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Suisei no Gargantia Episode 2 Discussion

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Apr 11, 2013 1:22 PM
#301
symbv

Offline
Sep 2012
10121
AnimageNeby said:
symbv, this is simply not correct. I mean: it's quite possible that you answered different posts of me in your post, but the part about what I thought about things, including the conclusion, which you answered paragraph-by-paragraph was ALL contained in ONE post of mine. Maybe the first, second of third in your count above, but the point being; the conclusion was set in the same post as the paragraph(s) where you were saying the same thing as I did in my conclusion, and then commenting on my conclusion.
OK, if we want to break down even more, how about this?

I read your first post, wrote something on my reply post (there is always just one reply post)
I read your second post, wrote something more in that same reply post
I read your third post, I forgot whether I wrote anything, probably not
I read the first part of your last post, wrote something
I read the another part of your last post, wrote something more
etc
I read the last part of your last post, which had your conclusion, and I wrote the light-hearted comment
I did not make changes to things I had already written and I submitted the post

Now credible? Although I am not quite sure this is really the case, but I can see the possibility: As your post is often long, so I could have broken down in parts which I thought could be replied separately. And so in this case I could have missed your conclusion when I started to write reply to your last post.

AnimageNeby said:

Yeah...'fellow humans' would be pretty good too. "Fellow humans. Join Alliance." sounds ok.
Yeah, this has become my preferred translation now.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
Apr 11, 2013 1:49 PM
#302
AnimageNeby
Offline
Feb 2013
623
symbv said:
alduren said:
You bring up old translation I already changed in response to your earlier replies.
And keep on repeating old stuff to have anything to find wrong at all.
And keep on bringing it up post after post...
Bear in mind that I started to bring it up when you said "you are just changing words to make your own unique translation, at the cost of making it too far from what's being said. There is really no sense in the change for the first part of the sentence, you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example." and I kept bringing up when you did not explain why you said I left out stuff when I just translated the same part of speech you made in the first translation.


Well, it could be he automatically assumed you were referring to his latest translation, and that's why he brought it up.

In any case, it's for all persons involved clear by *now*, it's not about his old one, I presume? You can both agree not to dwell on the old one, but reference to the latest one, there should be no problem anymore in regard to this issue.


alduren said:

It's rude, and not relevant to bring up things that I have already admitted are worse than than the translation I replied back to you later.
As if you were not rude when you said "you are just changing words to make your own unique translation, at the cost of making it too far from what's being said. There is really no sense in the change for the first part of the sentence, you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example." which is BEFORE I brought up your first translation.


Ok, you were both being rude. Sort of. Maybe.

But, symbv, aren't you a tad too sensitive? What you quote as him saying there, isn't all that rude. Saying that he thinks you have changed it too much at the cost of making it too far from what's being said, isn't rude on itself, even if you think he's wrong and it ain't changed much or doesn't deviate much from what was said. It's simply a difference of opinion that's being expressed, but that doesn't make it rude. And as for 'leave out'-part: if he was assuming everyone had his latest translation in mind, it would be correct that he pointed that omission out. It doesn't mean he considered his own omission of it in his first translation right, or that he was hypocritical about it.

In fact, as I've understood it, he finds his own first translation in this respect bad and even worse too. So it makes sense that he would point your omission out. seen in that context, it ain't all that rude neither.

As I said: maybe you guys got of the wrong foot here.


alduren said:

Kikunra is not a way of addressing a 2nd person with respect.
It's multiple people addressing and you are referring to them as your lower or at the most equals, it's not polite.
Using only Kikun is addressing a 2nd person, and still not polite or any level of respect.
Oh really? I took up one dictionary and it said
き‐くん【貴君】［代］二人称の人代名詞。男性が、手紙などで、対等または目下の男性に対し、軽い敬意を込めて用いる。
It is to address 2nd-person pronoun, and the "ra" would mean it is 2nd-person plural pronoun. And there is a slight politeness in the word.

And in another dictionary 三省堂 大辞林 it said
二人称。男性が主に手紙や文書などで同輩程度の者に対して敬意をもって用いる語。

Again there is 敬意 which means respect.


Well, I can't comment on that, because my knowledge of Japanese just ain't good enough. As far as I can tell, I think symbv might have a point here, Alduren. But I don't know enough to be sure, let alone the finer nuances of it, in Japanese. Also, there is always a potential slight difference between 'dictionary-used' language, and actual 'talking-language'.

If you guys will keep arguing about these technical clarifications, and both think the other is wrong, I can always ask a third person? I know someone who reads/talks fluently Japanese, and is good in English as well. I could ask her, if you guys want?


alduren said:

What I meant was that the use of multiple addressing should be included in the full sentence. I have never intended the word comrades to be kikunra. I meant that in the full english sentence that, the flow of multiple people being addressed at that time is present.
But the meaning of "comrades" is not really there in the words spoken by Chamber, not even quite hinted.


Hmmm... Well, it is true that the English word of 'comrades' has a connotation of people who share the same ideology (and not as much race), which doesn't really fit the context in the anime, since he isn't talking about shared beliefs or ideology, but clearly wanted to stress the mutual bond of being from the same race.

I thought "Fellow humans." was quite good too, though. If the literal meaning of comrades divert too much (not that I think it's all that drastically different as to completely lose its meaning), I would go for that, then.


alduren said:

You are rude, and you refuse to admit anything in your translation can be an error, to the point that you ignore my current translation and go for attacking the old one multiple times.
Well, you were the first to be rude and sounded superior, and when the person fought back you called that person rude?

As for "attacking the old one multiple times", you were the one who said that you still preferred the old translation, even after I accepted that Brethren is fine (which is why I did not touch your current translation any more). Since I wrote my very first post in response of your using "comrades" I found it necessary to explain why I made my first post in the first place. I don't see how this would constitute "attacks".

alduren said:
But now you should know that he chamber is addressing multiple people with kikunra.
Did I ever say otherwise? I wonder why you would think that I do not see Chamber is addressing multiple people.

alduren said:
I asked on irc and 2 japanese people told me that human brethren is better, and that compatriot is not what is being said, but tbh I can't vouch for if they are good at this or not, just 2x random people. I don't know what else to confirm it by, I'm fairly sure now that it's not the word intended.
Again I never said Brethren is not good. In fact I fully accept it. And as I said, I don't mind people saying "Compatriot" sounds awkward, but I would not accept a view that 同胞 cannot be translated to Compatriot.

alduren said:

And that the word means something else from brethren in english, there is no doubt about that.
Well, brethren has a sense of brotherhood in it so as an appeal for the same origin I can see it is fine (although it also carries a subtle connotation of relating to religion). Compatriot carries a sense of common place of origin so it is fine too (although it also carries a connotation of relating to country). Of course they are not the same, but it does not mean that 同胞 can only be translated to brethren but not compatriot, or the other way round.


