1Kyo said: Zeroflamez said: I haven't insulted a single person on here. I've been debating in a civil manner with everyone. Zeroflamez said: You are the first person and only person I've insulted. Zeroflamez said: As I said the only one I've insulted is you and you alone. What an honor. Zeroflamez said: Yet you make absolutely zero attempt to clarify what you meant by your original post 1Kyo said: No, it means I'm implying that I don't know where you saw that cliche. Clearly. Zeroflamez said: I've clarified why I believe you implied what you did 3 times in 3 separate posts. Just like I clarified 3 times that I did not imply it. It's pathetic to resort to taking my words out of context to find a way to argue against me. Misinterpreting a message is fine, shit happens. But I have no understanding for people who obstrusively and desperately cling to it even after being told off on multiple occasions like it is their last saving grace in the argument. You clarified 3 times telling me you did not imply it without telling me what you did imply until now. Perhaps if you told me from the beginning what you did imply instead of saying my logic makes no sense and that I'm taking your words out of context with no explanation we wouldn't be here right now. The way you wrote your first reply to this post can easily be interpreted as possibly doubting what I had said is true because you don't remember seeing it yourself personally. Because you're not questioning where I saw the cliche. You're stating you have not seen it and you don't know where I saw it. If you had questioned where I saw it instead I would have not replied the way you did. |
And still you have a problem when I express disliking of those. Zeroflamez said: It's also not an absurd comparison because a Woman does NOT KNOW that the guy next to her is a rapist. No matter how many times you repeat it is still a dumb comparison. The bully that have bullied you is already a proven bully. Zeroflamez said: Just like YOU don't know that a bully is a psychopath. Bulling (and raping) people is psychopathic behaviour. Zeroflamez said: Unless you know for a fact that the bully was diagnosed by A PROFESSIONAL and was clinically labeled a Psychopath then what you think means fuck all. Psychopathy is traditionally a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits. It is sometimes considered synonymous with sociopathy. This is not a diagnosis - just a description of antisocial behaviour. In some cases you need a professional to find the sources of this behaviour but in others said person just feels untouchable by the norms and the laws...which by the way means more severe punishment. Your defence "not all bullies are sick" (and yes I agree, most of them know pretty well what they are doing) actually means "but this is even a worst offence". A sick person has partial control but a certified healthy person acting like this has no place in this society...and should change or leave. Zeroflamez said: The fact that in your mind that it's common sense to believe all bullies are psychopaths is disturbing. Bullies are example of antisocial behaviour. They are abusing the power structures of said society and changing those structures toward their own benefit. Maybe not the most heavy violation of the social norms but it's disturbing that you are not seeing them as such. Zeroflamez said: Just as is your blind hatred towards ones that you don't even know. Let me check the dictionary again. Blind hatred: to strongly dislike something without knowing the facts, or by using false information But I know the facts. Those guys have bullied me continuously (I don't even count the random bulling by other jerks), never expressed remorse and even tried to continue decades later (black point for doing that without the protection of their ex gang bosses). Should I care why they are acting like that? Sad family history, being victim of other bullies or some sort of sickness... How should I know, why should I try fix their problems, is it even possible? Nope. A bully who knows that this it's wrong and still continues to be a bully deserves hate. Zeroflamez said: Judging by what you're saying I'm pretty sure you're just fine with all the victims of bullying that go on to shoot up their entire school. I mean as long as the bullies are dead who cares right? 1. There is only one such registered case - "the revenge of the nerd" type of story. But isn't it also a psychopathic behaviour? It's also a form of bulling...no excuse that some of the victims were bullies. This dude became bully. The worst kind of bully. 2. And all the rest of the school shootings have being done by proven bullies - so this is your answer. All the mass murders deserve hate. Also isn't it disturbing how you automatically associate hating someone with shooting this person... |
alshuJun 14, 2020 8:53 AM
