| First of all, we all used to think shounen meant any manga aimed at teenagers, but the term as of late got broader. Anime has a great deal of insignificant age barriers, just as early MMA had insignificant weight divisions. If you're talking about battle shounen, then that's a whole different term. Not all anime have all those classic battle shounen tropes, but can still be addressed as shounen. So there you have it, the term shounen alone is very broad or should I say confusing. |
| Shonen is demographic,not genre. Most action manga are shonen which are targeted for teenagers. Manga like One Piece,Naruto,Kimetsu no Yaiba,Attack on Titan are targeted for teenagers. Perhaps to some people surprisingly, anime with cute pure girl and waifus are seinen and for adult such as K-On,Saki,Love Live. |
Papa_ScorchJun 28, 2020 7:58 PM
| It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person. |
| If it's bad, it's a shounen. If it's good, it's not a shounen. |
| The first few seasons of Gintama were good, thus they were not shounen. The latter part was bad, means Gintama turned into a shounen. You're welcome |
EdocchiJun 29, 2020 3:11 AM
guestkun said: TolkienFan365 said: No Shonen manga would be considered YA stuff mainly the upper teen market. Stuff made for children would be Kodomo. There is some overlap as some series like Pokemon could be consider as shonen but are aimed at younger kids but many shonen manga would be unsuitable for many kids that aren't in their upper teens. Shonen also can deal with political or harsh world views when you consider stuff like Attack on Titan or MSG the Origin are also shonen manga. I tried to make a big explanation for this but yeah, too much effort An anime can be more than one genre at the same time. There is such a thing as degrees. Choosing outliers doesn't prove a point. Next time choose Ishuzoku Reviewers' to make your argument. AOT is a weak pick Well one I haven't seen it so I can't use that. Plus pretty sure reviewers is just mainly talking about fetishes while being a borderline hentai. You were bringing up more serious topics rather than what show can flash the most 18+ and older stuff. I used AOT mainly to say that Shonen can very much deal with political themes which you argued that somehow those shonen magazine published titles would stop being shonen because they included that content. It wasn't about how shonen can be unsuitable for kids. If that is your explanation there are examples that refute it and it's not just me cherry picking. How long does it go from cherry picking to many examples? Also it's not a genre it's a target demographic. Degrees? It's published in a shonen manga therefore it's shonen. You can argue does it belong in a shonen manga but factually it is in one. That is objective fact whether or not it should be one sure is up to discussion to one's subjective views but factually it's published or targeted to certain demographics by airing in magazines that do have a certain audience make up. It's not outliers it's just that at the end of the day it's just massive over generalizations where there is many examples of not fitting this reductive view. Then people say I hate all shonen and then post the like A Silent Voice. Shonen really doesn't describe much outside of titles assumed to target this specific age range that is pretty wide in their interests. If someone says I hate shonen does it mean I hate YA writing, does it mean I hate battle/action shonen, does it mean I hate stories aimed at males? It's hard to define unlike I hate rom coms that is easy to understand. |
BilboBaggins365Jun 28, 2020 10:35 PM
-Alians- said: Zelkiiro said: A definition that literally no one adheres to is a worthless definition. No one in the history of ever uses "shounen" like this. Shounen anime/manga are titles where a hero or group of heroes works their way up some kind of power-tiering system as part of their journey while they make friends and overcome hardships along the way. Progression is the key word to shounen titles. This used to comprise almost entirely of action series, but lately we've been getting series like Death Note, Bakuman, Food Wars, Dr. Stone, and so on where the power-tiering has become more abstract and the central action doesn't revolve around much action at all. Everyone in Japan adheres to it. Don't try to ruin a definition as an outsider and claim no one uses it. Your definition is dogshit; Japan's is correct. Your definition is already awful by the fact that you're mixing action into it when action is irrelevant. That's a dumb definition. Nice heroes and power structure in Koe no Katachi, SKET Dance, Aria, Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso, Spirit Circle, GTO, Beck, Major etc Same for @Nefelupitou No one cares what your definition is. Shounen isn't a genre, stop being edgy and trying to change a definition. My friend, as I said: it won't make you look smarter Have a nice week |
