why are women being so unseen as audience ?

@piroriparopirira also consumed by women. In general all media is meant for women. Men are just forced to live with it. You a little kid watching animay or any media where in reality the only person who will buy animay toys or merch for the little kid is his mommy. Mommy also decides what the little kid will watch and when. People in charge of media make media according to this simple equation. You might ask where's daddy in this equation? Too busy making phone calls and bissniss to care about the little kid so it's mommy's job to buy shit. In general mommy will gatekeep media in the household, daddy should also only watch news channel that are to mommy's taste, so it's gatekept for him as well lmao.
Anyway does that answer ur question?

@TransferUser That's the thing i don't really get though, we here a lot of "there should be more variety in shoujo/josei", but when ones with different styles/narratives do come along they aren't considered proper shoujo/josei 🥲

On that topic, i was wondering, since you say Servanp doesn't quite fit the shoujo/josei narrative, so what about Banana Fish, which is another shoujo that is far from what's typical for the demographic, does fit?

@LenRea I think that all media can please women because humans and media are very diverse but I don't think that all media is meant intentionally for women. Most media is made for a specific demographic to make more money, one great example is FGO. The creator keep making more waifus than husbandos because they think it will make more money (thinking about their male adult players who will buy the merch). The omnipresent fanservice in game, anime etc can please women but moslty aren't made for them. On the other end, one of the most known shows for being made for women is the sitcom Soap. It was airing in 1977 in the daytime (when the men where working and the women were at home) and was not so subtlely promoting soap and claening product. Media are influencial and made toward a specific audience: men, women, boys, girls, children, adults, straights, gays, for people enjoying philosophy, animation, a specific actor etc. But it can also please someone outside of this specific aimed audience.
Regardeless of your view on gender's power and role in a family, I think that on this day on age where internet is so omnipresent, parents don't really have much power toward the contents their kid are watching. Of course the cultural baggage of the parents isn't inexistant but media consumed on the internet doesn't really revolves around the parents decisions.
While I understand what point your making, I don't understand the connection it has with your original comment stating that only "real" women watch/read shounen and seinen (and that they're acting as men on the internet). My original comment meant to ask who did you think read/watch shoujo and josei if you though that "real" women didn't. And what do you consider a "real" woman ? If you say that all media is meant for women, then why do you state that "real" women don't watch specifics demographic named after themselves and so aimed specifically toward them(idk if that's clear, my english isn't the best) ?

@piroriparopirira Yeah don't think too hard about my posts. They're usually satirical. I guess what I meant by "real" women was the average woman bcuz I'm pretty sure most women like mainstream shounen anime just like men do. For example I'm pretty sure Attack on Titan or One Piece have a large female fanbase that's why they're so successful.

@DigiCat

To be fair, I never said there should be more variety in shoujo/josei. I don't even like the genre. I like aggregating, processing and presenting information, which is what motivated me to make the list. It was in response to a discussion where people agreed that they cannot agree on what shoujo/josei even is and I felt like I had a fairly good grasp on that, so I made a list putting that to the test.

Still think I got a decent grasp on the concept, but compiling the list I already noticed that there are a bunch of edge cases where it could go either way. The more I think about Servamp, the more I feel it could go either way, too.

Banana Fish is part of my list, if that was the question.

@TransferUser Wasn't saying you said so specifically, but it is something i've heard thown around often, only to then hear it fllowed by something like "it's shounen disguised as shoujo" things like that

The question was what makes Banana Fish fit in the list unlike Servamp?

@DigiCat

Banana Fish feels like it is for women. Servamp didn't give me that vibe. Though, it might very well be.
I essentially took a glance at every anime in existence between 1960 and 2019 and decided whether it should go on the list or not. If I didn't feel confident I didn't put it on the list and moved on.

But like I said, the longer I look at Servamp the more it feels like shoujo.

Uh... what the hell happened to this thread?

Well, it's not like there are not much shoujo or josei shows. There's an increasing trend in both absolute and relative numbers of such anime released in each decade, just as @TransferUser noticed earlier.

