Denji as main character

Dec 27, 2022 9:40 PM

Offline

Sep 2021

6

carnilino said:
First, a statement: I’m anime only, not discussing any development manga might have.

When I watched first few episodes of CSM, I thought: “Very nice. We have an empty, beaten down and deeply depressed main character who has nothing going for him. His potential for character growth and development is endless.”

And then, nothing happened. As of ep 12, he has formed no attachments to people and doesn’t have any goals. I have been studying a bit of story writing and one of the most important things for MC to have are relatability and proactivity. Now, he is plenty relatable, but he is not very proactive, since he just (mostly) goes along with what other people tell him to do. This is caused by his lack of goals and personal relationships. If the character doesn’t have anything he cares about, it makes it hard to root for him - and rooting for him is what draws you into the story.

For example, Aki is more MC-ish, since he has drive, motivation and goals which are personally connected to the main plot. I’m stressing the personal connection, since it gives him a reason not to bail out and try something else.

Some people will say that boobs and the seks is plenty good as a goal, and while it may be realistic for a kid, it is not enough for a main character in a longer story. What I expected was him starting to have personal connections, or slowly starting to feel affected by other people deaths/actions, maybe coming to some realizations that would provide a base for his goals.

I’m not saying that lack of Denji’s development ruins the show, just that for me personally it makes my emotional investment in it lackluster and therefore lowers my enjoyment. Did this affect any of you, and in what way?

(Please keep your replies in constructive criticism and personal experience territories, we dont want a new CSM good/bad war.)

My friend just wait and watch

Dec 27, 2022 9:45 PM

#3

Armisticee

Offline

Dec 2017

60

Well, I like Denji not because he's "relatable," but because he's being himself. He knows he's a loser & being used and he doesn't care.
We already have the pure-hearted Protags like Naruto & Tanjiro, and the already mature like Ichigo & Yuuji.
We never get an actual caveman get thrown into a real modern world, and become dogs to be used by people around him over and over again, and still choses being an ignorant until he learns the hard way. I mean the harshest & darkest way possible.
Chainsaw Man is a story about growing up, and making your own choices. Just let Denji being Denji. I love his character the way he is.

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Dec 27, 2022 9:48 PM

#4

Piromysl

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Jul 2015

13658

Your first sentence is your problem.
The manga is still going and what we have seen so far is barely even a prologue.

Dec 27, 2022 9:48 PM

#5

DecentBonks

Offline

Oct 2021

21

This is the exact issue I have with Denji and CSM rn and why it just didn’t click for me. I straight up did not care about Denji since, well, I had no idea who he was as a character. Yes he’s an emotionally and mentally immature teen with room to grow, but you can extrapolate a lot about a character from their goals and dreams. You get an idea of how ambitious they are, what their ideals, motivations, flaws, etc are based on what they want to achieve. I didn’t really understand what he wanted to achieve throughout the season and I ended up just not giving a damn.

Now I know I’m gonna get swarmed by “read the manga bro” comments but frankly I’m on the fence about it. To me, first impressions matter a lot and if my first impression about Denji and CSM is apathy, then I’d have to actually be sold on the manga to even consider reading it.

Dec 27, 2022 9:50 PM

#6

MadanielFL

Offline

Feb 2021

7331

Tbh his character grows more throughout the story, the anime just hasn't reached that point yet.

Dec 27, 2022 9:57 PM

#7

Aryan-0_0

Offline

Jul 2021

498

Piromysl said:
Your first sentence is your problem.
The manga is still going and what we have seen so far is barely even a prologue.

As an anime only, this is the only complaint I have from csm, All of S1 Just felt like a prologue and too slow,maybe? Idk , atleast we are finally done with prolouge and actual story starts from S2, which im hyped for

Dec 27, 2022 10:29 PM

#8

King_KK

Offline

Apr 2019

1482

carnilino said:
This is caused by his lack of goals and personal relationships. If the character doesn’t have anything he cares about, it makes it hard to root for him - and rooting for him is what draws you into the story.

He has been forming relationships though. Initially he had no one other than Pochita but now he has Aki and Power with whom he has formed connections. Those connections are only gonna grow stronger as the series goes on. I don't know what you mean when you say he doesn't have any personal connection.

carnilino said:
Some people will say that boobs and the seks is plenty good as a goal, and while it may be realistic for a kid, it is not enough for a main character in a longer story. What I expected was him starting to have personal connections, or slowly starting to feel affected by other people deaths/actions, maybe coming to some realizations that would provide a base for his goals.

