Should 3DCGI be Chasing 2D aesthetics?

Paul said:
They're currently still stuck with visuals like this

Polygon Studio said:
Japanese anime fans and general public have been watching hand-drawn cartoons on TV since decades. How do they react to CG animation?

Per above, there’s been a strong dislike for CG animation. Some of it has to deal with the cultural and artistic background of Japan, where we prefer minimalistic and simple approaches to defining imagery. Some of it, I feel, is mental. A fanboy mentality. CGI essentially is great at simulating real world and physically correct expressions, but expressing the sort of ambiguity that makes hand drawn imagery so attractive is technically very difficult. I think we’ve finally come to a point technically where we can satisfy such appetite.
http://www.furansujinconnection.com/polygon-pictures-english/

Paul said:
They're currently still stuck with visuals like this

Elegade said:


Woah there, you're giving CG anime way too much credit. CG anime looks way worse compared to that.

j0x said:


give it more time, 2.5D animation will improve more and more in the future until it becomes like 2D animation, thats what i believe and how the current animation technology progress goes like this one

Pixar Makes Painterly CG: New Research Could Change The Look of Their Films
http://www.cartoonbrew.com/cgi/pixar-makes-painterly-cg-new-research-could-change-the-look-of-their-films-95205.html

TitanAnteus said:

I don't want 3D to lose its 3Dness though. They can use it to great effect especially in fights imo. That Pixar animation technique is scary btw. You have to do 3D and then draw vector 2D on top of it. Of course since the vector 2d has spacial information from the 3D render there's a lot of shortcuts and it makes the drawing over easier, but it doesn't change the fact that each frame has 3 times more work put into it over regular 3D just because it's passed over like 3 times.

j0x said:


nah you have to remember that this is a rendering technique so its an automated process, and i bet photorealistic rendering needs much more processing power so more money and wasted time are needed for it instead of doing cel-shaded rendering or 2.5D rendering, this artistic painting rendering i bet is still much cheaper and faster to make than what you want with traditional 3DCG rendering or photorealism

Darek said:
The hell? usually your threads are the only place on forums for a proper discussion and get a 100 of replies but this is empty as hell.

TitanAnteus said:




I don't know man... The only CGI anime where the characters don't look that good are the Polygon Pictures guys who did Ajin and Knights of Sidonia.

You watch enough anime and you'll come across talented people who can do stuff like this.


And this.

j0x said:
reminder that anime TV budget is low, so thats why there is no photorealistic TV anime yet right?

and found this on wikipedia on the reason why 2.5D is preferred on cases where budget is cheap/low

The reason for using pseudo-3D instead of "real" 3D computer graphics is that the system that has to simulate a three dimensional-looking graphic is not powerful enough to handle the calculation-intensive routines of 3D computer graphics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2.5D#Technical_aspects_and_generalizations

so ye anime studios cannot afford better computers to render photorealism on the anime TV shows they are working on unless they have a anime movie budget

Elegade said:

I have to agree, that Etotama fight scene looks superb. But Ajin and Sidonia aren't the only bad CGs in anime. Mekaku City Actors had some shitty CG. Kancolle had some shitty CG. The new Berserk had shitty CG. Gate had some shitty CG. It hurts me to say this, but Love Live had shitty CG I'll repent for my sins later Kingdom has shitty CG (Haven't watched it, but have seen videos of it) and that's some where I can remember, but I'm sure there are more.

Elegade said:


Woah there, you're giving CG anime way too much credit. CG anime looks way worse compared to that.

TitanAnteus said:


Eh? But shows like Majestic Prince and Valvrave use some pretty strong 3D.

I feel like that wikipedia article is speaking more on the use of 2.5D in realtime systems like games then rendering times (actually it directly mentions games.) I mean, regular anime have to go through a lot to get their plane old 2D to look nice. Lots of time is used coloring those backgrounds and stuff so they should have time to render at least.

Paul said:


My other example was gonna be this but it felt too long.



There's a 2 year difference and I gotta say, that BRS looks more visually appropriate with itsCGI'd fight scenes and being a TV series versus Expelled from Paradise which is a movie.

Though if you want bad examples, the new Berserk. They even tried to fix some stuff in the BD's and it still looks awful.

Some NSFW stuff (nips and stuff)


@ anyone bringing up FF, the topic is talking about 3DCGI keeping the 2D look, so shows like FF, Harlock and Gantz:0 don't count.

j0x said:


the quality of those photorealistic 3D mecha on Valverave is not that good though and are you sure Majestic Prince 3D mecha is not 2.5D or cel-shaded? here is a example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hEjVKlU_o8

nah 2.5D animation applies to cel-shaded 3DCG that anime studios are using too

Dai Sato began his portion of the talk by stating that its title was “too heavy” for him to discuss so directly. Instead, he gave his thoughts on where he feels the industry is headed via animation itself: that is, towards a more “2.5D look.” 2.5D is an aesthetic that exists between 2D and 3D.
http://yattatachi.com/japanese-animation-post-miyazaki

and yes rendering CGI is not done in real-time obviously but it takes a lot and a lot of processing time that it will take a lot of time and money for powerful hardware, not a lot of anime studios can afford a powerful render farm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_farm

and i think SANZIGEN as well as Polygon Pictures are the only ones that have this powerful render farms or expertise on render farms http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/news/2014/12/5/deadline-software-drives-render-farm-for-polygon-pictures.html

TitanAnteus said:


By finding its own style, I don't mean photorealism. I mean more like that Precure video I already posted.

