I recently saw a very informative and enlightening video about what makes a video game a JRPG and how do to define a JRPG and it got me thinking deeply about it and i found myself agreeing with every point he made which he summarized in the image below which incidentally also reflects my views on what is a JRPG to a tee, hence i wanted it to ask you guys: "What is a JRPG to you ?" The Video in Question |
tchitchouanJan 22, 2023 10:28 AM
| It's not really a matter of what it "means" to anyone; the definition is so exact and precise that it's not up for interpretation. 'JRPG' means an RPG from Japan — nothing more, nothing less. I'd be awfully disappointed if I started searching for the 'JRPG' tag on a gaming store and started seeing that any game from any country arbitrarily got tagged as a JRPG because it has a vague "charming quality", pixel artstyle, turn-based combat, or some other flippant assortment of completely random game traits. It'd make the tag useless. |
Archean-ReturnFeb 8, 2023 8:46 PM
  ｲ乇刀乇乃尺ﾑ乇 ╔⏤═⏤╝   ╚⏤═⏤╗☽ Shaded Horizon ☾ |
| There's a lot of debate about this and even with other genres. There should be some mass genre overhaul that sets some clear standards once and for all lol. I don't agree games like Dark Souls, KH, and Zelda are JRPGs since I've always had a different style in my mind when I hear JRPG. But ALL the game styles and genres have become so varied and diluted that genres are better used as indicators of whether or not to try a game, and not as a strict categories. The picture in the OP has a really good definition but I think it's a bit restrictive. imo these would be the qualities of JRPG: 1) the familiar sprite style we all know of originally inspired by anime, manga, comics, cartoon etc 2) turn-based combat (extremely important) 3) from Japan That's it to me, since so many of the classic games we called jrpgs for years had those qualities at the least and it's what I've come to expect when I hear JPRG. iirc Ultima 4 on NES followed #1 and #2 but it would be weird to call it a JPRG as it wasn't Japanese (originally, iirc lol) and it does have a very different feel from JRPGs of the time when you actually play it. And what's funny is JRPG became its own genre to me despite there being literal RPGs from Japan that don't fit the JRPG expectation! So it's almost like there's two definitions for Japanese RPG lmao. Secret of Mana is an action-oriented Japanese RPG, but calling it a "JRPG" seems weird to me as the combat system is so different from the big JRPGs of its era. |
| Well as the name says JRPG - Japanese Role-Playing Game. Elden Ring is JRPG, Dark Souls not very much as I'd say Dark Soul is more of a Hack and Slash game, but if Souls are actually more RPGs than they are also JRPG. |
ZettaikenJan 22, 2023 11:16 AM
Crow_Black said: The best genre of video game ever to be made. I meant like a definition, to me jrpgs are story-driven adventure games traditionally and historically developed in Japan, featuring a group of pre-defined characters journeying on a quest fraught with danger. Typical traits of the genre include turn-based combat, fantasy elements (especially magic), extensive character and/or squad customization, and character progression or 'levelling' systems. The JRPG has evolved significantly since its early days and now encompasses a range of sub-genres, including tactical RPGs and action RPGs, which absorb elements from other genres. Games like Dark Souls, Nioh and Dragon's Dogma, for example, are hugely successful RPGs from Japanese studios, but they're not generally considered JRPGs. Likewise, there are games made outside Japan that many would consider JRPGs like Undertale. It's best to think of JRPGs as a genre with a strong - but not exclusive - footing in Japanese culture. |
tchitchouanFeb 8, 2023 12:49 PM
| While I agree all the RPGs I like exhibit the traits on the chart, I typically only play games made in Japan. Do RPGs made in other countries not have things like pixels, linear progression, and leveling up? |
| その目だれの目？ |
Lucifrost said: Do RPGs made in other countries not have things like pixels, linear progression, and leveling up? They do, but they often make use of a realistic art style which conflicts and clashes with the jrpg design principles and philosophy. |
| Jrpg to me is any game by japanese devs that have statistical progression systems like levels that improve stats as you progress through the game. So Sticker Star is not a rpg, but Thousand year door is. I do not count equipment boosting stats as progression so Monster Hunter is not a jrpg. |
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| JRPG is a style of game originating from Japan. They don't necessarily have to be made by Japanese devs, and that doesn't mean every RPG made by Japanese devs is a JRPG either. |
