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| I can really feel the darkness of Urobuchi in this episode . 7 episodes left with 4 servants still alive = 1 death every episode or two. Plus considering about the incoming "island episode", the rate of deaths can only go up. @thess Nasu has decided the outcome of this war before Urobuchi even started writing F/Z, but besides certain main characters, the fate of other characters are in Urobuchi's jurisdiction. He could've made Kayneth lives peacefully with Sola after he loses Lancer (like Illya in FSN after losing Berserker), but instead he kills them off (brutally at that). Hence in my opinion Urobuchi is still the main cause of character deaths, not Nasu. If Nasu were to write FZ, I think there may be a possibility that the remaining masters would be made survive. STM said: Lancer's death scene is one of the best death scenes in the history of anime. Fucking amazing. +1 |
 ~ IA- Aria on the Planetes ~ Vocaloid V3 voiced by LiA (Clannad Afterstory, Angel Beats! theme song singer) |
| Ok, I officially hate Kiritsugu with passion. He keeps talking about saving the world, yet he does the cruelest things I saw in anime. He sounds more like a dictator than a hero. I hope he'll suffer both mentally and physically before the end. Poor Keyneth, he was willing to give up everything he had just to have Sola-Ui alive and they just kill them like that? As if human life or honour meant nothing to him! Kiritsugu totally wins in as the most hypocritical character on screen and the biggest jerk. I seriously don't give a damn what happened to him in the past, actually, I'd love to see it and laugh at him. NOTHING gives anyone the right to act that way. And considering that Saber had no other issues with him than the grail thing in F/SN. I seriously can't see those 2 series related anymore. Kiritsugu is the worst lead I've ever seen. Even including all those annoying characters, they at least didn't make me want to burn them alive... centimetre by centimetre. I feel much better now. Aside from that, very good episode. Full of emotions and deaths. Too bad none of them was Kiritsugu's. |
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HikaruIzumi said: You are mistaken if you believe Saber only hated him because of the Grail in Stay Night. Dialogue in Heaven's Feel already implied the "Kiritsugu is a cold-blooded killer" plot point. One particular end it's basically dubbed the "Kiritsugu end" in which Shirou, according to Kirei, kills his feelings and becomes an unfeelig machine willing to kill anyone for his objectives. I wouldn't depend on Saber's memory too much as Saber only remembers the 4th Holy Grail War literally "as a dream". Saber only remembers her time as Kiritsugu's servant as a dream since that's basically how her real body received the information...fragmented and in dreams.Ok, I officially hate Kiritsugu with passion. He keeps talking about saving the world, yet he does the cruelest things I saw in anime. He sounds more like a dictator than a hero. I hope he'll suffer both mentally and physically before the end. Poor Keyneth, he was willing to give up everything he had just to have Sola-Ui alive and they just kill them like that? As if human life or honour meant nothing to him! Kiritsugu totally wins in as the most hypocritical character on screen and the biggest jerk. I seriously don't give a damn what happened to him in the past, actually, I'd love to see it and laugh at him. NOTHING gives anyone the right to act that way. And considering that Saber had no other issues with him than the grail thing in F/SN. I seriously can't see those 2 series related anymore. Kiritsugu is the worst lead I've ever seen. Even including all those annoying characters, they at least didn't make me want to burn them alive... centimetre by centimetre. I feel much better now. Aside from that, very good episode. Full of emotions and deaths. Too bad none of them was Kiritsugu's. Either way, Saber point blank tells Shirou she was surprised at the Kiritsugu she saw in Shirou's memories (Master and Servants share memories in their sleep) and that the Kiritsugu he knew wasn't gentle. She also mentions details of things she did in the last war, and casually mentions how Kiritsugu manipulated a particular battle behind her back (Caster's battle). The way she says it basically suggests Saber was just withholding the details since Shirou wasn't going to believe tales of a Kiritsugu he never met, she even evaded saying Kiritsugu was her master for half the war. |
Leon-GunApr 24, 2012 4:36 AM
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Leon-Gun said: You are mistaken if you believe Saber only hated him because of the Grail in Stay Night. Dialogue in Heaven's Feel already implied the "Kiritsugu is a cold-blooded killer" plot point. One particular end it's basically dubbed the "Kiritsugu end" in which Shirou, according to Kirei, kills his feelings and becomes an unfeelig machine willing to kill anyone for his objectives. I wouldn't depend on Saber's memory too much as Saber only remembers the 4th Holy Grail War literally "as a dream". Saber only remembers her time as Kiritsugu's servant as a dream since that's basically how her real body received the information...fragmented and in dreams. Either way, Saber point blank tells Shirou she was surprised at the Kiritsugu she saw in Shirou's memories (Master and Servants share memories in their sleep) and that the Kiritsugu he knew wasn't gentle. She also mentions details of things she did in the last war, and casually mentions how Kiritsugu manipulated a particular battle behind her back (Caster's battle). The way she says it basically suggests Saber was just withholding the details since Shirou wasn't going to believe tales of a Kiritsugu he never met, she even evaded saying Kiritsugu was her master for half the war. Sorry, I didn't word it properly, I was talking about the anime, I haven't played/read any of the novels or visual novels so my knowledge of HF is limited to what I read on the net and usually details like that aren't there. You have a point there, I must have missed Saber having weak memories of it (I watched the whole anime in 2 days so I guess it shows XD). I remember her saying that he wasn't so gentle, but in the anime she didn't put much importance into that so I thought it wasn't as bad. But I guess she was just trying not to destroy Shirou's image about his father. Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense now. |
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Leon-Gun said: You know LunarMoon, it seems to me like you believed Zouken's words to the letter. Zouken even laughs at his deviousness when he thinks he managed to convince Shirou that Was this specifically stated in the visual novel? I don't remember it, and nothing I've read in reference to HF's plot references it. As for Archer, he's a little like Kiritsugu, I give you that. But the path to get there was different.. let alone the fact Archer had many MANY reasons to be a cynic asshole... And Kiritsugu didn't? And Kirei hated Kiritsugu's guts. He actually likes Shirou, and SHirou likes Kirei, something he only ever admits once. |
| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan! |
| finally a good episode in this lame ass show nevertheless - Saber is still a retarded dumb bitch and evryone that likes her is a retard as well, Emiya Kiritsugu proving once again that hes the only good male character in this crap |
lots of music -  |
| too bad Lancer died, I kinda like him. And he was actually given some serious screen time too. |
incisorr said: finally a good episode in this lame ass show nevertheless - Saber is still a retarded dumb bitch and evryone that likes her is a retard as well, Emiya Kiritsugu proving once again that hes the only good male character in this crap you must be skipping all the kirei episodes if you think that kiritsugu is the only good male character in this anime |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: incisorr said: finally a good episode in this lame ass show nevertheless - Saber is still a retarded dumb bitch and evryone that likes her is a retard as well, Emiya Kiritsugu proving once again that hes the only good male character in this crap you must be skipping all the kirei episodes if you think that kiritsugu is the only good male character in this anime Or all the Rider scenes. Or all the Lancer scenes. Or all the Gilgamesh scenes. Etc, etc. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| Seeing as I know how the story goes were in for a lot more of these epic yet shocking moments. And that's what I love about this show. One moment the fight is being epic as hell and another moment a major thing happens outta nowere. Shame though that lancer died cause he was one epic charachter. Next up probably a whole lot more berserker action :D |
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| Poor Lancer. It's so sad that he had to die like this. Now I understand why people say that being Lancer is suffering. As for Kiritsugu vs. Saber, I'm on his side. War is hell. Killing people for honor sounds even more sick than his actions. Sorry, Saber. You are too idealistic. This is why I love F/Z. No happy end. Happens rarely but when it does it's a real deal. So, next episode is "Eight contract". Bey bey, Tokiomi? I assume Kariya will succeed killing him this time. I don't think Kirei would dare to do that now. He thinks that saving Kariya is rebellion and seems to be confused about that thus he won't kill Tokiomi. Kariya on the other hand really wants Tokomi dead. Berserker also likes Gilgamesh, so it should be quite a fight. ^^ |
PerlaNemesis said: Oh Kirei, you lovable bastard.Poor Lancer. It's so sad that he had to die like this. Now I understand why people say that being Lancer is suffering. As for Kiritsugu vs. Saber, I'm on his side. War is hell. Killing people for honor sounds even more sick than his actions. Sorry, Saber. You are too idealistic. This is why I love F/Z. No happy end. Happens rarely but when it does it's a real deal. So, next episode is "Eight contract". Bey bey, Tokiomi? I assume Kariya will succeed killing him this time. I don't think Kirei would dare to do that now. He thinks that saving Kariya is rebellion and seems to be confused about that thus he won't kill Tokiomi. Kariya on the other hand really wants Tokomi dead. Berserker also likes Gilgamesh, so it should be quite a fight. ^^ |
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| *whistles* Kiritsugu makes one hell of a villain. |
TheTsunami said: *whistles* Kiritsugu makes one hell of a villain. He's not the villain though. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
insan3soldiern said: TheTsunami said: *whistles* Kiritsugu makes one hell of a villain. He's not the villain though. I know, which makes it all the more entertaining. |
TheTsunami said: insan3soldiern said: TheTsunami said: *whistles* Kiritsugu makes one hell of a villain. He's not the villain though. I know, which makes it all the more entertaining. There's a term for that. Anti-hero. Leon-Gun said: dankickyou said: Considering he already did it in UBW, yeah. Also, Cu'Chulainn may only have one spear but his spear can rape reality to ensure the death of the opponent and even destroy entire armies single-handedly. Would you rather have 2 spears that can only take out 1-2 enemies at a time or 1 spear that can wipe out a hundreds of soldiers?If Diarmuid and Cu Chulainn places were reversed, Cu Chulainn would have stabbed Kiritsugu and Kayneth dead before succumbing to his wounds, thats how badass he is. How does a spear that guarantees death (unless you have plot armor) for one person take out hundreds of soldiers at a time? |
ataraxialApr 24, 2012 6:03 PM
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ataraxial said: It has two modes of attack. Cuchulainn's preferable method of attack is a one-hit anti-unit attack that warps causality ensuring death on an almost 100% ratio(meaning it hits no matter what and it almost always ensures death... even Saber was hit by it even though she managed to evade getting her heart pierced). TheTsunami said: insan3soldiern said: TheTsunami said: *whistles* Kiritsugu makes one hell of a villain. He's not the villain though. I know, which makes it all the more entertaining. There's a term for that. Anti-hero. Leon-Gun said: dankickyou said: Considering he already did it in UBW, yeah. Also, Cu'Chulainn may only have one spear but his spear can rape reality to ensure the death of the opponent and even destroy entire armies single-handedly. Would you rather have 2 spears that can only take out 1-2 enemies at a time or 1 spear that can wipe out a hundreds of soldiers?If Diarmuid and Cu Chulainn places were reversed, Cu Chulainn would have stabbed Kiritsugu and Kayneth dead before succumbing to his wounds, thats how badass he is. How does a spear that guarantees death (unless you have plot armor) for one person take out hundreds of soldiers at a time? The second method of attack is only seen in Unlimited Blade Works when Lancer fights Archer. He jumps towards the sky and powers up a secondary attack that seemingly transforms Dae Bolg into a rain of spears that hits a massive area, according to the wishes of Lancer. The larger the area of effect the less possibilities of the targets being killed by the hit, but the targets will still be hit. This attack is classified as Anti-Army meaning it can hit large amounts of people (a maximum of 50 enemies to be exact). Either way, beyond the versatile nature of Gae Bolg (since it can attack one enemy or multiple enemies at will), Fate's Cuchulainn also had the special ability of escaping near death situations and this is actually very well put to the test since Lancer actually dueled and survived at least one battle against all six opponents (including Assassin who had an attack with no escape and Berserker who's shown to be almost impossible to survive against). Contrary to popular belief Lancer also never dies first in Fate/Stay Night. He's actually one of the last to die in at least two arcs. And I think someone else said it but, Cuchulainn also had magical runes given to him by the same person that gave him Gae Bolg. He only used them in UBW and he tried not to rely on them too much, mostly because of pride than anything else. Like we said, Cuchulainn is literally the top boss when we talk Irish heroes. He was a demi-god too (although mortal so not that high in godhood) and his mythological self was so overpowered that he only died because of how careless he was with geis. And even then he still managed to fatally injure all his opponents and die standing. I don't think a man who's only known for having two sweet weapons, being a woman stealer and dying at the hands of a wild pig, can even compare. |
