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Jan 19, 2009 12:19 PM

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hi, my name is ジミー
Jan 19, 2009 12:28 PM

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wこのスレは必ずやスパムにいってしまうんです~
ま、しようがないかもしれんないな~、日本の話をすればここの方はちょっと・・変になっちゃう
あのさぁ、sniWさん、いったい何を考えているのか?このスレははっきりなんかないだろう!?

逆にかなり紛らわしいけどw

Oh yeah, I forgot my introduction..

日本人のスパイの皆さんへ、よろしくお願いします。
実はね、僕がナンパの大王でございます。僕は、毎日色んな所で色んな女性をファックしますね。僕の住むアメリカでは、ある「女性マスタ」と言う評判がありますね。。

これで、もう間違いなく僕の本当の気持ちが分かりましたよね。
hikkyJan 19, 2009 12:48 PM
Jan 19, 2009 12:56 PM

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sniW said:
Sin said:
llxwarbirdxll said:
初めまして、Ricardo Ramirezです。
50歳で、趣味はfappingです。
よろしくお願いします。
Lmfao
はは・・・オナニーってなんだか醜い趣味ですよね
Didn't our stalking Japanese friends give us a more fun alternative? fapfap=シコシコ Ugh, the noise imagery (if there is such a phrase) lol ^_^;;

But yeah.. I'm a more confused by this thread than anything too.

Edit: ^lol at ze master above me
Jan 19, 2009 1:15 PM

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tr1ggers4d said:
白人看不懂。


Hahaha true true xD for most people ^^

But lol at the argument between Trigger and ZoiQ
Jan 19, 2009 1:25 PM

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hikky said:
「女性マスタ」


^lol, I'm sure.

He probably started the thread out of boredom, that and some perverse love for anything Japanese.

tr1ggers4d said:
id said:
it's 洋人, not 白人..

I prefer 白鬼
and also:
(image goes here)


ahh yes, 白鬼. I had forgotten, but i like it. Also, translate the last character for me, I don't recognize it (on the shirt).

Edit: Scratch the last part, just occurred to me. Oh the irony.
aisakkuJan 19, 2009 1:31 PM
#dontcare
Jan 19, 2009 2:02 PM

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aisakku said:

Eisley, you don't use を with 好き.


Can you explain why?
I wrote it according to my undestanding of sentence in Japanese:

A sentence where subject is doing something to the object.

'Subject' (I/you/dog) + wa/ga (は・が) + 'Object' (he/water/cat) + o (を) + 'Verb' (drink/sleep/hate) + desu/da/imasu (です・だ・います)
Jan 19, 2009 2:04 PM

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Suki isn't a verb.
#dontcare
Jan 19, 2009 2:08 PM

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aisakku said:
Suki isn't a verb.


Eh? What it is then? o.O

...doesn't matter, what I use instead of を?
Jan 19, 2009 2:12 PM

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好き is an adjectival. More specifically a na-adj.

You use ga. either way, there's help clubs for this stuff.
#dontcare
Jan 19, 2009 2:19 PM

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aisakku said:

好き is an adjectival. More specifically a na-adj.
You use ga.


K, thx, I'll remember it. Anyway my 日本語 is too lame to join any serious club.

P.S. If it's not a verb I guess I can't use います and only です・だ at the end...
Jan 19, 2009 2:45 PM

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These kinds of problems are what you run into when you rely on grammar rules to speak. I've said it a billion times but grammar studies should come after you know the language to relative fluency. The grammar rules aside, you need to get used to hearing words used in their proper context. You might make mistakes still, but I think ultimately it's the better path to fluency. Kids don't study grammar as they learn their language either.
Jan 19, 2009 3:32 PM

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lol trig where the hell is that shirt from.
Jan 19, 2009 3:34 PM

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hikky said:
wこのスレは必ずやスパムにいってしまうんです~
ま、しようがないかもしれんないな~、日本の話をすればここの方はちょっと・・変になっちゃう
あのさぁ、sniWさん、いったい何を考えているのか?このスレははっきりなんかないだろう!?