Sigh. You're both rude, and what's more, becoming ruder with each post, almost!

But anyway...'brethern' I like a bit less, since, as I pointed out, and you now agree, it has a slight religious connotation to it. It's often used to refer to people of a sect, religion, secluded esoteric group. 'Compatriot human race' may technically be correct, but sounds awkward.

I would rather go for the 'Fellow humans', then. Alduren; is there something wrong with this particular translation?

Btw, what did you think of my suggestions and constructive criticism on your translation?

And try to remain civil, you both! ;-)
AnimageNebyApr 11, 2013 1:59 PM
Apr 11, 2013 1:51 PM
#303
alduren
Offline
Apr 2013
23
symbv said:
alduren said:
You bring up old translation I already changed in response to your earlier replies.
And keep on repeating old stuff to have anything to find wrong at all.
And keep on bringing it up post after post...
Bear in mind that I started to bring it up when you said "you are just changing words to make your own unique translation, at the cost of making it too far from what's being said. There is really no sense in the change for the first part of the sentence, you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example." and I kept bringing up when you did not explain why you said I left out stuff when I just translated the same part of speech you made in the first translation.

alduren said:

It's rude, and not relevant to bring up things that I have already admitted are worse than than the translation I replied back to you later.
As if you were not rude when you said "you are just changing words to make your own unique translation, at the cost of making it too far from what's being said. There is really no sense in the change for the first part of the sentence, you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example." which is BEFORE I brought up your first translation.

alduren said:

Kikunra is not a way of addressing a 2nd person with respect.
It's multiple people addressing and you are referring to them as your lower or at the most equals, it's not polite.
Using only Kikun is addressing a 2nd person, and still not polite or any level of respect.
Oh really? I took up one dictionary and it said
き‐くん【貴君】［代］二人称の人代名詞。男性が、手紙などで、対等または目下の男性に対し、軽い敬意を込めて用いる。
It is to address 2nd-person pronoun, and the "ra" would mean it is 2nd-person plural pronoun. And there is a slight politeness in the word.

And in another dictionary 三省堂 大辞林 it said
二人称。男性が主に手紙や文書などで同輩程度の者に対して敬意をもって用いる語。

Again there is 敬意 which means respect.

alduren said:

What I meant was that the use of multiple addressing should be included in the full sentence. I have never intended the word comrades to be kikunra. I meant that in the full english sentence that, the flow of multiple people being addressed at that time is present.
But the meaning of "comrades" is not really there in the words spoken by Chamber, not even quite hinted.

alduren said:

You are rude, and you refuse to admit anything in your translation can be an error, to the point that you ignore my current translation and go for attacking the old one multiple times.
Well, you were the first to be rude and sounded superior, and when the person fought back you called that person rude?

As for "attacking the old one multiple times", you were the one who said that you still preferred the old translation, even after I accepted that Brethren is fine (which is why I did not touch your current translation any more). Since I wrote my very first post in response of your using "comrades" I found it necessary to explain why I made my first post in the first place. I don't see how this would constitute "attacks".

alduren said:
But now you should know that he chamber is addressing multiple people with kikunra.
Did I ever say otherwise? I wonder why you would think that I do not see Chamber is addressing multiple people.

alduren said:
I asked on irc and 2 japanese people told me that human brethren is better, and that compatriot is not what is being said, but tbh I can't vouch for if they are good at this or not, just 2x random people. I don't know what else to confirm it by, I'm fairly sure now that it's not the word intended.
Again I never said Brethren is not good. In fact I fully accept it. And as I said, I don't mind people saying "Compatriot" sounds awkward, but I would not accept a view that 同胞 cannot be translated to Compatriot.

alduren said:

And that the word means something else from brethren in english, there is no doubt about that.
Well, brethren has a sense of brotherhood in it so as an appeal for the same origin I can see it is fine (although it also carries a subtle connotation of relating to religion). Compatriot carries a sense of common place of origin so it is fine too (although it also carries a connotation of relating to country). Of course they are not the same, but it does not mean that 同胞 can only be translated to brethren but not compatriot, or the other way round.


K, I will just ask someone with more knowledge about this to get answers, I don't trust your dictionary at all. The people in irc says that it's not with respect at all, it's mainly used in writing and is what their boss would write to them.+"It is towards many."

But I will have to get a 2nd opinion from someone I trust better to know what he's talking about before I confirm that.

And tbh you are the rude person, I changed multiple times and adapted my translation to something else in response to your feedback. You are the one stuck and getting up old stuff to get on peoples nerves when I talked some translation with you.

I'm always willing to admit if something else is better, I have made changes.
Out of like 15 tips I get, yours is the only one who sounded strange and off from what I had assumed was the translation. It had no flow of english, it didn't address the crowd like I assumed the sentence did, compatriot is forever going to be something I only say about co-workers or people of the same country, and that's not what chamber could have said, by the way, what did the dictionary say about that? I don't have one at home for english, just japanese-swedish, swedish-japanese.

Let's be clear, I was not rude or superior, I just changed my own translation since I was in error, due to your feedback. And in turn I replied my feelings about your translation. And in no ill tone at all. Can't a guy say that he feels your translation is not accurate without you taking it as an insult?

If you can't take that, maybe you should stop replying to people and show them your translations.
I was never rude to you, I offered what I considered normal feedback. Your use of compatriot was strange, it's not common or flowing at all in the context for english. I assumed you just wanted to change out words so they became your own translation at the cost of losing some meaning, and I told you that.

It's not looking down on you, it's a normal discussion about translation. Maybe just stop talking about stuff you get easy offended by, or please try to learn to not take everything like it has emotions in it, when it comes to translation.

I was only offended and in turn got a bit of a bad manner when you bring up the old stuff, everything prior to that is just plain normal talk about translation from my part. It's just natural I talk some translation when you offer it, sorry I didn't feel your translation was the best, but no need to feel I looked down.
Apr 11, 2013 1:58 PM
#304
alduren
Offline
Apr 2013
23
AnimageNeby, yes please ask your friend.
We need some 3rd eyes here reliable.
Ask about the whole sentence :p
Apr 11, 2013 2:03 PM
#305
Takuan_Soho
Offline
Oct 2012
6648
To end this debate, in my capacity as the only native English speaker here (not that this gives me any special knowledge mind ya) I proclaim that we go with "fellow human".