| You've just been watching the same type of anime tbh. Akemi Hinazuki from Erased physically abuses her daughter . Don't tell me that this is unrealistic, a lot of parents abuse their children. Then there's Otto Heckel from Monster who's a thief, and he's not psychopathic or something. He just wants to make cash quickly and isn't that bad at heart. Honestly, if you really want to see well-written portrayal of criminals, just start watching Detective Conan. In that anime, normal people commit crimes, and there's always a good reason behind it. (By good here I don't mean that they did the right thing by committing the crime, but it makes sense why they did it. It's not just some senseless killing) Some of them commit those crimes to avenge someone, some do it for success, etc. I've rarely seen any psychopathic or thug-like criminal in it. |
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| Because they're usually a minor characters (not even the side ones) and author doesn't give a damn about those. |
alshu said: And still you have a problem when I express disliking of those. Zeroflamez said: It's also not an absurd comparison because a Woman does NOT KNOW that the guy next to her is a rapist. No matter how many times you repeat it is still a dumb comparison. The bully that have bullied you is already a proven bully. Zeroflamez said: Just like YOU don't know that a bully is a psychopath. Bulling (and raping) people is psychopathic behaviour. Zeroflamez said: Unless you know for a fact that the bully was diagnosed by A PROFESSIONAL and was clinically labeled a Psychopath then what you think means fuck all. Psychopathy is traditionally a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits. It is sometimes considered synonymous with sociopathy. This is not a diagnosis - just a description of antisocial behaviour. In some cases you need a professional to find the sources of this behaviour but in others said person just feels untouchable by the norms and the laws...which by the way means more severe punishment. Your defence "not all bullies are sick" (and yes I agree, most of them know pretty well what they are doing) actually means "but this is even a worst offence". A sick person has partial control but a certified healthy person acting like this has no place in this society...and should change or leave. Zeroflamez said: The fact that in your mind that it's common sense to believe all bullies are psychopaths is disturbing. Bullies are example of antisocial behaviour. They are abusing the power structures of said society and changing those structures toward their own benefit. Maybe not the most heavy violation of the social norms but it's disturbing that you are not seeing them as such. Zeroflamez said: Just as is your blind hatred towards ones that you don't even know. Let me check the dictionary again. Blind hatred: to strongly dislike something without knowing the facts, or by using false information But I know the facts. Those guys have bullied me continuously (I don't even count the random bulling by other jerks), never expressed remorse and even tried to continue decades later (black point for doing that without the protection of their ex gang bosses). Should I care why they are acting like that? Sad family history, being victim of other bullies or some sort of sickness... How should I know, why should I try fix their problems, is it even possible? Nope. A bully who knows that this it's wrong and still continues to be a bully deserves hate. Zeroflamez said: Judging by what you're saying I'm pretty sure you're just fine with all the victims of bullying that go on to shoot up their entire school. I mean as long as the bullies are dead who cares right? 1. There is only one such registered case - "the revenge of the nerd" type of story. But isn't it also a psychopathic behaviour? It's also a form of bulling...no excuse that some of the victims were bullies. This dude became bully. The worst kind of bully. 2. And all the rest of the school shootings have being done by proven bullies - so this is your answer. All the mass murders deserve hate. Also isn't it disturbing how you automatically associate hating someone with shooting this person... MOST school shooters WERE BULLIED. The columbine shooters WERE bullies, The Virginia tech shooter, WAS BULLIED. The Santa Barbara shooter,WAS BULLIED. There was even a study conducted by the secret service saying that a majority of school shooters were bullied. it's WAY more common than you think, "Only one registered case" yeah right. Making your own arm chair diagnosis based off of nothing but the dictionary definition of the word holds absolutely no weight. You are not a mental health professional. you don't have the credentials to make an accurate diagnosis of anyone. Psychopath and Sociopath are often mistaken for one another. How do you know whether or not the person you're calling a psychopath is a sociopath? I have no idea where you get the notion that bullies are changing the power structures of society and using them to their own benefit. They don't have that kind of power and they never did because the people always stood up and put an end to it. The Nazi's were bullies the world put an end to him. Mussolini was a bully, the Italian people put an end to him. The Japanese were bullies, the Americans made them change with force. History has shown time and time again