2.5D animation doesn't mean cel-shaded 3D. It means using 3D in such a way that it appears as 2D and makes the 2D look better.

Most 2.5D animation looks terrible from any angle except from directly in front. Cel-Shaded is just a graphical style that means the lights don't act the way they stereotypically would. Areas are either lit, or unlit and shadows rarely blend in that way.

I know lots of anime studios can't afford a render farm, but I know some can. I'm just wondering why they're trying so hard to make their 3D look like 2D when they can just take the advantages of 3D and get their own style like Disney does.

tr1ckst3r said:
It's easier and cheaper to produce the cel shaded CG (2.5D) so yes I think they should.
Rakuen Tsuiho, Ars Nova and JoJo opening already proves that those kind of CG can actually go pretty far when it comes to visual.

The problem with 3DCG is how expensive it is and how to make it looks good when moving, and after witnessing a few anime with CG, I come to a conclusion that TV anime just don't have enough budget and time to make moving object with 3DCG looks good.

j0x said:


try to read those links i posted especially this one http://yattatachi.com/japanese-animation-post-miyazaki that is where anime industry says 2.5D is related or similar to cel-shaded 3D

and the answer to your question is because like i said cel-shaded or other 2.5D rendering techniques are much cheaper to produce than what you expect, i think you are expecting the rendering quality of anime CGI movies like Final Fantasy Advent Children right? thats why i said photorealistic rendering like that are not achievable by the low budget of anime TV production

TitanAnteus said:

No, I wasn't saying I wanted photorealism. I wanted 3D to have its own style and not chase after 2D.

TitanAnteus said:
So, what makes 3D in anime so unbearable? I personally think it's because 3D in anime is trying way too hard to look "anime."

zeus81 said:
2.5D is only for video games, it means that your game is in 3D but have a 2D gameplay, it's unrelated to cell shading and it makes no sense to call anime like this.
That said there's already some anime in 3D with a very good 2D feel, like currently airing Bubuki Buranki :

zeus81 said:
2.5D is only for video games, it means that your game is in 3D but have a 2D gameplay, it's unrelated to cell shading and it makes no sense to call anime like this.
That said there's already some anime in 3D with a very good 2D feel, like currently airing Bubuki Buranki :

And the upcoming Gantz movie will have a pretty decent hq 3D too :

So they know how to do both well and I don't think it's a problem of money, actually 2D cost more than 3D, but there's a lot of employees in the industry over there and a know-how they probably don't want to lose, it's even supported by the government through the anime mirai/tamago project.

Paul said:

My other example was gonna be this but it felt too long.



There's a 2 year difference and I gotta say, that BRS looks more visually appropriate with itsCGI'd fight scenes and being a TV series versus Expelled from Paradise which is a movie.

Though if you want bad examples, the new Berserk. They even tried to fix some stuff in the BD's and it still looks awful.

Some NSFW stuff (nips and stuff)


@ anyone bringing up FF, the topic is talking about 3DCGI keeping the 2D look, so shows like FF, Harlock and Gantz:0 don't count.

TitanAnteus said:

I'd love to see actual shows with these kinds of visuals. I wonder why it doesn't happen.

loloy said:

No, Expelled from Paradise is better compare to that cheap CG. Don't judge an animation base on your opinion. Maybe you just liked the fight choreography in BRS, that's why it's more appealing to you.

This hand flick alone will give you a clue even if you're a CG illiterate.


And this is the best thing Japan came up with in terms of 2D aesthetics, compare this to any other game or anime, even just the explosions.
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/12350/animated-artist_unknown-cgi-effects-explosions-mec

Expelled from Paradise would've not won an award if it has bad CG animation.

Paul said:

The guy's comment in the skaugabooru link is what I thought of the Expelled from Paradise movie. If anything, special effects such as explosions are one of the only few things CGI has done good with.

ouriel said:
Yes, I think 3D should follow its own style, instead of trying to emulate 2D anime style, tho, most if not all of the studios are using this kind of technique already, in which the anime is made on a 3D plane, but given the look and feel of a 2D plane, and, it's very noticeable from the way the character is animated, the architecture and background architecture and the way the camera moves.

Polygon Studios are probably a nice addition(to the industry) and might be the proxy to a change in the industry of making better CGI movies or shows coming out of Japan. Tho, their use of 2s and 3s for 3D animation is a thing to be critiqued, as it's not really good looking and it feels choppy(or out of place), where it should feel smooth. However, animating on 1s is quite expensive and requires a ton of processing power, for which they might not have the budget for such a render farm.

Tho, I still think it'd be nice if we get a CGI animated on 1s, and, possibly not being a movie. Tho, I wouldn't expect a Tintin quality type of animation, of course. :)

TitanAnteus said:


Hahahaha, well they're definitely copying 2D's time and money saving modular framerates to get that feel.

That feel is a little too important to them though, and I'm curious who's to blame? Is it the fans for hating on it, or is it the studios for not wanting to change.

I mean... just here in this thread, anime like Expelled from Paradise are ragged on even though it won awards for its animation techniques in the professional world.