| Thought this was interesting: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=485740#485740 In the link above Dormcat from ANN's forum wrote this in regards to the article: Nine lines out of fifty pages (on document p.49 / file p. 52). The news feature gives an impression that Japanese MoFA issued this formal statement on behalf of anime and only anime. That is not quite the case here. It is a report on the reform of regulations and policies of the United States requested by the government of Japan. Copyright protection is just one of many, many issues mentioned in the report. The first paragraph of the news wrote: The Japanese government issued a formal statement of requests to the government of the United States on regulatory reform and market competition policy on October 18, and included a request for the United States to help stop the unauthorized reproduction and distribution of Japanese animation online. |
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| I'm probably completely on the wrong side, but seriously fan-subbing is killing the industry, and the truth is fansubbers are thinking they are doing people a service by helping stuff get mainstream attention, but they are not, I admit I really have no place talking about this because I have downloaded and used Fansubs as well but I have a lot of Anime DVD's in my collection because I have a lot of friends in the industry that I know and love talking to and I want to see them continue working and see anime continue to come to North America and fansubbers are not helping anyone. What really grinds my gears are these pious people who complain that ANIME is too expensive. What horseshit, GET OFF Your lazy asses and work for it. I'm sorry but seriously, some of you people are so complacent and lazy to not even bother ensuring more anime comes our way. I personally think Shinichi Watanabe aka "Nabeshin" had a lot of balls to tell people the truth about illegal downloading and fansubbing. I personally however believe fansubbing is okay until a show is licensed AND THEN YOU MUST STOP, for those who have not stopped you know what your doing is wrong and yet you continue to do it. |
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Siing said: Im still scared of a day where fansubs etc are completly elimentated, i just hope that never comes... Seriously I hope it does, because it hurts the industry. |
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| ITT we play devil's advocate |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| Not everyone can understand Japanese anyways.. That's where the fansubbers come in, because not all dvds are subbed anyways, or at least I think. |
| I agree with fansubbing to an extent, I watch the show, and if it's good enough, I'll purchase it when it comes out in the US, simple as that, I don't know about everyone else, but I delete my anime after watching, i'm against this whole silly stop fansubbers from subbing, etc., most cease distribution naturally when it's licensed anyways and it's good for finding anime that's actually worth watching, and that may be why some companies (mainly the ones that license and spend lots of money trying to market crappy anime) are ticked off vs companies that pull off some amazing stuff but don't have the initial money to market it off..., in which case the companies complaining should spend less money marketing and more money towards awesome shows, however I really have no idea of the true situation ATM in Japan |
  Dibs on Ishida! |
Akari_House said: The news feature gives an impression that Japanese MoFA issued this formal statement on behalf of anime and only anime. That is not quite the case here. It is a report on the reform of regulations and policies of the United States requested by the government of Japan. Copyright protection is just one of many, many issues mentioned in the report. The first paragraph of the news wrote: The Japanese government issued a formal statement of requests to the government of the United States on regulatory reform and market competition policy on October 18, and included a request for the United States to help stop the unauthorized reproduction and distribution of Japanese animation online. I was wondering about that. I thought the whole thing seemed somewhat odd...now it makes more sense. Thanks for posting! |
DeathfireD said: Japan called, They want their anime back. :P Wins the thread. JackCox said: What really grinds my gears are these pious people who complain that ANIME is too expensive. What horseshit, GET OFF Your lazy asses and work for it. I'm sorry but seriously, some of you people are so complacent and lazy to not even bother ensuring more anime comes our way. Let me explain something to you, short stuff. I have been living away from my parents since I was 18 years old. And you know what? I don't have mommy and daddy to pay for my roof, let alone goddamn $30 a pop DVDs, that I happen to enjoy, and are often the only thing that cut the "pain". And I work hard to even keep a roof over my head. So you know what? If I don't want to have to spend $30 to watch 4 episodes before I buy it (yes, yes! I actually buy the stuff that I burn! I don't burn it if I don't buy it!!!), when I'm "no worse" than 90% of the US that pirates music that they actually like... so fucking WHAT? JackCox said: I personally however believe fansubbing is okay until a show is licensed AND THEN YOU MUST STOP, for those who have not stopped you know what your doing is wrong and yet you continue to do it. No one is debating this. To be frank, it's illegal always. The copyright of the show and characters imply that you're not supposed to reproduce it at all, licensed or not. And, as so many have pointed out: most fansub groups do quit when licensed. -- Now then, speaking from a "soapbox" of someone who does fansub (Long Live Static-Subs~), all that I have to say: is let those cops and corporate bastards come. If they take me to jail, guess what? I'll have better food than I got now, a roof over my head with no questions, and fuck all to Japan, because I sure as hell won't be spending any money on Japanese anime while there, will I?! |