that bullies rarely ever truly succeed. Bullies only have power over you if you let them have it. Either way there's really no sense in talking to you anymore about this. You have a jaded view and aren't open to see any other kind of perspectives when it comes to this so I'm done. It's making the discussion boring and dry. You just keep parroting the same thing over and over again. ccbestgirl1411 said: You've just been watching the same type of anime tbh. Akemi Hinazuki from Erased physically abuses her daughter . Don't tell me that this is unrealistic, a lot of parents abuse their children. Then there's Otto Heckel from Monster who's a thief, and he's not psychopathic or something. He just wants to make cash quickly and isn't that bad at heart. Honestly, if you really want to see well-written portrayal of criminals, just start watching Detective Conan. In that anime, normal people commit crimes, and there's always a good reason behind it. (By good here I don't mean that they did the right thing by committing the crime, but it makes sense why they did it. It's not just some senseless killing) Some of them commit those crimes to avenge someone, some do it for success, etc. I've rarely seen any psychopathic or thug-like criminal in it. I never said these scenarios weren't realistic like the one you mentioned. However the scenarios and escalation of these actions certainly do come off as that. For example A girl is bullied at school, goes home to be beaten by mother, then goes out to feed the stray cat which she finds said bullies kicking the shit out of. Only to then turn towards the girl and attempt to rape her. That many bad events happening back to back in a period of a day is just extremely highly unlikely. Not to mention how all of this kind of stuff seems to take place within a vacuum, because the world is completely oblivious to anything going on especially in a public setting like a school. Writing and dialogue of these scenes are very over dramatic as well. I find that most Japanese writing in general is very over dramatic and a lot of scenarios just come off as dumb. Beginning to dislike it to be honest. |
They were bullies too. Many bullies have being bullied themselves before becoming one. Another reason to hate them even more because they should've known better...but they preyed on weaker opponents just to get the revenge they couldn't get against their real adversaries. No matter how you slice it they are horrible bunch. Zeroflamez said: There was even a study conducted by the secret service saying that a majority of school shooters were bullied. it's WAY more common than you think This is funny coming from a person who denies the anime trope about that - bulling in japanese schools is way more common than you think. Zeroflamez said: "Only one registered case" yeah right. Only one registered case of direct revenge, the others were already bullies...and apparently this didn't worked for them...because bully thinking. Zeroflamez said: Making your own arm chair diagnosis based off of nothing but the dictionary definition of the word holds absolutely no weight. It's not a diagnosis tho, I mentioned that already. You don't need an official expertise when someone has "persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits". Something must be wrong with yourself if you can't identify this. Zeroflamez said: You are not a mental health professional. you don't have the credentials to make an accurate diagnosis of anyone. I don't need to be to identify such behaviour, see above. Zeroflamez said: Psychopath and Sociopath are often mistaken for one another. And some people say it's one and the same. It could be a manifestation of different issues - not necessary medical. Zeroflamez said: How do you know whether or not the person you're calling a psychopath is a sociopath? If you are at the receiving end of it you actually wouldn't care. Zeroflamez said: I have no idea where you get the notion that bullies are changing the power structures of society and using them to their own benefit. What? Forcing other people to do stuff and punishing them with no rights or real reasons to do so...? Zeroflamez said: They don't have that kind of power and they never did because the people always stood up and put an end to it. Have you ever being bullied? They carefully choose their victims to be weaker and relatively easy to crush. Zeroflamez said: The Nazi's were bullies the world put an end to him. Mussolini was a bully, the Italian people put an end to him. The Japanese were bullies, the Americans made them change with force. This is oversimplifying history...also you forgot the british, the russians and some other guys like the australians, the canadians ect. Zeroflamez said: History has shown time and time again that bullies rarely ever truly succeed. Bla, bla, bla...the system crushes the bullies (if they can't change fast enough) because they are unproductive to it. The victims have noting t do with it - they can only try using the system to protect them...usually not effectively tho. The system doesn't care for them either. They can stand up only for some moral self-satisfaction and this is it. Zeroflamez said: Bullies only have power over you if you let them have it. Nope. They will beat you and will humiliate you because they are stronger or in larger numbers or have some other tactical advantage...because this is how they act. Zeroflamez said: You have a jaded view and aren't open to see any other kind of perspectives when it comes to this so I'm done. They are jerks. What's the other perspective? Zeroflamez said: You just keep parroting the same thing over and over again. And you are not doing it too? "Bullies are people!" - duuuh, people are evil. |