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rohan121 said: Jrpg to me is any game by japanese devs that have statistical progression systems like levels that improve stats as you progress through the game. So Sticker Star is not a rpg, but Thousand year door is. I do not count equipment boosting stats as progression so Monster Hunter is not a jrpg. By all previous measures, the monster hunter series should count as a jrpg series, it exhibits most of the traits of traditional jrpgs. Do you have any particular reasons you don't consider it as such ? |
Narmy said: JRPG is a style of game originating from Japan. They don't necessarily have to be made by Japanese devs, and that doesn't mean every RPG made by Japanese devs is a JRPG either. Yes, that's absolutely correct. jrpgs are story-driven adventure games traditionally and historically developed in Japan, featuring a group of pre-defined characters journeying on a quest fraught with danger. Typical traits of the genre include turn-based combat, fantasy elements (especially magic), extensive character and/or squad customization, and character progression or 'levelling' systems. The JRPG has evolved significantly since its early days and now encompasses a range of sub-genres, including tactical RPGs and action RPGs, which absorb elements from other genres. Games like Dark Souls, Nioh and Dragon's Dogma, for example, are hugely successful RPGs from Japanese studios, but they're not generally considered JRPGs. Likewise, there are games made outside Japan that many would consider JRPGs like Undertale. It's best to think of JRPGs as a genre with a strong - but not exclusive - footing in Japanese culture. |
| It's just a Japanese RPG. Anything else is common trends and tropes at best rather than part of the definition. |
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tchitchouan said: Then it's not a very helpful chart if the majority of its definition also applies to WRPGs.Lucifrost said: Do RPGs made in other countries not have things like pixels, linear progression, and leveling up? They do, but they often make use of a realistic art style which conflicts and clashes with the jrpg design principles and philosophy. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Lucifrost said: tchitchouan said: Then it's not a very helpful chart if the majority of its definition also applies to WRPGs.They do, but they often make use of a realistic art style which conflicts and clashes with the jrpg design principles and philosophy. No, western RPGS are different, they're predicated on player choice and absolute freedom to make whatever decision you want at any time; whereas jrpgs put you in a preset and linear narrative adventure from start to end which wrpgs never or rarely do. https://the-artifice.com/jrpg-vs-wrpg/ |
tchitchouanFeb 8, 2023 4:12 PM
tchitchouan said: But I asked you before if western RPGs do that, and you said they do...jrpgs put you in a preset and linear narrative adventure from start to end which wrpgs never or rarely do. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Lucifrost said: tchitchouan said: But I asked you before if western RPGs do that, and you said they do...jrpgs put you in a preset and linear narrative adventure from start to end which wrpgs never or rarely do. it's hard to discern exactly the percentage of wrpgs that have linear progression and those that don't, but in more often cases than not wrpgs tend to follow the non-linear design philosophy. |
tchitchouan said: I still stand by my statement that it's not a very good definition if a game can fit the definition yet not count as a JRPG.Lucifrost said: it's hard to discern exactly the percentage of wrpgs that have linear progression and those that don't, but in more often cases than not wrpgs tend to follow the non-linear design philosophy.But I asked you before if western RPGs do that, and you said they do... |
| その目だれの目？ |
| you know it when you see it. Dark Souls ain't one. |
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Lucifrost said: tchitchouan said: I still stand by my statement that it's not a very good definition if a game can fit the definition yet not count as a JRPG.it's hard to discern exactly the percentage of wrpgs that have linear progression and those that don't, but in more often cases than not wrpgs tend to follow the non-linear design philosophy. Alright then what is your definition of a jrpg ? this is the topic of the thread after all. If mine is flawed then surely you must have a better one. epidemia78 said: you know it when you see it. Dark Souls ain't one. My point exactly. Games like Dark Souls, Nioh and Dragon's Dogma, for example, are hugely successful RPGs from Japanese studios, but they're not generally considered JRPGs. Likewise, there are games made outside Japan that many would consider JRPGs like Undertale. It's best to think of JRPGs as a genre with a strong - but not exclusive - footing in Japanese culture. |