However, I wouldn't expect them to become nearly as popular as works belonging to the shounen demographic, or isekai animated series. There are two simply reasons of it: popularity and money. More fans of all genders prefer shounen and isekai series, on which they invest their time and attention, and thus more fans want to spend their money on merchandise of all sorts (physical releases, figurines, video games, etc.).

A lot of women, not to say most of them (I don't have any source to back up this info, so don't quote me on that and treat it just as a loose thought), prefer shounen series to shoujo or josei. Look how many women are actively watching, say, popular shounen series like MHA, JJK, or KnY, discussing the plot and characters of those shows, shipping characters, drawing or writing their own fanmade works.

That's why I wouldn't say that women are unseen by the industry. Some anime of specified types are just more niche than others, that's all. And with many women not picking shoujo and josei, you can blame general population of women themselves for not appealing to your individual preferences. Claiming that there is one absolute type of women audience in anything, not only anime, is unfair and can be considered misogynistic.

@Purple_Gh0st24 Common situation on MAL. Instead of discussing something in a polite way and focusing on the topic, some users (let's call their behavior as "politicalmaxxing") prefer to derail the thread with inserting their political beliefs that sometimes don't even have anything to do with the discussed topic.

I saw once a chilled discussion during which one user mentioned "left and right" phrase, in a totally NOT political context, referring, if I remember correctly, to one or another anime, or shared image (I can't recall the situation in details, but it was totally not a political post). You didn't have to wait long for someone to start babbling about left-wing and right-wing stuff. xD

Uh... what the hell happened to this thread?

@MFDOOMED

1) G-Witch (part of Gundam series) is not automatically a shoujo just cuz it has a female lead

2) I don't know what Kubo's writing style is like as i've yet to watch Bleach (maybe it is reminniscent of shoujo romance) but having a romantic sub-plot alone does not automatically = shoujo

3) Migi to Dali and Blue Exorcist, what feminine spin?

Both DigiCat and I have pointed out that TransferUser provided a subjective list based around stereotypes. It's not good for anything except his own personal use.

Because there are more males watching anime so more is made to target that demographic. Though, it is a bit of a self-reinforcing cycle.

There's certainly hunger for series that target a broader demographic, as shown by the success of Frieren, Apothecary Diaries, etc.

I don't think the protagonist screams shoujo.




This screams shoujo:

@sadoldman Well, akshually, if we want to be total purists, then Sousou no Frieren is a shounen series, and Kusuriya no Hitorigoto is a seinen story. ;P So two of them are targeting a male audience first, even if their stories are nice enough to satisfy viewers that do not belong to their respective demographics. I agree they are popular among various types of viewers, but if we're talking about shoujo and josei demographics, then nope, neither the former nor the latter falls under any of those categories.

It looks and feels the part.



Not sure what kind of explanation you are looking for.



According to feedback I had to add dozens of entries to my list, while there were less than a handful disputed entries.
The point that there are more anime for women in both absolute and relative numbers stands.

It's not like anyone else provided any data suggesting that there are less anime for women.



It doesn't look like typical shoujo character design. Haven't watched the show or read the synopsis, so can't comment on that.
Also, I've repeatedly mentioned that the more I look at it the more it looks like shoujo. When creating the list I only had a few seconds per anime to decide, so there are likely many titles I've missed.




I added it to the list. Thanks for your and everyone else's feedback.


Here's the updated list:



Updated statistic:

1960s - ~5 aimed at women out of around 200 titles - 2.50%
1970s - ~15 aimed at women out of around 400 titles - 3.75%
1980s - ~50 aimed at women out of around 1100 titles - 4.54%
1990s - ~100 aimed at women out of around 1800 titles - 5.55%
2000s - ~200 aimed at women out of around 3500 titles - 5.71%
2010s - ~500 anime aimed at women out of around 6300 titles - 7.9%

@TransferUser Those stats are genuinely fascinating. Thank you for taking the time to make this list.