It would sound odd, since it is Chamber saying it, this would support the boat people's belief that there is another human in Chamber, and it would be ironic in that it is Chamber who is speaking it.

It also would make sense for Ledo to say it, in that all humans in space know there are aliens, and what this means, it would tie into the hypnotic training Ledo received at the start of the episode, and it would sound a bit strange to the ship people because they wouldn't understand that there are such things as aliens, so it covers ALL the bases.
Apr 11, 2013 2:04 PM
#306
AnimageNeby
Offline
Feb 2013
623
alduren said:
AnimageNeby, yes please ask your friend.
We need some 3rd eyes here reliable.
Ask about the whole sentence :p


ok, but I don't know how fast she will respond. It's pretty late here. ;-)

Takuan_Soho said:
To end this debate, in my capacity as the only native English speaker here (not that this gives me any special knowledge mind ya) I proclaim that we go with "fellow human".

It would sound odd, since it is Chamber saying it, this would support the boat people's belief that there is another human in Chamber, and it would be ironic in that it is Chamber who is speaking it.

It also would make sense for Ledo to say it, in that all humans in space know there are aliens, and what this means, it would tie into the hypnotic training Ledo received at the start of the episode, and it would sound a bit strange to the ship people because they wouldn't understand that there are such things as aliens, so it covers ALL the bases.


WOW! I had the same capacity as the only native English speaker here!

;-)

:-p

(PS.this was false humility :-) )
AnimageNebyApr 11, 2013 2:09 PM
Apr 11, 2013 2:09 PM
#307
alduren
Offline
Apr 2013
23
Ok, I had a talk with one person with not so good english living in japan, kikun is mainly used by those superior to write to those below them while being polite. And it has a negative tone for that reason, like you are talking down to them and that there is no room for them to be above at all.

It's not about what is said, but the way it's said. It's polite, but the way it's said is more towards insulting. But it's not always insulting either, it depends on what's being said.

Tbh, i'm feeling really happy atm, i'm learning new things.
In our case, maybe that's really why they became upset?
Chamber was talking like he's in charge, saying he wanted them to participate/join the alliance = automatic order due to him being the boss in the conversation.
Apr 11, 2013 2:20 PM
#308
alduren
Offline
Apr 2013
23
@takuan_soho
Oh ok, sounds different from what I just got explained.
Does the sentence itself hold much meaning towards how much the word gives respect or not?

Like, if your government used it and demanded you move out for example. Can it be used in a sense that, We are sure you understand this is happening.
As in, they are acting bad but giving respect that he is smart and understands this. Would it change the meaning to polite, but with a bit mocking tone in some way?
Apr 11, 2013 2:21 PM
#309
symbv

Offline
Sep 2012
10121
alduren said:
K, I will just ask someone with more knowledge about this to get answers, I don't trust your dictionary at all. The people in irc says that it's not with respect at all, it's mainly used in writing and is what their boss would write to them.+"It is towards many."
Did I ever say it is not towards many? How many times do I have to repeat that?? And now you don't even trust dictionaries, huh? OK, the word Kikun is mainly used in writing, which my two dictionaries also mention. As for whether it is with respect, it depends on how you use it. Because it is a Polite Word, if used by a senior person towards someone who is clearly lower rank, then the mismatching politeness becomes roughness. This is why many people only see this word used in address that carries no respect (like from your boss). However, on an equal level and with distance (like the situation Chamber and the ship crew found themselves in) it is indeed used as a 2nd person pronoun with slight respect.

This is what one Japanese wrote about the usage: 「貴君」と相手を呼ぶ場合は、年下の相手ではなく、年長か同年齢か、または知識的な意味で対等関係にある相手に対しわたしは使います。

alduren said:

And tbh you are the rude person, I changed multiple times and adapted my translation to something else in response to your feedback. You are the one stuck and getting up old stuff to get on peoples nerves when I talked some translation with you.
You changed only once, not multiple times. And as soon as you made that single change, you started to act rude and superior. And as I said, you failed to explain why you wrote "you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example." which is why I brought up your first translation. And you even later said you prefer your first translation after all and then proceeded to ask me not to mention about that any more. Who is rude?


alduren said:
It had no flow of english, it didn't address the crowd like I assumed the sentence did, compatriot is forever going to be something I only say about co-workers or people of the same country, and that's not what chamber could have said, by the way, what did the dictionary say about that? I don't have one at home for english, just japanese-swedish, swedish-japanese.
No flow of English? It would be more convincing if your native tongue is English. As I said already (how many times do I need to repeat?), I can accept "compatriot" can sound awkward, but the word can just be used to address a crowd. As for the meaning of compatriot, I take it to mean "someone who is from the same country, or someone who either works with or is from the same place as another"

alduren said:
Let's be clear, I was not rude or superior, I just changed my own translation since I was in error, due to your feedback. And in turn I replied my feelings about your translation. And in no ill tone at all. Can't a guy say that he feels your translation is not accurate without you taking it as an insult?
Well, your rudeness and superiority is in the tone you wrote your reply. My question to you is can't a guy express difference in how a translation should be made without sounding rude and superior? Besides you often sound inconsistent, at one moment you said it is just "a bit off", at another you said "not accurate" "not correct" "beat you by a lot" "going too far" "change words to make you unique translation". I wonder where the "no ill tone at all" came from.

alduren said:
I was never rude to you, I offered what I considered normal feedback. Your use of compatriot was strange, it's not common or flowing at all in the context for english. I assumed you just wanted to change out words so they became your own translation at the cost of losing some meaning, and I told you that.
But you also said that 同胞 is not translated as Compatriot. And this is what I disagree. When you wrote "you are just changing words to make your own unique translation, at the cost of making it too far from what's being said. There is really no sense in the change for the first part of the sentence, you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example." you clearly think that you are on the right, and as you said later, it is never a matter of taste, and so the tone you chose to use is to sound superior and absolute, to "correct" my translation, instead of making a suggestion or framing it as a preference. You outright think I was wrong. I cannot see how you can read this part and still do not think you were talking from a superior position not as part of discussion between equals. Besides at the end you still did not explain why you wrote "you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example."

alduren said:

I was only offended and in turn got a bit of a bad manner when you bring up the old stuff, everything prior to that is just plain normal talk about translation from my part. It's just natural I talk some translation when you offer it, sorry I didn't feel your translation was the best, but no need to feel I looked down.
As I said for the umpteenth time, I brought up the old stuff only after you wrote your condescending reply together with your new translation.
symbvApr 11, 2013 2:30 PM
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
Apr 11, 2013 2:32 PM
#310
meneliksempai

Offline
Apr 2013
96
Dudes what is happening here ?