| If you're a fanboy, please don't waste my time. Watch more movies, please. Perhaps, this is hell. |
| shounen is basically a magazine company or whatever that publishes manga aimed for young teens (12-17 or 18). there's no specific genre that classifies an anime as shounen like action- there are many sol shounen as well. out of all the shounen i've seen, none of them have a plot that makes you think too hard (like steins;gate or anything psychological). |
 |
| Every time when someone uses "shounen" instead of "battle shouen" I wonder if this person has extremely limited anime experience or extremely limited idea what teenage boys can be interested in ("No sexual content"? Don't make me laugh!). Also some people should learn that "genre" on MAL actually means "information tag". |
| Whenever I watch/read Shonen/Seinen,I can just feel it. |
| "When they're alive, you can enjoy watching them struggle. When they're dead, you can enjoy tearing out their guts. Tales are things you get to enjoy twice." |
-Alians- said: Zelkiiro said: A definition that literally no one adheres to is a worthless definition. No one in the history of ever uses "shounen" like this. Shounen anime/manga are titles where a hero or group of heroes works their way up some kind of power-tiering system as part of their journey while they make friends and overcome hardships along the way. Progression is the key word to shounen titles. This used to comprise almost entirely of action series, but lately we've been getting series like Death Note, Bakuman, Food Wars, Dr. Stone, and so on where the power-tiering has become more abstract and the central action doesn't revolve around much action at all. Everyone in Japan adheres to it. Don't try to ruin a definition as an outsider and claim no one uses it. Your definition is dogshit; Japan's is correct. Your definition is already awful by the fact that you're mixing action into it when action is irrelevant. That's a dumb definition. Nice heroes and power structure in Koe no Katachi, SKET Dance, Aria, Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso, Spirit Circle, GTO, Beck, Major etc Zero people on the entire planet hear the phrase "shounen anime" and think of Aria. Literally. No. One. |
 This glorious signature image was created by @Mayumi! I am the Arbiter of Absolute Truth, and here is my wisdom: "Anime was always influenced by the West. This is not news. Shoujo is the superior genre primarily aimed at young people. Harem/isekai are lazy genres that refuse any meaningful innovation. There is no 'Golden Age.' There will always be top-shelf anime. You should be watching Carole & Tuesday." |
| I don't need to define shounen, it already has a definition... Also it's funny to see always the same people arguing against the actual maning of 'shounen', insisting that noone uses the term like that. How often do you have to encounter people who tell you the exact opposite, to finally accept that you're the exception here, trying to make the word mean something different, and the vast majority out there disagrees with you and uses it with its actual meaning? How you can you convince yourself that you're right and noone actually uses the term differently, while continuously being confronted by people who definitely do use it like that, right in front of your eyes? How much can your delusions clash with reality and still be maintained? It's a fascinating experiment to watch a single individual argue against everyone else while maintaining he has the majority backing him up every step of the way... |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
You literally can't prove that. People that use this term as intended (and in this case even the source is from shounen manga magazine) will call it shounen. |
alshu said: You literally can't prove that. People that use this term as intended (and in this case even the source is from shounen manga magazine) will call it shounen. I can literlaly prove that it's false, because in this thread someone mentioned Aria on Page 1 already (post #48)... But more importantly, it's a pointless argument from the start because everyone knows that a term's meaning isn't limited to whatever the first association with it is. Even if Aria might not be the most stereotypical shounen, not the first example that jumps into people's minds, that has zero impact on whether it falls under the umbrella term 'shounen'. On the one hand it's just less popular than the more mainstream shounen, so for that reason alone many people won't think of it. How that relates to it not being shounen is beyond me. You could just as well argue that Kekkaishi isn't shounen because most people will not think of that show first when they hear the