Leon-GunApr 24, 2012 7:08 PM
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| I find it hilarious how some people (minority) jump to hate a character like Kiritsugu and call him a hypocrite lol. They must be watching a different show than I am or are expecting him to be like Natsu or Naruto and charge in head on in the open in the middle of a war while yelling about risking his life to protect his Nakama at the top of his lungs with heroic music playing (run-on sentence was necessary). This is Fate/Zero, plot armour isn't the only plot here, every single participant in this war is at risk 24/7, regardless how powerful or weak. Also, Kiritsugu openly stated that he will do whatever it takes, evil or good to win this war. He has his reasons, he isn't really a good guy and he definitely isn't a bad guy. Can't a complex character that isn't one dimensional be interesting? In all seriousness though, the more hate Kiritsugu recieves, the more I like him as a character. |
| @ Shuda Some people don't care how complex a character is (which I agree Kiritsugu has certainly proven to be), if they don't agree with his methods it equals a bad character. But, I don't see it that way. As I said before, I don't really agree with his methods but there was some truth in his words and his actions DO get results. Still I see Saber's side as well. Results or not, killing people in cold blood WILL fuck you up. It isn't as though Kiritsugu doesn't feel anything, if you watch his body language throughout the series you can see that he doesn't enjoy his actions. But, I imagine you realize that and, of course, so does he. It's interesting how he doesn't mind playing the "villain", a term that I'm using loosely as I don't believe him to be one, and, in his view, he's helping more people than he's hurting. But are his actions right? I don't know. At the very least I can't completely agree with him, just like I can't completely agree with Saber here. I don't believe that a person should have the right to decide to kill people for the "greater good". That said, I don't hate Kiritsugu. Actually, this episode has pretty much propelled him up there with Saber and Kotomine as one of my favorite characters in the series. |
Ston3_FreeN7Apr 24, 2012 8:29 PM
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| @Insan3Soldiern Seeing a post like yours was refreshing. There was no bias or personal feelings fogging your judgement and interpretation. Like you, I too believe that what Kiritsugu is doing isn't entirely "right" and even share a few similar views with Diarmuid and Saber in rl however, I see Kiritsugu's point of view just as clearly. Honestly, the state their world is in, the Holy Grail Wars and especially the Magi make Kiritsugu's actions seem necessary (imo). I see him more like an idealistic and heroic man who has fallen into the darkness to seek the light. He's in pain. He is definitely hurting inside but he keeps his poker face as flawless as ever. I feel he truly believes that this is the only path left that he can take. Irisviel is probably the only one that has seen the "real" Kiritsugu; the kid who walked on that island, the kid who grew up seeing the bitter truth of life, the horrors of death and the man who can love and give birth to a daughter. I'm not too knowledgeable on the Einzberns but in a way Kiritsugu seems to be sacrificing himself to free his wife and daughter from their eternal burden so they can all finally achieve happiness. This is even more tragic because we all know the inevitable upcoming truth. When I think of the trauma that specific event will have on Kiritsugu, I feel the true essence of his real self will come to light and entwine with his ice cold methods and ideals to form "Emiya Kiritsugu". |
| I just have a feeling that Kiritsugu will share a lot of similarities with Homura, even more than just their unique combat style. We'll see. |
| fuck Kiritsugu. Lancer deserved better than that. sure it's about winning but that seemed like spitting in Saber and Lancer's faces. Oh and of course then pissing all over Lancer/Kayneth. Was that really necessary? He has them shot afterwards? I wish for a Rider win even if it can't happen. because Kiritsugu is a douche. |
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| O.k., 3 things: 1. Kiritsugu is a cruel, cruel bastard, yet he is probably my favorite of the Masters. As a character, he's arguably worse than Ryuunosuke. The latter was child-like in his thirst for bloodshed, whereas the former is planning on killing everyone and everything for the greater good. I don't know who has a more backwards philosophy: Ryuunosuke or Kiritsugu? If you think about it, they almost exist on the same plane of characterization. Kiritsugu's heart is in the right place (or at least he thinks it is), but his actions don't justify the means. Makes me wonder if it's more senseless to kill with a purpose such as his or without one like Ryuunosuke. Granted, killing another living being is awful in itself, but if things keep going the way they do, Kiritsugu could probably become the most disgusting character of the entire show. I like him for growing into the well-developed bastard that he is, which is going to make any sort of karmic action brought upon him all the more intriguing in terms of plot. 2. This. Placed under spoiler for obvious reasons: 3. This is "Plot Twist: The Episode". My God, the twists in this. Timed perfectly, came when you least expected them. I'm usually good with these kinds of things, but the writers had me fooled with each moment here. We're only 3 episodes into season 2 and things are already looking awesome. My favorite of the series so far. Bring on the rest, ufotable. I'm ready! |
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mystik said: fuck Kiritsugu. Lancer deserved better than that. sure it's about winning but that seemed like spitting in Saber and Lancer's faces. Oh and of course then pissing all over Lancer/Kayneth. Was that really necessary? He has them shot afterwards? I wish for a Rider win even if it can't happen. because Kiritsugu is a douche. remember that Kiritsugu does not see Saber as a companion, but a mere weapon/tool. |