Could we tone down the argument, Alduren thanks for your work, symbv thanks for trying to give some advice. Please lets cut down on the bad blood guys (^_^)'
Apr 11, 2013 2:34 PM
#311
alduren
Offline
Apr 2013
23
symbv said:
alduren said:
K, I will just ask someone with more knowledge about this to get answers, I don't trust your dictionary at all. The people in irc says that it's not with respect at all, it's mainly used in writing and is what their boss would write to them.+"It is towards many."
Did I ever say it is not towards many? How many times do I have to repeat that?? And now you don't even trust dictionaries, huh? OK, the word Kikun is mainly used in writing, which my two dictionaries also mention. As for whether it is with respect, it depends on how you use it. Because it is a Polite Word, if used by a senior person towards someone who is clearly lower rank, then the mismatching politeness becomes roughness. This is why many people only see this word used in address that carries no respect (like from your boss). However, on an equal level and with distance (like the situation Chamber and the ship crew found themselves in) it is indeed used as a 2nd person pronoun with slight respect.

This is what one Japanese wrote about the usage: 「貴君」と相手を呼ぶ場合は、年下の相手ではなく、年長か同年齢か、または知識的な意味で対等関係にある相手に対しわたしは使います。

alduren said:

And tbh you are the rude person, I changed multiple times and adapted my translation to something else in response to your feedback. You are the one stuck and getting up old stuff to get on peoples nerves when I talked some translation with you.
You changed only once, not multiple times. And as soon as you made that single change, you started to act rude and superior. And as I said, you failed to explain why you wrote "you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example." which is why I brought up your first translation. And you even later said you prefer your first translation after all and then proceeded to ask me not to mention about that any more. Who is rude?


alduren said:
It had no flow of english, it didn't address the crowd like I assumed the sentence did, compatriot is forever going to be something I only say about co-workers or people of the same country, and that's not what chamber could have said, by the way, what did the dictionary say about that? I don't have one at home for english, just japanese-swedish, swedish-japanese.
No flow of English? It would be more convincing if your native tongue is English. As I said already (how many times do I need to repeat?), I can accept "compatriot" can sound awkward, but the word can just be used to address a crowd. As for the meaning of compatriot, I take it to mean "someone who is from the same country, or someone who either works with or is from the same place as another"

alduren said:
Let's be clear, I was not rude or superior, I just changed my own translation since I was in error, due to your feedback. And in turn I replied my feelings about your translation. And in no ill tone at all. Can't a guy say that he feels your translation is not accurate without you taking it as an insult?
Well, your rudeness and superiority is in the tone you wrote your reply. My question to you is can't a guy express difference in how a translation should be made without sounding rude and superior? Besides you often sound inconsistent, at one moment you said it is just "a bit off", at another you said "not accurate" "not correct" "beat you by a lot" "going too far" "change words to make you unique translation". I wonder where the "no ill tone at all" came from.

alduren said:
I was never rude to you, I offered what I considered normal feedback. Your use of compatriot was strange, it's not common or flowing at all in the context for english. I assumed you just wanted to change out words so they became your own translation at the cost of losing some meaning, and I told you that.
But you also said that 同胞 is not translated as Compatriot. And this is what I disagree. When you wrote "you are just changing words to make your own unique translation, at the cost of making it too far from what's being said. There is really no sense in the change for the first part of the sentence, you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example." you clearly think that you are on the right, and as you said later, it is never a matter of taste, and so the tone you chose to use is to sound superior and absolute, to "correct" my translation. I cannot see how you can read this part and still do not think you were talking from a superior position not as part of discussion between equals. Besides at the end you still did not explain why you wrote "you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example."

alduren said:

I was only offended and in turn got a bit of a bad manner when you bring up the old stuff, everything prior to that is just plain normal talk about translation from my part. It's just natural I talk some translation when you offer it, sorry I didn't feel your translation was the best, but no need to feel I looked down.
As I said for the umpteenth time, I brought up the old stuff only after you wrote your condescending reply together with your new translation.


Pretty sure I changed more than once, recheck.
The rude things I said were after you bring up my oldest translation. Everything before were not rude, just normal talk. Even if I question your work, it was not intended to be rude or condescending, if you feel that way it's probably just how you feel everything is when you don't get feedback that says something is off with what's translated. The use of not correct etc is not a bad tone, it's just talk about translation, you can't take it personal, it's not an insult to be in error for me, or you, or anyone else. It happens all the time to me, you." If you are never wrong, you are too narrow minded ":) (it's a saying, not meant to you personally.)

Well I understand now you were upset I used words like, wrong, off, make up, error, not correct.
I did not think twice about the use of those words, they were not meant as an insult. I got offended after you bring up the old subs and start being very rude by doing so, even if you got offended before that by my use of wrong words.

All I can say is, we have a language barrier like in gargantia, I did not mean to write insulting, /after the old subs, I did mean to sound a bit rude sometimes.

I use words like "wrong, off, error, not correct, made up" frequently when I chat, and people are not offended by the use of them when we are discussing translation. Sorry, I did not realize I was rude but I am now saying sorry for using blunt words, I will try to use better phrasing towards people I have no history with in the future.
Apr 11, 2013 2:37 PM
#312
AnimageNeby
Offline
Feb 2013
623
symbv said:
alduren said:
K, I will just ask someone with more knowledge about this to get answers, I don't trust your dictionary at all. The people in irc says that it's not with respect at all, it's mainly used in writing and is what their boss would write to them.+"It is towards many."
Did I ever say it is not towards many? How many times do I have to repeat that?? And now you don't even trust dictionaries, huh? OK, the word Kikun is mainly used in writing, which my two dictionaries also mention. As for whether it is with respect, it depends on how you use it. Because it is a Polite Word, if used by a senior person towards someone who is clearly lower rank, then the mismatching politeness becomes roughness. This is why many people only see this word used in address that carries no respect (like from your boss). However, on an equal level and with distance (like the situation Chamber and the ship crew found themselves in) it is indeed used as a 2nd person pronoun with slight respect.