逆にかなり紛らわしいけどw

あ~あ。 やっぱりスパムになってしまいましたね :'(
MALの掲示板で日本語を知ってる人や日本語を習いたい人がたくさんいると思って、このスレを始めた。
フフ、でもけっこうおもろくなってきたでしょ?


hikky said:
These kinds of problems are what you run into when you rely on grammar rules to speak. I've said it a billion times but grammar studies should come after you know the language to relative fluency. The grammar rules aside, you need to get used to hearing words used in their proper context. You might make mistakes still, but I think ultimately it's the better path to fluency. Kids don't study grammar as they learn their language either.

Yeah, I still don't really have a firm understanding of Japanese grammar (or English grammar, for that matter), even though I was raised speaking it. Being fairly fluent conversationally has helped me out a lot though. It definitely helps to hear other people speak the language.
Jan 19, 2009 3:37 PM

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hikky said:
These kinds of problems are what you run into when you rely on grammar rules to speak. I've said it a billion times but grammar studies should come after you know the language to relative fluency. The grammar rules aside, you need to get used to hearing words used in their proper context. You might make mistakes still, but I think ultimately it's the better path to fluency. Kids don't study grammar as they learn their language either.


Honestly Hikky, I'm a person who needs to see the rules, specifically on word manipulation in order to properly grasp a language. I agree with you to a point, you need to saturate yourself with a language, learn proper context, and then look further into the grammatical nature of it. However, I still see an important use for grammar.

Edit: This could just be remaining from my experience from latin, though I've felt, especially after i studied verbal manipulation in japanese (adjectival obviously being similar) that my comprehension ability skyrocketed.
aisakkuJan 19, 2009 3:43 PM
#dontcare
Jan 19, 2009 3:46 PM

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ZoiQ said:
lol trig where the hell is that shirt from.

it's from yellow fever(wong fu productions)- you fool
i was going to get one for free from my chinese club at school, it was our club t-shirt or something
but some random korean fob stole the shirt that was reserved for me :< :<

aisakku said:
hikky said:
「女性マスタ」


^lol, I'm sure.

He probably started the thread out of boredom, that and some perverse love for anything Japanese.

tr1ggers4d said:
id said:
it's 洋人, not 白人..

I prefer 白鬼
and also:
(image goes here)


ahh yes, 白鬼. I had forgotten, but i like it. Also, translate the last character for me, I don't recognize it (on the shirt).

Edit: Scratch the last part, just occurred to me. Oh the irony.

I've seen worse, like white kids wearing the shrit who can't even read it, but wear it just cause it's got asian characters in "funny, cool font"
Jan 19, 2009 4:33 PM

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sniW said:
hikky said:
wこのスレは必ずやスパムにいってしまうんです~
ま、しようがないかもしれんないな~、日本の話をすればここの方はちょっと・・変になっちゃう
あのさぁ、sniWさん、いったい何を考えているのか?このスレははっきりなんかないだろう!?

逆にかなり紛らわしいけどw

あ~あ。 やっぱりスパムになってしまいましたね :'(
MALの掲示板で日本語を知ってる人や日本語を習いたい人がたくさんいると思って、このスレを始めた。
フフ、でもけっこうおもろくなってきたでしょ?


中国語が始まった時、絶対スパムだと思ったけど・・まだここにいるからやっぱりスパムじゃないそうですね。
多分日本語が分かる人より習いたい人の方が全然多いと思うけどね。ま、僕自身にもぺらぺらじゃないんだし。
でもそうだちょっと面白くなってきやがったぜ!オッ!

(その喋りかたは冗談だよw。普通にアニメのような台詞を言えないぞ。)

sniW said:

Yeah, I still don't really have a firm understanding of Japanese grammar (or English grammar, for that matter), even though I was raised speaking it. Being fairly fluent conversationally has helped me out a lot though. It definitely helps to hear other people speak the language.


Me neither. My grammar is far from perfect but I still think I speak much more naturally than people who have been learning in classes for the amount of time I've been doing self study. I didn't speak it as a kid of course but I've surrounded myself with it for quite a while now that I get a fair sense of what sounds normal and weird. There's some grammatical things I don't understand but for those I just look up examples of real use of the word rather than relying on grammar rules. I think grammar rules can build weird habits but that's just my personal opinion I guess, not trying to assume to those that swear by them that it's inherently wrong...

aisakku said:
hikky said:
These kinds of problems are what you run into when you rely on grammar rules to speak. I've said it a billion times but grammar studies should come after you know the language to relative fluency. The grammar rules aside, you need to get used to hearing words used in their proper context. You might make mistakes still, but I think ultimately it's the better path to fluency. Kids don't study grammar as they learn their language either.