| Ryunnosuke killed as many people, adults and children, as he could get his hands on for no reason other than to satisfy his obsession with gore, causing them as much pain as possible. Mindless murder. Kiritsugu always wanted to be a hero by saving people and killing "bad guys" in the process. He HAS saved people before, he actually cares about people whether you think so or not. He has always followed this ideal even when he became a gun for hire. Now he is participating in a war where opposing Masters and Servants *must* be eliminated in order for the Grail to materialise. Call it childish or naive, whatever. You can't spin the difference between the two where Ryunnosuke is a better person. He's not. |
Subby said: You can't spin the difference between the two where Ryunnosuke is a better person. He's not. I haven't seen anyone imply that Ryuunosuke is a better person. But the biggest difference between him and Kiritsugu, is that Ryuunosuke never realised that what he was doing was wrong, to him it was art not murder. While Kiritsugu is fully aware of what he's doing, he knows it's wrong (how he keeps avoiding Saber) and messed up but he sees it as the only solution to reach his goal and he's much better at it than Ryuunosuke. Basically, Ryuunosuke would just need some psychiatric help to realise he's messed up and stop, but Kiritsugu would need a bullet through his head or to win the grail to stop but I doubt that would stop him, he would just find another reason why to murder. Since he does that to stop evil and that can't be stopped, especially since he is trying to stop it by doing more evil. Ryuunosuke is so messed up that he doesn't realise it, Kiritsugu does but he doesn't stop. Basically, the question is what is worse according to you, not to realise that you do evil and cruel stuff or to realise it and keep doing it. |
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Leon-Gun said: It has two modes of attack. Cuchulainn's preferable method of attack is a one-hit anti-unit attack that warps causality ensuring death on an almost 100% ratio(meaning it hits no matter what and it almost always ensures death... even Saber was hit by it even though she managed to evade getting her heart pierced). The second method of attack is only seen in Unlimited Blade Works when Lancer fights Archer. He jumps towards the sky and powers up a secondary attack that seemingly transforms Dae Bolg into a rain of spears that hits a massive area, according to the wishes of Lancer. The larger the area of effect the less possibilities of the targets being killed by the hit, but the targets will still be hit. This attack is classified as Anti-Army meaning it can hit large amounts of people (a maximum of 50 enemies to be exact). Either way, beyond the versatile nature of Gae Bolg (since it can attack one enemy or multiple enemies at will), Fate's Cuchulainn also had the special ability of escaping near death situations and this is actually very well put to the test since Lancer actually dueled and survived at least one battle against all six opponents (including Assassin who had an attack with no escape and Berserker who's shown to be almost impossible to survive against). Contrary to popular belief Lancer also never dies first in Fate/Stay Night. He's actually one of the last to die in at least two arcs. And I think someone else said it but, Cuchulainn also had magical runes given to him by the same person that gave him Gae Bolg. He only used them in UBW and he tried not to rely on them too much, mostly because of pride than anything else. Like we said, Cuchulainn is literally the top boss when we talk Irish heroes. He was a demi-god too (although mortal so not that high in godhood) and his mythological self was so overpowered that he only died because of how careless he was with geis. And even then he still managed to fatally injure all his opponents and die standing. I don't think a man who's only known for having two sweet weapons, being a woman stealer and dying at the hands of a wild pig, can even compare. Oh right, I forgot about that... it wasn't shown very clearly in the UBW movie with it looking like he just threw Gae Bolg at Archer for the lulz who stopped it with Rho Aias. It's cool that he has a powerful noble phantasm though, definitely makes him even more deadly. I thought Diarmuid's story was a lot more tragic than embarassing or anything like that. It showed how loyal and good-natured he was. It's not really like he could've done something different when he was bound by the geis and all. He also has the Eye of the Mind ability, which is similar to Cu Chulainn's ability to escape from battles. I like both Lancers a lot because they are much more tactical servants. They are the most agile, but not the most powerful. Their noble phantasms are less about destruction and over-powering the enemy than about finding the right opportunity to secure an effective and efficient kill (excluding Gae Bolg's Anti-Army mode, of course). It takes a lot of strategy and cunning in order to use a Lancer-class servant properly, and Diarmuid is a better example of this than Cu Chulainn is. He has two noble phantasms, and both of them are passive in nature. Which, in my opinion, is really quite cool. Just taking his first battle with Saber for example - the fact that he was able to wound her so severely while not being nearly as powerful of a servant as she is nor have nearly as powerful of a noble phantasm as she has is quite impressive. |
ataraxialApr 25, 2012 8:53 AM
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HikaruIzumi said: Subby said: You can't spin the difference between the two where Ryunnosuke is a better person. He's not. I haven't seen anyone imply that Ryuunosuke is a better person. But the biggest difference between him and Kiritsugu, is that Ryuunosuke never realised that what he was doing was wrong, to him it was art not murder. While Kiritsugu is fully aware of what he's doing, he knows it's wrong (how he keeps avoiding Saber) and messed up but he sees it as the only solution to reach his goal and he's much better at it than Ryuunosuke. Basically, Ryuunosuke would just need some psychiatric help to realise he's messed up and stop, but Kiritsugu would need a bullet through his head or to win the grail to stop but I doubt that would stop him, he would just find another reason why to murder. Since he does that to stop evil and that can't be stopped, especially since he is trying to stop it by doing more evil. Ryuunosuke is so messed up that he doesn't realise it, Kiritsugu does but he doesn't stop. Basically, the question is what is worse according to you, not to realise that you do evil and cruel stuff or to realise it and keep doing it. Kiritsugu isn't a psychopathic killer, like Ryuunosuke, and he doesn't enjoy what he does. If world peace was to be obtained with the aid of the Grail, not only would it be impossible for him to harm anyone, but it's doubtful that he would ever wish to do so, as he only kills for what he views as a means to protect others, in an inherently violent world. As for Ryuunosuke, I doubt that psychiatric help would be of any more use to him than it would be for Charles Manson. |
| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan! |
LunarMoon said: Kiritsugu isn't a psychopathic killer, like Ryuunosuke, and he doesn't enjoy what he does. If world peace was to be obtained with the aid of the Grail, not only would it be impossible for him to harm anyone, but it's doubtful that he would ever wish to do so, as he only kills for what he views as a means to protect others, in an inherently violent world. That was exactly my point, read it again if you missed it. The thing is, that the result is the same as what Ryuunosuke did but on a much smaller scale. Beside, I was replying to comparing Kiritsugu and Ryuunosuke, not saying that they were the same. Their goals are different but in the end they do the same thing. That's a fact. LunarMoon said: As for Ryuunosuke, I doubt that psychiatric help would be of any more use to him than it would be for Charles Manson. Once again, you missed my point. He was so messed up that it probably wouldn't help him but his problem was lying in his mental health unlike Kirisugu who is more or less alright mentally. I was trying to say that he wasn't a heartless killer in his eyes, he was creating art. While Kiritsugu is aware that he is doing something messed up, otherwise he wouldn't have trouble looking at Saber's face. What is more wrong to you is for you to decide because this is very subjective topic. |
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| - Ryuunosuke finds pleasure out of killing defenceless people and didn't have any intention of ever stopping. Hell, he feeds off it and he would of only gotten more and more out of hand as time went on. No mental help would ever help him, he was already too far in to turn back. - Kiritsugu is openly stating that he will ensure the blood that is spilt in Fuyuki whether by his hands or not will be the last blood spilt by mankind. Also, he's targetting Magi and that is the purpose of this war and everyone involved is prepared to risk their lives. Sure his "dream" is Naive, but this is an omnipotent vessel that promises anything and everything A man who grows worse day by day or a man who admits to his sin but sees them necessary in order to put an end to it. They're both killing but guess what, one wants to continue doing it eternally and one wants to see it end. |
Kayaba-Apr 25, 2012 11:36 AM
-Shuda- said: - Ryuunosuke finds pleasure out of killing defenceless people and didn't have any intention of ever stopping. Hell, he feeds off it and he would of only gotten more and more out of hand as time went on. No mental help would ever help him, he was already too far in to turn back. - Kiritsugu is openly stating that he will ensure the blood that is spilt in Fuyuki whether by his hands or not will be the last blood spilt by mankind. Also, he's targetting Magi and that is the purpose of this war and everyone involved is prepared to risk their lives. Sure his "dream" is Naive, but this is an omnipotent vessel that promises anything and everything A man who grows worse day by day or a man who admits to his sin but sees them necessary in order to put an end to it. They're both killing but guess what, one wants to continue doing it eternally and one wants to see it end. I agree with this. This is a Holy Grail War, after all, so saying that Kiritsugu is as bad as Ryuunosuke just because he killed some people is completely ridiculous. Kiritsugu is just a bit more practical than most. |
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| Uryuu was torturing and killing defenceless children and having Caster keep them alive with magecraft to prolong their suffering, entirely for his own amusement. Kiritsugu is using dishonourable but practical tactics in a contest where the participants must eliminate each other. And he's doing it so that he might bring an end to humanity's suffering. I'm amazed that anyone would draw parallels between them. |
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HikaruIzumi said: LunarMoon said: Kiritsugu isn't a psychopathic killer, like Ryuunosuke, and he doesn't enjoy what he does. If world peace was to be obtained with the aid of the Grail, not only would it be impossible for him to harm anyone, but it's doubtful that he would ever wish to do so, as he only kills for what he views as a means to protect others, in an inherently violent world. That was exactly my point, read it again if you missed it. The thing is, that the result is the same as what Ryuunosuke did but on a much smaller scale. Beside, I was replying to comparing Kiritsugu and Ryuunosuke, not saying that they were the same. Their goals are different but in the end they do the same thing. That's a fact. This has already been covered in several preceding posts, once by myself in post 332, and further continued by Shuda, Ataraxial, and Topgunu69. The problem is that they’re not the same at all. HikaruIzumi said: LunarMoon said: HikaruIzumi said: As for Ryuunosuke, I doubt that psychiatric help would be of any more use to him than it would be for Charles Manson.Basically, Ryuunosuke would just need some psychiatric help to realise he's messed up and stop, but Kiritsugu would need a bullet through his head or to win the grail to stop but I doubt that would stop him, he would just find another reason why to murder. Once again, you missed my point. He was so messed up that it probably wouldn't help him but his problem was lying in his mental health unlike Kirisugu who is more or less alright mentally. You're contradicting yourself. Choose one or the other. |
LunarMoonApr 25, 2012 1:07 PM
| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan! |
LunarMoon said: This has already been covered in several preceding posts, once by myself in post 332, and extrapolated upon by Shuda, Ataraxial, and Topgun69. The problem is that they’re not the same at all. I'm saying the same thing, like I said before, I was just replying on someone's comparing them. Read what I write. I agree they're not the same I wrote that several times. I just say that they both kill. That's true. I agree that they both have different reasons and I wrote that. I also wrote that Kiritsugu is trying to destroy evil in the world. So, I really don't know what you are trying to say. Like I said here, they goals are different AND I replied to their comparison, pointing out the ONLY thing they could be compared in and saying that it can't be generally said whether one is right or wrong since the poster implied that people thought Ryuunosuke was right what I disagree with. Here, proof: HikaruIzumi said: Besides, I was replying to comparing Kiritsugu and Ryuunosuke, not saying that they were the same. Their goals are different but in the end they do the same thing. HikaruIzumi said: Basically, the question is what is worse according to you, not to realise that you do evil and cruel stuff or to realise it and keep doing it. Aka that is isn't a question of being right and wrong. They both kill. It's a fact. They have different goals. One realises what he does, the other is mentally ill. They are at war there. There is no