@DigiCat It's a really long reply. My bad.
1. G Witch is most decidedly not shoujo. But seeing as it is heavily based on one of THE defining shoujo of anime made me seek out the source material. Which like many of the best shoujo is much better than any anime in any kind of genre. I don't think I could have really appreciated all Utena does if I watched it as a kid, so it worked out pretty well for me.

2. I didn't say Bleach is a shoujo. I said it ripped off successful shoujo elements to draw in a bigger female audience. It's sorta how Naruto did a subtle BL thing with Naruto and Sasuke to get more fans but Bleach did it on much higher level. Or perhaps to a much greater effect. All these shojo anime I watched combined with my increased understanding about the things women care about in real life and anime made me reconsider what made the Ichigo and Rukia relationship so compelling.

I did some research into Tite Kubo and his take on shojo, but since he keeps his inspirations close to the vest, it was hard to get official confirmation. But if you ever get around to watching the first three seasons of Bleach, you will see all the stuff that Tite Kubo put in there for the ladies to catch and appreciate that goes over the heads of most guys. Like myself when I was a kid. There is also an excellent youtube video by a woman about the feminine gaze as it pertains to Bleach, but I don't see the point in posting a video no one will watch.

3. Yukio and Rin are examples of what women want shonen heroes to be. In this case it strips out more of the hot blooded, single minded nature of most MC's and replaces it with a more complex and nuanced view of themselves, their place in the world, and their responsibilities in the world. Very similar to the way most women naturally view the world. This info is a kinda "if you know, you know" deal.

Before I figured out what time ladies were on, all that stuff I said woulda went in one ear and out the other. In another sense, it's kinda like telling someone "if you don't dress for the cold, you're gonna get sick and end up in the hospital." Some people figure out they need to change after the first hospital visit. Others become frequent fliers because they want to do things their way. So if you don't get or agree with the stuff I'm saying, more power to you.

Tangent aside, I'm impressed you know about Migi to Dali. That anime was incredible. When guys write manga, they tend to make characters in the same cardboard cutout. Some of them like Gon Freecs have a bunch of subtle layers you gotta pay attention for so their big changes in character aren't a surprise. But most of them fall into a Naruto type of deal. I the MC have 1 to 5 big, big, goals and I will either achieve them or die trying. I don't care about the little stuff, the day to day things, or even what the future holds on a micro level. I just gotta succeed at this thing in front of me.

Compare that to Edward Elric from FMA. His goals are personal and fairly small in scope, especially after you see how much is going on in the FMA universe and the other things the Elric Brothers get into. He thinks about little things. He doesn't have a harem. He actually really thinks about the stuff going on in the world, with a more compassionate approach as opposed to the cold, detached manner most of us guys use when we look at bigger and smaller picture stuff. Edward Elric is like a counter point to shonen characters in so many ways.

So is Tanjiro in Demon Slayer. Migi and Dali from their anime. Alibaba Saluja in Magi. Also Rin and Yukio. That's not to count out characters directly inspired by the feminine point of view of how male characters can be written. More recently, Izuku Midoriya in MHA and Yuji Sakai in Shakugan no Shana's first two seasons. I haven't finished the third season yet, but so far he is already acting more like a typically written male protagonist than he ever was before.

I could keep going. Albert de Morcerf from Gankutsuou. Louis and Legoshi from Beastars. THE Ginga Bishounen and Sugata from Star Driver. Keitarou Gentouga from Dark Gathering. Van Fanel and Allen Schezar from The Vision of Escaflowne. I got more names and anime, but this post is long enough. The male characters that weren't outright written by women were heavily, Heavily, inspired by women writers.

I don't subscribe to the idea that we men are simple creatures. We are smarter and more nuanced than women and others give us credit for. However, there are ideals with strong polarities that the majority of us men (and boys) gravitate to. Those ideals end up baked into the typical Shonen and seinen anime and manga because they speak to us. Those ideals are awesome, so they speak to some women too. Those women just add the feminine perspective and spice to those ideals before throwing those ideals out into the world.

There is an anime airing right now called Mecha-Ude: Mechanical Arms. If you want an example of what happens when the feminine perspective detracts from storytelling, give that anime a watch. If that anime gets better after the first two episodes, I still stand on the fact the first two episodes were a failure in more ways than one.