tchitchouan said: Games like Dark Souls, Nioh and Dragon's Dogma, for example, are hugely successful RPGs from Japanese studios, but they're not generally considered JRPGs. Likewise, there are games made outside Japan that many would consider JRPGs like Undertale. It's best to think of JRPGs as a genre with a strong - but not exclusive - footing in Japanese culture. Imagine thinking Elden Ring and Persona 5 are the same genre. it is absolutely possible for a developer outside of Japan to make a JRPG just as it's possible for a Japanese dev to create a western RPG. Take Wizardry for example: The JRPG was after all born from a niche but rabid audience over there for games such as Ultima. A niche that still exists to this day and is catered to with games like Shin Megami Tensei. |
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epidemia78 said: tchitchouan said: Games like Dark Souls, Nioh and Dragon's Dogma, for example, are hugely successful RPGs from Japanese studios, but they're not generally considered JRPGs. Likewise, there are games made outside Japan that many would consider JRPGs like Undertale. It's best to think of JRPGs as a genre with a strong - but not exclusive - footing in Japanese culture. Imagine thinking Elden Ring and Persona 5 are the same genre. it is absolutely possible for a developer outside of Japan to make a JRPG just as it's possible for a Japanese dev to create a western RPG. Take Wizardry for example: The JRPG was after all born from a niche but rabid audience over there for games such as Ultima. A niche that still exists to this day and is catered to with games like Shin Megami Tensei. You make an excellent point, Elden Ring and Persona 5 are not from the same genre, they may share some elements that are common to all rpgs like numbered stats but that's where the similarities end, they're completely different games. I recently read an article that claimed that the octopath travelers devs believe that every single rpg made in japan is a jrpg which is incredibly flawed and wrong if true. he also delves on the influence of wizardy and ultima had on the creation of jrpgs as a genre. https://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2023/02/07/octopath-traveler-was-made-for-the-developers/ |
tchitchouan said: Just as anime is animation made in Japan, JRPGs are RPGs made in Japan. They may not be the most useful definitions, but they are entirely objective.Alright then what is your definition of a jrpg ? this is the topic of the thread after all. If mine is flawed then surely you must have a better one. epidemia78 said: Imagine thinking Tales and Persona are the same genre.Imagine thinking Elden Ring and Persona 5 are the same genre. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Lucifrost said: tchitchouan said: Just as anime is animation made in Japan, JRPGs are RPGs made in Japan. They may not be the most useful definitions, but they are entirely objective.Alright then what is your definition of a jrpg ? this is the topic of the thread after all. If mine is flawed then surely you must have a better one. epidemia78 said: Imagine thinking Tales and Persona are the same genre.Imagine thinking Elden Ring and Persona 5 are the same genre. First of all the Tales and Persona both belong to the same JRPG genre, however they classift within different subgenres Tales of are action jrpgs while Persona are Turn-based jrpgs. Second of all i disagree with your definition jrpgs (it's too vague and inaccurate) and here's why: jrpgs are story-driven adventure games traditionally and historically developed in Japan, featuring a group of pre-defined characters journeying on a quest fraught with danger. Typical traits of the genre include turn-based combat, fantasy elements (especially magic), extensive character and/or squad customization, and character progression or 'levelling' systems. The JRPG has evolved significantly since its early days and now encompasses a range of sub-genres, including tactical RPGs and action RPGs, which absorb elements from other genres. Games like Dark Souls, Nioh and Dragon's Dogma, for example, are hugely successful RPGs from Japanese studios, but they're not generally considered JRPGs. Likewise, there are games made outside Japan that many would consider JRPGs like Undertale. It's best to think of JRPGs as a genre with a strong - but not exclusive - footing in Japanese culture. Good examples of JRPGs include the Famicom games such as older Dragon Ball ones and a huge majority of Game Boy ones. More popularly, Pokémon, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Monster Hunter, Kingdom Hearts, Souls, Super Robot Wars, and Mario have been instrumental to the proliferation of the