If Fate/Hollow Ataraxia didn't exist, would you still like the F/SN servants better than the F/Z ones?(spoilers)
| I find F/Z servants lacking in depth to the likes of F/SN's Archer and their other counterparts ESPECIALLY after HA. I also liked them more even before i had read HA. The only servant that was given more focus (than his counterpart) in F/Z was Gil and Saber was one dimensional in the sense of being the poster girl for Chivalry having not much more going on for her. (it still might be F/SN bias because it was what I read first) |
BoneofSwordJan 23, 2015 9:14 AM
BoneofSword said: I find F/Z servants lacking in depth to the likes of F/SN's Archer and their other counterparts ESPECIALLY after HA. I also liked them more even before i had read HA. The only servant that was given more focus (than his counterpart) in F/Z was Gil and Saber was one dimensional in the sense of being the poster girl for Chivalry having not much more going on for her. The thing is it can't be chalked up to FZ. WE SEE examples of that behavior in her past memories too. |
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CookingPriest said: BoneofSword said: I find F/Z servants lacking in depth to the likes of F/SN's Archer and their other counterparts ESPECIALLY after HA. I also liked them more even before i had read HA. The only servant that was given more focus (than his counterpart) in F/Z was Gil and Saber was one dimensional in the sense of being the poster girl for Chivalry having not much more going on for her. The thing is it can't be chalked up to FZ. WE SEE examples of that behavior in her past memories too. That may be true - it's been a while since I have given fate route a reading. What I remembered is how different Saber felt when i read the F/Z novel and it stuck with me throughout. I usually just reread HF and UBW if I want to refresh the novel... |
BoneofSword said: CookingPriest said: The thing is it can't be chalked up to FZ. WE SEE examples of that behavior in her past memories too. That may be true - it's been a while since I have given fate route a reading. What I remembered is how different Saber felt when i read the F/Z novel and it stuck with me throughout. I usually just reread HF and UBW if I want to refresh the novel... Sadly I'm the same lol, I neglect Fate route so much. I really do have to give it another once over. |
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| How often do you guys even make a full re-playthrough, I only did it twice for each route. The RN 2006 once way back and 2012 once a month or so ago. |
Insertanamehere said: Same.How often do you guys even make a full re-playthrough, I only did it twice for each route. Second playthrough finished a week ago. First time was 4 years ago. |
Insertanamehere said: How often do you guys even make a full re-playthrough, I only did it twice for each route. The RN 2006 once way back and 2012 once a month or so ago. Two or three times per year. Four times in 2014 because ufofsn hype. |
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| Hassan>all |
 Anime is good, fucking deal with it. |
black1blade said: Hassan>all Shit taste. He can't even be compared to Sasaki. |
chickenonthepan said: black1blade said: Hassan>all Shit taste. He can't even be compared to Sasaki. He's actually not that bad though |
CookingPriest said: Based Counter Guardian.Insertanamehere said: How often do you guys even make a full re-playthrough, I only did it twice for each route. The RN 2006 once way back and 2012 once a month or so ago. Two or three times per year. Four times in 2014 because ufofsn hype. |
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Insertanamehere said: chickenonthepan said: Shit taste. He can't even be compared to Sasaki. He's actually not that bad though Hassan comes out of sasaki's chest so yeah. |
Anime is good, fucking deal with it. |
StrayBotato said: CookingPriest said: Based Counter Guardian.Two or three times per year. Four times in 2014 because ufofsn hype. You Don't? I'd do it more but I have to leave room for Tsukihime and Fate.Extra o.O |
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CookingPriest said: Insertanamehere said: How often do you guys even make a full re-playthrough, I only did it twice for each route. The RN 2006 once way back and 2012 once a month or so ago. Two or three times per year. Four times in 2014 because ufofsn hype. wat |
| Is it really that strange?... |
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CookingPriest said: Is it really that strange?... Yes. Unless you don't mean a actual complete start to finish playthrough and instead mean just checking random scenes and things. |
Insertanamehere said: CookingPriest said: Is it really that strange?... Yes. Unless you don't mean a actual complete start to finish playthrough and instead mean just checking random scenes and things. From prologue till HF true. Now will add FHA to the rotation too. |
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Insertanamehere said: CookingPriest said: Is it really that strange?... Yes. Unless you don't mean a actual complete start to finish playthrough and instead mean just checking random scenes and things. Fai's a CG, I'm actually shocked it's not more. |
