Hibike! Euphonium 3 Episode 12 Discussion

The funny thing is that most people didn't understand that Reina knew who she chose...

The people who say that they liked this development and that they like to see others hurt because of it... did not understand either.
It's not just a "solo", but a duet... and they should have emphasized that music is not only technical and that the feeling of both for playing together was felt in their instruments.

And if Kumiko becomes a teacher... it only confirms my theory that 80% of music teachers are frustrated musicians XD.

The problem isn’t how they changed the ending, but how forced it feels.

First of all Kumiko and Mayu were supposed to be equal in ability, occasionally one is better than the other but in the end their plays do come out to be so close that Taki couldn’t decide and the votes literally tied before Reina. That is a fact.
Then why did Reina pick Mayu over Kumiko? According to Kumiko it’s because she let her hesitation show for a bit in her play. Yeah that makes sense because our Reina is always direct and unwavering in her belief that only the best should play, great characterization.

The problem is Kumiko’s hesitation.
The sources of her hesitation were three: first the concert band members, second her own future, third Mayu. The first problem was due to the executives decision to make auditions happen multiple times and the first years feeling pressured. This was resolved when Kumiko gave the speech at Kansai competition which reassured and united everyone. The second problem was Kumiko feeling conflicted about her future, similar to Mizore and Nozomi in Liz and the blue bird. This was resolved in the last episode where she realized that neither music nor herself is meant for each other, and brought it up to Reina. The third one was seen revealed in this episode, where Kumiko acknowledged that she feared losing to Mayu because Mayu is such a strong player. This was resolved when Mayu opened up for the first time and Kumiko apologizing for neglecting Mayu’s calls for help.

So why did Kumiko hesitate again? Well she shouldn’t! Because in the novel she had everything worked out right before the audition, there isn’t even a blind audition, she won the first one!
Originally, these three sources of anxiety were what caused Kumiko to lose the Kansai Soli, but in the span of 3 episodes we all witnessed her maturing and solving these problems one by one. It was self discovery, courageous face down, a step to conquer one’s biggest fears that was supposed to result in success but apparently didn't because after all these feelings and experience she’s still hesitating :,) if that isn’t forced plot I don’t know what is.

I’m not calling the plot change bad, in fact I really appreciated the bittersweet ending and think the anime’s production was no short of extraordinary. But if you’re altering the literal ending of an anime of this size, you gotta change things down the line to at least make it reasonable and fitting with the given premise.

For example, show more perspective on Mayu. Remember, they are equal in ability. If all we’ve been shown is Kumiko’s hard work and growth, how do you expect us to just accept that after all this improvement Kumiko is still worse? At least show some parts of Mayu’s personal growth so we know it’s a fair battle between two maturing individuals?

Also, if Kumiko still has unresolved problems, at least give some signs. In the Kansai audition, we can clearly see that the atmosphere at the club is extremely tense, Kumiko has reservations against Mayu, and Reina warned her that she’s been called out more by Taki. But for this? Heck Kumiko is the one to reach out and open up with Mayu, and you’re telling me she is actually feeling lost at heart still about not going to a music university?

Well, guess we will find out how well ep 12 fixes some of these plot holes.

Absolutely. But while I understand people having an emotional reaction and being upset, I am a little disappointed in how people call it "garbage" , etc.

Look, I have my criticisms. One of my biggest is that the pacing of this season is all off. The could have doubled the number of episodes, and it would have been much more in line with what we'd expect out of KyoAni. I also don't really like how they basically shoved the plot around to get where they wanted and went for maximum drama, even when it actually kind of took you out of the story a bit. I don't think it's perfect.

But "garbage" is really harsh. There's a reason this anime is really loved, and a reason why it causes such an intense emotional reaction, and that's because it really is a good story and a good anime. They made characters that you grow to respect, admire, and even in some ways love. You're invested in them so much that when they're "screwed over" you can't help but have an emotional reaction. But that in itself makes it not garbage. That makes it awesome. And I wish at the very least people could pull back enough from their emotional reactions to see how much their emotional reaction itself belies the idea that it's "garbage".

Kumiko, Reina, etc., will always be in our hearts. And for fictional characters that have nothing to do with real life, well... that's why I love anime, even though there's so much out there that actually *is* garbage. Some that I just think is, and some that is pretty much, objectively, garbage. There's no way this qualifies as that.

I watched the series with two people, one of whom understood it and the other didn't...

And I don't think you understood my comment very well either because of your response, or I don't understand what you're trying to tell me.
I mean, don't see that it has anything to do with my comment...

@lycoping, for example, made a comment regarding one of my points in the post and it seems like a valid answer to me (I still have my opinion, but that's the eternal debate for music XD).