This is what one Japanese wrote about the usage: 「貴君」と相手を呼ぶ場合は、年下の相手ではなく、年長か同年齢か、または知識的な意味で対等関係にある相手に対しわたしは使います。

alduren said:

And tbh you are the rude person, I changed multiple times and adapted my translation to something else in response to your feedback. You are the one stuck and getting up old stuff to get on peoples nerves when I talked some translation with you.
You changed only once, not multiple times. And as soon as you made that single change, you started to act rude and superior. And as I said, you failed to explain why you wrote "you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example." which is why I brought up your first translation. And you even later said you prefer your first translation after all and then proceeded to ask me not to mention about that any more. Who is rude?


alduren said:
It had no flow of english, it didn't address the crowd like I assumed the sentence did, compatriot is forever going to be something I only say about co-workers or people of the same country, and that's not what chamber could have said, by the way, what did the dictionary say about that? I don't have one at home for english, just japanese-swedish, swedish-japanese.
No flow of English? It would be more convincing if your native tongue is English. As I said already (how many times do I need to repeat?), I can accept "compatriot" can sound awkward, but the word can just be used to address a crowd. As for the meaning of compatriot, I take it to mean "someone who is from the same country, or someone who either works with or is from the same place as another"

alduren said:
Let's be clear, I was not rude or superior, I just changed my own translation since I was in error, due to your feedback. And in turn I replied my feelings about your translation. And in no ill tone at all. Can't a guy say that he feels your translation is not accurate without you taking it as an insult?
Well, your rudeness and superiority is in the tone you wrote your reply. My question to you is can't a guy express difference in how a translation should be made without sounding rude and superior? Besides you often sound inconsistent, at one moment you said it is just "a bit off", at another you said "not accurate" "not correct" "beat you by a lot" "going too far" "change words to make you unique translation". I wonder where the "no ill tone at all" came from.

alduren said:
I was never rude to you, I offered what I considered normal feedback. Your use of compatriot was strange, it's not common or flowing at all in the context for english. I assumed you just wanted to change out words so they became your own translation at the cost of losing some meaning, and I told you that.
But you also said that 同胞 is not translated as Compatriot. And this is what I disagree. When you wrote "you are just changing words to make your own unique translation, at the cost of making it too far from what's being said. There is really no sense in the change for the first part of the sentence, you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example." you clearly think that you are on the right, and as you said later, it is never a matter of taste, and so the tone you chose to use is to sound superior and absolute, to "correct" my translation, instead of making a suggestion or framing it as a preference. You outright think I was wrong. I cannot see how you can read this part and still do not think you were talking from a superior position not as part of discussion between equals. Besides at the end you still did not explain why you wrote "you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example."

alduren said:

I was only offended and in turn got a bit of a bad manner when you bring up the old stuff, everything prior to that is just plain normal talk about translation from my part. It's just natural I talk some translation when you offer it, sorry I didn't feel your translation was the best, but no need to feel I looked down.
As I said for the umpteenth time, I brought up the old stuff only after you wrote your condescending reply together with your new translation.


Sigh. Could we drop this whole who was rude to whom and who started it, already?

Let's focus on the technical differences of interpretation. I asked the person I spoke of, I'll let you guys know what she said when she responds.

Besides, as I've understood you guys, it's a polite word that, because of that, when used by a superior to someone lower-raking, it gets impolite?

Ah, you just have to love the Japanese language. :-)
Apr 11, 2013 2:50 PM
#313
symbv

Offline
Sep 2012
10121
alduren said:
Pretty sure I changed more than once, recheck.
What I remember is only you changed from "comrades" to "brethren". At least that is after I joined the discussion. If you made other changes before that, I would not count them.

alduren said:

The rude things I said were after you bring up my oldest translation. Everything before were not rude, just normal talk.
As I said a few times already, I brought up because I do not understand why you wrote "you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example." (and I still don't understand why you wrote that) so I brought up your old translation ("comrades") to tell you that I did not leave out anything in your translation.

alduren said:
Even if I question your work, it was not intended to be rude or condescending, if you feel that way it's probably just how you feel everything is when you don't get feedback that says something is off with what's translated. The use of not correct etc is not a bad tone, it's just talk about translation, you can't take it personal, it's not an insult to be in error for me, or you, or anyone else. It happens all the time to me, you." If you are never wrong, you are too narrow minded ":) (it's a saying, not meant to you personally.)
OK, let us look at that part you wrote as a reply to my suggestion of another translation not using "comrades": "you are just changing words to make your own unique translation, at the cost of making it too far from what's being said. There is really no sense in the change for the first part of the sentence, you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example." I sense dismissiveness when you used words like "just changing" "unique translation" "making it too far" "really no sense" and the last mysterious part about "leaving out". You sounded absolute and did not allow room that I might have good points for my translation. Why not "Your translation looks quite different from what I would usually do, as the word you used seems to come from some other Japanese term, and so it sounds not quite the same as what Chamber was saying." ? (I did not translate the "leaving out" part as I don't know what you were trying to say there)

alduren said:

I use words like "wrong, off, error, not correct, made up" frequently when I chat, and people are not offended by the use of them when we are discussing translation. Sorry, I did not realize I was rude but I am now saying sorry for using blunt words, I will try to use better phrasing towards people I have no history with in the future.
I think we finally reach some good understanding about where our anger came from and I am glad that we finally seem to work it out. I would also apologize for being rude in some of my replies. I am always happy to discuss translation and the merits/demerits of different translations but I also treasure a collegial and friendly mood, perhaps even more.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
Apr 11, 2013 2:54 PM
#314
Takuan_Soho
Offline
Oct 2012
6648
meneliksempai said:
Dudes what is happening here ?

Could we tone down the argument, Alduren thanks for your work, symbv thanks for trying to give some advice. Please lets cut down on the bad blood guys (^_^)'


Argument over subtleties (or is that subtitles) - it IS what we do best on MAL :-)
Apr 11, 2013 2:55 PM
#315
Takuan_Soho
Offline
Oct 2012
6648
symbv said:
I think we finally reach some good understanding about where our anger came from


Frustration over knowing what you want to say and not being able to say it exactly? Yep, know that one very well :-)
Apr 11, 2013 2:58 PM
#316
symbv

Offline
Sep 2012
10121
AnimageNeby said:
Besides, as I've understood you guys, it's a polite word that, because of that, when used by a superior to someone lower-raking, it gets impolite?