JackCox said: I'm probably completely on the wrong side, but seriously fan-subbing is killing the industry, and the truth is fansubbers are thinking they are doing people a service by helping stuff get mainstream attention, but they are not, I admit I really have no place talking about this because I have downloaded and used Fansubs as well but I have a lot of Anime DVD's in my collection because I have a lot of friends in the industry that I know and love talking to and I want to see them continue working and see anime continue to come to North America and fansubbers are not helping anyone. What really grinds my gears are these pious people who complain that ANIME is too expensive. What horseshit, GET OFF Your lazy asses and work for it. I'm sorry but seriously, some of you people are so complacent and lazy to not even bother ensuring more anime comes our way. I personally think Shinichi Watanabe aka "Nabeshin" had a lot of balls to tell people the truth about illegal downloading and fansubbing. I personally however believe fansubbing is okay until a show is licensed AND THEN YOU MUST STOP, for those who have not stopped you know what your doing is wrong and yet you continue to do it. Perhaps the fansubbers think they way I do, maybe not. But I have always wated for the day when the american anime industry would fall as I believe if your not going to do it right (as 95% of dubs fail but this is my personal opinion) you don't do it at all. What i see in the future is this, Anime companys in america will lose their licenses as japan cuts them off to compensate for money as a result it will crash. Japan then sticks to releasing in their country continue making there great amounts of money and not lose anything rather fansubbers go or not. Because its a fact that fansubbers do not effect japan at all. It's on TV for god sakes almost every series is broadcast on national airways one way or another. Anything that says other wise is just the japanese being greedy, this is my opinion. |
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JackCox said: I'm probably completely on the wrong side, but seriously fan-subbing is killing the industry, and the truth is fansubbers are thinking they are doing people a service by helping stuff get mainstream attention, but they are not, I admit I really have no place talking about this because I have downloaded and used Fansubs as well but I have a lot of Anime DVD's in my collection because I have a lot of friends in the industry that I know and love talking to and I want to see them continue working and see anime continue to come to North America and fansubbers are not helping anyone. What really grinds my gears are these pious people who complain that ANIME is too expensive. What horseshit, GET OFF Your lazy asses and work for it. I'm sorry but seriously, some of you people are so complacent and lazy to not even bother ensuring more anime comes our way. I personally think Shinichi Watanabe aka "Nabeshin" had a lot of balls to tell people the truth about illegal downloading and fansubbing. I personally however believe fansubbing is okay until a show is licensed AND THEN YOU MUST STOP, for those who have not stopped you know what your doing is wrong and yet you continue to do it. Based upon what has been said here and at another site... Let's see, you have 80 anime DVDs so far, but does that include ones that you won in contests, you got for free from industry friends and such and you have $200 (month or week?), to spend on anime. I hope your not lying on that other site (you know where) about your situation, that would be disgusting and show how villainous you really are. I did have morals I did keep until I had access to fansubs just recently. I'm already planning to buy certain series based upon 3-4 episodes. If ef is licensed before its done being subbed, I'll put it on hold and wait to buy official DVDs. That's practically the only moral I have left and I will keep it. I'll buy Code Geass, even after seeing all 25 episodes of Season 1. I'll remain true to this moral. Some of us don't have jobs, whether it be too young or bad economic conditions. I, myself, try, I stress, try to buy anywhere from 1-5 DVDs a month, why? I'm doing the best I can to support this industry. If you expect every Tom, Dick and Harry to spend $250 a month or week on anime, your crazy. Only rich people can ask that of others. You once said your a pampered college student in one thread at other site, well, I'm sure your parents also pamper your otaku and anime fandom too. I'm pretty sure in an IRC conversation I recall you saying you didn't have a job because you had college first and foremost to deal with. I believe this to be true and your nothing but a hypocrite. Thank You and Good Day. |
| Meh, I don't see why they are so peeved. The way I see it, the fansubs are a great way to get publicity for the different anime titles overseas. If they cut off these online sources, it would probably hurt their sales more than help them. For example, I've finished watching the entire series for Kanon 2006 a few days ago, and I'm in love with it. I just heard that ADV had recently announced that they will license Kanon 2006, and I'm completely hyped. Once the dvds come out, I'll be one of the first to be in line to buy them. Of course, had this never been on the web to begin with, I would never had known about much less buy the dvds once it was licensed. |
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Xinil said: NOoooo CR will never go down LONG LIVE CRInteresting. Very interesting. Crunchy roll is gonna go downnnnn. |
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Xinil said: NOoooo CR will never go down LONG LIVE CRInteresting. Very interesting. Crunchy roll is gonna go downnnnn. |
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JLS said: JackCox said: I'm probably completely on the wrong side, but seriously fan-subbing is killing the industry, and the truth is fansubbers are thinking they are doing people a service by helping stuff get mainstream attention, but they are not, I admit I really have no place talking about this because I have downloaded and used Fansubs as well but I have a lot of Anime DVD's in my collection because I have a lot of friends in the industry that I know and love talking to and I want to see them continue working and see anime continue to come to North America and fansubbers are not helping anyone. What really grinds my gears are these pious people who complain that ANIME is too expensive. What horseshit, GET OFF Your lazy asses and work for it. I'm sorry but seriously, some of you people are so complacent and lazy to not even bother ensuring more anime comes our way. I personally think Shinichi Watanabe aka "Nabeshin" had a lot of balls to tell people the truth about illegal downloading and fansubbing. I personally however believe fansubbing is okay until a show is licensed AND THEN YOU MUST STOP, for those who have not stopped you know what your doing is wrong and yet you continue to do it. Based upon what has been said here and at another site... Let's see, you have 80 anime DVDs so far, but does that include ones that you won in contests, you got for free from industry friends and