alshuJun 14, 2020 3:07 PM
alshu said: They were bullies too. Many bullies have being bullied themselves before becoming one. Another reason to hate them even more because they should've known better...but they preyed on weaker opponents just to get the revenge they couldn't get against their real adversaries. No matter how you slice it they are horrible bunch. Zeroflamez said: There was even a study conducted by the secret service saying that a majority of school shooters were bullied. it's WAY more common than you think This is funny coming from a person who denies the anime trope about that - bulling in japanese schools is way more common than you think. Zeroflamez said: "Only one registered case" yeah right. Only one registered case of direct revenge, the others were already bullies...and apparently this didn't worked for them...because bully thinking. Zeroflamez said: Making your own arm chair diagnosis based off of nothing but the dictionary definition of the word holds absolutely no weight. It's not a diagnosis tho, I mentioned that already. You don't need an official expertise when someone has "persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits". Something must be wrong with yourself if you can't identify this. Zeroflamez said: You are not a mental health professional. you don't have the credentials to make an accurate diagnosis of anyone. I don't need to be to identify such behaviour, see above. Zeroflamez said: Psychopath and Sociopath are often mistaken for one another. And some people say it's one and the same. It could be a manifestation of different issues - not necessary medical. Zeroflamez said: How do you know whether or not the person you're calling a psychopath is a sociopath? If you are at the receiving end of it you actually wouldn't care. Zeroflamez said: I have no idea where you get the notion that bullies are changing the power structures of society and using them to their own benefit. What? Forcing other people to do stuff and punishing them with no rights or real reasons to do so...? Zeroflamez said: They don't have that kind of power and they never did because the people always stood up and put an end to it. Have you ever being bullied? They carefully choose their victims to be weaker and relatively easy to crush. Zeroflamez said: The Nazi's were bullies the world put an end to him. Mussolini was a bully, the Italian people put an end to him. The Japanese were bullies, the Americans made them change with force. This is oversimplifying history...also you forgot the british, the russians and some other guys like the australians, the canadians ect. Zeroflamez said: History has shown time and time again that bullies rarely ever truly succeed. Bla, bla, bla...the system crushes the bullies (if they can't change fast enough) because they are unproductive to it. The victims have noting t do with it - they can only try using the system to protect them...usually not effectively tho. The system doesn't care for them either. They can stand up only for some moral self-satisfaction and this is it. Zeroflamez said: Bullies only have power over you if you let them have it. Nope. They will beat you and will humiliate you because they are stronger or in larger numbers or have some other tactical advantage...because this is how they act. Zeroflamez said: You have a jaded view and aren't open to see any other kind of perspectives when it comes to this so I'm done. They are jerks. What's the other perspective? Zeroflamez said: You just keep parroting the same thing over and over again. And you are not doing it too? "Bullies are people!" - duuuh, people are evil. I never said bullying didn't exist in the Japanese School system. Nor am I denying that these tropes can't or don't exist. What I am denying is most Japanese writers opinions of bullies and their portrayal of them which often show them as sadistic and psychopathic individuals that are willing to kill and rape their victims. What is stopping you from standing up against the bully? Bullies only like weak people who make it EASY for them to bully. Even if you are physically weaker and lose a fight with them they are less likely to bully you again because it's too much effort to bully you and they move on to someone easier. I've planted my fist in bullies faces and they never looked in my direction again after that because I was no longer an easy target. If you choose to bow down to bullies and remain a victim that is your own decision. The problem is too many victims expect the