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CookingPriest said: Insertanamehere said: Yes. Unless you don't mean a actual complete start to finish playthrough and instead mean just checking random scenes and things. From prologue till HF true. Now will add FHA to the rotation too. wtf how do you have so much time how do you read through all the cooking and the exposition again and again |
Insertanamehere said: how do you read through all the cooking He is CookingPriest |
| This question doesn't even make sense. F/HA was fully translated just a couple of months ago and is pretty damn long. But let's see... Rider F/Z ----> Kinda cool as a character, but not much of a servant per se. His noble phantasm is pretty overpowered, but doesn't have much of an impact on the story, unlike the Rule Breaker or Berserker's immortality. Rider F/SN --> Very good art, interesting style, weapons and noble phantasms, not to mention her very important connection to Sakura and therefore role in the story Caster F/Z ----> Weird guy. I like some of the creepy stuff that he does, like killing that child that runs to Saber, but I see no good reason to make his appearance so weird. He could have been more ruthless though. Wait, who am I kidding? This ain't Kara no Shoujo and probably wouldn't have made sense historically either. His "noble phantasm" was weird as well. Caster F/SN --> Caster looks awesome. She has some interesting skills, like flying + shooting spells, manipulating space. Her noble phantasm may not be something flashy, but it changes pretty much everything in UBW. Berserker F/Z ----> His art looks incredibly. I'm not the biggest fan of all that aircraft stuff though. The reveal in his final battle was nice, but I thought the whole thing felt a bit anticlimatic. :( Berserker F/SN --> This guy was born to scare everyone else in the story and he does that pretty well. It's interesting to see his connection with Illya in UBW. His noble phantasm isn't necessarily cool, but I guess it suits him well in that it turns him into a beast that never dies. Not my favorite servant at all, but he's still pretty important in the story. Lancer F/Z ----> Not much background, but I like his art better than F/SN's lancer. He looks like a nice character, but isn't relevant in the grand scheme of things. Wounds that you cannot heal are a nice touch, but I'd expect more of an actual noble phantasm. It does allow him to affect the story without having to kill the other character or anything like that though, so that's good. I can't recall his other one. Having 2 spears is kinda nice. Lancer F/SN --> Not much background either. I don't recall much of what he does in Fate or HF. On the other hand, his noble phantasm is pretty damn powerful, at least in theory. I like how he tries to defy Kirei here and there. Archer F/Z ----> Also present in F/SN, so no point in comparing him to anyone else. Sick noble phantasm. Nuff said. Archer F/SN --> Great art. Very nice skills, like projection. Although not as strong as the other servants, he's incredibly versatile, such as him projecting his swords to attack Caster even though he was pretty much paralyzed. Pretty damn power broken phantasms. Unlimited Blade Works is not only cool, but op as fuck. Obsession at its finest. Needless to say, he's one of the most important servants in the Fate franchise. Assassin ------> I won't talk about him in detail because I don't remember much of them. In F/Z, the little twist at the beginning was nice, but aside from that the servant didn't accomplish much as far as I remember. Sasaki was not interesting either imo. At least he had to defend the temple, which was an understable role given the circumstances. I don't remember much about the true assassin in HF, but that was a really nice twist and I recall him having some nice fights as well. All this talk really makes me want to see Dark Saber and the crazy twists that happen in HF again. |
FlamepriesTJan 23, 2015 12:15 PM
chickenonthepan said: Insertanamehere said: how do you read through all the cooking He is CookingPriest Oh. Well damn. |
| Yeah, by a big mark |
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| Anybody else seeing both Praland's and CP's sig? Edit: nvm, thought MAL got fixed for a moment *sigh* |
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Mickdrew said: Anybody else seeing both Praland's and CP's sig? Yeah. Doesn't mean img is actually working, though. |
June93 said: As for servants I'd have to say: F/sn Saber < F/Z Saber: May as well be different characters given what we've seen, I always hated how hard Nasu tried to feminize her which only had an adverse effect on her characterization so I have to give it to her characterization in Zero where she was a no nonsense figure. If you substitute the references to "being more girly" with "being more human", it makes her character development much better. Since F/Z lacks this dimension in any way, I'd say FSN Saber is much better. |