such and you have $200 (month or week?), to spend on anime. I hope your not lying on that other site (you know where) about your situation, that would be disgusting and show how villainous you really are. I did have morals I did keep until I had access to fansubs just recently. I'm already planning to buy certain series based upon 3-4 episodes. If ef is licensed before its done being subbed, I'll put it on hold and wait to buy official DVDs. That's practically the only moral I have left and I will keep it. I'll buy Code Geass, even after seeing all 25 episodes of Season 1. I'll remain true to this moral. Some of us don't have jobs, whether it be too young or bad economic conditions. I, myself, try, I stress, try to buy anywhere from 1-5 DVDs a month, why? I'm doing the best I can to support this industry. If you expect every Tom, Dick and Harry to spend $250 a month or week on anime, your crazy. Only rich people can ask that of others. You once said your a pampered college student in one thread at other site, well, I'm sure your parents also pamper your otaku and anime fandom too. I'm pretty sure in an IRC conversation I recall you saying you didn't have a job because you had college first and foremost to deal with. I believe this to be true and your nothing but a hypocrite. Thank You and Good Day. That is completely false. |
JackCoxOct 26, 2007 6:14 PM
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JackCox said: This man is a liar and also an angel of falsehood, he does not know me. He also needs to know that I DO HAVE A JOB! Apparently he thinks he knows me, This man also hates everything, everything I like he seems to hate. Job aside, here's my response to -you-... I know -you- well enough, I'd say. -You're- like an open book or rather, -your- life is an open book, based on -your- Wikipedia profile, -your- ANN posts, -your- AOD posts and here of what kind of person -you- are. I see -you- quite clearly. Not everyone in the world is same. We all have different tastes Mr.Cox. -You- need to understand that, that explains why I hate everything -you- like. It's very silly if -you- think everyone is or should be like -you- or so I've observed in the months I've known -you-. It's really ridiculous. :) EDIT:: You decided to edit your statement, oh really? Too bad I have the quote already. :) EDIT:: Sorry for getting this topic off-topic, but I felt Mr.Self-Absorbed Contradiction needed to be called out and on the spot. |
WhimsOct 26, 2007 6:24 PM
| I think Sumiregawa-kun already won this thread. Long live Static-Subs! |
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JLS said: JackCox said: This man is a liar and also an angel of falsehood, he does not know me. He also needs to know that I DO HAVE A JOB! Apparently he thinks he knows me, This man also hates everything, everything I like he seems to hate. Job aside, here's my response to -you-... I know -you- well enough, I'd say. -You're- like an open book or rather, -your- life is an open book, based on -your- Wikipedia profile, -your- ANN posts, -your- AOD posts and here of what kind of person -you- are. I see -you- quite clearly. Not everyone in the world is same. We all have different tastes Mr.Cox. -You- need to understand that, that explains why I hate everything -you- like. It's very silly if -you- think everyone is or should be like -you- or so I've observed in the months I've known -you-. It's really ridiculous. :) EDIT:: You decided to edit your statement, oh really? Too bad I have the quote already. :) EDIT:: Sorry for getting this topic off-topic, but I felt Mr.Self-Absorbed Contradiction needed to be called out and on the spot. I am going to be quite honest with you, should you continue to impugne and defame me, I might have to explore some options that are not going to be to your liking. |
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JackCox said: What really grinds my gears are these pious people who complain that ANIME is too expensive. What horseshit, GET OFF Your lazy asses and work for it. I do have a job, and I will say, anime can be quite expensive if you watch as much as some of us. I wouldn't be even close to the anime fan I am today if my only free source of watching it was what comes on TV. I almost never bought anime prior to fansubs, because I was pretty afraid on spending 30 bucks on something I would hate. Fansubs gave me the opportunity that the Japanese people have, in all fairness. A chance to see it free, and buy what I enjoy. Just like they do. |
| If that reply seemed a bit pompous then I'm sorry. But I do indeed have a job and what he said regarding that was a total lie. I do work at a company a few days a week and I am not pampered, I might have said that to him so that I could piss him off because I rally have a grudge against him. |
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JackCox said: I am going to be quite honest with you, should you continue to impugne and defame me, I might have to explore some options that are not going to be to your liking. Oh really? You have my curiousity now... and Seishi, yes. Sumiregawa-kun won the thread, no question. :) Funny that I myself am 60% Dub Fan, 40% Sub Fan but 100% Fan. I can see it being 55-45 or 50-50 by year's end. I'm converting, LOL. Watch out... :3 |
| I think it's pretty useless to attempt such an action as to get the USA to enforce some kind of crackdown on subs. America already has enough crap to deal with piracy within their own borders. And what is the result of that? Nothing. |
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JackCox said: Siing said: Im still scared of a day where fansubs etc are completly elimentated, i just hope that never comes... Seriously I hope it does, because it hurts the industry. I think that Dubs hurt the industry. or at least the actors they hire to do most of the dubs. |
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Sandgolem said: JackCox said: Siing said: Im still scared of a day where fansubs etc are completly elimentated, i just hope that never comes... Seriously I hope it does, because it hurts the industry. I think that Dubs hurt the industry. or at least the actors they hire to do most of the dubs. Well frankly I think your dead wrong on that, seeing as how your a moderator, I will likely hold my tongue back, but if you were not I would have enjoyed giving you a thorough lashing. |
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Sandgolem said: JackCox said: Im still scared of a day where fansubs etc are completly elimentated, i just hope that never comes... Seriously I hope it does, because it hurts the industry. I have to disagree. Without fansubs, most anime will be obscure. Fewer people will know about different titles. Even fewer people will actually buy new anime titles. |
