cabacc2 said: there is no need for it. Yes, there is. Why do you even think that this argument even exists? |
| Click on this. I dare you. | MAL Fantasy Football League | Currently Watching List RWBY Club. RWBY is anime. Deal with it. |
Forgetfulness said: KyuuAL said: Because butthurt Americans think that others think that anime is some "superior artform" and they're not "allowed" to make it, that's fucking whycabacc2 said: there is no need for it. Yes, there is. Why do you even think that this argument even exists? You of all people should know this lmfao Thanks, for the obvious answer to an obvious question. Anyways, looking at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIxgCemfBRA Anyone can simply take that software package -- whatever Carbot animatiions is using -- and take anime-styled art and make some "amateur anime" work on their own. As I've said for many many years now, anyone with the anime art talent can take one step forward. Instead of just making anime fan art, they can go on to make anime fan animations (sounds redundant, huh?). If anyone really gets good enough, then they can do said work professionally. |
| Click on this. I dare you. | MAL Fantasy Football League | Currently Watching List RWBY Club. RWBY is anime. Deal with it. |
Forgetfulness said: Because butthurt Americans think that others think that anime is some "superior artform" and they're not "allowed" to make it, that's fucking why You of all people should know this lmfao One more thing, I'm not butthurt. I started way back in 2006 asking myself: "Can Americans make anime?" My answer: "Why the f*ck not?" Of course, this answer very well goes against the overwhelming majority of anime fandom. Quite frankly, I 5000% understand, where they're coming from. Anime as we know it is good at doing two particular things: 1. Making said animated world appear and feel real. Hence, threads asking "which anime world would you like to be in". FYI, I just finished Log Horizon. 2. Animating very attractive female characters. There's so many of them, to the point where people have chosen waifus here and there. Personally, I'd probably select like 200+ waifus. :p |
KyuuALApr 15, 2014 2:31 PM
| Click on this. I dare you. | MAL Fantasy Football League | Currently Watching List RWBY Club. RWBY is anime. Deal with it. |
| You can have your definition of anime, Kyuu, MAL has its own as well. Anyway this thread is kind of a "fixing something that is not broken" thing. At least for me, but whatever. |
Forgetfulness said: You make it sound like this is some kind of discrimination in quality. Actually, it is. Consider people's reaction to OEL Manga. Ugh, that was pathetic. So many people were so upset with OEL Manga. One word that comes to mind was "false marketing". Really? To parallel the same argument, many have this strict demand for "authentic manga" to be made in Japan - and Japan only. And this is the bottom line to this entire issue: "Authenticity". Forgetfulness said: I ask you: "Can Americans make an authentic Japanese product?" Yes. Given the time, talent, skill, and know-how. Personally, I have a huge problem with people denying others a chance -- before they even take that chance. That's why I'm fighting this. |
| Click on this. I dare you. | MAL Fantasy Football League | Currently Watching List RWBY Club. RWBY is anime. Deal with it. |
DerpHole said: underrated post imhoYou aren't going to get Avatar Air Bender to be listed on MAL. Just stop. |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
Mamimii said: So much so that it is preserved in the FAQ. The discussion should end there.DerpHole said: underrated post imhoYou aren't going to get Avatar Air Bender to be listed on MAL. Just stop. |
 Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. |
Not_Cake said: Wait, Kyuu, do you honestly think anime is by definition, better than cartoons? Today? Several times more. Hell, I don't even bother turning on the TV to watch Cartoon Network. That channel has gone so far down the toilet, it's sad. Watching RWBY, there was that animation that kept getting advertised... um... China something. Ugh, that one looked really pathetic. Forgetfulness said: If you go in threads along the lines of "If Avatar was an anime, what score would you give it?". Many people said that they would give it a score of 8+/10, and that it was better than most anime. That's one reason as to why Avatar is even considered to be anime among some circles. When it comes to this argument, Avatar always pops up in the discussion. Of course, the other part stems from the production crew watching and studying anime, in order to try their best to emulate elements of anime into Avatar. They got some of the basic concepts down. |
| Click on this. I dare you. | MAL Fantasy Football League | Currently Watching List RWBY Club. RWBY is anime. Deal with it. |
| Im a anime! Put me in!!!!! i've shed my gaijin shell (not unlike the Japanese cicaida, native to works such as When They Cry) and all the traditions are down pat (always make green tea, take shoes off, love notes in shoe locker, etc.) and I believe Im prepared for my induction into MAL, seeing as there is almost no difference between me and anime or manga (i am going to make a living on the JET program and become a mangaka very soon, after i ask my parents (filial piety) for clogs and an investment in my future as a citizen of Japan. wwwwwww~ お願いよろしく Ja Ne.♬ |
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. |