The problem isn’t how they changed the ending, but how forced it feels.

First of all Kumiko and Mayu were supposed to be equal in ability, occasionally one is better than the other but in the end their plays do come out to be so close that Taki couldn’t decide and the votes literally tied before Reina. That is a fact.
Then why did Reina pick Mayu over Kumiko? According to Kumiko it’s because she let her hesitation show for a bit in her play. Yeah that makes sense because our Reina is always direct and unwavering in her belief that only the best should play, great characterization.

The problem is Kumiko’s hesitation.
The sources of her hesitation were three: first the concert band members, second her own future, third Mayu. The first problem was due to the executives decision to make auditions happen multiple times and the first years feeling pressured. This was resolved when Kumiko gave the speech at Kansai competition which reassured and united everyone. The second problem was Kumiko feeling conflicted about her future, similar to Mizore and Nozomi in Liz and the blue bird. This was resolved in the last episode where she realized that neither music nor herself is meant for each other, and brought it up to Reina. The third one was seen revealed in this episode, where Kumiko acknowledged that she feared losing to Mayu because Mayu is such a strong player. This was resolved when Mayu opened up for the first time and Kumiko apologizing for neglecting Mayu’s calls for help.

So why did Kumiko hesitate again? Well she shouldn’t! Because in the novel she had everything worked out right before the audition, there isn’t even a blind audition, she won the first one!
Originally, these three sources of anxiety were what caused Kumiko to lose the Kansai Soli, but in the span of 3 episodes we all witnessed her maturing and solving these problems one by one. It was self discovery, courageous face down, a step to conquer one’s biggest fears that was supposed to result in success but apparently didn't because after all these feelings and experience she’s still hesitating :,) if that isn’t forced plot I don’t know what is.

I’m not calling the plot change bad, in fact I really appreciated the bittersweet ending and think the anime’s production was no short of extraordinary. But if you’re altering the literal ending of an anime of this size, you gotta change things down the line to at least make it reasonable and fitting with the given premise.

For example, show more perspective on Mayu. Remember, they are equal in ability. If all we’ve been shown is Kumiko’s hard work and growth, how do you expect us to just accept that after all this improvement Kumiko is still worse? At least show some parts of Mayu’s personal growth so we know it’s a fair battle between two maturing individuals?

Also, if Kumiko still has unresolved problems, at least give some signs. In the Kansai audition, we can clearly see that the atmosphere at the club is extremely tense, Kumiko has reservations against Mayu, and Reina warned her that she’s been called out more by Taki. But for this? Heck Kumiko is the one to reach out and open up with Mayu, and you’re telling me she is actually feeling lost at heart still about not going to a music university?

Well, guess we will find out how well ep 12 fixes some of these plot holes.

To all commenting about peak cinema, drama, how realistic it is etc.
Why not push it further? How would you feel if Kitauji actually won't win gold in nationals? Surely that would be realistic given how much tension was in the club during the year, right?
3 seasons, all build-up - all just to stay that's life it happens. At least we enjoyed nice character development, right?
For me this drama ends here, I am not interested in the finale anymore.

Natsukashii...

I don't ever engage in discussions here, but I have to throw in my two bits after watching this episode. Beautifully done, wonderful drama, peak tension, and oh my goodness did the emotion hit me like a freight train with all the bittersweet. My time in concert band was nothing quite like this but it still makes me remember those days fondly. The real story here isn't the music or the fight for winning Gold at the nationals. Those are all just the vehicles for the real story, which is watching these characters grow up into adults and choosing what type of adult they want to be. Taki-sensei asking Kumiko what type of grown-up she wanted to be was the crux of this episode and, honestly, the entire season, if not the series. Even through the pain of losing out on playing the soli she was committed to sticking to her ideals. Kumiko has grown into a fine person. I'm looking forward to the next episode.

I wonder if by before the nationals Mayu gets run over by a truck…. Its not like I want her to die, just incapacitated up until the nationals after Kumiko gets done playing the soli. Or if Mayu does get to play I friggin hope they get bronze, I have never wanted the main cast to lose this much in my life lol. KyoAni didnt pull this change from the OG for realism, they did this for more drama, Kumiko winning wont be good drama which is Hibike’s main driving point. Look how they all got us riled up.

@-Stray haha so I was not the only quietly hoping for the truck 😂

did not expect this but a very important point of the episode. can't even imagine how hard it was for both reina and kumiko. so nasty to make it come down to reina's vote.

also anyone catch what kumiko's doing after school? is it going to be music afterall?