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JackCox said: I think that Dubs hurt the industry. or at least the actors they hire to do most of the dubs. I'm going to have to agree with you on this. I know I would buy much more anime if it was just subbed, because I wouldn't feel like I'm paying for something I wasn't using, and I could download the episodes. The only episodes I've seen legally (on AVD's website or itunes, etc.) were dubbed. |
AegisReborn said: Sandgolem said: JackCox said: Im still scared of a day where fansubs etc are completly elimentated, i just hope that never comes... Seriously I hope it does, because it hurts the industry. I have to disagree. Without fansubs, most anime will be obscure. Fewer people will know about different titles. Even fewer people will actually buy new anime titles. I agree with this person. Without fansubs, a lot of people would've never hear about great anime. And without hearing about these certain anime, they would've never been brought over. The companies do want anime that people want, and not just some completely random stuff thinking it'll sell. If the companies know what we want, it'll mean big bucks for them since we'll be buying it...granted that they do a decent job of promoting and presenting it. |
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| Ho-hum. I know that if it wasn't for illegal downloads I wouldn't even have thought about getting into anime the genre, let alone the series I now like. I really do think that fansubs are great for exposure.. but some people, seriously need to start buying the DVDs if they like the series... |
| NOooooo! I mean oh...interesting. |
 life is a dream ~death is reality |
ender650 said: JackCox said: I think that Dubs hurt the industry. or at least the actors they hire to do most of the dubs. I'm going to have to agree with you on this. I know I would buy much more anime if it was just subbed, because I wouldn't feel like I'm paying for something I wasn't using, and I could download the episodes. The only episodes I've seen legally (on AVD's website or itunes, etc.) were dubbed. The truth is hurting you isn't the truth is if you even bothered to look there is a good deal of dubbed anime that is excellent. Not all of it is bad. |
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JackCox said: The truth is hurting you isn't the truth is if you even bothered to look there is a good deal of dubbed anime that is excellent. Not all of it is bad. Here's my take on that poorly worded sentence. 30% of dubs are good - Amusement Park, Bang Zoom, NewGen(a rare studio), Animaze(another rarely used studio), Ocean are the good ones. They have excelled in quality in the years, while others... haven't. Chevalier is a good example of Amusement Park Media's good dub and well, bad dub... I don't think I've ever listened to one. Bang Zoom has had more hits than misses. NewGen and Animaze are rarely used anymore, but atleast Code Geass is getting an Animaze dub. 30% are bad - Odex, Elastic Media, Blue Water hurt the dub industry - I can't stand any of their dubs and I'm glad Media Blasters is sub-only now, for the most part since they seem to do fine. That's what I've observed atleast. Zegapain (Elastic Media) was godawful. Odex is godawful no matter how you look at it, the only decent dub they've done in Karin, but that still fails in the overall sense. Blue Water is just terrible and disoriented, I avoid those series like the plague. 40% are hit-or-miss, that being FUNimation Studios. I've seen good (Beck, School Rumble and to what I recall, Suzuka) and I've seen bad (Speed Grapher, Trinity Blood, Desert Punk). NYAV also is hit-or-miss, with good dubs such as Giant Robo and bad dubs such as Legend of Himiko. Studiopolis is hit-or-miss as well with good or bad dubs, but for the most part, bad. Naruto and Bleach are good example of bad Studiopolis dubs. Good dubs include the movie Tekkonkinkreet and to a weaker extent, Blood+. If you could rank them, here is what it'd look like - 1. Amusement Park Media 2. Animaze 3. Bang Zoom Entertainment 4. New Generation Pictures 5. Ocean Studios 6. NYAV Post 7. FUNimation Studios 8. Studiopolis 9. Odex 10. Elastic Media Corporation 11. Blue Water |
WhimsOct 27, 2007 2:32 PM
JLS said: I've seen bad (Speed Grapher, Trinity Blood, Desert Punk). lol what desert punk was one of the best dubs i've seen. D: |
JLS said: 30% of dubs are good - Amusement Park, Bang Zoom, NewGen(a rare studio), Animaze(another rarely used studio), Ocean are the good ones. They have excelled in quality in the years, while others... haven't. Chevalier is a good example of Amusement Park Media's good dub and well, bad dub... I don't think I've ever listened to one. Bang Zoom has had more hits than misses. NewGen and Animaze are rarely used anymore, but atleast Code Geass is getting an Animaze dub. 30% are bad - Odex, Elastic Media, Blue Water hurt the dub industry - I can't stand any of their dubs and I'm glad Media Blasters is sub-only now, for the most part since they seem to do fine. That's what I've observed atleast. Zegapain (Elastic Media) was godawful. Odex is godawful no matter how you look at it, the only decent dub they've done in Karin, but that still fails in the overall sense. Blue Water is just terrible and disoriented, I avoid those series like the plague. 40% are hit-or-miss, that being FUNimation Studios. I've seen good (Beck, School Rumble and to what I recall, Suzuka) and I've seen bad (Speed Grapher, Trinity Blood, Desert Punk). NYAV also is hit-or-miss, with good dubs such as Giant Robo and bad dubs such as Legend of Himiko. Studiopolis is hit-or-miss as well with good or bad dubs, but for the most part, bad. Naruto and Bleach are good example of bad Studiopolis dubs. Good dubs include the movie Tekkonkinkreet and to a weaker extent, Blood+. If you could rank them, here is what it'd look like 1. New Generation Pictures 2. Amusement Park Media 3. Animaze 4. Bang Zoom Entertainment 5. FUNimation Studios 6. Ocean Studios 7. NYAV Post 8. Studiopolis 9. PCB 10. Elastic Media Corporation 11. Blue Water 12. Odex Again I'm going to have to completely disagree with you on Speed Grapher's dub, you obviously have never seen the entire series, face it I'm almost certain you had more problems with the Animation, in fact I'm almost certain of it. Funimation has done some really great work and I should point out in fact that as Long as I have known you I know that you hold one of the strongest anti-funimation biases. Desert Punk? Woah, I'm sorry to say this but honestly, you are all alone on that assessment. I can give