word 'shounen anime'. But, and this is the crux of the argument, once you tell people that Aria is shounen or ask them what demographic they think Aria has, most people would guess shounen or at least definitely not argue with it if you told them it is. That's because they know the actual meaning of shounen as a demographic that can include all kinds of genres. Aria doesn't have to be at the top of people's list of 'typical shounen' for them to know that it is a shounen, and to know what the term means. These whole mental gymnastics are just trying to overshadow the fact that there no real arguments in support of his position so he tries to change the argument from the definition and meaning of the term to whatever casuals 'associate' with it, to what's the most 'stereotypical' example of a shounen title. Which is just a classic example of moving the goalpost because you can't win the current argument. But whatever people associate with shounen more strongly has nothing to do with the overall meaning of the term and the types of shows it can encompass. He'd have a point if the majority, once told that Aria is shounen, would vehemently argue against it because they can't wrap their head around shounen being anything other than battle shounen. But that's only him, so he has no point at all with his mentioning of Aria. Not to mention that half a dozen other popular examples of battle shounen that contradict his ridiculous definition of it being only about power-tiering of some sort were mentioned alongside Aria and every single one of them is enough to completely dismantle his entire argument. Conveniently he only replied to one of them which he thought he had the best argument against. Which he doesn't, but even if he did, there are dozens if not hundreds of other shounen that contradict his 'definition' and need some mental gymnastics to be explained away. So no matter how you twist and turn it, his position is unarguable to anyone with even a modicum of common sense... Which makes it all the more fascinating that he still continues to try and do so. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| Gundam: The Origin, Aria, Slam Dunk, Hikaru no Go, Barakamon, Ashita no Joe, Yotsubato!, Terra e..., Touch, Sayonara Zetsubou-Sensei, and Pandora Hearts belong to my favorite Shōnen. This "Genre" has some good stuff. |
My Rereads | My Favorite Mangaka | Soylent Green Buy stuff, or buy at least your favorites if you can afford it - Don't be lame. D W-W&N 🤍 MAL is far from being my primary site for literature, which is why I’ve stopped doing single-chapter updates. Baka-Updates and two French sites are far superior—more detailed, complete, and less restrictive. They're perfect for manga, light novel, and book collectors like me, making the process much less stressful and tiring. -g- |
It's not fascinating at all. Those guys just try to force their interpretation and it's known fact that if enough people start using some word under the wrong definition...this new definition becomes legit. And many newfangled journalists who write about anime use "shounen anime" in this very limited way (and get really sour if you comment on that). I mean no way of stopping this deluge of ignorance with its "anime styled western cartoons are practically anime", "chinese anime", "old = bad, new = good", "everybody who likes old titles is just pretending or has delusions of grandeur" ect. |
| Yeah, I thought this is the debate I'd find here... Shonen is a demographic not a genre but Battle Shonen is a genre. The main issue is that Battle Shonen and Sports Shonen have considerable overlap with their tropes and archetypes leading people to try lumping them together while ignoring the fact that many series are published in Shonen magazines that don't fit that image at all because they're inconsistent with their preconceived notions. Really this whole thing reminds me of the anime or not anime debate. It's kind of pointless and comes from either a lack of information or an outright disregard for the nuances involved in an effort to simplify terminology to fit their mental image rather than being forced to rely on more concrete guidelines that sometimes have a grey area. For me the more interesting and useful debate would be: What qualifies as Battle Shonen? Because there's some potential ambiguity involved depending on your personal definition. |
-Alians- said: Zeckrin said: I honestly can't tell if this is serious or not. It's tempting, but I really don't want to bite just in case it actually turns out that you are taking the piss lol Far too many people have the superiority complex in thinking their perspective is the only one. So, his start of "a definition no one uses" might be a sign of him being deluded from reality. There's @Nefelupitou as well. With a severe personality disorder. Lighten up, my friend. You is intelligent, forgive me. Have a nice day and drink water. |