Denji's goals are dynamic and keep on changing throughout the course of the manga. He will get very close to his new friends in the future as well but you gotta give it time. People don't change that quickly especially people like Denji who had horrible childhood and stunted growth as a result of it. He will get better as a character but you will have to wait till he slowly naturally changes over time.

Dec 27, 2022 10:29 PM

#9

Piromysl

Offline

Jul 2015

13658

MAXproARYAN said:

Piromysl said:
Your first sentence is your problem.
The manga is still going and what we have seen so far is barely even a prologue.

As an anime only, this is the only complaint I have from csm, All of S1 Just felt like a prologue and too slow,maybe? Idk , atleast we are finally done with prolouge and actual story starts from S2, which im hyped for

Nah, pacing was good. It was inevitable, that they'll skip some parts, but thankfully they skipped only those less relevant (Muscle devil, for example).
This is especially not an issue, because chances of S2 happening eventually are roughly 99%.

Dec 27, 2022 10:29 PM

#10

RandomPerson9348

Offline

Mar 2022

327

carnilino said:
First, a statement: I’m anime only, not discussing any development manga might have.

When I watched first few episodes of CSM, I thought: “Very nice. We have an empty, beaten down and deeply depressed main character who has nothing going for him. His potential for character growth and development is endless.”

And then, nothing happened. As of ep 12, he has formed no attachments to people and doesn’t have any goals. I have been studying a bit of story writing and one of the most important things for MC to have are relatability and proactivity. Now, he is plenty relatable, but he is not very proactive, since he just (mostly) goes along with what other people tell him to do. This is caused by his lack of goals and personal relationships. If the character doesn’t have anything he cares about, it makes it hard to root for him - and rooting for him is what draws you into the story.

For example, Aki is more MC-ish, since he has drive, motivation and goals which are personally connected to the main plot. I’m stressing the personal connection, since it gives him a reason not to bail out and try something else.

Some people will say that boobs and the seks is plenty good as a goal, and while it may be realistic for a kid, it is not enough for a main character in a longer story. What I expected was him starting to have personal connections, or slowly starting to feel affected by other people deaths/actions, maybe coming to some realizations that would provide a base for his goals.

I’m not saying that lack of Denji’s development ruins the show, just that for me personally it makes my emotional investment in it lackluster and therefore lowers my enjoyment. Did this affect any of you, and in what way?

(Please keep your replies in constructive criticism and personal experience territories, we dont want a new CSM good/bad war.)

As someone who has been writing for the last 8 years or so, here goes.

First, it isn't always important for a good protagonist to be relatable. Just as one example, Light Yagami isn't relatable at all, but he's a great protagonist. What's important is for the character to be "understandable". You must look at their circumstances and motivations, and agree that the actions they take make sense according to their point of view. Reliability is a secondary trait that isn't really necessary.

As for Denji, his circumstances are very different from most protagonists, which is why his development and depth is very different. You are right in the fact that he doesn't have any concrete goals and motivations, but that's exactly what his character is about.

He has lived such a bad life until the show begins, that he never even considered thinking about the next day. Being alive today was most important to him. But becoming a Devil Hunter changes that. And as he tells Katana Man in episode 12, the only thing that matters to him is "protecting what I have right now". He has found a life which would've been a dream to him a few months ago. He has friends, colleagues, good food to eat, etc.

As of this point, he has nothing that he could want beyond this. At least materialistic stuff. He wants to satisfy his sexual desires, but that's still a basic human want. He hasn't even considered thinking beyond that. He's just gotten his first bicycle, so he isn't thinking of getting a car right then. Think of these twelve episodes as nothing more than setup for his character.

Chainsaw Man's first part, is by all rights, an origin story. He isn't the main character yet. But he will be when the second season ends. Just a little bit of patience.

Dec 27, 2022 11:18 PM

#11

Aryan-0_0

Offline

Jul 2021

498

Piromysl said:

MAXproARYAN said:

As an anime only, this is the only complaint I have from csm, All of S1 Just felt like a prologue and too slow,maybe? Idk , atleast we are finally done with prolouge and actual story starts from S2, which im hyped for

Nah, pacing was good. It was inevitable, that they'll skip some parts, but thankfully they skipped only those less relevant (Muscle devil, for example).
This is especially not an issue, because chances of S2 happening eventually are roughly 99%.