system to fix all their problems for them. I used to be that way expecting people to fix my bully problems. It wasn't until I took things into my own hands that shit started changing. I've already told you many times I was bullied most of my life. I know how bullies operate and as I've said I've seen many bullies fold up like cowards when met with any kind of opposition. Yes the bully is to blame for doing the bullying however at some point the victim has to take responsibility for what's happening because they are LETTING these people continue to treat them this way. At the end of the day the only one that you can rely on to save you is yourself. The system didn't fail you, you failed yourself. No I'm not parroting because I've already stated many times that it is true bullies can indeed be psychopaths, I'm not denying what you're saying about that. I'm denying your blanket statement that is based off of nothing but your jaded view of people that do morally wrong things as all being psychopaths. Like before I'll say it again. I'm done talking about this. Everything that you say is from the perspective of a victim that is too angry and full of hate to be able to see any other view point. It's possible to see and understand other view points without having to agree with them. I understand and see your view point I however do not agree with it. You can't even seem to see my view point though which is my point. |
| They do it because criminals are rapey, creepy and psychotic, it's not like real life criminals and gang members are well adjusted people. |
| ν λ²λ§ μ΄μ§λ§ μ λλ‘ νλ©΄ ν λ²μ΄λ©΄ μΆ©λΆν΄μ |
| Maybe because that is what criminals and assholes do? I don't get it, it's like saying you're tired of watching fistfights in anime because all they do is just punch |
Emo_Dragon said: Wow, this was an interesting read, watching a discussion of villains in anime devolve into an argument over whether bullies are psychopaths. I don't wish to get involved in this petty squabble, I just pray that some of you get some healing and perspective in your life. As far as the OP, I definitely agree I'd like to see some more nuances in the criminals, past what general media tries to portray them as, there are some good examples, but it would definitely be nice to see more. Just because something is against the law, doesn't inherently make it immoral, so just because someone breaks the law, doesn't make them bad people, it just means they disregard the authority that attempts to control their actions. i.e. A man making alcohol for himself during the American prohibition would have been considered criminal, however, does this action alone make him evil? That's what I'm talking about. The Japanese tend to look at everything from a black and white stance when it comes to morality and why people do bad things. I find that most characters are either good or bad. With sometimes good characters turning bad or bad characters turning good. Characters are rarely ever morally grey that walk the line in between black and white truthfully. |
Zeroflamez said: I never said these scenarios weren't realistic like the one you mentioned. However the scenarios and escalation of these actions certainly do come off as that. For example A girl is bullied at school, goes home to be beaten by mother, then goes out to feed the stray cat which she finds said bullies kicking the shit out of. Only to then turn towards the girl and attempt to rape her. That many bad events happening back to back in a period of a day is just extremely highly unlikely. Not to mention how all of this kind of stuff seems to take place within a vacuum, because the world is completely oblivious to anything going on especially in a public setting like a school. Writing and dialogue of these scenes are very over dramatic as well. I find that most Japanese writing in general is very over dramatic and a lot of scenarios just come off as dumb. Beginning to dislike it to be honest. I get what you mean, but I think this is what most anime fans including me want to see, its extremely highly unlikely, but it isn't impossible. Then maybe you forgot that most of anime is unrealistic like student councils don't have that much power, and you can't just have a harem so easily, etc. Most people want to watch this unrealistic stuff, its obvious that writers are gonna cater to the masses. Honestly what do you want to see? Also bullies in Japan are really bad |