It looks and feels the part.



Not sure what kind of explanation you are looking for.



According to feedback I had to add dozens of entries to my list, while there were less than a handful disputed entries.
The point that there are more anime for women in both absolute and relative numbers stands.

It's not like anyone else provided any data suggesting that there are less anime for women.



It doesn't look like typical shoujo character design. Haven't watched the show or read the synopsis, so can't comment on that.
Also, I've repeatedly mentioned that the more I look at it the more it looks like shoujo. When creating the list I only had a few seconds per anime to decide, so there are likely many titles I've missed.




I added it to the list. Thanks for your and everyone else's feedback.


Here's the updated list:



Updated statistic:

1960s - ~5 aimed at women out of around 200 titles - 2.50%
1970s - ~15 aimed at women out of around 400 titles - 3.75%
1980s - ~50 aimed at women out of around 1100 titles - 4.54%
1990s - ~100 aimed at women out of around 1800 titles - 5.55%
2000s - ~200 aimed at women out of around 3500 titles - 5.71%
2010s - ~500 anime aimed at women out of around 6300 titles - 7.9%

@Lucifrost I saw that list, yes. I also noticed it lacked some shoujo or mahou shoujo titles, mostly older anime. However, the numbers, even if they were off a little, showed an increasing trend of a type of anime that can be called "anime for women". As for subjectivity, it couldn't be helped. The original post in this thread presents decent dose of subjectivism regarding the anime industry. What's more, without well-established definition of "anime for women", many of us can and actually do create their own vision of what kind of anime would be eligible to be called like such. I wouldn't be surprised if someone marked JJK as somewhat "anime for women", even though its official and base demographic is shounen. After all, it's fairly popular among fujoshi. If we are to exclude such shows, then the question is: what exactly "anime for women" is? What are requirements to call any anime like that, and which shows cannot be included on the list? The easiest way would be to just focus on shoujo and josei demographics, but as we could already notice in this thread, it ain't that simple.

@LadyMarble

If you exclude Hentai (around 1600 titles) the percentages don't stagnate after the 1990s, either.
First Hentai is from 1984, but their amount makes no difference until the 2000s:

Without Hentai in the list of total titles:

1960s - ~5 aimed at women out of around 200 titles - 2.50%
1970s - ~15 aimed at women out of around 400 titles - 3.75%
1980s - ~50 aimed at women out of around 1100 titles - 4.54%
1990s - ~100 aimed at women out of around 1800 titles - 5.55%
2000s - ~200 aimed at women out of around 3100 titles - 6.45% (instead of 5.71%)
2010s - ~500 anime aimed at women out of around 5700 titles - 8.77% (instead of 7.9%)

@TransferUser I think the problem with those stats is the "aimed at" assumption based on the "demographic" assigned from MAL, etc. Many that may be listed as targeting a male demographic could very well be targeting a much broader audience than that, and have in fact been accepted by a very diverse audience. On the flip side, I'd hazard a guess that a higher number of titles that are assumed to be "aimed at women" are less likely to have as broad of acceptance, even in the demographic we're assuming they target.

@sadoldman Not really i think

Just because you make something with a target audience in mind doesn't mean it won't appeal to a broader audience

Sure there are storytelling styles that are more neutral, but i don't see being aimed at a certain demographic as a bad thing, on the contrary, many times the reason people outside of a said demographic like the stuff from it is because of elements that are typical of shows from the said demographic

When people try to please too many different demographics at once, a lot of times you get the opposit effect pleasing no one, as seen many times in modern western media

This isn't rocket science. If an anime is marketed towards either the shoujo or josei demographic, it is for women. Practically every woman likes shounen and seinen too, but neither of those are for women. People in this thread also seem to have the silly idea that something is for women if it's in the romance genre... you do know men like romance too, yes? There are shounen romance and seinen romance just as there are shoujo romance and josei romance. Shounen romance feels very different to shoujo romance, so it's clearly not for the same audience. And there are plenty of shoujo/josei which are not romance. Not all shoujo are romance and not all shounen are battle shounen. A show is still "for women" if every woman hates it, as long as it is marketed towards the shoujo/josei demographic. Likewise, a shounen/seinen show is not "for women" even if every woman loves it. This really is not hard to grasp.