Honestly Hikky, I'm a person who needs to see the rules, specifically on word manipulation in order to properly grasp a language. I agree with you to a point, you need to saturate yourself with a language, learn proper context, and then look further into the grammatical nature of it. However, I still see an important use for grammar.

Edit: This could just be remaining from my experience from latin, though I've felt, especially after i studied verbal manipulation in japanese (adjectival obviously being similar) that my comprehension ability skyrocketed.


Well, the only thing I'd say is how did you get by in English as a 2-7 year old?
hikkyJan 19, 2009 4:38 PM
Jan 19, 2009 4:39 PM
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This thread is some deep shit.
Jan 19, 2009 4:44 PM

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初めまして、nameです。
age歳で、趣味はhobbyです。
よろしくお願いします。
Jan 19, 2009 6:18 PM

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hikky said:
毎日色んな所で色んな女性をファックしますね
alright i roffled
Jan 19, 2009 9:44 PM

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Esley said:
K, thx, I'll remember it. Anyway my 日本語 is too lame to join any serious club.


大丈夫!ほら
Jan 19, 2009 10:24 PM

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kupaziom said:
This thread is some deep shit.

and im without a paddle D=
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Jan 20, 2009 7:35 AM

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こんにちわみんな

Lol I only know basic. If I don't have babelfish I can't read what's posted.

Jan 20, 2009 7:47 AM

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うぃぃす!kawaii_kupoです、よろしく!これを見たばかりから参加したいと思う。大学で三年間に日本語を勉強してきた。今私は大阪に留学してるからもっと勉強になってがんばります〜!
漢字も文法が下手からなおしてくれない?よろしくね〜

関西地方に暮らす人か関西にいたことある人いないの?
関西弁が下手ですがww
Jan 20, 2009 7:51 AM

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私はゴジラがレイプした。。。
Jan 20, 2009 8:16 AM

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Scud said:
私はゴジラがレイプした。。。

LOL それはエピックでした

Jan 20, 2009 8:22 AM

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Scud said:
私はゴジラがレイプした。。。

うそっまだ生きてる!!?っっw

Jan 20, 2009 8:34 AM

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hikky said:

Well, the only thing I'd say is how did you get by in English as a 2-7 year old?


You learn grammatical rules when you're younger whether you chose to or not.
#dontcare
Jan 20, 2009 9:46 AM

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aisakku said:
hikky said:

Well, the only thing I'd say is how did you get by in English as a 2-7 year old?


You learn grammatical rules when you're younger whether you chose to or not.


Since when? Ask any 2-7 year old what a preposition is and see if he can tell you. I personally didn't know a thing about grammar even for a couple years after I was literate, and I still understood and spoke English fine at that point.
Jan 20, 2009 10:34 AM

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That doesn't mean you don't learn general rules hikky. Even if you don't know the names for things, you learn the rules as a child, and how things properly fit together. That would be grammar.
#dontcare
Jan 20, 2009 10:53 AM

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aisakku said:
That doesn't mean you don't learn general rules hikky. Even if you don't know the names for things, you learn the rules as a child, and how things properly fit together. That would be grammar.


You don't learn the rules. You learn intuitively what sounds right. This is the important distinction that I am trying to make. A young child can not tell you why something like, for example, fake caveman talk, IE "This big piece food. Look yummy" is incorrect, they just think it sounds funny. You develop native fluency by storing up large amounts of set phrases and examples in your head and then mimicking them, not by applying grammar rules to a bunch of vocabulary and forming those phrases on your own. Even now, I'm sure you don't think of things grammar-wise. If I said "The old little lady who lived in the shoe", it sounds wrong, doesn't it? Some people would probably just read it as "little old" without even thinking about it. That's the kind of thing you need for native fluency.
Jan 20, 2009 11:15 AM

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You're still learning the rules of grammar through a different method dude... I don't care how you try to logic out of it. You have learned rules of grammar, even if it's just based on what "sounds right." You may not even know the rule, or be able to tell anything about it, but that doesn't mean you don't follow it. You have learned the grammar through alternative methods based mainly upon repetition.