genre. Major companies that specialize in the genre include Bandai Namco, Capcom, Nihon Falcom, Sega, Square Enix, Nintendo, Konami, etc. Unsurprisingly, these are all Japanese companies. You will recognize these names outside of Japan as well because most of them are multinational. That being said, it must be pretty hard to further differentiate between subsets of RPGs. But comparing JRPGs with WRPGs is surprisingly easier. Here are some common traits: JRPGs are typically more storytelling-driven, while WRPGs usually focus on combat and having a complex story. There’s a lot of dialogue in JRPGs and an emphasis on character interaction and storytelling compared to WRPGs. Many JRPGs traditionally have turn-based combat systems. In contrast, most WRPGs use real-time combat systems that allow for fast-paced action sequences with tons of movement options for your characters. |
Lucifrost said: Imagine thinking Tales and Persona are the same genre. One is turn based and the other has a real time combat system. That's the primary difference. Aside from that they both have all the trappings of a JRPG. |
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| @epidemia78 I'm glad someone out there will reference Wizardry besides me. I joke about Wizardry being a JRPG series because like most of it technically is besides the PC originals. I think this thread has less to do with how we define a JRPG and more RPGs in general. Some people only look at the roleplaying aspect but in videogames roleplaying is more vague than with tabletop games. Even you can stretch the terms loose enough to where Megaman X and Zelda games are RPGs. Kinda hard but I just go with my gut. |
  ♡ Harder Daddy ♡ |
_Nette_ said: Megaman X and Zelda games are RPGs I wouldn't go that far but i kinda see your point, also the influence ultima and wizardry had on jrpgs can never be overlooked or understated. |
tchitchouan said: _Nette_ said: Megaman X and Zelda games are RPGs I wouldn't go that far but i kinda see your point, also the influence ultima and wizardry had on jrpgs can never be overlooked or understated. I wouldn't call them RPGs either but the RPG community memes about Zelda being one constantly. And ikr, Ultima and Wizardry are both cool franchises too. I love how they were made out of nothing but passion by nerds. Gaming in its purest form. |
♡ Harder Daddy ♡ |
_Nette_ said: tchitchouan said: I wouldn't go that far but i kinda see your point, also the influence ultima and wizardry had on jrpgs can never be overlooked or understated. I wouldn't call them RPGs either but the RPG community memes about Zelda being one constantly. And ikr, Ultima and Wizardry are both cool franchises too. I love how they were made out of nothing but passion by nerds. Gaming in its purest form. Zelda games are action-adventure games with puzzle elements in their purest form, they lack the "numbers" and "stats" associated with usual rpgs to be considered as one, like when you hit and enemy or level up. The only zelda game that can somewhat be considered an rpg is Zelda II: The Adventure of Link on NES. As per your second point, i fully agree without Ultima and Wizardry we would have never had jrpgs as they are today. |
tchitchouan said: _Nette_ said: I wouldn't call them RPGs either but the RPG community memes about Zelda being one constantly. And ikr, Ultima and Wizardry are both cool franchises too. I love how they were made out of nothing but passion by nerds. Gaming in its purest form. Zelda games are action-adventure games with puzzle elements in their purest form, they lack the "numbers" and "stats" associated with usual rpgs to be considered as one, like when you hit and enemy or level up. The only zelda game that can somewhat be considered an rpg is Zelda II: The Adventure of Link on NES. As per your second point, i fully agree without Ultima and Wizardry we would have never had jrpgs as they are today. Zelda II is the only RPG in the series. It is a neat action RPG as well that has its own level of impact on the industry. Like being the inspiration for Symphony of the Night and Maybe Ys III and Faxanadu. Not sure but those are pretty similar. Honestly not enough people understand the JRPG genre when it was in its infancy. Rarely do people talk about how big Hydlide and Xanadu were on computers back then. |
♡ Harder Daddy ♡ |