The pacing wasn't that good imo, it felt like almost nothing happened in first 7 eps . Anyways, as you said , S2 is happening for sure

Dec 28, 2022 12:05 AM

#12

mong_oose

Offline

Jul 2021

3

Manga reader here. I think a lot of your analysis, honestly, is spot-on: Denji is a completely reactive character who isn't proactive at all. His goals of wanting to touch boobs, etc., etc. are unfulfilling and not truly what drives his character. And, yeah, unfortunately, those are gonna be things that completely take some people out of the story and cause them to dislike Denji. But they're also why I think Denji is incredibly well-written and why I absolutely love him as a character/MC. Denji is intentionally written to be exactly what you described and the antithesis of a typical shonen protagonist-- he's just a 16-year-old kid, and he's written like one. And while he might try and make attempts to think about goals he might want to have, like touching boobs or eating good food, the real character conflict on his part is that he doesn't know what he wants. Which, I think, makes him even more relatable-- do any of us even really know what we want in life? For sure? Do we know what it means to live a good life and how do we make sure we do? All of those are the questions and conflicts Denji is dealing with throughout the course of the manga, and, yeah, he makes a lot of mistakes. He really doesn't know what he wants, and so he gets it wrong a lot of the time. But he keeps trying to fulfill his contract with Pochita-- and, therefore, proactively live a good life.

Denji comes farther on this path throughout the course of the manga, but he's a very emotionally stunted character. It's a sort of "two steps forward, one step back" situation, but seeing even marginal growth on his part is, for me, a really wonderful thing, because it feels incredibly well-earned. His character writing is a lot more subtle than the typical shonen protag, but I find it to be much more compelling because it feels so much more realistic and relatable than if he were, at 16 and having so far lived an incredibly stunted and abusive life, to go "I want to be the greatest devil hunter of all time!" and then dedicate the rest of the manga to chasing after that dream or something like it.

But, then again, this approach isn't gonna work for everyone. CSM does it differently than the typical shonen, and while some people are going to love that, some people are going to dislike it. I personally really liked Denji's character even from the beginning of the manga (for the reasons I stated above, as well as some others), so if you're not a fan of his character writing in the first half, you probably won't fall head-over-heels in love with his character in the second, unfortunately. He might just not be a compelling character to you, and traditionally-written protagonists might be more to your taste-- but hopefully there are still parts of the story you can fall in love with, like I was able to do with Denji's character writing :)

Dec 28, 2022 4:10 AM

#13

AlphaExtra

Offline

Oct 2021

22

As a manga reader, I kinda understand your perspective. The anime is still in the early parts of the story, and S1 could arguably be called a prologue. Denji still has a long way to go from here.

However, I do disagree with you that he doesn't have any personal relationships or development as of the finale. It's never stated explicitly by any of the characters, but he's grown relatively close with Aki and Power and it's been shown throughout the episodes. One example I think is obvious is Denji leaving Aki an apple in episode 10. Knowing Denji's background, he'd never turn down or give away food, especially to someone he would dislike. He's also just chill with Power. Regarding the monologue about his coworkers dying, I'd say that him not crying is due to his lack of emotional development and/or a mental defense mechanism that he developed to survive in the yakuza as a child.

And I feel like a good amount of newcomers to this story do overlook his "goal" for boobs. His talk with Pochita in episode 1 and the first half of episode 5 should make it clear that he desires sexual things like touching boobs or having sex because he thinks achieving those will get him closer to finding love, or some kind of personal relationship.

Denji's character has developed, at least a little bit, from start to end of this season. I'd argue that it's actually be unrealistic for him to suddenly be friends with his coworkers, considering he's a complete societal outcast and has been doing nothing but fight devils since his childhood.

But yeah, Denji is not a character that everyone can easily get invested in. It also took awhile for me to as well, but rereading the manga and following the anime really let me catch a lot of details I missed before. It could also be because I know what happens to him/what he does later in the story, but I can't tell for sure. Hopefully you can see him in a better light down the line.

Dec 28, 2022 7:15 AM

#14

simpforpower

Offline

Dec 2022

10

carnilino said:
First, a statement: I’m anime only, not discussing any development manga might have.