right or wrong. You can agree with one's way but can't say it's right or wrong. War doesn't work that way. No one is right and no one is wrong at the same time. You choose who to agree with but if you say that killing people is right whatever the reason is then there is something wrong with you. It may be justified, it may be the only choice but it can't be "right". LunarMoon said: You're contradicting yourself. Choose one or the other. HikaruIzumi said: ...his problem was lying in his mental health... HikaruIzumi said: ...Ryuunosuke would just need some psychiatric help to realise he's messed up... I really don't see how that is contradicting. So saying that his problem lies in his mental health is something completely different than saying that saying that he needs psychiatric help? Sorry, I thought it was clear enough that I meant the same thing but said in different words. I should have been clearer. Anyway, what I meant by both those is that he is/was mentally ill not that it would work for 100%, who knows maybe it might we will never know. Notice that I didn't reply to anyone esle's post. Because I, too, agree with everythig that was said. If my replying to something I found funny (I don't see anime as serious business) aka saying Ryuunosuke was better than Kiritsugu with my own analysis offended you, I'm sorry about that but I'm entitled to say it anyway. You have different opinon, ok. You want discuss it with me, ok. But we share the same opinion so why are you arguing? |
SuiNoByakkoApr 25, 2012 1:43 PM
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HikaruIzumi said: He was so messed up that it probably wouldn't help him... For the record, you also said this, which is what LunarMoon pointed out as contradictory to this: HikaruIzumi said: ...Ryuunosuke would just need some psychiatric help to realise he's messed up... |
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ataraxial said: HikaruIzumi said: He was so messed up that it probably wouldn't help him... For the record, you also said this, which is what LunarMoon pointed out as contradictory to this: HikaruIzumi said: ...Ryuunosuke would just need some psychiatric help to realise he's messed up... I'm starting to be tired of requoting myself. HikaruIzumi said: He was so messed up that it probably wouldn't help him but his problem was lying in his mental health Full sentence (relevant part). I meant the same thing, I didn't say it would work for 100%, just that it was an option. I was pointing out that it had a continuation that further explained what I meant, LunarMoon bolded only one part of the sentence I bolded the other one that actually states what I was trying to say. Certainly, taken out of context it does look contradictory. For the record I also wrote this: HikaruIzumi said: Sorry, I thought it was clear enough that I meant the same thing but said in different words. I should have been clearer. I admit I chose misleading wording, but in the end I meant the same thing. I tried to say that he (Ryuunosuke) was a nutcase in a lighter way. |
SuiNoByakkoApr 25, 2012 1:51 PM
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| I agree, it's really no fun to pick at details. Still, it's necessary to be a bit more clear and a bit less misleading, particularly if you're posting on the interwebs. I think the problem here is that you never gave particularly good justification for why you hate Kiritsugu so much. He clearly isn't just a "jerk," and you'd have to be really thick to think that he isn't bothered by what he thinks that he has to do. |
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| At the end of the day, both Kiritsugu and Ryuunosuke are madman. Just very different kinds of crazy. One is simply a insane killer who takes pleasure in suffering of others - nasty, but really nothing special. The other one however, has in some twisted way reached a conclusion that it's up to him to 'set the world right' and honestly believes he has the right to redefine what it means to be human. No chivalry, no code of conduct - whatever it takes to achieve that fantasy. Further more, he acknowledges his actions as evil, but still commits them. Much more interesting but also significantly more dangerous nutcase. That said, I can certainly see why people would find Ryuunosuke more sympathetic then Kiritsugu. I, for one, certainly do. In my eyes, someone who honestly believes that his evil deeds are justified since they serve the greater good, is a much less acceptable than someone who commits evil simply for enjoyment, personal gain or without realizing how unacceptable their actions are. |
| Whenever you correct someone's grammar just remember that nobody likes you. |
| Amazing episode. The amount of brutality, cold hearted planning and differing world views, oh man. Felt truly bad about Lancer, for a man of his moral code to go down like that is regretable - but his last words were so filled with bile and hatred that it wouldnt surprise me if he really cursed the grail with his dieing breath. And I actually agree with Kiritsugu's views more than any other character's. War is shit, there is no honor and glory in dieing or spilling blood in someone's name. And much like him, I wouldn't be above trying to fight fire with fire. Desperate times require desperate measures, and you will not break down evil by being soft to it. |
RoNin-87Apr 25, 2012 2:21 PM
Xayoz said: At the end of the day, both Kiritsugu and Ryuunosuke are madman. Just very different kinds of crazy. One is simply a insane killer who takes pleasure in suffering of others - nasty, but really nothing special. The other one however, has in some twisted way reached a conclusion that it's up to him to 'set the world right' and honestly believes he has the right to redefine what it means to be human. No chivalry, no code of conduct - whatever it takes to achieve that fantasy. Further more, he acknowledges his actions as evil, but still commits them. Much more interesting but also significantly more dangerous nutcase. That said, I can certainly see why people would find Ryuunosuke more sympathetic then Kiritsugu. I, for one, certainly do. In my eyes, someone who honestly believes that his evil deeds are justified since they serve the greater good, is a much less acceptable than someone who commits evil simply for enjoyment, personal gain or without realizing how unacceptable their actions are. I don't understand why people think that what Kiritsugu's doing is evil. It might not be honorable or "right," but all he's doing is killing people who have willingly decided to participate in a war where they knew their lives would constantly be at risk. He has not killed anyone innocent for any reason - all of his actions are solely to ensure that he wins the war in a quick and relatively risk-free way. What would be evil is to kill innocent people to lure out his opponents... oh wait, that's what Caster (with Ryuunosuke's total support) did. So you can call Ryuunosuke + Caster evil; I'm fine with that, but Kiritsugu is nowhere close to their level. He might be a sneaky bastard who fights dirty, but he does have standards - not to mention a conscience. |