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June93 said: Mickdrew said: She's very human and has weaknesses in F/Z as well. There's also the matter of the execution for her girly/human side being abysmal in stay night, often times when reading the routes it felt as if Saber was comprised of two contrasting figures constantly fighting for supremacy.If you substitute the references to "being more girly" with "being more human", it makes her character development much better. Since F/Z lacks this dimension in any way, I'd say FSN Saber is much better. Her ideals may have flaws in F/Z, but it's never related to weaknesses in her as a person (except for one reference from Rider). She is two characters in FSN - that was kind of the point. You have the noble and hardened king, and you have the girl Arturia who she once was. |
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June93 said: Mickdrew said: She couldn't understand the people and therefore she failed, I'd say that's a weakness. Her chivalrous, hardheaded nature also led to her unfortunate end in the climax of the story.Her ideals may have flaws in F/Z, but it's never related to weaknesses in her as a person (except for one reference from Rider). She is two characters in FSN - that was kind of the point. You have the noble and hardened king, and you have the girl Arturia who she once was. Okay I see your point; it is tied to her as a person - but that's not her entire character. Her "chivalrous, hardheaded nature" was really just a mask she put on when she became king. This wasn't explored at all in F/Z, we're just supposed to assume she's a stoic king who screwed up. |
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CookingPriest said: Uhhh I am a newbie so I only read it twice.StrayBotato said: Based Counter Guardian. You Don't? I'd do it more but I have to leave room for Tsukihime and Fate.Extra o.O Also I hate reading. |
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Mickdrew said: June93 said: As for servants I'd have to say: F/sn Saber < F/Z Saber: May as well be different characters given what we've seen, I always hated how hard Nasu tried to feminize her which only had an adverse effect on her characterization so I have to give it to her characterization in Zero where she was a no nonsense figure. If you substitute the references to "being more girly" with "being more human", it makes her character development much better. Since F/Z lacks this dimension in any way, I'd say FSN Saber is much better. THis. Zero Saber is nothing more than a silly one note plot device for CHIVALRY! |
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June93 said: As for the contrast while that was the case the execution once again was completely off. If Nasu hadn't made Saber a girl and wanted to try at this angle I'm sure he would have done it in a more eloquent way. What we got however was essentially turning what was the stoic, machine like King of England into a docile waifu with the snap of a finger. There are many ways to humanize characters without resorting to moefying them. That's Fate, in UBW her character is pretty much relegated to those SoL scenes doing nothing but eating or being cute (often these two are concurrent) along with being a tool for the fights, so she's pretty much at her worst as she becomes nothing more than "another anime girl in armor". I liked her quite a bit in HF though, probably because a lot of her more introspective scenes were prompted without the need of romantic tension. Fate is a little clumsily written, and the character dynamics (including the romance) could definitely use some tweaking. You got to remember, though, that Arturia hasn't expressed her emotions since she was 15. It's all very good to point out that "she's moe waifu material", but given that she gave up being a human for so long, how exactly do you expect her to act when she falls in love? |
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| Imo, if Nasu didn't made Saber into girl, contrast between "King" and "human" wouldn't be as expressed (or "as visible", my expressing in english sucks sometimes). Not to mention, Merlin wouldn't have any fun. |
astroprogs said: If HF ended up being a single movie, what would it need to do so it can get a high score from all of you? Not air. |
| Yeah, how dare Saber be humanized and vulnerable. She should appease the "strong robot " stereotype that characters like Lightning belong to and not get any development that showcases that she is vulnerable and NOT some emotionless Rei Machine. |
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| FSN Lancer > FSN Archer > FZ Archer/Gil > FSN Saber > FZ Caster > FSN Rider > FZ Rider > FSN Assassin > FSN caster > True Assassin > FSN Gil > FSN Berserker > FZ Berserker > FZ Saber > FZ Lancer > FZ Assassin I haven't read Hollow Ataraxia yet |
Pu55yDestr0yerJan 23, 2015 2:25 PM
| BAN ME |