Ah, you just have to love the Japanese language. :-)
Such words are surprisingly common in Japanese language. And this is why even native Japanese can get it wrong. I checked the internet and 貴君 kikun is one Japanese expression that occasionally gets asked by a Japanese about its usage. Basically many insult or rough words come from polite words used outside of the proper circumstances that it was originally meant for. So a polite word that sounds too polite becomes a kind of insult. One famous example would be 貴様 Kisama (which you can hear very often in anime/manga, particularly battle shounen stuff) - it used to be a polite word back in the samurai age but nowadays it is always a rough word. Kikun has not reached that stage yet and on formal circumstances it still keeps its polite and respectful tone. But these days most people see the words in everyday informal usage, like from a boss to his subordinates, and here the "look down upon" connotation would be quite strong.
symbvApr 11, 2013 3:06 PM
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
Apr 11, 2013 3:06 PM
#317
Takuan_Soho
Offline
Oct 2012
6648
AnimageNeby said:
Besides, as I've understood you guys, it's a polite word that, because of that, when used by a superior to someone lower-raking, it gets impolite?

Ah, you just have to love the Japanese language. :-)


It could be insulting but I don't think it was meant to be insulting or considered insulting by either party in this animation.

「貴君」と相手を呼ぶ場合は、年下の相手ではなく、年長か同年齢か、または知識的な意味で対等関係にある相手に対しわたしは使います

To translate: When to use: don't use to a younger person, use for older or same age person, also on an equal footing: which would require a certain amount of politeness.

So, to use to a younger person would be condescending and as such an insult, but in this context Chamber would mean to use it to indicate "equal" status. So Symbv is more right than wrong. The reaction I believe as I stated above was that 1) it implied that there was a person in the machine (since it said it was equal), and 2) it stressed humanity to a people for whom humanity is all there is, which is again strange. "Compatriot" would work, except there is no idea of statehood implicit in the word "compatriot", so "fellow human" would fit better.
Apr 11, 2013 3:38 PM
#318
Fiji

Offline
Dec 2011
6101
It was so cool when he said "annihilate". Those beams evaporated those pirates! Dang! Looking forward for more.
Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines.
Apr 11, 2013 3:49 PM
#319
AnimageNeby
Offline
Feb 2013
623
Hollow334 said:


Gen Urobuchi... give it to me, now! This anime is heating up.


Is that your review, hollow? Or just something you found on youtube? The guy actually sounds sensible and nuanced when reviewing his anime.
Apr 11, 2013 4:35 PM
#320
Intereo

Offline
Jun 2011
287
j0x said:
lol the pirates are vaporized!!! looking good so far

I thought I was the only one who laughed at that.

That kid seems to have death possibilities.
Apr 11, 2013 4:38 PM
#321
AnimageNeby
Offline
Feb 2013
623
Ok, I asked the person I talked about, and she said this:

"Kikun is not a word which is generally used in daily life language, so I've actually never heard it being spoken aloud before, in real life it's something that's only used by men in formal letters, so I'm definitely not an expert on it. ^^;;;

But even though the literal meaning of those two kanji is "honorable lord" (or something like that ^^; ) , it is used to address equals or slightly inferiors indeed, you don't use it for people in a higher position. (For example, an army general adressing a lieutenant, that's one way I've seen it used before, both are in high positions, so it IS honorable and respectful, but the speaker is on a similar or slightly higher rank) It can also be used to address people who are your enemies, but you aknowledge them as being strong or on the same military rank as yourself to some extent.

If I had to translate it as it was used in that line, I'd probably just say "you", because I don't know of a way to express that fine nuance in English. ^^;; So the subs seemed okay on that. ^^; "
Apr 11, 2013 6:46 PM
#322
Irenesharda

Offline
Feb 2013
587
Fiji said:
It was so cool when he said "annihilate". Those beams evaporated those pirates! Dang! Looking forward for more.


Well, Chamber isn't called an "annihilation weapon" for nothing!
Apr 11, 2013 6:59 PM
#323
Trizept

Offline
Mar 2013
2470
Holy crap!
Them two just decimated the pirate's fleet :O
I wonder what's in the mind of the other crew members in Gargantia after seeing that
Amazing! I think I fell in love with this anime :)
Apr 11, 2013 7:19 PM
#324
Gunslayerboy
Offline
Sep 2012
12
deave112 said:
Yeah right like I believe that this is going to be Urobuchi's first light hearted series.

Don't let him fool you!

I know exactly what's about to happen.

The war will come to Earth and that's where the series will get darker like all the other shows by Urobuchi...
For anyone that seen Madoka Magica they would know. I guess episode 3 someone is probably going to die.
Apr 12, 2013 5:44 AM
#325
Dalek-baka

Offline
Oct 2011
2379
Gunslayerboy said:
deave112 said:
Yeah right like I believe that this is going to be Urobuchi's first light hearted series.

Don't let him fool you!

I know exactly what's about to happen.

The war will come to Earth and that's where the series will get darker like all the other shows by Urobuchi...
For anyone that seen Madoka Magica they would know. I guess episode 3 someone is probably going to die.
Too bad as I actually wanted to see something different from him - but who knows maybe someone bought him a cat and now he wants to try doing series where most of characters aren't hurt or end up dead/mentally affected.

That would be nice as he has some good ideas and this is opportunity to use it in more lighthearted form.

On the other side as it's rather similar to Macross Zero so far war coming to Earth seems rather probable, followed by total destruction. Than I will just drop my ranking a bit (now it's 8/10).
Apr 12, 2013 6:03 AM
#326
symbv

Offline
Sep 2012
10121
Dalek-baka said:
I actually wanted to see something different from him - but who knows maybe someone bought him a cat and now he wants to try doing series where most of characters aren't hurt or end up dead/mentally affected.

That would be nice as he has some good ideas and this is opportunity to use it in more lighthearted form.
I am with you here. I actually wish that he would expand his scope to do something that does not always involves grimness or terrible fate. This time he insisted he wants to write something positive, to give hope for youngsters becoming members of the broad society. I hope he is telling the whole truth this time.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
Apr 12, 2013 6:04 AM
#327
Jroflcopter

Offline
Jul 2010
398
Another interesting one :D

i wonder how he's gonna recharge his machine since the technology is still somewhat 'primitive' on Earth.
Apr 12, 2013 6:22 AM
#328
Dalek-baka

Offline
Oct 2011
2379
symbv said:
I am with you here. I actually wish that he would expand his scope to do something that does not always involves grimness or terrible fate. This time he insisted he wants to write something positive, to give hope for youngsters becoming members of the broad society. I hope he is telling the whole truth this time.
Wait... there is some interview with him saying that? Awesome :D some faith in this series has been restored.
Actually with this theme it might just work - there is big cultural gap between both parties, set of values not to mention that conditioning thing from first episode.
So making Red more civilised looks like a good idea (after all he is Zentradi here).