_Nette_ said: tchitchouan said: Zelda games are action-adventure games with puzzle elements in their purest form, they lack the "numbers" and "stats" associated with usual rpgs to be considered as one, like when you hit and enemy or level up. The only zelda game that can somewhat be considered an rpg is Zelda II: The Adventure of Link on NES. As per your second point, i fully agree without Ultima and Wizardry we would have never had jrpgs as they are today. Zelda II is the only RPG in the series. It is a neat action RPG as well that has its own level of impact on the industry. Like being the inspiration for Symphony of the Night and Maybe Ys III and Faxanadu. Not sure but those are pretty similar. Honestly not enough people understand the JRPG genre when it was in its infancy. Rarely do people talk about how big Hydlide and Xanadu were on computers back then. Oh absolutely, Nihon Falcom is practically the the grand father of all action JRPGS as they had already layed all the ground work and paved the way for what would later become arpgs in Dragon Slayer and Xanadu, also some credit should go to the now defunct T&E Soft for refining many of the janky mechanics falcom created in Dragon Slayer in their Hydlide series. |
tchitchouan said: _Nette_ said: Zelda II is the only RPG in the series. It is a neat action RPG as well that has its own level of impact on the industry. Like being the inspiration for Symphony of the Night and Maybe Ys III and Faxanadu. Not sure but those are pretty similar. Honestly not enough people understand the JRPG genre when it was in its infancy. Rarely do people talk about how big Hydlide and Xanadu were on computers back then. Oh absolutely, Nihon Falcom is practically the the grand father of all action JRPGS as they had already layed all the ground work and paved the way for what would later become arpgs in Dragon Slayer and Xanadu, also some credit should go to the now defunct T&E Soft for refining many of the janky mechanics falcom created in Dragon Slayer in their Hydlide series. Mentioning Dragon Slayer gives me flashbacks to trying to play that game a decade ago. That was an experience for sure. I also played the later games briefly like the one where you play as the family. Sorcerian? Forget what it's called. Also kinda unrelated but you sound like someone who would love the book that's the history of JRPGs. It's an awesome book. |
♡ Harder Daddy ♡ |
_Nette_ said: tchitchouan said: Oh absolutely, Nihon Falcom is practically the the grand father of all action JRPGS as they had already layed all the ground work and paved the way for what would later become arpgs in Dragon Slayer and Xanadu, also some credit should go to the now defunct T&E Soft for refining many of the janky mechanics falcom created in Dragon Slayer in their Hydlide series. Mentioning Dragon Slayer gives me flashbacks to trying to play that game a decade ago. That was an experience for sure. I also played the later games briefly like the one where you play as the family. Sorcerian? Forget what it's called. Also kinda unrelated but you sound like someone who would love the book that's the history of JRPGs. It's an awesome book. Yes, i'm well aware of that book and i had read few chapters of it. An excellent read, highly recommended for rpg fans and retro gaming enthusiasts. |
tchitchouan said: _Nette_ said: Mentioning Dragon Slayer gives me flashbacks to trying to play that game a decade ago. That was an experience for sure. I also played the later games briefly like the one where you play as the family. Sorcerian? Forget what it's called. Also kinda unrelated but you sound like someone who would love the book that's the history of JRPGs. It's an awesome book. Yes, i'm well aware of that book and i had read few chapters of it. An excellent read, highly recommended for rpg fans and retro gaming enthusiasts. Hell yeah, good book. Perfect for JRPG spergs. Especially those who like the cool fantasy ones lol. |
♡ Harder Daddy ♡ |
_Nette_ said: Sorcerian? Forget what it's called. Also, i must give my utmost thanks to Nihon Flacom from the bottom of my heart for Sorcerian, Brandish and my beloved bikini armor waifu Delon Dela.        _Nette_ said: Hell yeah, good book. Perfect for JRPG spergs. Especially those who like the cool fantasy ones lol That is a good description of myself, perfect book for me. |
tchitchouanFeb 8, 2023 9:15 PM
| @tchitchouan I've wanted to play Brandish but the movement and camera hurt my brain. Like actual pain lol. Falcom is underappreciated outside of Japan. Although I still like Ys the most. |
♡ Harder Daddy ♡ |
_Nette_ said: @tchitchouan I've wanted to play Brandish but the movement and camera hurt my brain. Like actual pain lol. Falcom is underappreciated outside of Japan. Although I still like Ys the most. I feel like Nihon Falcom has been steadily getting the praise and acclaim they much deserve due to the success of YS 8 and 9 and due to the the ever so popular and successful legend of heroes series (trails/kiseki) |
tchitchouan said: _Nette_ said: @tchitchouan I've wanted to play Brandish but the movement and camera hurt my brain. Like actual pain lol. Falcom is underappreciated outside of Japan. Although I still like Ys the most. I feel like Nihon Falcom has been steadily getting the praise and acclaim they much deserve due to the success of YS 8 and 9 and due to the the ever so popular and successful legend of heroes series (trails/kiseki) For some reason I am salty about the Trails series. I want to like them but they don't click. Ys is a gift though. Been a fan for over a decade now, yeesh time flies. |