Cue response trying to deny it again with some backwards logic that ignores my main point anyways.

You CAN NOT speak fluently without knowing grammar. Subject verb object. prepositions coming before the noun. You may not know what that means, but you know that it "sounds wrong" if you don't do it like that. Basic rules of grammar are learned at a young age.
#dontcare
Jan 20, 2009 12:15 PM

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aisakku said:
You're still learning the rules of grammar through a different method dude... I don't care how you try to logic out of it. You have learned rules of grammar, even if it's just based on what "sounds right." You may not even know the rule, or be able to tell anything about it, but that doesn't mean you don't follow it. You have learned the grammar through alternative methods based mainly upon repetition.

Cue response trying to deny it again with some backwards logic that ignores my main point anyways.

You CAN NOT speak fluently without knowing grammar. Subject verb object. prepositions coming before the noun. You may not know what that means, but you know that it "sounds wrong" if you don't do it like that. Basic rules of grammar are learned at a young age.


i agree with both you guys, it is best to become fluent by immersion as one grows up in their native language and you start "picking up" these grammar rules and concepts cause of conditioning. you are told whats right and wrong or you see from example what is considered right and wrong. children say funny things sometimes ^^ but later their proficiency of "proper language" evolves as you get more education. in linguistics class they teach about breaking down language into like a math equation or something. but heck, language breaks its own "rules" practically all the time. like for some arbitrary reason, you can't use を with 好き, you can't say "thinked" because it's "thought" , and la muerte is a feminine noun even tho it ends with "e". there are exceptions that you just have to know by memorization. but heck language is a bunch of made up stuff in general, and its constantly changing, cause people create with regional dialect, slang, and dropping outdated language.

i think speaking and constantly using it is the most important in fluency. being able to think within the language and the cultural mindset judge that.

probably goes without saying but getting thrown in the middle of japan is the best way to become fluent in japanese =P but you also have to put the effort to communicate with people too (cause i hear of a few people that dont bother improving even though they've been here like 5 years or more) though since one is already conditioned and cultured into one set way of thinking it's considered faster to learn in a shorter period of time to attain the language by approaching it relative to japanese language rules explained in your own language (although its bad to think with ones native language and then translate into japanese, but at some point you'll need to think within the japanese completely) than to say think like a blank slate child completely.
Jan 20, 2009 12:28 PM

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aisakku said:
You're still learning the rules of grammar through a different method dude... I don't care how you try to logic out of it. You have learned rules of grammar, even if it's just based on what "sounds right." You may not even know the rule, or be able to tell anything about it, but that doesn't mean you don't follow it. You have learned the grammar through alternative methods based mainly upon repetition.

Cue response trying to deny it again with some backwards logic that ignores my main point anyways.

You CAN NOT speak fluently without knowing grammar. Subject verb object. prepositions coming before the noun. You may not know what that means, but you know that it "sounds wrong" if you don't do it like that. Basic rules of grammar are learned at a young age.


If you don't know what it's called, don't know what means, and don't know when it applies, I have no idea how you could possibly consider that "knowing the grammar rules". You know the proper usage of the language which those rules serve to reflect and explain.

But again, there is an important distinction there, because knowing how to speak grammatically correct English or Japanese and knowing why they are grammatically correct are two different things. In knowing the grammar as an isolated concept and attempting to apply it to your use of the language, you are consciously attempting to figure out the correct way to say something. In subconsciously understanding how things are supposed to be said and how they should sound, you are instantly and seemingly inexplicably recognizing if something is correct or incorrect.

However, the question of whether you "learn the grammar" as a child is largely irrelevant, and if we are assuming that you do "learn the grammar" in a basic sense, that would be all the more reason not to isolate grammar study, as you would pick it up in normal exposure to the language anyway.

Here's a funny comic related to this, do you think the average native speaker would notice this "mistake" at all?