June93 said: Mickdrew said: I'd rather she not fall in love at all, what matters is that she doesn't regret her decisions. The "become more human" component of her character arc in the Fate route is used as a means for her romance with Shirou, which is pretty badly handled. As the man above has said, I doubt Nasu would have expressed Arthur's character like this had he not have been made a girl, which says quite a bit about Nasu himself.how exactly do you expect her to act when she falls in love? Badly handled or not, this change makes complete sense. She was nothing more than a tool used by her kingdom for 10 years - never thinking of herself, never being valued as a person. Only as weapon to fight on their behalf (this extends to how Kiritsugu treated her). Suddenly Shirou appears, who does see her as a person who should be valued; and even goes so far as to risk his own life to keep her from dying. This isn't focused on enough in the story, but this idea of her finding value in herself completely works, even if it's too implicit. Maybe Nasu wouldn't have expressed this if she was a man - and Arthur would have been a worse character as a result. |
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| Mira, Mike needs your help. If you are reading this, please come to his aid immediately. Don't let him drown into his waifu and die. |
| heh nah I'll be fine. She's not my waifu anyways. |
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| Not to mention that falling in love with Shirou is feasible because she first and foremost saw herself in him and the way he blindly pursues his ideal. It is feasible that someone's walls would crumble from that. Its no like it was the "omg i wanna bake cakes and be a housewife with him" kind of love. That never happened. It always felt a lot more platonic to me, in the way they slowly grew to respect each other's lives and learned to not regret their own from that experience. They are someone who walked similar paths and then found strength in that. "Shirou in love with Saber" or "saber in love with shirou" is nohing different from "Shirou inlove with ideal" or "Saber in love with ideal". And no matter the "waif stuff" that someone might misidentify Saber's behavior as(it is not that. It becomes VERY sad when you learn her backstory), Saber DOES in the end very firmly state that that changes nothing and reaffirms her path as the King as the right one. Just because she got to experience being "just a girl" does not mean that the VN treats her life as "wrong". Opposite. Both SHirou and the reader learn to admire Saber's dedication to her path and Saber reaffirms the path she walked. She just also gets to be a normal girl for a while, but it does NOT change who is as a King. |
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Mickdrew said: heh nah I'll be fine. She's not my waifu anyways. I just realize that Kurisu-chan is not on your favorite list. DIE, HERETIC. |
CookingPriest said: *applauds* chickenonthepan said: Mickdrew said: heh nah I'll be fine. She's not my waifu anyways. I just realize that Kurisu-chan is not on your favorite list. DIE, HERETIC. I.....um......well.......uhhh..... She's a great character, just doesn't crack my top 10 :( She's close tho, so put your pitchforks away, pls |
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Mickdrew said: I.....um......well.......uhhh..... She's a great character, just doesn't crack my top 10 :( Close tho, so put your pitchforks away, pls No excuse, just die. I will give you a merciful death. |
| In FHA,in the night scene "monster" with Rider;Does anyone have the image that flashes for a moment? |
ssjokgJan 23, 2015 3:11 PM
chickenonthepan said: Mickdrew said: I.....um......well.......uhhh..... She's a great character, just doesn't crack my top 10 :( Close tho, so put your pitchforks away, pls No excuse, just die. I will give you a merciful death. :'( *bows head* |
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| Saber best treasure. |
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June93 said: Mickdrew said: I'd rather she not fall in love at all, what matters is that she doesn't regret her decisions. The "become more human" component of her character arc in the Fate route is used as a means for her romance with Shirou, which is pretty badly handled. As the man above has said, I doubt Nasu would have expressed Arthur's character like this had he not have been made a girl, which says quite a bit about Nasu himself.how exactly do you expect her to act when she falls in love? Well, no. That wasn't the reason why Nasu turned Arthur into a girl. He could've expressed Arthur's character even as a man. Her character does need somekind of love to be expressed properly. "Doesn't regret her decision" is literally not the point of her arc. There's a girl who's forsaken herself for strangers, and is on the brink of tradiing her soul.. Which is more important? Finding herself, or to stop regretting what happened to other people for what she did; even tho it was going to happen anyway. Even if she stopped regretting, so what? She's still gonna be a fucking lost person. Edit: Well done Mick-kun. Senpai is here. Seiba isn't my #1 waifu tho. Lala has lotz of waifus and husbandos! |
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