When I watched first few episodes of CSM, I thought: “Very nice. We have an empty, beaten down and deeply depressed main character who has nothing going for him. His potential for character growth and development is endless.”

And then, nothing happened. As of ep 12, he has formed no attachments to people and doesn’t have any goals. I have been studying a bit of story writing and one of the most important things for MC to have are relatability and proactivity. Now, he is plenty relatable, but he is not very proactive, since he just (mostly) goes along with what other people tell him to do. This is caused by his lack of goals and personal relationships. If the character doesn’t have anything he cares about, it makes it hard to root for him - and rooting for him is what draws you into the story.

For example, Aki is more MC-ish, since he has drive, motivation and goals which are personally connected to the main plot. I’m stressing the personal connection, since it gives him a reason not to bail out and try something else.

Some people will say that boobs and the seks is plenty good as a goal, and while it may be realistic for a kid, it is not enough for a main character in a longer story. What I expected was him starting to have personal connections, or slowly starting to feel affected by other people deaths/actions, maybe coming to some realizations that would provide a base for his goals.

I’m not saying that lack of Denji’s development ruins the show, just that for me personally it makes my emotional investment in it lackluster and therefore lowers my enjoyment. Did this affect any of you, and in what way?

(Please keep your replies in constructive criticism and personal experience territories, we dont want a new CSM good/bad war.)

imma start off with applauding you for the effort you put into understanding Denji. But, then again, the anime contains only a glimpse of the whole series innit. ya wont get him completely with just 12 episodes, ain't no character development gonna take place so soon.
Take Tanjiro for example. He's just a random Slayer who knows basic breathing forms and the only thing that changes in the first 12 episodes is his strength and perhaps if you pay a closer look, his maturity.
Similarly, Denji became both stronger and more mature. He trained with Kishibe and also, the maturity part os something subtly mentioned, about him losing his human heart for a devil heart.

To be precise, i guess you gotta have patience cuz nothing real dramatic happens so quick. Though, i will persuade you to read the manga since you'll probably get white hair waiting for the second season, and i assure you, you will finally see the development you've wanted cuz Reze is technically Denji's swimming teacher.

Dec 28, 2022 4:36 PM

#15

Dontlookll

Offline

Sep 2022

3

DecentBonks said:
This is the exact issue I have with Denji and CSM rn and why it just didn’t click for me. I straight up did not care about Denji since, well, I had no idea who he was as a character. Yes he’s an emotionally and mentally immature teen with room to grow, but you can extrapolate a lot about a character from their goals and dreams. You get an idea of how ambitious they are, what their ideals, motivations, flaws, etc are based on what they want to achieve. I didn’t really understand what he wanted to achieve throughout the season and I ended up just not giving a damn.

Now I know I’m gonna get swarmed by “read the manga bro” comments but frankly I’m on the fence about it. To me, first impressions matter a lot and if my first impression about Denji and CSM is apathy, then I’d have to actually be sold on the manga to even consider reading it.

Read the manga bro

Dec 29, 2022 3:01 PM

#16

IshioVH

Offline

Mar 2010

50

My man, i'm sorry but even in the manga, Denji has zero development.

Until the last chapter, he still being the same.

Dec 29, 2022 4:06 PM

#17

thedryness

Offline

Dec 2013

120

MAXproARYAN said:

Piromysl said:
Your first sentence is your problem.
The manga is still going and what we have seen so far is barely even a prologue.

As an anime only, this is the only complaint I have from csm, All of S1 Just felt like a prologue and too slow,maybe? Idk , atleast we are finally done with prolouge and actual story starts from S2, which im hyped for

this is a big part of it. season 1 being 12 episodes hurts it i think. if you look at the story as a whole we've really just gotten through the intro, so of course his character hasn't had some mind blowing character development arc yet.

that being said i think yall are still selling denji way too short. honestly for 12 episodes of a shounen series i think denji's development is WAYYYY above average. his goals and motivations arent as simple and clear cut as your standard shounen MC. in fact denji doesn't really understand his own goals because he's so socially and emotionally stunted. for example he spends episode 2,3,4 talking about how his goal is to touch boobs, but i think its not that hard to see that what denji is really after at that point is intimacy and companionship. he just doesn't have the wisdom or social experience to know the difference yet, he's just taking the goal of touching boobs from his naieve social expectations. but struggling with what his goals are is kinda core to his arc, because a big part of denji's arc is about learning to think and and set goals for himself and not just going along with what his superiors or the social expectations dictate.

