of IQ test is besides the point and doesn't change the argument - that is, working hard at it isn't going to allow someone average in IQ test to raise their score to genius level. Some people are simply built to be much, much better at certain things than others. Whether that thing is useful or not isn't really relevant. I am also not sure where you are getting at with the last question in the context of this thread. It seems to me that you are confusing success and talent here.. I can't find the article right now but it said that many people improved their IQ scores, or prepared for the tests and their scores rose dramatically. |
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| in my experience talent comes from hard work |
| Scream! |
AxBattler said: @TheBrainintheJar If you can find name a person of average IQ (around 100) raise to genius level (around 160), I'd like to know. Remember, no one is saying that hard work won't show any improvement, even drastic improvement. Whether that is enough for someone ordinary to overtake someone extraordinary is the question. Why should I take IQ tests seriously, though? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| Man this reminds me of this Will Smith video one of my art teachers would play all the time. I'm gonna say talent will win out. Or you know, whatever conclusion that doesn't command me to work the hardest. |
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AxBattler said: @TheBrainintheJar That's like asking why you should take juggling seriously. Figure skating seriously. Mental arithmetic seriously. I don't mind discussing this in another thread, but it's off-topic here. The topic here is not what activity you should take seriously, it's whether an average person can outdo a someone with talent at any given activity.. regardless of what you think said activity. IQ scores tell us something very specific about intelligence - that you can measure it by quantity, and that there is only one way for it to exist. Either you're good at the IQ test or not. I question the validity of this. I question whether intelligence can be measured numerically. |
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| Funny story about talent.. My entire life my mom told me how smart and special I was.. She always told me I was talented... I did really well early on in school life with little effort as well. This led to to believe I never had to work and could cruise through my life because I was "talented". I shouldn't have to me not working as hard as others because I believed I was some kind of super special snowflake. WRONG - when I hit university I got my dose of reality and realized I'm NOTHING. I had horrible work ethic and it fucked me hard. I still have bad work ethic and still have some belief that I'm special ingrained deep inside my brain. It's hard to shake that feeling when you grew your entire believing it. Sucks man, work hard - you're no better than anyone else. I realize some people are truly just freaks and cruise through university without effort - I just realized that I wasn't - it's dangerous to think you are if you're not. Just a heads up. |
| Luck Trumps ALL.................................................................... |
| Why would most of the people here think that 'talented' always lazy? |
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| Talent only gets you so far in life. Hard work is really what gets shit done. |
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| How much of a difference does there need to be for it to be considered a talent? Honestly I think only a few people have true talent. And people need to stop underestimating children, child prodigies? Give me a break, most people who think they were some sort of a child prodigy are only a part of the few who tried in the first place. Yet there are enough of those people that you got a significant portion of the population going around thinking they were special when they were kids. The current mandatory education system leaves people thinking they are special but most (probably all) of you are dumber than you think you are, but that's okay, it goes for me too. Spoiled youth with no idea what true hard work means. I think that there is no talent for most of the billions of people who live on this planet, there are only different degrees of hard work and a few dozen people who actually got any talent. |
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