♡ Harder Daddy ♡ |
_Nette_ said: tchitchouan said: I feel like Nihon Falcom has been steadily getting the praise and acclaim they much deserve due to the success of YS 8 and 9 and due to the the ever so popular and successful legend of heroes series (trails/kiseki) For some reason I am salty about the Trails series. I want to like them but they don't click. Ys is a gift though. Been a fan for over a decade now, yeesh time flies. Yeah i get you, trails are not for everyone especially when you must play every single game chronologically to understand the full story, i see how that can deter some people because the later games put you in the action without any introduction or explanation of the prior events, you're just expected to have played the older games otherwise you'd be lost and confused. Whereas Ys is special, because of adol's amnesiac nature every game is its own standalone self contained story, that's why new comers can play ys 7/8/9 without having to play the old and clunky "bump combat" ys games.   |
tchitchouanFeb 8, 2023 9:31 PM
tchitchouan said: That's exactly why I don't consider "Japanese style" and "western style" to be genres. They have the same roots and regularly copied one another.the influence ultima and wizardry had on jrpgs can never be overlooked or understated. _Nette_ said: I'm willing to try more games if they're made available. I played some form of Ys 1 through 4 and liked Oath in Felghanna the most. (Memories of Celcetta, not so much.) Ys 5 has yet to be localized. And I'm not touching Trails until they bring Sky to modern consoles; part 3 remains a PC exclusive outside Japan. I hated the same thing about Kingdom Hearts, having to buy multiple consoles to get the most out of the series!Falcom is underappreciated outside of Japan. Although I still like Ys the most. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Lucifrost said: tchitchouan said: That's exactly why I don't consider "Japanese style" and "western style" to be genres. They have the same roots and regularly copied one another.the influence ultima and wizardry had on jrpgs can never be overlooked or understated. _Nette_ said: I'm willing to try more games if they're made available. I played some form of Ys 1 through 4 and liked Oath in Felghanna the most. (Memories of Celcetta, not so much.) Ys 5 has yet to be localized. And I'm not touching Trails until they bring Sky to modern consoles; part 3 remains a PC exclusive outside Japan.Falcom is underappreciated outside of Japan. Although I still like Ys the most. If you ask me, you should just play ys memories of celceta and ys 7/8/9 those are the most modern and mechanically pleasant to play. Tho i do enjoy ys 5 on snes emulator from time to time but it's not a must play.  |
tchitchouan said: You quoted me saying I didn't like Memories of Celceta as much. I'm not playing more games that use the same mechanics.If you ask me, just play ys memories of celceta and ys 7/8/9 those are the most modern and mechanically pleasant to play. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Lucifrost said: tchitchouan said: You quoted me saying I didn't like Memories of Celceta as much. I'm not playing more games that use the same mechanics.If you ask me, just play ys memories of celceta and ys 7/8/9 those are the most modern and mechanically pleasant to play. celceta and 7 have practically the same mechanics which are different from ys 8 and ys 9 which have similar mechanics. |
| Is that so? The reviews I read say Ys 8 and 9 play like 4 and 7. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Turn based or time based combat (so not the direction FF seems to be taking) and levelling. More story than most other genres. Lots of world exploration. The last two are often present in other RPGs as well, so I think the first one that is determining it for me. |
| This is your reminder to drink water 💦 or eat some fruit 🍒 🥝 |
jimpprimm said: The definition of 'JRPG' is very precise and leaves no room for interpretation. It simply means an RPG developed in Japan and nothing more. If any game from any other country is labeled as a JRPG solely based on traits such as charming quality, pixel art style, or turn-based combat, it would render the tag meaningless. It would be disappointing for me to search for the 'JRPG' tag on a gaming store and find such arbitrary labeling of games. So, according to you Dark Souls is a JRPG ? it is an RPG fully made Japan thus a JRPG. |
| To me, JRPG is an RPG made in Japan. |
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