The reason it doesn't sound funny to a native speaker is because fluent speech and absolute proper grammar are different things. A fluent speaker will end sentences in prepositions all the time, and yet is still considered fluent. The rules don't always match up with what is natural, and you are not speaking based on the rules or a knowledge of them, you are speaking based on what is natural. If you think of ebonics or other dialects like that, they're awfully incorrect from a grammatical standpoint. Are kids raised in those environments also learning grammar rules? Of course not, because you learn and mimic what you hear, not what your language is supposed to be if spoken in an absolutely correct manner.
Jan 20, 2009 3:30 PM

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Your logic is still off dude. I'm talking about the basic rules of grammar. You learn them, and how to manipulate sentence structure when you are younger. Talking about written and spoken grammar is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than what I'm talking about right now.

Feel free to continue denying things, but you can not hold conversation without subconscious knowledge of of how to manipulate words to form a meaning. As a child you learn basic grammar subconsciously. What does it matter if you're not aware of it? What does it matter if it doesn't match the more advance grammatical rules of writing? You still learn basic rules.

Honestly though dude, you're just trying to argue pointless semantics at this point. I'm done. What you're defining as "proper usage" I am defining as grammatical knowledge. OBVIOUSLY speech differs from the written. OBVIOUSLY people make mistakes often enough for those mistakes to seem perfectly natural. This is one way that language evolves.

You're merely pointing out the random inconsistencies within language itself. I'm well aware of these, however this isn't even what I'm addressing.

As a youth, you learn the basic grammar to manipulate the language. Subject, verb object in English. Try to put them in other orders. You can't, because it completely changes the meanings or makes things meaningless (THIS IS A GENERALIZATION). You learn things such as this subconsciously. Later in life you learn the more intricate workings and rules of grammar through education.

Either way, I'm done. I'm not arguing semantics.
#dontcare
Jan 20, 2009 4:09 PM

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1747
aisakku said:
Your logic is still off dude. I'm talking about the basic rules of grammar. You learn them, and how to manipulate sentence structure when you are younger. Talking about written and spoken grammar is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than what I'm talking about right now.

Feel free to continue denying things, but you can not hold conversation without subconscious knowledge of of how to manipulate words to form a meaning. As a child you learn basic grammar subconsciously. What does it matter if you're not aware of it? What does it matter if it doesn't match the more advance grammatical rules of writing? You still learn basic rules.

Honestly though dude, you're just trying to argue pointless semantics at this point. I'm done. What you're defining as "proper usage" I am defining as grammatical knowledge. OBVIOUSLY speech differs from the written. OBVIOUSLY people make mistakes often enough for those mistakes to seem perfectly natural. This is one way that language evolves.

You're merely pointing out the random inconsistencies within language itself. I'm well aware of these, however this isn't even what I'm addressing.

As a youth, you learn the basic grammar to manipulate the language. Subject, verb object in English. Try to put them in other orders. You can't, because it completely changes the meanings or makes things meaningless (THIS IS A GENERALIZATION). You learn things such as this subconsciously. Later in life you learn the more intricate workings and rules of grammar through education.

Either way, I'm done. I'm not arguing semantics.


I don't understand why everything has to turn into a big angry debate. This is not about logic, it's just a question of what information allows you to speak in a natural manner. I personally think it's fairly evident that you learn by accumulating a mountain of examples of how the words are used with each other.. children just start speaking at one point, and it's not as though they're carefully analyzing the things they hear and consciously searching for usage patterns.

But honestly, I think you're the only one arguing over semantics here, as I'm not trying to redefine what it means to learn grammar rules. I would think most people would agree that you know grammar rules once you've specifically studied grammar rules and learned what they're called and how they work.
Jan 21, 2009 8:04 AM

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Such long discussions...anyway, both of you have a point. You learn language through adapting to your environment in initiative. That means you'll need to mimic others to blend in. After you understand some basic that's where learning advance grammar comes in.

But that's not always the case. There are still weird grammars that I only read or hear. After that, I started on using them. I even learned some advanced grammar myself before learning it in my English class.

In my opinion, it's like programming. You'll learn something if you need something. If you lack the resources for programming, you start to learn more so you can code your idea in. What you sought first will also be the thing you'll learn first. I myself resort to self studying.