I just hope it's not some made up by him stuff and he will go with it.
Apr 12, 2013 6:23 AM
#329
kurokyubi
Offline
Oct 2011
13
im kinda wishing that this series gets 24 episodes instead of majestic princes
Apr 12, 2013 6:44 AM
#330
symbv

Offline
Sep 2012
10121
Dalek-baka said:
symbv said:
I am with you here. I actually wish that he would expand his scope to do something that does not always involves grimness or terrible fate. This time he insisted he wants to write something positive, to give hope for youngsters becoming members of the broad society. I hope he is telling the whole truth this time.
Wait... there is some interview with him saying that? Awesome :D some faith in this series has been restored.

I just hope it's not some made up by him stuff and he will go with it.

Actually it is in the Staff Comment section of the official anime website.

Urobuchi's comment can be found here : http://gargantia.jp/#introduce_comment_2

Translation:

From the planning stage, we gave this anime the target of packing it with messages meant for youngsters, the demography of late teens and early twenties, who are about to go to the society or have just started to be a society member and are feeling confused. With such an aim in mind the story that I came up with is quite a bit different from my previous works. Currently we have this tough situation called "Employment Ice Age", and I hope this work can be a cheering song for those youngsters who are now being forced to fight such harsh battles.


I hope he is not telling the whole truth this time, and my expectation of this series is based entirely on taking in his words by faith.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
Apr 12, 2013 7:56 AM
#331
deave112
Offline
Sep 2011
215
symbv said:
Dalek-baka said:
symbv said:
I am with you here. I actually wish that he would expand his scope to do something that does not always involves grimness or terrible fate. This time he insisted he wants to write something positive, to give hope for youngsters becoming members of the broad society. I hope he is telling the whole truth this time.
Wait... there is some interview with him saying that? Awesome :D some faith in this series has been restored.

I just hope it's not some made up by him stuff and he will go with it.

Actually it is in the Staff Comment section of the official anime website.

Urobuchi's comment can be found here : http://gargantia.jp/#introduce_comment_2

Translation:

From the planning stage, we gave this anime the target of packing it with messages meant for youngsters, the demography of late teens and early twenties, who are about to go to the society or have just started to be a society member and are feeling confused. With such an aim in mind the story that I came up with is quite a bit different from my previous works. Currently we have this tough situation called "Employment Ice Age", and I hope this work can be a cheering song for those youngsters who are now being forced to fight such harsh battles.


I hope he is not telling the whole truth this time, and my expectation of this series is based entirely on taking in his words by faith.



LOL!!

He said about Madoka it's going to be a "light hearted tale" and we all know how that turned out to be...
Apr 12, 2013 8:01 AM
#332
symbv

Offline
Sep 2012
10121
deave112 said:
He said about Madoka it's going to be a "light hearted tale" and we all know how that turned out to be...
True, but is he going to do it a second time? Or for once he will again subvert some fan's expectation and stick true to his words?

Also, in interviews later after Madoka aired, Urobuchi said that he came up with the idea to lie about Madoka's true nature in a hurry when the buzz among fans got too feverish on speculation about Madoka being a dark tale since Urobuchi was involved. At least this time I did not see such feverish speculation and his comment did not come out at the last minute, unlike in Madoka's case.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
Apr 12, 2013 8:03 AM
#333
meneliksempai

Offline
Apr 2013
96
deave112 said:
symbv said:
Dalek-baka said:
symbv said:
I am with you here. I actually wish that he would expand his scope to do something that does not always involves grimness or terrible fate. This time he insisted he wants to write something positive, to give hope for youngsters becoming members of the broad society. I hope he is telling the whole truth this time.
Wait... there is some interview with him saying that? Awesome :D some faith in this series has been restored.

I just hope it's not some made up by him stuff and he will go with it.

Actually it is in the Staff Comment section of the official anime website.

Urobuchi's comment can be found here : http://gargantia.jp/#introduce_comment_2

Translation:

From the planning stage, we gave this anime the target of packing it with messages meant for youngsters, the demography of late teens and early twenties, who are about to go to the society or have just started to be a society member and are feeling confused. With such an aim in mind the story that I came up with is quite a bit different from my previous works. Currently we have this tough situation called "Employment Ice Age", and I hope this work can be a cheering song for those youngsters who are now being forced to fight such harsh battles.


I hope he is not telling the whole truth this time, and my expectation of this series is based entirely on taking in his words by faith.



LOL!!

He said about Madoka it's going to be a "light hearted tale" and we all know how that turned out to be...


You would need a "Evl Dead" type of failure where the show becomes so bad that it becomes hilarious, because the director might be that kind of troll.

I don't have a problem with Grimdark shows, but after some time it gets depressing to watch and I think Titan is already filling the role of Depressing Gorefest for this season.
meneliksempaiApr 12, 2013 8:15 AM
Apr 12, 2013 9:55 AM
#334
SasoriUzumaki

Offline
Nov 2012
764
Yeah!!!


Apr 12, 2013 11:04 AM
#335
T3rm1n4t0r2
Offline
Mar 2011
142
I don't know whether or not to be scared or awed by this extremely promising show! I mean he just vaporized pirates into shear nothingness without so much as a hesitation. His and his robots power are awesome, while the actions by both are equally horrifying. This and Shingeki no Kyojin (Attack on Titan) may turn out to be the stars of this season!
Apr 12, 2013 11:10 AM
#336
ownosourus

Offline
Jan 2012
2608
Great episode once again. The battle was a bit hilarious though.

Apr 12, 2013 11:12 AM
#337
Regicide

Offline
Jun 2012
1848
this anime is pretty great so far.
The music is nice and calming, the atmosphere is very light hearted and completely unlike urobuchi-if he pulls a madoka magica i'll be pretty pissed tho cause the world building is so nice and seems meaningful

I dont really mind it if they just explore the world and do nothing, slice of life style. I guess thats just what I'd prefer cause this world seems so nice to explore
~"The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands." (Pirsig)

Apr 12, 2013 11:26 AM
#338
Allnighter

Offline
Nov 2011
29
I am loving this anime. This second episode had a twist where the MC saves the day; yet, he becomes everyone's object of fear.