you trinity Blood, but the problem was not the dub it was the show, the show's plot was awful and it should have been better. As for Studiopolis despite what people like to throw at Naruto and Bleach they have been dubbed as close as they could to the original and I'm tired of people picking on these two. I'm going to add PCB to the list because they do a good deal of dubbing too. Unfortunately they get a lot of really bad shows (MAR, Disgaea, .Hack//Sign), they are much better at Game Dubbing in my opinion. Studiopolis is okay, it isn't perfect but it beats the hell out of the other 4. New Gen almost definitely deserves Number one, almost every show they have done has been well dubbed even if the show was complete trash, I fail to see how someone like you can honestly doubt that Hellsing Ultimate was not the best dub to ever come out of them, add Ergo Proxy, R.O.D. the TV, Texhnolyze, Haibane Renmei and Paranoia Agent and they are easily number one. I will agree with Amusement Park Media/ADV Studios/Industrial Smoke and Mirrors/Monster Island, but to a lesser degree there have been some really bad dubs that came out of that studio (see This Ugly yet beautiful world and Orphen). Animaze gets #3 only because they haven't gotten as much work. However, in my Opinion It's almost close to number 2, Every show they've done has been considered unbelievably well dubbed (GITS, Outlaw Star, Cowboy Bebop, Wolf's Rain) it may be better then APM. Bang Zoom is at Number 4, they are somewhat hit and miss. As for Funimation, there is a rule of thumb to follow and I really have to be careful how I state this. The best dubs that Funimation does are whenever Mike McFarland or Christopher Bevins is directing, Tyler Walker who is another director can be hit (Hell Girl, Basilisk) or Miss (Black Cat, Possibly Ragnarok though we'll have to see, I don't know if it'll be good). |
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JackCox said: New Gen almost definitely deserves Number one, almost every show they have done has been well dubbed even if the show was complete trash, I fail to see how someone like you can honestly doubt that Hellsing Ultimate was not the best dub to ever come out of them, add Ergo Proxy, R.O.D. the TV, Texhnolyze, Haibane Renmei and Paranoia Agent and they are easily number one. I dislike Hellsing Ultimate intensely, per why I dropped it. It was pretty annoying. I find it extremely overrated. The dub is okay, I wouldn't say its the best dub ever though. My personal favorite from New Generation is Gun Sword. It's one, if not, the best dub I've heard in quite some time, rivaling Chevalier. Paranoia Agent was alright. Haibane Renmei was pretty good. Ergo Proxy was another dub that was pretty good, but not a masterpiece or gold. I haven't seen Texhnolyze, ROD TV and I'm not interested in watching them since I have more important things to watch. JackCox said: Again I'm going to have to completely disagree with you on Speed Grapher's dub, you obviously have never seen the entire series, face it I'm almost certain you had more problems with the Animation, in fact I'm almost certain of it. Funimation has done some really great work and I should point out in fact that as Long as I have known you I know that you hold one of the strongest anti-funimation biases. Desert Punk? Woah, I'm sorry to say this but honestly, you are all alone on that assessment. I can give you trinity Blood, but the problem was not the dub it was the show, the show's plot was awful and it should have been better. I've seen the first 4 episodes of Speed Grapher and Desert Punk and have no intention of wasting my money on it. That's exactly what'll happen - a waste. Trinity Blood had a bad dub and was a terrible series. A double whammy of fail. JackCox said: I will agree with Amusement Park Media/ADV Studios/Industrial Smoke and Mirrors/Monster Island, but to a lesser degree there have been some really bad dubs that came out of that studio (see This Ugly yet beautiful world and Orphen). I thought Steven Foster was your favorite director or something like that. Wow, I love how you contradict yourself. I didn't find This Ugly Yet Beautiful World's dub bad. The series itself was bad - really bad. Orphen was terrible, like 90% of game-to-anime adaptions (Xenosaga, FFU are good examples). JackCox said: Bang Zoom is at Number 4, they are somewhat hit and miss. Examples of hits and misses? JackCox said: The best dubs that Funimation does are whenever Mike McFarland or Christopher Bevins is directing, Tyler Walker who is another director can be hit (Hell Girl, Basilisk) or Miss (Black Cat, Possibly Ragnarok though we'll have to see, I don't know if it'll be good). I've begun to prefer Brina Palencia and Justin Cook, when they direct a series, I'm interested a little more. Anybody else, not interested really. Also, I'll proudly admit it - I am Anti-FUNimation. My boycott is over, but I'm still very strongly Anti-FUNimation. :) |
WhimsOct 27, 2007 6:23 PM
JLS said: JackCox said: New Gen almost definitely deserves Number one, almost every show they have done has been well dubbed even if the show was complete trash, I fail to see how someone like you can honestly doubt that Hellsing Ultimate was not the best dub to ever come out of them, add Ergo Proxy, R.O.D. the TV, Texhnolyze, Haibane Renmei and Paranoia Agent and they are easily number one. I dislike Hellsing Ultimate intensely, per why I dropped it. It was pretty annoying. I find it extremely overrated. The dub is okay, I wouldn't say its the best dub ever though. My personal favorite from New Generation is Gun Sword. It's one, if not, the best dub I've heard in quite some time, rivaling Chevalier. Paranoia Agent was alright. Haibane Renmei was pretty good. Ergo Proxy was another dub that was pretty good, but not a masterpiece or gold. I haven't seen Texhnolyze, ROD TV and I'm not interested in watching them since I have more important things to watch. JackCox said: Again I'm going to have to completely disagree with you on Speed Grapher's dub, you obviously have never seen the entire series, face it I'm almost certain you had more problems with the Animation, in fact I'm almost certain of it. Funimation has done some really great work and I should point out in fact that as Long as I have known you I know that you hold one of the strongest anti-funimation biases. Desert Punk? Woah, I'm sorry to say this but honestly, you are all alone on that assessment. I can give you trinity Blood, but the problem was not the dub it was the show, the show's plot was awful and it should have been better. I've seen the first 4 episodes of Speed Grapher and Desert Punk and have no intention of wasting my money on