Forgetfulness said: Not_Cake said: Once it's stop being made by those dumb 'Murikanz and is graced by the presence of the great Nipponese, only then is it a good quality cartoon worthy of the title anime.Ok Kyuu, how good must a cartoon be before it becomes an anime? Good bad. Who cares. It has to copy and emulate anime as much as possible. And Forgetfullness, who is your waifu? |
| Click on this. I dare you. | MAL Fantasy Football League | Currently Watching List RWBY Club. RWBY is anime. Deal with it. |
KyuuAL said: Forgetfulness said: Not_Cake said: Once it's stop being made by those dumb 'Murikanz and is graced by the presence of the great Nipponese, only then is it a good quality cartoon worthy of the title anime.Ok Kyuu, how good must a cartoon be before it becomes an anime? Good bad. Who cares. It has to copy and emulate anime as much as possible. And Forgetfullness, who is your waifu? But anime was trying to copy American cartoons in the beginning. |
KyuuAL said: Good bad. Who cares. It has to copy and emulate anime as much as possible. And Forgetfullness, who is your waifu? Why copy and emulate anime? Why not make something that is better than anime? Why is being considered anime important? Copycat can never surpass the original, we all know that. |
| Redefine the redefinition of anime. |
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MotRin said: Why copy and emulate anime? Why not make something that is better than anime? Something better? I'm all for it. mclovinballz said: But anime was trying to copy American cartoons in the beginning. The Japanese did -- and made the process of animation better. Right now, we can take hundreds of anime series and easily view them to appear better than Western counter parts. This is by visual criteria alone. samishime said: Redefine the redefinition of anime. Rethinking a little bit. The OP made one tiny little mistake on the thread title. The word "redefine" is driving the whole lot of you crazy. After years of discussing this topic, I would love a nickel for every time I read the word "define", "definition", etc. Many of "you" people (over the years) have slapped me over the head with that word. HOWEVER The biggest irony is the general rejection of the Webster's Dictionary definition to anime, which has one flaw - and that's the usage of the word "style". http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anime The word "style" is best used for studio by studio comparison. For example, SHAFT style vs KyoAni style. Anyone who's viewed series made by both studios should instantly know what I am talking about. Want my definition of anime? This is a scratch version. Kyuu's anime definition said: Anime (n) - a type of animation using Japanese principles and techniques. It's not perfect. It can be better. I'll just have to think more about it later. ======= For now, here's my other pet project: http://arcturus.su/wiki/Main_Page Japanese Mahjong. Want to know what makes Japanese Mahjong distinct? Not because Japanese people play it. As an American, I play this game; and I very much enjoy it. If you want to play me, then come at me, bro: http://tenhou.net/0/?L7447 Finally, at Anime Central, I am running three panels and two play events. Fun fun. >:D |
| Click on this. I dare you. | MAL Fantasy Football League | Currently Watching List RWBY Club. RWBY is anime. Deal with it. |
KyuuAL said: mclovinballz said: But anime was trying to copy American cartoons in the beginning. The Japanese did -- and made the process of animation better. Right now, we can take hundreds of anime series and easily view them to appear better than Western counter parts. This is by visual criteria alone. Too bad the Japs can't animate a walk cycle for shit (most studios anyways.) |
mclovinballzApr 15, 2014 3:51 PM
mclovinballz said: And if we use the criteria of "animation" = "things actually being animated and moving," Western animation easily blows anime out of the water.KyuuAL said: mclovinballz said: But anime was trying to copy American cartoons in the beginning. The Japanese did -- and made the process of animation better. Right now, we can take hundreds of anime series and easily view them to appear better than Western counter parts. This is by visual criteria alone. Too bad the Japs can't animate a walk cycle for shit (most studios anyways.) |
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Everything that connects to MAL |
Zalis said: And if we use the criteria of "animation" = "things actually being animated and moving," Western animation easily blows anime out of the water. Seriously, try naming an anime that when you get the side view of a character talking, the mouth actually opens. (That's isn't Kyoani) |
Forgetfulness said: mclovinballz said: Talking about this?Zalis said: And if we use the criteria of "animation" = "things actually being animated and moving," Western animation easily blows anime out of the water. Seriously, try naming an anime that when you get the side view of a character talking, the mouth actually opens. (That's isn't Kyoani) That's still animation. Just not realistic art ._. Probably should have worded it better, think the opposite of that. worldeditor11 said: Given the average budget for Western animation is much more higher than your typical anime , i fail to see why this isn't the case. This is like comparing who have the deeper pockets really which the American cartoons are clearly the winner. True, but if you take some Disney classics or even Loony Toons and compare it with the technology animators have today, there shouldn't be that big of a gap. |
mclovinballzApr 15, 2014 5:47 PM
mclovinballz said: True, but if you take some Disney classics or even Loony Toons and compare it with the technology animators have today, there shouldn't be that big of a gap. You talk as if anime isn't drawn by hand. Technology of hand hasn't improved that much last time I checked. |