Where's your proof? I'm not saying it DOESN'T target that demographic, but you're going to need evidence to support your claim when the series is popular among other demographics too.

@Lucifrost Kusuriya no Hitorigoto has two ongoing manga all based on the original novel by Natsu Hyuuga. Both are published in seinen magazines. Manga illustrated by Minoji Kurata is published in Monthly Sunday Gene-X, and the one illustrated by Nekokurage is published in Monthly Big Gangan. As far as I know, only manga have been labeled with the terms we are talking about, so if anime is fairly faithful to those manga adaptations, then it's safe to assume it can also be labeled as seinen. It doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed by anyone other than young adult men. But if we want to be precise and make assumptions, that's how it is in this context.

No, that's not a good idea. If something is published in, let's say a shoujo magazine, then why would anyone demand proofs of it not belonging to the shounen demographics? It's like demanding evidences that porn movies aren't dedicated to adults, because there is relatively big amount of non-adults who, from various reasons, watch them regularly. ;P

@sadoldman for the second scenario there are "shoujo for male otaku" like utena and the majou shoujo genre has pretty much always been for older men not to mention yuri being for male audiences.

@DigiCat With manga the target audience is slightly more clear based on how it's published, though even then there is a fair amount of crossover when it comes to Shounen. With anime, it's not as clear, even if sites like MAL over-simplify it by just having it inherit the implied demographic of the source material.

Using the popular Frieren as an example again, while the manga was published Shounen, the anime was marketed to a much wider audience in Japan when it was released -- and given its time slot, it wasn't targeting a younger audiance. So, sure, call it Shounen, but it's basically meaningless at that point. The same applies to many other titles. How it's written and marketed matters more than the arbitrary demographic label applied to it on MAL.

@sadoldman Yes, Frieren's anime was marketed to a wider audience, but did you consider that the reason for this is probably because the manga gained popularity among a wider audiene than it's demographic?

It's normal to evolve marketing strategies based on how your product is doing among various different audiences, but there is a difference between adapting your marketing to gain a bigger audience and changing the original demographic of said product, there is in fact no need for the latter because, like i mentioned before, the people who aren't the target audience who are reading/watching it is because they like it for what it is

Frieren is a shounen, yes it has it's own unique style, yes it puts it's own spin on things, yes it's beloved by so many more than just it's target demographic, but it is still a shounen, it still has classic shounen elements in things like it's action sequences and it's humor

It is also far from the only shounen to air at a later time slot, 12-13yo might not stay up all night to catch an anime (might being the key word, i've been doing so since i was 10), but most 16-17yo do

It also has some classic elements from Shoujo/Josei, like its exploration of interpersonal relationships.

@MFDOOMED G-Witch is NOT a shoujo and the brand of shoujo (male safe) it's based on is the same as saying Haikyuu is shounen whereby 90% of the fanbase for it are women and with Gundam it's one of the few remaining Japanese propeties to be comically male dominated audience wise.

You're also looking way too deep into the whole "feminine writing" thing which means you must be a male and don't understand that women are a market for profitiablity just like men and there are certain ways to write characters such as the bishounen you mentioned that directly pander to them while maintaining a shounen framework.
And with modern shounen and Japanese birthrates there is a larger need to EXPAND the net of who you appeal to (which was always the case btw even with older shounen who tried to appeal to the 5 year old boy main demographic as well as secondary ones like 14 year old girls, housewives, and 40 year old nostalgic salarymen: one piece for example) which means character merch for niche female audiences who spend a lot.