it. That's exactly what'll happen - a waste. Trinity Blood had a bad dub and was a terrible series. A double whammy of fail. JackCox said: I will agree with Amusement Park Media/ADV Studios/Industrial Smoke and Mirrors/Monster Island, but to a lesser degree there have been some really bad dubs that came out of that studio (see This Ugly yet beautiful world and Orphen). I thought Steven Foster was your favorite director or something like that. Wow, I love how you contradict yourself. I didn't find This Ugly Yet Beautiful World's dub bad. The series itself was bad - really bad. Orphen was terrible, like 90% of game-to-anime adaptions (Xenosaga, FFU are good examples). JackCox said: Bang Zoom is at Number 4, they are somewhat hit and miss. Examples of hits and misses? JackCox said: The best dubs that Funimation does are whenever Mike McFarland or Christopher Bevins is directing, Tyler Walker who is another director can be hit (Hell Girl, Basilisk) or Miss (Black Cat, Possibly Ragnarok though we'll have to see, I don't know if it'll be good). I've begun to prefer Brina Palencia and Justin Cook, when they direct a series, I'm interested a little more. Anybody else, not interested really. Also, I'll proudly admit it - I am Anti-FUNimation. My boycott is over, but I'm still very strongly Anti-FUNimation. :) Foster is my favorite director, however even some people have to admit he has made a few stinkers, Orphen and This Ugly Yet Beautiful World have been almost universally panned interms of the dub, I believe when Foster did Orphen the anime-fan community was not as vocal as it is now and thus Orphen had a lot of it's lines re-written. Anime on DVD dub fan community has almost universally said the TUYBW dub was awful. I saw one-episode of it and have got to say it wasn't the dub that was the problem it was the show. The truth is Foster's gotten some really bad shows. But aside from that almost everything else he's done is fantastic (Red Garden, Chevalier, Pani Poni Dash, Gilgamesh and of Course Ghost Stories) |
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| Disliking Hellsing Ultimate, welcome to the entire 0.000000001% of the population of which you are all alone. |
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JackCox said: Disliking Hellsing Ultimate, welcome to the entire 0.000000001% of the population of which you are all alone. Well, I guess I'm glad to be unique and different from everyone else. If everyone was equal, then it would be a dull, dull world. Now wouldn't it? |
JackCox said: The truth is hurting you isn't the truth is if you even bothered to look there is a good deal of dubbed anime that is excellent. Not all of it is bad. (feel free to lash all you like my being a mod should mean nothing) I feel that to enjoy the anime to the fullest requires subtitles. For one like most forgien films, I enjoy watching them in the orginal language with subtitles not dubs. For most english dubs words are added (the famous Naruto: Believe it) or sentence controted to fit the scenes. While some Dubs may be decent (Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, Fruits Basket about the only ones I like) alot of them more often then not, do not really compare acting wise to their Japanese Counterparts. And dont get me started on animes content being changed to be more "kid friendly" like One Piece for instance. (major plot lines changed, blood, cigerettes, and any deaths edited out of the anime) In my opinion most dubs ( Most mind you not all) change, edit, or butcher the animes they are trying to translate. This all may be an issue of personal taste but I know I would buy alot more anime from Wal-Mart if it was subbed rather then dubbed. |
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| Debating the ever delicate balance of fansubs, I see. Fansubs are a bit of mixed baggage. On the one hand, Fansubs increase awareness and circulation of Anime. Per example, the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya would be no where near as insanely popular and well known as it currently stands if not for fansubbing, and its success as a commercial property relies heavily on that fact. Few people like blind purchases, and its subsequent profitability in the American market is because people knew what they were buying and wanted it. FullMetal Alchemist, back when it premiered, was one of the hottest downloads, making it ripe for licensing. Would American distributors have been as likely to snatch it up so quickly otherwise? That's arguable. Similarly, these actions can also prove a market where the Industry might have a blind spot. Ouran Host Club gained prominence across seas exclusively by the Internet, and I have my doubts as to whether it might have been noticed by American licensing, regardless of VIZ's efforts to translating the Manga. After all, we have Naoki Urasawa's Monster on our bookshelves but not on our television screens. On the other side, fansubbing will always attract a number of pirates, leechers, and profiteers, people content to simply download all their Anime, regardless of its legal copyright status in the United States, thus hurting sales and future availability when the title isn't as commercially successful as the market had hoped. Anime is still technically something of a "Niche' interest" in the United States, and as such licensing titles can be a risky business if the income isn't high. And some will even rip off subs to sell bootleg DVDs, downgrading the practice to outright piracy of copyright materials. There is no excuse or justification for that. It hurts the market and the fans. Whether fansubs are ultimately a "Good" or a "Bad" thing rests on the shoulders of the viewers, and whether they chose to be responsible and supportive to the industry or not. The Industry recognizes the effects of subs, and I believe allows them to exist on a limited basis, backed up by cease and desist letters sent to assorted subbing groups as opposed to outright lawsuits. And touring Anime Expo 2007, the Hellsing Ultimate panel directed fans to where they could catch the first three episodes of the OVA shown publically. Fansubbed. That says something. All that said, back to Japan. Anime is not a global market in the sense that each country must individual purchase the rights to any given series for distribution and profit in their own country. Because of this, Japan makes no direct profit off the sales of Anime in any other country, aside from company licensing fees. Really, Japan couldn't care less about fansubs floating around America, Europe, etc. The issue in this thread is then most likely Japanese pirates downloading the RAWs and subs in place of buying actual DVDs. I could buy the Baccano! box set, or I could simply pirate the RAW torrents shared online for the purposes of subs. If I took a popular American show, say House, or Monk, and uploaded whole episodes to YouTube, the legality of the situation isn't so much concerned with the fact that Japanese people can watch American shows for free online as much as Americans can watch American shows for free online. And as for the dub vs. sub argument raging, theres a reason DVDs come with both options people. You "would buy a lot more Anime from Wal-Mart if it was subbed rather then dubbed?" It IS subbed. Check your language settings before pressing play, people. Some of us prefer dubs, others prefer subs; the industry graciously caters to both parties. |