MotRin said: mclovinballz said: True, but if you take some Disney classics or even Loony Toons and compare it with the technology animators have today, there shouldn't be that big of a gap. You talk as if anime isn't drawn by hand. Technology of hand hasn't improved that much last time I checked. Pen Tablets with a good program can get the same results and have more options to accomplish the same goal. |
mclovinballz said: MotRin said: mclovinballz said: True, but if you take some Disney classics or even Loony Toons and compare it with the technology animators have today, there shouldn't be that big of a gap. You talk as if anime isn't drawn by hand. Technology of hand hasn't improved that much last time I checked. Pen Tablets with a good program can get the same results and have more options to accomplish the same goal. I fail to see the difference. It's still drawn by hand. |
MotRin said: mclovinballz said: MotRin said: mclovinballz said: True, but if you take some Disney classics or even Loony Toons and compare it with the technology animators have today, there shouldn't be that big of a gap. You talk as if anime isn't drawn by hand. Technology of hand hasn't improved that much last time I checked. Pen Tablets with a good program can get the same results and have more options to accomplish the same goal. I fail to see the difference. It's still drawn by hand. 2d character rigging https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohAVI5rvRRo When you make a mistake in a program like Flash or Photoshop, you just ctrl+z or delete the frame instead of starting from scratch (saving man hours) Layers makes life a hell of a lot easier than cel sheets. Don't have to do this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN-eCBAOw60 Photoshop filters Don't have to take pictures of each frame than put it to film, modern animators hit render and wait. Scale tool. |
mclovinballz said: 2d character rigging https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohAVI5rvRRo When you make a mistake in a program like Flash or Photoshop, you just ctrl+z or delete the frame instead of starting from scratch (saving man hours) Layers makes life a hell of a lot easier than cel sheets. Don't have to do this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN-eCBAOw60 Photoshop filters Don't have to take pictures of each frame than put it to film, modern animators hit render and wait. Scale tool. Except, for each animation of the mouth is a freshly drawn head. In the old day, you can just trace over the base scene, the difference in cost is triviall. |
MotRin said: mclovinballz said: 2d character rigging https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohAVI5rvRRo When you make a mistake in a program like Flash or Photoshop, you just ctrl+z or delete the frame instead of starting from scratch (saving man hours) Layers makes life a hell of a lot easier than cel sheets. Don't have to do this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN-eCBAOw60 Photoshop filters Don't have to take pictures of each frame than put it to film, modern animators hit render and wait. Scale tool. Except, for each animation of the mouth is a freshly drawn head. In the old day, you can just trace over the base scene, the difference in cost is triviall. That's what onion skin is for. You don't have to draw a new head each frame, you can copy the head for as many frames as you want and just make a quick adjustment for each frame if there's movement. |
mclovinballz said: That's what onion skin is for. You don't have to draw a new head each frame, you can copy the head for as many frames as you want and just make a quick adjustment for each frame if there's movement. The proportion of the head, chin, nose, lips change per frame. And like I said, copy the head is the same as tracing over the old head. |
MotRin said: mclovinballz said: That's what onion skin is for. You don't have to draw a new head each frame, you can copy the head for as many frames as you want and just make a quick adjustment for each frame if there's movement. The proportion of the head, chin, nose, lips change per frame. And like I said, copy the head is the same as tracing over the old head. Copying is different than tracing. All I have to do in flash to copy is hold shift and drag the frame over in the timeline. |
Zalis said: And if we use the criteria of "animation" = "things actually being animated and moving," Western animation easily blows anime out of the water. However, it's the various design styles, that we're attracted to. Forgetfulness said: KyuuAL said: Kisaragi Chihaya. Why is that relevant?And Forgetfullness, who is your waifu? Simple. Does anyone here have an animated waifu, that is NOT from any sort of anime? To illustrate the point - sex sells. Why do you think anime is chock full of female characters? I'd say -- there's at least 1:5 ratio of male to female characters. I wouldn't know - I'm not at liberty to actually make this count. Someone oughta do it though. Case in point: Japanese animation is sexy. Western animation is not -- although, you might want to put the Bronies in question. They have a strange attraction to horses... |
| Click on this. I dare you. | MAL Fantasy Football League | Currently Watching List RWBY Club. RWBY is anime. Deal with it. |
| For the record, this is proof that I actually listen to you people: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1150747#msg30095601 I'm just sayin'. |