Jan 21, 2009 10:28 AM

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日本語で書いてください
Jan 21, 2009 11:13 AM

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日本語でおk
Jan 21, 2009 11:14 AM

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Scud said:
日本語で書いてください

そうだよ!みんな、Scudさんみたいに日本語で書いてよ~う。
そうしたら日本語の勉強になるし・・
Jan 21, 2009 4:32 PM

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あ、そうだよね忘れちまったぞ
文法!異論!喧嘩!怒り!
よし!日本語で詳しいことを書きました!w
Jan 21, 2009 5:00 PM

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米なさい

久しい日本語タイプ 硬いです

Jan 21, 2009 5:41 PM

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よー。今から晩御飯を食べるつもりけど何を食べようかな。あまり料理がうまくないからまたSubwayでも食べよっか。よし、決定。
Jan 21, 2009 5:53 PM

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386
Sylpheed said:
米なさい

久しい日本語タイプ 硬いです


I'm pretty sure you need to go back and hit the books. Amusing though.
#dontcare
Jan 21, 2009 7:05 PM

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Fui said:
よー。今から晩御飯を食べるつもりけど何を食べようかな。あまり料理がうまくないからまたSubwayでも食べよっか。よし、決定。
美味しかったか? 私はサンドイッチが大好きだよ!
Jan 21, 2009 7:20 PM

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aisakku said:
Sylpheed said:
米なさい

久しい日本語タイプ 硬いです


I'm pretty sure you need to go back and hit the books. Amusing though.

Lol, babelfish translated those into:
"The United States do Long Japanese type it is hard, is"
I don't know how it ended up like that ><

Lol, it took me minutes to type that. I don't need to read books or anything since I'm not pushing myself to learning this. Actually, it's enough for me to understand what the characters are talking about. No need to learn how to write those mindfuck japanese characters.

I just find it fun to post here.

Sorry, can't type all that in Japanese ^^

Jan 21, 2009 7:24 PM

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1747
Fui said:
よー。今から晩御飯を食べるつもりけど何を食べようかな。あまり料理がうまくないからまたSubwayでも食べよっか。よし、決定。


Subwayって美味しいね。僕がBurger Kingで昼御飯を食べた・・久ぶりのワッパーはうまかったけどよ、食いながら「ああ、これは非常に不健康だ!」と考え込んでしまって、晩御飯は鶏肉と野菜に決めた~。
Jan 21, 2009 7:36 PM

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windy said:
Fui said:
よー。今から晩御飯を食べるつもりけど何を食べようかな。あまり料理がうまくないからまたSubwayでも食べよっか。よし、決定。
美味しかったか? 私はサンドイッチが大好きだよ!

うん、5ドルフットロング最高!毎日食べて大丈夫かな。。。ほかの食べ物を試した方がいいかも。

hikky said:
Fui said:
よー。今から晩御飯を食べるつもりけど何を食べようかな。あまり料理がうまくないからまたSubwayでも食べよっか。よし、決定。


Subwayって美味しいね。僕がBurger Kingで昼御飯を食べた・・久ぶりのワッパーはうまかったけどよ、食いながら「ああ、これは非常に不健康だ!」と考え込んでしまって、晩御飯は鶏肉と野菜に決めた~。

僕も鶏肉の食事をよく作ります。かなり簡単だからな。親子どんぶりとか。
Jan 21, 2009 7:51 PM

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hikky said:
晩御飯は鶏肉と野菜に決めた~。
*グーグー* *Q*
私にはnoodlesを食べた。ブランドでも美味しかただ。

(is there a word in japanese for the kind of noodles i ate? like this, just boiled in water and eaten)
windyJan 21, 2009 7:56 PM
Jan 21, 2009 7:53 PM

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May 2008
1747
Fui said:
毎日食べて大丈夫かな。。。


そうですね。でも塩っぽい。。 そんなに塩がなければ僕も毎日食いたくなるよ。

まぁ、しおがない!

・・・

ほら、「しお」とか「しよう」

・・・



・・・

._.

windy said:
hikky said:
晩御飯は鶏肉と野菜に決めた~。
*グーグー* *Q*
私にはnoodlesを食べた。ブランドでも美味しかただ。

(is there a word in japanese for the kind of noodles i ate? like this, just boiled in water and eaten)


Probably not a native word for them, I'd just use マカロニ
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