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| I don't think getting rid of fansubs would do the American industry any favors. I also am skeptical that it's really hurting the Japanese industry... Mostly because Americans aren't buying the Japanese product, but the licensed American product - and really, I think the Japanese companies might have a harder time enticing American companies to license their stuff if not for the fanbase a fansub could generate. To be honest though, I don't care at all about the American industry. They're more dub oriented - for example, free episodes shown online to drum up interest are always dubs. I have zero interest in dubs, and zero interest in anime becoming bigger or more mainstream in America. Because the only way that could happen would be for the very nature of anime - as a product of Japanese culture - to be changed to suite American popular tastes - basically, a perversion of its nature. And I'm unclear on one point - is it illegal to have a subtitled anime for download when the show hasn't been licensed in America (and thus has no legal status in America)? |
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| A PROPOSAL: ANIME STEAM What Steam is: A digital distribution network for PC games. You either buy a steam game on a disc from a physical shop, and it installs steam when you install the game from the disc, or you download steam free first and install it, then use its built-in shop to buy the game from the online Steam shop and download it, bypassing discs. This system is functioning, popular and very widely used today. So what does this have to do with anime? Steam updates your games automatically, and functions as an exclusive portal for playing these games, protecting against piracy. Also, when you preorder a game, it pre-loads it. On release day, it unlocks it and you can play the game the moment it's available. Another advantage of the Steam model: you can delete and uninstall anything you like, and redownload it for free - when you buy a Steam game, you buy the right of access to it, rather than the specific download. SO, WHAT IF Anime studios and distributors and the fansubbing community clubbed together and offered really cheap subbed anime episodes in a similar fashion? Studios and Japanese publishers could pay fansubbers a modest amount for their work, in return for exclusivity regarding distribution of the download. Once a show was licensed for release in a particular country, it would become unavailable to AnimeSteam users in that country, including the copies already downloaded, unless users bought the series. Video files would only be usable through AnimeSteam, and be watermarked so that anyone who adapted them to work outside AnimeSteam would be clearly breaking the rules. This could be buying the DVD, in which case each DVD would include a code similar to the CD keys that come with games, allowing you access to the steam version of the series. Alternatively, you could buy the series (that is to say, buy the right of access to the series from AnimeSteam) directly from the service's shop. However, the money you spent on episodes would be deducted from buying the digital download version, and since this would not involve packaging, it would be a bit cheaper than DVD anyway. Bandwidth would be saved by using a modified version of bittorrent for downloads (similar to the patch util for World of Warcraft, except done better). WHY THIS IS A GOOD IDEA -This would safeguard people's intellectual property rights. -Legitimises downloading at minimal cost to individuals. -By involving the fansubbing community, you gain experienced and respected translators capable of translating an episode fast, and at minimal cost. -By charging a minimal fee ($0.50 per episode maybe) you cover your running costs such as keeping the network up and running. -people such as the majority of us here could keep downloading anime, but would be supporting its creators even more than we do when we buy DVDs. -keeping episodes cheap makes it really easy to try new things -ability to cut out the whole distribution chain lowers costs and maximises profits for the creators. -western distribution firms still profit by supplying the dubbed versions of licensed anime, and continue to put out DVD releases for those who prefer to own a physical object. -Totally undercuts bootleggers while staying fully legitimate. -sets out a distinct "right way" to download anime - no more grey areas. -While the idea of AnimeSteam doesn't in any way stop existing distribution channels, look at how much iTunes has become accepted vs. illegal music DLs. iTunes, in the general public eye, is "the right way to get music off the internet"; the same could happen here for anime. -while such systems are always exploited by a few people, the nature of this network is such that it can always be updated and the updates automatically applied to everyone. This would also include updates to codecs etc. -Steam is an extremely effective way to combat piracy; it's possible to work round it but not easy, unlike most non-steam games. -Steam is very simple to use and contains many great features - a straightforward shop interface, an easy way to launch your games for basics, and recently it has added a community aspect, including the ability to send instant messages to friends while in-game (like Xbox Live). WHAT IS REQUIRED -a network of servers across the world. However, if this is going to be based on bittorrent or a similar peer-to-peer distributed network, the server infrastructure needn't be as big as Steam currently is. -a video format that is unique to AnimeSteam and can be watermarked. -flexibility and openness to new ideas from the industry. -initial outlay of money, obviously. |