@MFDOOMED No worries 😂

With Bleach i wasn't saying it is a shoujo, i was referring to the statement of it "dropping a shoujo romance right in the middle", like i said, i haven't watched Bleach yet so i'm not sure of the writing style, but what i was saying is that not all romance is automatically shoujo romance

I'd also not attribute the popularity of an action anime to it's romantic elements that happen inbetween the main plot, sure it can help reach an even wider audience, but the vast majority of the audience of a battle shounen (be it guys or girls) are watching it for the action/adventure elements first and formost, and if they also happen to be into romance then that is a bonus

I also wouldn't call an accidental kiss (Naruto) subtle BL, especially given their reaction to said kiss and future interactions giving zero hints of romantic interest


Thing is though, most shounen MC's aren't the hot blooded single minded nature characters many who aren't into said shows perceive them to be, and even with the more hot blooded ones, there is still neuance and complexity behind them, as proven by the many examples you yourself give of shounen/seinen MCs who are so much more than "i need to reach my big goal" (and you even had more to add)

To that list i'd also add Senkuu (Dr. Stone), Kiyo (Zatch Bell), Yato (Noragami), Dororo and Hyakkimaru (Dororo), Soul (Soul Eater), Frieren (Souso no Frieren), Loid (Spy x Family), Takemichi, Mikey and Draken (Tokyo Revengers), Lelouch (Code Geass), Sosuke and Kaname (Full Metal Panic)

And on the seinen side Aqua and Ruby (Oshi no Ko), Guts (Berserk), Hachimaki (Planetes), Mario (Rainbow), Thorfinn (Vinland Saga), Okarin (Steins;Gate), Mao Mao and Jinshi (Apothecary Diaries)

I don't distinguish between male and female MCs as there are also female shounen MCs who do fall in that single minded i need to reach my big goal trope, such as Lina from Slayers

Like i said in a previous post here, shounen/seinen tend to be more subtle than shoujo/josei in how they showcase such neuances in character, which can go over people's heads if that's not an aspect of the show you're paying attention to

Yes Migi to Dali was great :D i'm acyually really into psychological/mystery anime so it was only a matter of time before i picked this one up


As for this, i wouldn't generalize flat character writing with the Mangaka/LN writer's gender, in a medium as vast as animanga we're bound to have those that are geratly written and those that are not, this regardless of who's wtiring them

Of course there's going to be things like Isekai wa Smartphone and Majo to Yajuu (cardboard cutout writing by men), but there's also going to be things like 7 Seeds and Uta no Prince-sama (cardboard cutout writing by women)

I've actually been quite curious about Mecha-ude but have yet to check it out as have been pretty busy lately (just imagine me typing this over 4 hours inbetween cleaning the house, feeding the cats, and packing for vacation haha)

@Purple_Gh0st24 I agree with your post and even without further explanation, this quote could be enough to sum everything up and answer the question. Sadly, reality is different. Many people discussing in this thread seem to like labels, and when labels don't fit their image of something, they just make up definitions and fill them with gender stereotypes, as if they had decisive role in modern world to determine the demographic. They have their role, it's not insignificant, but it's not the final argument.

Indeed. Shoujo/shounen and josei/seinen are just demographics. Target, dedicated audiences of specified gender and age. Genres are secondary in this context.

And there are romance series oriented more towards men than women (like Ore Monogatari), or series that are filled with classic shounen action that will surely attract a lot of women (like Claymore).

Apparently, many anime fans follow misconceptions of treating the terms of "demographic" and "genre" interchangeably. It is of course wrong, since they're not the same, but I think that's the reason why quite often you can see a discussion about anime on the Internet, during which folks argue whether certain demographic is a better genre (lol) than another.

@sadoldman I'm sorry to say, but exploration of interpersonal relationships is not exclusive to shoujo/josei

There are certain writing styles for the exploration of said interpersonal relationships that are classics of shoujo/josei shows, it might also be a theme more commonly used in shoujo/josei shows, but the theme itself is not a defining factor of the demographics and it most definitely has been used in shounen/seinen before

By that logic Precure is a battle shounen then, cuz it has big fight scenes and explosions, yet it is obviously not, it might share some similarities with shounen action sequences visually, but shoujo action sequences are still structured quite differently, the same can be said when tackling any other theme across different demographics

Reason why i said "classic shounen elements in it's action sequences" and not "action sequences that are classic shounen elements"