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ccbestgirl1411 said: Zeroflamez said: I never said these scenarios weren't realistic like the one you mentioned. However the scenarios and escalation of these actions certainly do come off as that. For example A girl is bullied at school, goes home to be beaten by mother, then goes out to feed the stray cat which she finds said bullies kicking the shit out of. Only to then turn towards the girl and attempt to rape her. That many bad events happening back to back in a period of a day is just extremely highly unlikely. Not to mention how all of this kind of stuff seems to take place within a vacuum, because the world is completely oblivious to anything going on especially in a public setting like a school. Writing and dialogue of these scenes are very over dramatic as well. I find that most Japanese writing in general is very over dramatic and a lot of scenarios just come off as dumb. Beginning to dislike it to be honest. I get what you mean, but I think this is what most anime fans including me want to see, its extremely highly unlikely, but it isn't impossible. Then maybe you forgot that most of anime is unrealistic like student councils don't have that much power, and you can't just have a harem so easily, etc. Most people want to watch this unrealistic stuff, its obvious that writers are gonna cater to the masses. Honestly what do you want to see? Also bullies in Japan are really bad Well after diving into it a little deeper into Japans bullying and how severe it can be. I kind of have more of an understanding of why these characters are portrayed this way. I had no idea it was that bad. I blame Japan as a society more than the bullies themselves to be honest. Cause they are being bred to be that way through societal constructs. Their whole mentality of having to conform to societal norms is a REALLY big issue there it seems. And the way they close themselves off in order to save face likely makes it hard for any victim to even want to stand up for themselves. I'm guessing kids wanting to conform would also make them align themselves with the bullies. Thank you for putting me on to some information I didn't know about instead of trying to bump heads with me and telling me I'm wrong without giving me any reason to rethink my stance. |
ZeroflamezJun 14, 2020 10:03 PM
Zeroflamez said: Well after diving into it a little deeper into Japans bullying and how severe it can be. I kind of have more of an understanding of why these characters are portrayed this way. I had no idea it was that bad. I blame Japan as a society more than the bullies themselves to be honest. Cause they are being bred to be that way through societal constructs. Their whole mentality of having to conform to societal norms is a REALLY big issue there it seems. And the way they close themselves off in order to save face likely makes it hard for any victim to even want to stand up for themselves. I'm guessing kids wanting to conform would also make them align themselves with the bullies. Thank you for putting me on to some information I didn't know about instead of trying to bump heads with me and telling me I'm wrong without giving me any reason to rethink my stance. Your welcome, I'm glad that you took time in reading that. Their society is really harsh and demanding, no wonder there are many NEETS/hikikomoris there. You might want to watch these videos One Two |
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ccbestgirl1411 said: Zeroflamez said: Well after diving into it a little deeper into Japans bullying and how severe it can be. I kind of have more of an understanding of why these characters are portrayed this way. I had no idea it was that bad. I blame Japan as a society more than the bullies themselves to be honest. Cause they are being bred to be that way through societal constructs. Their whole mentality of having to conform to societal norms is a REALLY big issue there it seems. And the way they close themselves off in order to save face likely makes it hard for any victim to even want to stand up for themselves. I'm guessing kids wanting to conform would also make them align themselves with the bullies. Thank you for putting me on to some information I didn't know about instead of trying to bump heads with me and telling me I'm wrong without giving me any reason to rethink my stance. Your welcome, I'm glad that you took time in reading that. Their society is really harsh and demanding, no wonder there are many NEETS/hikikomoris there. You might want to watch these videos One Two I'm decently familiar with NEET culture in Japan. From the videos I've seen it generally seems Hikkikimori's are the kids that never could conform to Japanese society and are depressed people. None of the videos I've seen ever brought up bullying as part of the problem, but I guess that's because they try to hide their bullying culture from the rest of the world. |
| It's not all the same though >>;; Not invested enough in the question to go through and answer thoroughly: Some interesting although perhaps not psychological study-level depictions of criminals: Ajin, Death Note, Fate/Stay Night series/spin-offs, Kimetsu No Yaiba at some point probably I guess, some episode of Mushishi probably, B the Beginning, Berserk Griffith/Guts, and Golden Kamuy (although I'm not sure this one has a moral grey area) |