url_elf said: And I'm unclear on one point - is it illegal to have a subtitled anime for download when the show hasn't been licensed in America (and thus has no legal status in America)? Yes, the reproduction of the anime is clearly in violation of Article 9 of the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, of which both the US, Japan, and most of the world are signatories. Furthermore, fansubbers are violating Article 8 of the treaty by making unauthorized translations. US copyright code is written to support this treaty, so it does have legal status here. Berne Convention Article 8 Berne Convention Article 9 |
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JLS said: JackCox said: Disliking Hellsing Ultimate, welcome to the entire 0.000000001% of the population of which you are all alone. Well, I guess I'm glad to be unique and different from everyone else. If everyone was equal, then it would be a dull, dull world. Now wouldn't it? That's not the problem, people can be different, but your just on the wrong side of this, there are certain animes I wouldn't care if you were on the bad side, but this your just plain wrong on. |
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JackCox said: JLS said: JackCox said: Disliking Hellsing Ultimate, welcome to the entire 0.000000001% of the population of which you are all alone. Well, I guess I'm glad to be unique and different from everyone else. If everyone was equal, then it would be a dull, dull world. Now wouldn't it? That's not the problem, people can be different, but your just on the wrong side of this, there are certain animes I wouldn't care if you were on the bad side, but this your just plain wrong on. How are opinions wrong? Anybody else, since when were opinions wrong? |
| Actually, for the last few months, I've been really worried about CrunchyRoll... It has LOADS of anime there which I would love to watch, but it is illegal, and I'm kinda scared the site might get discovered... =( |
JLS said: How are opinions wrong? Anybody else, since when were opinions wrong? Blue Gender > Gankutsuou |
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Iri said: url_elf said: And I'm unclear on one point - is it illegal to have a subtitled anime for download when the show hasn't been licensed in America (and thus has no legal status in America)? Yes, the reproduction of the anime is clearly in violation of Article 9 of the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, of which both the US, Japan, and most of the world are signatories. Furthermore, fansubbers are violating Article 8 of the treaty by making unauthorized translations. US copyright code is written to support this treaty, so it does have legal status here. Berne Convention Article 8 Berne Convention Article 9 Good to know, thanks! |
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| OHHH no could this be the end of BitTorrent downloads. IF so i may die from boredom. DVD's are not that cheap :S |
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Kiriyuu said: Wouldn't that need to ALL fansubs simply close? Even with something like that... i bet that a lot of ppl still would download it for free from fansubs, if available. I don't like the "watermark" part too, lol If this happened, it would be entirely up to individual fansubber groups whether or not they chose to get paid and have their releases endorsed by the company, or continue distributing for free. However, if this were to happen, this would basically end the current 'legal grey area' that most fansubs operate in; if you were still distributing or downloading anime for free when a system like AnimeSteam existed, you'd be much more likely to be sued as you'd be much more obviously breaking the law, especially if it were available on AnimeSteam for such a small amount. The main point of this idea is to create a way for anime fans everywhere to cheaply and easily enjoy legal anime; however, this requires it to be possible to make a clear distinction between what is legal and is not. Watermarked downloads would be necessary to stop widespread occurence of people ripping them into other formats and distributing them further. Perhaps makers of portable media devices might make their devices compatible with AnimeSteam, or some sort of limited copying might be built into AnimeSteam to allow this. Kiriyuu said: What if fansubs only did the subs itself, and you needed to buy the episodes? (For download, with good prices, since we would just download it in japanese) Would that be legal? :P Imagine having a international website, with paid downloads of new and unlicensed animes, with high-speed downloads... imo, it could work. "ATunes" LOL That's what I'm saying. Japanese Anime companies can pay fansubbers to translate new anime, and release it (in Japanese with subs only) for paid download at a very low price, my example being $0.50. If the original licensees give their blessings to the service, I don't see why it'd not be legal. An illustrative example of how AnimeSteam would work: -Black Lagoon ep. 1 airs in Japan on Monday. -Geneon (?) pays a fansub group to quickly sub it and provides a high-quality raw file. They could even pay multiple groups to sub in multiple languages. -The fansubbed episode is released for DL worldwide via AnimeSteam for $0.50 on Thursday. -Each Monday, Black Lagoon airs on Japanese TV. Each Thursday, the new fansubbed ep. is released for DL. -Once the whole 12 episodes are out, they remain available, for $0.50 each or $6 for the lot. -ADV license it in the US. From this point on, it cannot be purchased in the US, but if you've already bought it, you can still watch it. Customers outside the US can still buy the fansubs. -ADV release the series. From this point, AnimeSteam stops US customers from watching whatever episodes are released, even if you already own the fansubs, unless you either buy the right to own the DL, or you buy the DVD. Customers in other countries can still buy the fansubs if the series is not licensed in their countries. -The Licensed DL and the DVD will both include dubs into other languages and extras that the fansub DL did not. -Buying the licensed DL will be somewhat cheaper than the DVD, and if you already bought the fansub releases, you get the price you already paid knocked off the licensed DL too. -If you buy the DVD you get a code included that entitles you to watch the licensed DL version too via AnimeSteam. -Once you buy the licensed DL or enter the DVD code, you can download, watch and delete the episodes you own as many times as you like. -Japanese customers can buy raws for the same price as fansubs until the domestic DVD release. -Once DVDs are released in Japan, Japanese customers must buy the Jaoanese licenced DL or DVD. Otherwise the same rules apply. EDITS: for clarity |
YourMessageHereNov 3, 2007 1:34 PM
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