With military technology so advanced, Chamber is similar to a Pandora's box, with Red as it's key. Unaware of their overwhelming strength, Amy asks for their power (protection) against the pirates.

Normally, this would be a heroic act of a saving victims in need. However, the Urobuchi's dark style of awesome rescue (execution) kicks in. They swiftly ended the problem with cold military power and precision. After the initial shock and horror, the survivors are now aware that they have a shinigami living in their midst.

In Red's case, he did nothing wrong based on his training and experience as a soldier. He performed his "duties" as efficiently as possible as a living weapon. It is in stark contrast to the heroic "justice" that Amy seeks even though the results are the same.

I dying to watch the next episode to see what happens in the aftermath.
Apr 12, 2013 11:56 AM
#339
T3rm1n4t0r2
Offline
Mar 2011
142
ownosourus said:
Great episode once again. The battle was a bit hilarious though.

You mean the "rape" was hilarious xD
Apr 12, 2013 12:21 PM
#340
meneliksempai

Offline
Apr 2013
96
T3rm1n4t0r2 said:
ownosourus said:
Great episode once again. The battle was a bit hilarious though.

You mean the "rape" was hilarious xD


They tried to rape the women ... so He raped them with lazers. >:)
Apr 12, 2013 3:53 PM
#341
-MgZ_

Offline
Jun 2010
3696
Oh wow. That was badass. The pirates just melted rofl. I also liked dialogue between Amy and Red&Chamber.

I'm so glad I picked up this in my FAL team.

meneliksempai said:
T3rm1n4t0r2 said:
ownosourus said:
Great episode once again. The battle was a bit hilarious though.

You mean the "rape" was hilarious xD


They tried to rape the women ... so He raped them with lazers. >:)


LOL.
Apr 12, 2013 4:36 PM
#342
Mad_Maestro

Offline
Mar 2012
97
This anime is certainly pulling me in... the whole communication issue is quite a nice addition as well as how the humans live on the world... just screams "Great"
Apr 12, 2013 7:31 PM
#343
tlne

Offline
Mar 2012
147
I'm loving this series already. Red has now become the object of fear...hmm.
Wonder how this will play out; seriously I'm dying for episode 3 gah.
★
Apr 12, 2013 7:57 PM
#344
katsu044

Offline
Jan 2011
6646
when he got into the the robot i knew he was gonna wreck shit but h-he vaporized them! that thing is way op haha.

interested in the sea of galaxies and what happened to the earth pretty sure i saw cites below the ocean.

ED was nice too
Apr 12, 2013 9:24 PM
#345
Jets

Offline
Dec 2011
80807
This episode has really fast-forwarded stuff in a positive way.
When I saw that it will only be 12 episodes, it had me thinking that this might be tad too short based on the potential of how far this anime can go.

Apr 12, 2013 10:44 PM
#346
Rezurrekt

Offline
Dec 2010
2712
That was really epic. I'm not even fond of mechas but this may be one of the few I like.

The whole vs. new technology is nothing new but it's still cool to see how two different eras come together.

Apr 13, 2013 3:58 AM
#347
Mrameez
Offline
May 2012
181
So Where did you guys watch this? I can't find a subbed version.

Apr 13, 2013 5:53 AM
#348
AnimageNeby
Offline
Feb 2013
623
symbv, Alduren; maybe you missed it, so I'll post it in full what the person I talked about said. I know the discussion has subsided by now, but it can always be welcome to get the input of a third party, even afterwards, so:

"Kikun is not a word which is generally used in daily life language, so I've actually never heard it being spoken aloud before, in real life it's something that's only used by men in formal letters, so I'm definitely not an expert on it. ^^;;

But even though the literal meaning of those two kanji is "honourable lord" (or something like that ^^; ) , it is used to address equals or slightly inferiors indeed, you don't use it for people in a higher position. (For example, an army general addressing a lieutenant, that's one way I've seen it used before, both are in high positions, so it IS honourable and respectful, but the speaker is on a similar or slightly higher rank) It can also be used to address people who are your enemies, but you acknowledge them as being strong or on the same military rank as yourself to some extent.

If I had to translate it as it was used in that line, I'd probably just say "you", because I don't know of a way to express that fine nuance in English. So the subs seemed okay on that.

His speech is very broken and unnatural, it is not fluid Japanese at all, so there is no "fluid translation" for it, really. It's not even a sentence...; I just heard it as "You, as fellow humans, participating in alliance." I don't think there's any difference in translating it with "joining" or "participate", it means the exact same thing, doesn't it? He said "sanshuu" 参集 , written with the kanji of "san" in "sanka" (to participate, to take part in something) and "shuu" from "shuugou" (to gather, to form a group), so either way seems fine.

The word used for comrades / fellow humans is 同胞 (douhou), which is actually the same word used to describe the Kuruta clan in HxH, so it could be brethren / brothers as well. I guess it depends on if the humans involved are actually family or fellow countrymen in some sense (in which case they'd be brethren), or just a random gathering of otherwise unrelated people (in which case they'd be "fellow humans"). But because I don't know the characters or their positions or the story, I can't say for sure, of course, so don't take my opinion as fact, please."


Mrameez said:
So Where did you guys watch this? I can't find a subbed version.


It's on almost all anime-sites by now; where did you go looking? ;-) It's been translated by a member of this forum/thread, in fact, only a few days ago. If you google with 'Suisei no Gargantia Episode 2 streaming' you'll find lots that are subtitled, I'm sure.
AnimageNebyApr 13, 2013 5:57 AM
Apr 13, 2013 6:13 AM
#349
symbv

Offline
Sep 2012
10121
^ I actually read it but I am hesitant to make further comment on it because I want to leave this aside after that fierce night of argument. Talk about fatigue.

Anyway...

What you got from the third party matches my understanding. Basically as a formal address, the term KIKUN *is* respectful (as I said all along), but used in a circumstance which is out of place with the politeness level this term is meant for it becomes disrespectful.

And join and participate are both fine. Also something I have been saying all along too. Participate is not better, and vice versa.

And as I later stated, I took "fellow" to be the best fit for 同胞. Brethren has connotation of family or religion institution; Compatriot has connotation of fellow countryman. Here "fellow" makes sense as to Ledo those ship crews is just a gathering of random people.
symbvApr 13, 2013 8:23 AM
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
Apr 13, 2013 7:28 AM
#350
kyosuketaka

Offline
Nov 2012
82
and story will begin


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