| Click on this. I dare you. | MAL Fantasy Football League | Currently Watching List RWBY Club. RWBY is anime. Deal with it. |
| This is fucking retarded. People keep bringing up this stupid argument about loosening the definition of anime to include anime style animation from other countries but they have very few examples and just rely on hypothetical series like this example of this anime from Sweden. That is because in reality there are only a few hand select animated series outside of Japan (Avatar, Teen Titans, RWBY) that can really be debatable as anime whereas the vast majority of animation does not resemble anime. Even if we were to consider certain animated series to be anime, who the fuck makes that decision? You can't just open the floodgates and let all animation be considered anime otherwise there would be cartoons like Spongebob and Simpsons and since MAL already includes anime movies then shouldn't pixar and disney animated films also be included? These things are considered by virtually nobody to be anime and by introducing them to a community that is focused on anime those other animated series will either be ignored, get troll ratings and reviews or in some odd case maybe they will become fully integrated within the site. But at that point you have to ask yourself why is the site even called myanimelist anymore? Sure anime may literally mean animation but it is the japanese word of animation and since we don't "discriminate" against non-japanese animation shouldn't we just use the word for animation in the language (english) that most people on the site speak? The current definition of anime may be flawed and incorrect but it is practical and that is all that matters. It is far better to just exclude a couple series and let them be known as anime influenced animation rather than anime instead of just considering everything to be anime. |
Forgetfulness said: KyuuAL said: No, because "waifu" is the Japanese pronunciation of the word, so most people use it to only refer to anime.Zalis said: And if we use the criteria of "animation" = "things actually being animated and moving," Western animation easily blows anime out of the water. However, it's the various design styles, that we're attracted to. Forgetfulness said: KyuuAL said: Kisaragi Chihaya. Why is that relevant?And Forgetfullness, who is your waifu? Simple. Does anyone here have an animated waifu, that is NOT from any sort of anime? To illustrate the point - sex sells. Why do you think anime is chock full of female characters? I'd say -- there's at least 1:5 ratio of male to female characters. I wouldn't know - I'm not at liberty to actually make this count. Someone oughta do it though. Case in point: Japanese animation is sexy. Western animation is not -- although, you might want to put the Bronies in question. They have a strange attraction to horses... Though, Frostblade Irelia from League of Legends is <3 I like Janna. (I didn't like her when she had blue skin, thank god that Riot tweak their model to match Chinese splash art.) |
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| The time of man has come to an end... So many consecutive illogical arguments, Beep.. overload of illogical data. Boop... can not compute. Can not compute, overload incurred, shutdown imminent... Anyways, sorry for the long delay, but I have been traveling xD my bad for starting this discussion in a busy time. Sorry for the long reply, and replying to multiple posts xP Italian pizza can be made in the US, just like sushi can be made in the US, just like American pizza compared to italian pizza is a good example of what is anime-influenced cartoons. The term anime-influenced cartoons do not cover anime that is made outside the borders of Japan. Just like the term american pizza does not cover Italian pizza made in america. Unless you mean american pizza geographically, not in the way it is made. And the best pizza is definitely in Italy, so much better than the american crap xD (ofc it is not all crap, but compared to real italian pizza it is not even close, that is ofc a subjective opinion so not all people would agree.) Japanese-style sushi made in the United states is still sushi, just like japanese-style anime made in the U.S. should be anime, however it is not for no good reason. Like you are saying it is sushi, not sushi-influenced raw fish&rice++ Azu & Kyuu, how about we call anime-influenced cartoons ==> Disney-influenced-japanese-influenced animation? Problems solved. xD Oh and mr good sir Miraclezify, since when was progress always good? Growth and progress is not always a positive thing, they can actually be quite damaging depending on the situation. Also, against progress? I would think this thread is quite progressive, trying to discuss and debate definitions, norms and set rules/values. OH yeah, languages aren`t logical, silent letters and what not, but why not try to simplify the language? Is that not progress? You are telling me: “”anime” in English has already been defined.” and accuse me of being against progress?!? This gave me a good laugh, thanks. As for Forgetfulness xD You ask a nice questions, I will ask you one in return, can Americans make real japanese sushi? If real japanese sushi is not an authentic japanese product, I don`t know what is. And I will give you the answer to that question, yes, yes they can. Oh but if you mean to differentiate two identical products based solely on the geographical position of where they were put together, then they could not. I find differentiating two identical products by giving them two different names because of the geographical they were made illogical. The point of this discussion is to open for more production of japanese styled animation outside of Japan, if the market changes the world will be full of possibilities. If japanese styled anime made outside of Japan would be more recognized, sought after and praised we could see a big increase in that style of animation. Why hold back animators in the rest of the world? If they want to produce that kind of anime, why inhibit them? |