| If you're a fanboy, please don't waste my time. Watch more movies, please. Perhaps, this is hell. |
| Well, I wouldn't say it's strictly a demographic thing because plenty of shounens target female viewers, and, incidentally, LGBT viewers too. |
-Alians- said: Lighten up, my friend. "blah blah blah shounen is not a genre, shounen is about demography" 40-year old btw. Embarrassing as fuck. Jesus, you're depressing lmao. @Nefelupitou Hmmmm, okay... wanna be my friend? See you |
| If you're a fanboy, please don't waste my time. Watch more movies, please. Perhaps, this is hell. |
| Young boy action. Or young girl action? I guess that's shoujo. But the point is it can transcend its genre even if it's rooted in the same thing (from the basic standpoint of shounen young boy or girl action). Fillers are often the most shouneny things. Young kids and bad background filler stories where they go on a dumb adventures without the advent of adults or with (usually hiding in a bush spying on them to make sure they're alright), they're bad, they're for little kids. Filler is basically sub-shounen. The thing that gives shounen the worst wrap is often fillers. Decent shounen stories without including filler are often as good as anything else, seinen or anything. Making the distinction comes from ignorance or probably refusal to give shounen a chance. Because at the end of the day, no matter how complicated a seinen is on its surface, the amount of anime with actual complex psychological characters is VERY rare and often, more often than not, subtle. Seinen is also about bad guys and good guys. Sure, material should not be black and white, but if you think of something like Yu Yu Hakusho, those characters actually have complex morality and codes, they're not black and white. Nor, really, is your basic Naruto character. This defamation of shounen again seems to come from a place of deep ignorance or unwillingness to actually screen-read said characters for their value. Itachi and Sasuke--but moreso Itachi--have complex desires and motivations. Only true filler really has stories without complications or consequences, characters without weight or gravity. Let's take the most complicated character: Shinji Ikari. Why doesn't he get in the damn robot? Nobody knows, including the writer. His stubbornness just drives the show. He's not some masterpiece character of scriptwriting. He's just some guy who doesn't want to get into the robot. A show with actual complicated characters that goes beyond the norm might be Ergo Proxy. That's a complex show written behind multiple narratives and twists with characters constantly in flux like real human beings. Or Serial Experiments Lain. If we're going to judge stories we can probably judge them by how human their characters are--the peak of that being examples like Now and Then, Here and There, or This Corner of the World. Kind of funny to talk about complex narratives when your narrative is on the same footing as shounen. Attack on Titan is a shounen as well. I think Demon Slayer however does much more to transcend its genre. Attack on Titan is basic shounen--build muscles, get stronger harder tougher, defeat bigger badder enemies. Little if any mental character growth--but rather physical growth. A great shounen should have both. I don't think FMAB has mental growth, rather physical--maybe. YuYu Hakusho has physical and mental growth in spades, same with Slam Dunk. That's why those shows are legends. And something like Sailor Moon has some mental growth, which is reverted in the fifth season because of a change in head writer--as far as I can tell so far. The most ridiculous thing is putting AOT on this pedestal. The characters don't grow, it's a conspiracy anime. Which is fun. Evangelion is also a conspiracy anime. Heightened tension galore until you freak out. Serial Experiments Lain is kind of the same way. I like Elfen Lied better though. The characters grow--in insanity. Eva has that. I wish AOT at least had something like that, but then it is shounen. It's almost like people think because the animation quality is higher the story must be better. Nah. AOT has more action but its story isn't more complex than something like Promised Neverland, another conspiracy anime (or freaker thriller, as I would put it). I guess people would say shounen is about bringing down bad guys. You can learn a lot about taking down bad guys though. FMAB is that, so is Naruto, One Piece, AOT. And thrillers and horror have different elements combined as well. But what I like about Naruto and One Piece is their philosophy. Which by the way, Bleach seems to be the most basic shounen ever. Barely some physical build up and nothing else of substance. I guess it's kind of a thriller