Now I couldn't care less about the nationals, nobody wants to see a soli between reina and an npc animated, i wouldn't be surprised if they don't even animate it, heck, I don't even want to watch the whole performance, it means nothing. I don't even care if they win the gold, i hope they don't even get bronze.

Most likely we'll get a time skip in the next episode and forget this season exists.

I could accept Mayu winning (after a lot of grieving) if the situation made sense like Taki just choosing her. I am not a professional musician, but I competed in solo and ensemble competition throughout grade school. I know it is subjective, but after my first listen to the two soli, the second one sounded better - tone, dynamics, vibrato, phrasing... and mainly sounding like a duet vs accompaniment. I decided in one listen because the band members had to decide in one listen.

Throughout the season, Mayu and Kumiko are described as equals except that Reina mentions that Mayu has the sound they are looking for. That’s why I don’t understand when people mention that Mayu is better than Kumiko. Taki couldn’t choose, the ensemble barely chose one over the other. Mayu mentioned that she is honest with her music, so we know she is giving her all and still ending up neck and neck with Kumiko, who admits hasn’t being playing her best. Mayu keeps saying she can give up the solo and just wants to play in the ensemble, which I bet is something she could do if she asked Taki in private. Thus, she can audition and give it her all to be a member of the ensemble but even if she is better than Kumiko, she would pass on the soli without anyone knowing. Problem solved.

But all that aside, just getting to the point where you need to have a blind audition where the students vote is absurd.

Taki is the teacher and is trained in music so should have a good judgement of who would better fit. Both Kumiko and Mayu have rehearsed and played in competition the soli so Taki would know how each would sound with the group. Taki has also been Kumiko's teacher for the past 3 years, so he should know her tendencies and play style and if it matched the sound he wants. As the conductor, he stands in front of the band with all their sounds coming straight at him, so he has the best idea of whose sound matches instead of someone in the ensemble sitting off to the side or behind - I sat in front of trumpets and all I heard was trumpets blasting into my ears most of the time. It should have been Taki who chose not just because it is his job, but he has the most information about each player and the group as a whole. This would be the more realistic.

If their goal is gold and it is merit based, then why have a vote? Several of the students are beginners or not as knowledgeable to know what would make a gold-winning sound. I get the purpose was to not create turmoil again and fix Mayu/Kumiko's relationship, but what if that backfired too? What if one got all the votes and the other got none and they just quit because of embarrassment? What if Mayu still won, but since half the ensemble voted from Kumiko, they are still dissatisfied with the results? Why take the chance to create a new mess?

Finally, what precedence does this set going forward? The first and second years may continue to be in the band under Taki but now without Kumiko as president. So, if they disagree with his judgement again, do they just cause discord and it goes back to students voting - he's done it before. He has not repaired the ensemble's confidence in him as their leader.

I think after Kumiko's speech in the second competition plus them moving on to nationals, the ensemble would accept Mayu being chosen again by Taki even if they still did not like it. There was no reason to rehash the same drama or create an audition similar to what happened in Season 1. I get that it creates drama and hits you in the feels, but the whole situation even happening is far fetch and feels forced especially it ending in 50/50 with Reina being the deciding vote.

If they kept the original results, everyone would just accept the show as overall great show. But with the change, a portion of the viewers still think it is great, but then another portion now dislike it (mainly just Season 3). Besides the adding drama, my Japanese friend in Japan mentioned that maybe they did this to cause this discord and get people talking about the series. That will bring more people to the series and in turn more money.

Lol, they just had to go and make another big change from the novels and fuck this all up.

So fucking stupid and all in the name of showcasing "realism"

A GOAT show only to be letdown by the writers deciding to go anime original

@watsym I rather doubt the author could have said "nope"you script it the way the source canon material is or else!.

imagine they get bronze

I could accept Mayu winning (after a lot of grieving) if the situation made sense like Taki just choosing her. I am not a professional musician, but I competed in solo and ensemble competition throughout grade school. I know it is subjective, but after my first listen to the two soli, the second one sounded better - tone, dynamics, vibrato, phrasing... and mainly sounding like a duet vs accompaniment. I decided in one listen because the band members had to decide in one listen.

Throughout the season, Mayu and Kumiko are described as equals except that Reina mentions that Mayu has the sound they are looking for. That’s why I don’t understand when people mention that Mayu is better than Kumiko. Taki couldn’t choose, the ensemble barely chose one over the other. Mayu mentioned that she is honest with her music, so we know she is giving her all and still ending up neck and neck with Kumiko, who admits hasn’t being playing her best. Mayu keeps saying she can give up the solo and just wants to play in the ensemble, which I bet is something she could do if she asked Taki in private. Thus, she can audition and give it her all to be a member of the ensemble but even if she is better than Kumiko, she would pass on the soli without anyone knowing. Problem solved.