| Are you so busy fighting you cannot see your own ship has set sail? - Iroh |
Atsilan said: As for Forgetfulness xD You ask a nice questions, I will ask you one in return, can Americans make real japanese sushi? If real japanese sushi is not an authentic japanese product, I don`t know what is. And I will give you the answer to that question, yes, yes they can. Oh but if you mean to differentiate two identical products based solely on the geographical position of where they were put together, then they could not. I find differentiating two identical products by giving them two different names because of the geographical they were made illogical. However, they are not identical. Products made in different locations are usually modified to fit with that market. American sushi are bs invented by americans to fit american taste. The same for every other cuisine in America. There is no theoretical because an authentic sushi will not survive outside of Japan. |
MotRin said: Atsilan said: As for Forgetfulness xD You ask a nice questions, I will ask you one in return, can Americans make real japanese sushi? If real japanese sushi is not an authentic japanese product, I don`t know what is. And I will give you the answer to that question, yes, yes they can. Oh but if you mean to differentiate two identical products based solely on the geographical position of where they were put together, then they could not. I find differentiating two identical products by giving them two different names because of the geographical they were made illogical. However, they are not identical. Products made in different locations are usually modified to fit with that market. American sushi are bs invented by americans to fit american taste. The same for every other cuisine in America. There is no theoretical because an authentic sushi will not survive outside of Japan. As it is based on the word "usually" and an assumption that the products are not identical, your conclusion is faulty. I agree, they make bs "lookalike" sushi and they make real stuff, the lookalike/bs stuff that is not real japanese sushi would not be called japanese sushi. It would would be called american sushi though ;) It is not true for the cuisine in America, not all of it is made for the american market. A good amount of restaurants pride themselves on making authentic foods from their country, and offering some things on the menu, that is suitable for the people that cannot handle the authentic food. There is theoretical, because authentic sushi can survive and is surviving outside of Japan. Just like one of my personal favorite chinese restaurants in New York City offers authentic chinese food: chicken feet etc. |
| Are you so busy fighting you cannot see your own ship has set sail? - Iroh |
Atsilan said: MotRin said: However, they are not identical. Products made in different locations are usually modified to fit with that market. American sushi are bs invented by americans to fit american taste. The same for every other cuisine in America. There is no theoretical because an authentic sushi will not survive outside of Japan. As it is based on the word "usually" and an assumption that the products are not identical, your conclusion is faulty. I agree, they make bs "lookalike" sushi and they make real stuff, the lookalike/bs stuff that is not real japanese sushi would not be called japanese sushi. It would would be called american sushi though ;) It is not true for the cuisine in America, not all of it is made for the american market. A good amount of restaurants pride themselves on making authentic foods from their country, and offering some things on the menu, that is suitable for the people that cannot handle the authentic food. There is theoretical, because authentic sushi can survive and is surviving outside of Japan. Just like one of my personal favorite chinese restaurants in New York City offers authentic chinese food: chicken feet etc. Seems legit |
| Words can have more than one definition, OP. Good luck managing a database with every piece of animation ever made. Pretty sure there are non-Japanese cartoons databases out there, look for those. Zalis said: And if we use the criteria of "animation" = "things actually being animated and moving," Western animation easily blows anime out of the water.[/quote]Only if you compare some of Disney's old full animated carefully crafted movies to some low budget seasonal. A more proper comparison, shows the opposite, overall anime does better with 2d animation than the West. If you mean Pixar 3d movies, you may have a point, but then again, Japan is no slouch in that regard either with movies like FF Advent Children, and more recently the Harlock movie. |
on 
Phosef_Phostar said: It's just cartoons from Japan. This. From Crayon Shinchan to Psycho-Pass, they're all anime. |
 |
| Do you use the word Behemoth to refer to a pack of cows? No you don't. Words move to new languages and acquire new meanings. It happens all the time. |
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TheBrainintheJar said: Do you use the word Behemoth to refer to a pack of cows? No you don't. yes, i do |
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