because the baddies get worse and worse? But it's just so basic. HXH is a masterpiece because it has physical buildup, psychological complexity, mental growth and it treats it characters as human. Along with the fantasy element of different worlds and enemies. It treats its characters as adults--and yet essentially, it's a shounen. Shounen isn't the bad word you're implying it to be. It's just another storytelling technique, a base for many different fantastical worlds and stories to be built and told in. You say 'shounen' like it erases all quality of that show. But a shounen is our no. 1 anime on this site. And AOT would be the same thing. AOT is just as shounen as any other shounen. There is no difference. We're all kids at heart and that's fine. There's lessons to be learned from many different modes of storytelling. I mean, the more complex brutal stories like Claymore and Berserk, yeah, they're great. Or a great love story, those are great too. It doesn't always have to be warriors and love though. And shounen has the capacity to show us complex themes in simplistic ways. It's like you're implicitly asking, what is the greatest story of all time? Some would say The Bible, or The Quran, in fiction many would say The Odyssey-The Illiad-Aeneid, or the tragedy plays of Sophocles, Euripides, Aeschylus. And many would say Shakespeare. All of them have similar modes of storytelling to all of this stuff. None of them are better or more effective unless they make the characters feel human--which is the real talent of a storyteller, communicating common themes that let you understand that person and their motivations. Hamlet is technically the ultimate classic fictional story. But every story doesn't have to be Hamlet, does it? That would be boring. Nor does every anime have to be Evangelion. Or every television show The Sopranos. Or every movie Shawshank Redemption. If you divide shounen from its fillers, it's as good a story and as worthy as anything else. I believe that. Sure, some can be trash but it's not all trash. And some gore and sci-fi and fantasy stories are trash, but not all of it. A lot of serious storytelling is trash. It's not 'how adult we can make it' but rather 'how good can the story be?' Are the characters human, do you understand them, why what do these characters, this world, the author's philosophy? And that's up to you to decide. At least quote the material before slandering it before a mass audience. Do not paint with a broad brush. Watch and discuss. Show you have at least attempted to understand before you come out with criticisms. Know the material. Do not judge a book by its cover. |
| "Shonen" for manga within Shonen Jump, and "shounen" for the genre, because it emphasizes the 'u' which sounds more weeb. Fuckin British weebs. |
| "Shonen is demographic" is a meaningless definition and therefore a meaningless answer. If it's a webcomic that panders to the same freaking demographics, it's still not shonen. Therefore shonen is NOT demographics. in other words, shonen is anything from magazines that have the word "shonen" in their title. This is a correct definition, but also absolutely meaningless with zero usefulness. It doesn't help to define anything so why would anyone use it in its "correct" form? |
Yuri_Goggleson said: "Shonen is demographic" is a meaningless definition and therefore a meaningless answer. If it's a webcomic that panders to the same freaking demographics, it's still not shonen. Therefore shonen is NOT demographics. in other words, shonen is anything from magazines that have the word "shonen" in their title. This is a correct definition, but also absolutely meaningless with zero usefulness. It doesn'help t to define anything so why would anyone use it in its "correct" form? per definition it is anything for that demographic ( regardless of what the magazine is called) but i agree that the term is essentially meaningless. The way the term is actually used is very different from its techical definition . also due to the nature of target demographics the creator of a work decides who his work is for . therefore under the technical definition litteraly anything can be shonen if the creator deems teenage boys to be his target audience. so yeah the term really needs an overhaul because in its current state its totally useless |
| Btw just to trigger people and fuel the neverending genre Vs demographic Per definition it litterally is a genre. If you want to disregard the purpose of a definition then your are essentially disregarding the purpose of language so do with that what you will. like it or dislike it but per definition it is a genre. Oxford English Dictionary : https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/290588?redirectedFrom=Shonen&#eid235986136 |
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