But all that aside, just getting to the point where you need to have a blind audition where the students vote is absurd.

Taki is the teacher and is trained in music so should have a good judgement of who would better fit. Both Kumiko and Mayu have rehearsed and played in competition the soli so Taki would know how each would sound with the group. Taki has also been Kumiko's teacher for the past 3 years, so he should know her tendencies and play style and if it matched the sound he wants. As the conductor, he stands in front of the band with all their sounds coming straight at him, so he has the best idea of whose sound matches instead of someone in the ensemble sitting off to the side or behind - I sat in front of trumpets and all I heard was trumpets blasting into my ears most of the time. It should have been Taki who chose not just because it is his job, but he has the most information about each player and the group as a whole. This would be the more realistic.

If their goal is gold and it is merit based, then why have a vote? Several of the students are beginners or not as knowledgeable to know what would make a gold-winning sound. I get the purpose was to not create turmoil again and fix Mayu/Kumiko's relationship, but what if that backfired too? What if one got all the votes and the other got none and they just quit because of embarrassment? What if Mayu still won, but since half the ensemble voted from Kumiko, they are still dissatisfied with the results? Why take the chance to create a new mess?

Finally, what precedence does this set going forward? The first and second years may continue to be in the band under Taki but now without Kumiko as president. So, if they disagree with his judgement again, do they just cause discord and it goes back to students voting - he's done it before. He has not repaired the ensemble's confidence in him as their leader.

I think after Kumiko's speech in the second competition plus them moving on to nationals, the ensemble would accept Mayu being chosen again by Taki even if they still did not like it. There was no reason to rehash the same drama or create an audition similar to what happened in Season 1. I get that it creates drama and hits you in the feels, but the whole situation even happening is far fetch and feels forced especially it ending in 50/50 with Reina being the deciding vote.

If they kept the original results, everyone would just accept the show as overall great show. But with the change, a portion of the viewers still think it is great, but then another portion now dislike it (mainly just Season 3). Besides the adding drama, my Japanese friend in Japan mentioned that maybe they did this to cause this discord and get people talking about the series. That will bring more people to the series and in turn more money.

I watched this episode when the drama about this particular episode died down. Tbh, I surprised that only a few on this forum even talked about how Mayu got scot-free with her stupid questions every episode and never ever apologize to Kumiko for her insensitive question, she's even asking that damn question just before the audition. The only one who apologized was Kumiko when she's given the same answer every damn time she was asked that uncomfortable question that she certainly didn't want to hear. The little flashback can mean many things, but I strongly believed her friend quit because she's asking that damn question knowing she's superior than her friend.

I still don't like Mayu one bit, this episode cemented her to be a manipulative girl she is which I had an inkling from earlier episodes. She only wants one thing to guilt trip a club president with the added responsibility, so she can felt much burden than she already had, If she really thinks about Kumiko like Kanade said she will not asking her this question every time and add her mental burden even further.

Reina decided to become tone deaf at the last minute, hope she retired from her musical career early.

Taki showing his incompetence and regressed IQ as story progress. To our untrained ear we can already determined that the music were different, he should be sacked for being a bad plus stupid teacher.

Not sure why this episode got so much positive reception? The writing is all over the place and making only Kumiko apologized to Mayu was the start of it.

The only thing that might salvage this for me is if Kitauji lose (preferrably miserably) just to show reality like they did with this episode which is highly impossible because the director wanted to prove a point.

@sirwence Then let me introduce to you to the author of "Sexy Tanaka-san" manga, Ashihara Hinako (it's a very heartbreaking case).

@popscrackle "Throughout the season, Mayu and Kumiko are described as equals except that Reina mentions that Mayu has the sound they are looking for. That’s why I don’t understand when people mention that Mayu is better than Kumiko."

This is what I say, and somehow people come to the conclusion that mayu deserves the solo because she's somehow better, even when the anime hasn't show that at all, and this episode just confirms it by making them tie twice

You're telling me that taki sensei couldn't choose between the two cause they're so similar but somehow reina could decide in less than 10 seconds, but they hold hands in the last minute of the episode and suddenly is good writing...

If you told me that taki sensei made the open audition so the other sudents choose kumiko then it would make sense (not expecting kumiko to ask for it to be blind), but even if that was the case he would choose kumiko right away, and IF mayu's actually better then half the episode makes no sense cause she should just win the first audition, they did this just to make reina the tiebreaker for a fabricated drama at the last moment.

@FireFistYK Well... seems that Takeda-sensei is okay with the changes so I'm glad we won't have another "Sexy Tanaka-san" case.
Not that I agree with what KyoAni did, but oh well.