Dec 29, 2022 4:30 PM

#18

OrthodoxDelu

Offline

Dec 2022

54

MAXproARYAN said:

Piromysl said:
Your first sentence is your problem.
The manga is still going and what we have seen so far is barely even a prologue.

As an anime only, this is the only complaint I have from csm, All of S1 Just felt like a prologue and too slow,maybe? Idk , atleast we are finally done with prolouge and actual story starts from S2, which im hyped for

hate to tell you this, friend
but strictly speaking, the next sixty or so chapters that follow on from where the anime left off are also apart of the prologue.
perhaps one of the best prologues in all of fiction, but still a prologue. so if that at all turns you off, be warned.

Dec 29, 2022 4:48 PM

#19

OrthodoxDelu

Offline

Dec 2022

54

carnilino said:
Some people will say that boobs and the seks is plenty good as a goal, and while it may be realistic for a kid, it is not enough for a main character in a longer story. What I expected was him starting to have personal connections, or slowly starting to feel affected by other people deaths/actions, maybe coming to some realizations that would provide a base for his goals.

think it's made perfectly clear in all episodes following the third that denji is after more than just boobs and sex.
it's merely a front for the boy craving an emotional connection.
that said, he's also getting pretty personal with his roommates. isn't spoon fed to you, but it ain't exactly subtext either.
finally deciding to keep quiet while in the bath, power leaning on his shoulder for comfort, and him and aki making a game out nailing katana man in the nuts.
as is the case with human beings, we often don't announce it when we grow closer with one another. it just happens, and we have to see where it takes us.
denji is plenty complex, and is growing by the episode.

Dec 31, 2022 4:19 PM

#20

AlphaExtra

Offline

Oct 2021

22

Ryuzaki_kun said:
My man, i'm sorry but even in the manga, Denji has zero development.

Until the last chapter, he still being the same.

Speedreading devil get to you? Denji's clearly changed by the time Part 1 ends.

Dec 31, 2022 4:27 PM

#21

xZabuzax

Offline

Nov 2016

4111

Anime only here (I will read the manga soon though), I liked Denji as a character, not because he's relatable, I liked him because he's different from the other main characters who have big ambitions and motivation, Denji is just a simple guy that wants to touch some boobs and live the normal life and those comedy bits with Denji, Aki, and Power are golden, it's my jam, it's not some forced comedy shit like FMAB or Demon Slayer, I hated the comedy in those animes, the comedy in Chainsaw Man simply works for me and Denji was a big part of it so yeah, I like Denji.

Jan 1, 2023 12:01 AM

#22

samsince04

Offline

Sep 2020

4147

Armisticee said:
Well, I like Denji not because he's "relatable," but because he's being himself. He knows he's a loser & being used and he doesn't care.
We already have the pure-hearted Protags like Naruto & Tanjiro, and the already mature like Ichigo & Yuuji.
We never get an actual caveman get thrown into a real modern world, and become dogs to be used by people around him over and over again, and still choses being an ignorant until he learns the hard way. I mean the harshest & darkest way possible.
Chainsaw Man is a story about growing up, and making your own choices. Just let Denji being Denji. I love his character the way he is.

"learns in the harshest and darkest way possible" only to go back to being the ignorant and dirty turd that I hate so much.

𝒮𝑜𝓂𝑒𝓉𝒾𝓂𝑒𝓈, 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝒸𝒶𝓃'𝓉 𝓂𝑜𝓋𝑒 𝒻𝑜𝓇𝓌𝒶𝓇𝒹 𝓌𝒾𝓉𝒽𝑜𝓊𝓉 𝒸𝓁𝑜𝓈𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝒹𝑜𝑜𝓇 𝒷𝑒𝒽𝒾𝓃𝒹 𝓎𝑜𝓊. - 𝑅𝑒𝒾 𝒦𝒾𝓇𝒾𝓎𝒶𝓂𝒶

Jan 31, 2023 12:36 AM

#23

SofiaBulga

Offline

Oct 2008

8644

I only had one single issue with Denji and that was his character design as a human.
It doesn't bother me he has no big goal, happy about actually.
I have no problem with his lack of development.
His relationship building with other characters is also something I like. Just because we work together, or heck even live together doesn't mean we should like each other or agree with each other. It's refreshing to observe how they interact.

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