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HikaruIzumi said: Besides, I was replying to comparing Kiritsugu and Ryuunosuke, not saying that they were the same. Their goals are different but in the end they do the same thing. Same thing being killing right? LunarMoon said: This has already been covered in several preceding posts, once by myself in post 332, and further continued by Shuda, Ataraxial, and Topgunu69. The problem is that they’re not the same at all. Exactly. Kiritsugu has command seals on his hand and he is only killing those with command seals on their hands: Magi. He is involved in a war whether he likes it or not and the only way to end this is to kill or be killed. How does one win the Holy Grail War? To be the last one standing, correct? If he doesn't kill them first, they will attempt to kill him any chance they get. This is a fact. Ryuunosuke killed people before the war, during the war, and would definitely continue even after the war. He didn't differentiate from who he was killing and there was no reason behind it other than satisfaction. Do you think that if Ryuunosuke didn't kill the innocent children/people first, they would come after his life? Hell, they didn't even know he existed until he approached them and they most probably would never know who he was. Sure you can say killing is still killing but what they're doing is not the same thing Ryuunosuke can in no way be compared to Kiritsugu. If you compare them just because they both kill "humans" then you must compare every single character in any anime, movies or games that has killed people in cold blood to each other, regardless of the situation or reason because that is how I'm reading your post. |
ataraxial said: I think the problem here is that you never gave particularly good justification for why you hate Kiritsugu so much. He clearly isn't just a "jerk," and you'd have to be really thick to think that he isn't bothered by what he thinks that he has to do. That wasn't really related to comapring them, just my feelings about him. Actually, I wrote it right afer the episode full of emotions. XD What mostly makes me dislike him is that he talks about world peace and then goes and kills people for that in an extremely cruel way. If he truly believes that's a way how to reach world peace, he is nuts. I also dislike how he treats Saber. Not only he completely ignores her as a human being, and treats her like a tool, he keeps humiliating her all the time. If everyone who wanted world peace would act that way, we would have the exact opposite. I felt bad for Keyneth and much as I didn't like him for his cowardice and the treatment he had for Lancer (that guy was possesed by some sadistic magic lol) and Welvet but when he was willing to throw everythig away for his fianceé while he already lost too much made me feel very bad for him. Just think how difficult it was for him to just live knowing he will never be a mage again. Look at Tokiyomi, for a mage, magic is everything. Keyneth gave up the grail, he could have let him go. He was a broken man with a dying wife-to-be I doubt he would bother him more, he lost way too much. Yet, he still kills him under false assurance of safety. To me, no person can go lower than that. If he at least had the guts to face him in death, or to kill him himself, I would admire him for his strategy. But he doesn't do even that. To me, he feels like a coward who can't even face the death or the pain (avoiding Saber) he is causing. I admired him when he fought Keyneth for he first time. He fought amazingly and all out. But what power does one need to kill a helpless man that lost nearly everything? Yet, he can't even do that. How can he enjoy world peace he could bring when he refuses to acknowledge the pain he brings? |
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| Kiritsugu did criticise himself for not having destroyed that Hotel without setting the fire alarm off first, thought he'd gone soft. If he had gone that far and killed all those civillians just to keep the element of surprise then all this hatred he's suddenly getting would be a lot more justified. As it stands though, to equate his "evil deeds" with Uryuu's is completely ridiculous. |
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-Shuda- said: Ryuunosuke can in no way be compared to Kiritsugu. If you compare them just because they both kill "humans" then you must compare every single character in any anime, movies or games that has killed people in cold blood to each other, regardless of the situation or reason because that is how I'm reading your post. Once again, I was comparing them because of a post by someone else, who said that people thought Ryuunosuke was "better". I compared them at the only thing they had in common and what was the point of the post I was replying to, aka killing. If no one would write that, I wouldn't compare them, I would have no reason. That's it. No deep meaning just trying to say that Ryuunosuke isn't necessarily better because I felt that saying he was better was way off. I won't even bother counting how many times I said it, I wrote it in nearly every post. Actually, as much as I hate Kiritsugu, I'm on his side in this thing. Ryuunosuke kept killing innocent people that had nothing to do with anything. Kiritsugu at least kills those that know they are on the verge of dying. |
SuiNoByakkoApr 25, 2012 2:45 PM
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HikaruIzumi said: That wasn't really related to comapring them, just my feelings about him. Actually, I wrote it right afer the episode full of emotions. XD What mostly makes me dislike him is that he talks about world peace and then goes and kills people for that in an extremely cruel way. If he truly believes that's a way how to reach world peace, he is nuts. I also dislike how he treats Saber. Not only he completely ignores her as a human being, and treats her like a tool, he keeps humiliating her all the time. If everyone who wanted world peace would act that way, we would have the exact opposite. I felt bad for Keyneth and much as I didn't like him for his cowardice and the treatment he had for Lancer (that guy was possesed by some sadistic magic lol) and Welvet but when he was willing to throw everythig away for his fianceé while he already lost too much made me feel very bad for him. Just think how difficult it was for him to just live knowing he will never be a mage again. Look at Tokiyomi, for a mage, magic is everything. Keyneth gave up the grail, he could have let him go. He was a broken man with a dying wife-to-be I doubt he would bother him more, he lost way too much. Yet, he still kills him under false assurance of safety. To me, no person can go lower than that. If he at least had the guts to face him in death, or to kill him himself, I would admire him for his strategy. But he doesn't do even that. To me, he feels like a coward who can't even face the death or the pain (avoiding Saber) he is causing. I admired him when he fought Keyneth for he first time. He fought amazingly and all out. But what power does one need to kill a helpless man that lost nearly everything? Yet, he can't even do that. How can he enjoy world peace he could bring when he refuses to acknowledge the pain he brings? The way he kills is cruel only if, like you said, you think that Kayneth and Sola-Ui would go on happily and never care about Kiritsugu after Kayneth has fulfilled his part of the geis. Unless you have a problem with that part as well - after all, the whole point of Kiritsugu setting it up the way he did is because he didn't want to risk the consequences of Saber fighting Lancer. I think he's very justified in having Kayneth deal with Lancer rather than having Saber fight him. After the battle on the river, Saber is not exactly in top form, and even if she could win against Lancer, it would not be the best tactical situation to have just gone through two major battles in one night. In order to deal with Lancer quickly, Kiritsugu uses the geis, which is an excellent idea, even by itself. Even if you disagree with this since it involves betraying Saber and pissing off Lancer and whatnot, he still has to kill Lancer eventually in order to win... With Lancer gone, Kayneth and Sola-Ui are screwed anyways. They've been screwed from the beginning with their tragic love triangle. I really don't think that Sola-Ui would all of a sudden turn to Kayneth in acceptance after Lancer dies - if anything, she'd blame him for killing him (or letting him die, if we're going with an alternate scenario without the geis). That's not even mentioning that she has still been supplying Lancer with mana even after her seals are cut off, so she could easily make a contract with another servant in order to try to win the Grail in the hopes of wishing Lancer back to life or something silly like that. Ultimately, as a mage who is partaking in the Grail War, Sola-Ui's death is as necessary as Lancer's for Kiritsugu to ensure his victory. With Sola-Ui dead, Kayneth would have very little to live for... except perhaps to take revenge on the person who killed her. This is a much greater threat to Kiritsugu if we're going with using the geis, but either way, Kayneth could still pose a threat to Kiritsugu even in his broken state. Even if he can't use magic, he could still control a servant who has their mana supplied from elsewhere, and he could always resort to other methods to take revenge on Kiritsugu. He might also be motivated (although admittedly less likely) to attempt to acquire the Grail in order to wish Sola-Ui back to life. In the end, there is plenty of danger to leaving any part of Team Irish alive, so Kiritsugu decides to take out all three of them in the most efficient and risk-free way possible. Sure, it's very cheap and a bit cruel, but it's all justified in fighting the war. He's not "mistaken" about the safety he'll get from killing the three of them since it's impossible to reasonably expect any of them to give up peacefully. |
ataraxialApr 25, 2012 3:06 PM
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ataraxial said: Replying. Go ahead, but don't take it personally if i ignore you, I'm tired of this thing and going to bed. I'm not sure if I remember to check the page tomorrow. But I'll try. I'm still new to forums (and anime being totally serious business). lol |
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HikaruIzumi said: -Shuda- said: Ryuunosuke can in no way be compared to Kiritsugu. If you compare them just because they both kill "humans" then you must compare every single character in any anime, movies or games that has killed people in cold blood to each other, regardless of the situation or reason because that is how I'm reading your post. Once again, I was comparing them because of a post by someone else, who said that people thought Ryuunosuke was "better". I compared them at the only thing they had in common and what was the point of the post I was replying to, aka killing. If no one would write that, I wouldn't compare them, I would have no reason. That's it. No deep meaning just trying to say that Ryuunosuke isn't necessarily better because I felt that saying he was better was way off. I won't even bother counting how many times I said it, I wrote it in nearly every post. Actually, as much as I hate Kiritsugu, I'm on his side in this thing. Ryuunosuke kept killing innocent people that had nothing to do with anything. Kiritsugu at least kills those that know they are on the verge of dying. Alright, that sounds acceptable. I was skimming through the forums fast so I must have made a misinterpretation on who brought up the comparison in the first place. Sorry for calling anyone out, just wanted to spread some info and my own point of view while elaborating on others' as well. Every character in the world receives love and hate, it's natural. It's when personal emotion fogs up facts that it gets bothersome. Peace. |
ataraxial said: I don't understand why people think that what Kiritsugu's doing is evil. It might not be honorable or "right," but all he's doing is killing people who have willingly decided to participate in a war where they knew their lives would constantly be at risk. He has not killed anyone innocent for any reason - all of his actions are solely to ensure that he wins the war in a quick and relatively risk-free way. What would be evil is to kill innocent people to lure out his opponents... oh wait, that's what Caster (with Ryuunosuke's total support) did. So you can call Ryuunosuke + Caster evil; I'm fine with that, but Kiritsugu is nowhere close to their level. He might be a sneaky bastard who fights dirty, but he does have standards - not to mention a conscience. Evil is a matter of perspective. Killing you opponents in the grail war is of course expected. In the current case tho, killing Kayneth and Sola who posed no immediate threat while promising them safe passage can certainly be considered 'evil', even if it was a smart move in the long run. That particular matter aside. Kiritsugu is the sort of guy who wold stab his father in the back to save a hundred strangers. Logcial? Yes. Acceptable? Not for me. |
| Whenever you correct someone's grammar just remember that nobody likes you. |
HikaruIzumi said: What mostly makes me dislike him is that he talks about world peace and then goes and kills people for that in an extremely cruel way. If he truly believes that's a way how to reach world peace, he is nuts. I'm sorry, I wasn't aware there is a "nice way" to kill people. Can you educate me on how you kill somene "nicely" in a war? Do you buy them a few beers and have a good campfire chat before you shoot them in the head, or how does this work? The most absurd thing to me was watching the debates between Saber and Lancer in the previous episodes and their knight code. And while Lancer's death was tragic, his and Saber's way of viewing the situation is outdated and naive. |
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