Zeroflamez said: Dull_Lull said: Those people you're talking about are like minor offenders shoplifting or getting caught in possession with drugs or robbing a convenience store or something. A lot of convicted murderers are just assholes in general with issues. Domestic violence is a lot more common than you think. I didn't say every single criminal is like that. I said it's a trope for a reason because those are the behaviors a lot of serious crimes are recorded from. I never said domestic violence wasn't common. I don't know where you got that from. However the portrayal of it in Anime is always executed the same way that's my issue. a dude beating his wife isn't always intoxicated. Sometimes the wife may verbally provoke the man into hitting her in the middle of a dispute. Sometimes the woman may even attack the man while both parties are angry and she'll end up getting beat. Domestic dispute issues are not so simple most times and can be represented in different ways than the classic drunk abusive husband thing.Yes a lot of murderers are not good people. Even if this trope is based off of real life behaviors of people, the representation of it is jut not realistic most of the time because these characters are always portrayed as socio or psychopaths. For example the bullies or criminals are in a group and are doing the evil deed they are designed to do. How is there not at LEAST ONE character in the group that does not want to be apart of what's going on or even tries to attempt to stop it or call it off. How do not one of these characters have a moral compass or a conscience? You said most criminals don't advocate for women violence and yet domestic abuse is still a very much common problem. Look, to not complicate things any further, I'm just gonna say in the end it doesn't even matter at all. These asshole criminals are written that way because that's what the plot demands them to do. To create a quick conflict in the story. There's no point in fleshing out these type of throwaway characters. If a villain is important in the story then they will get fleshed out as is the case in most conflict-driven anime. These thugs simply aren't it. No need to make a short three-episode arc of an office worker getting drunk at a strip club and beating his wife at home when he's not even relevant to the story at all. |
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Zeroflamez said: What I am denying is most Japanese writers opinions of bullies and their portrayal of them which often show them as sadistic and psychopathic individuals that are willing to kill and rape their victims. The warning amount of japanese teens commuting suicide hints on this fictional image being somehow realistic. Zeroflamez said: What is stopping you from standing up against the bully? Bully's punches and his buddy standing behind you and holding your hands...usually. Zeroflamez said: Bullies only like weak people who make it EASY for them to bully. So it's victims fault not being trained for hand to hand battle and not carrying several knives and pepper spray? Zeroflamez said: Even if you are physically weaker and lose a fight with them they are less likely to bully you again because it's too much effort to bully you and they move on to someone easier. They will continue beating this person to make an example for the others. Actually my long going bulling started because a made a stand. Those dudes wanted to burn some dry leaves in the school area which was designated for our class to clean. So I said to them "Come on you guys. Please don't do that because our class will be blamed!". So I go myself some beating, those guys remembered me and my class got the blame anyway. Zeroflamez said: I've planted my fist in bullies faces and they never looked in my direction again after that because I was no longer an easy target. Those bullies of yours were weak. Zeroflamez said: If you choose to bow down to bullies and remain a victim that is your own decision. Easier said than done. You are shifting the blame to the victims. Zeroflamez said: The problem is too many victims expect the system to fix all their problems for them. Actually the know for fact that the system doesn't care about them. I guess it's part of the lesson. Zeroflamez said: I've already told you many times I was bullied most of my life. I know how bullies operate and as I've said I've seen many bullies fold up like cowards when met with any kind of opposition. Sounds to idealistic to me. Zeroflamez said: Yes the bully is to blame for doing the bullying however at some point the victim has to take responsibility for what's happening because they are LETTING these people continue to treat them this way. So it's victim's fault...I knew you would say that. Zeroflamez said: At the end of the day the only one that you can rely on to save you is yourself. Now this is true but also this is obvious. Zeroflamez said: The system didn't fail you, you failed yourself. If the system doesn't care about you thus it didn't failed you. Zeroflamez said: No I'm not parroting because I've already stated many times that it is true bullies can indeed be psychopaths, I'm not denying what you're saying about that. I'm denying your blanket statement that is based off of nothing but your jaded view of people that do morally wrong things as all being psychopaths. So in the same time I am right and wrong - thus wrong. Zeroflamez said: Everything that you say is from the perspective of a victim that is too angry and full of hate to be able to see any other view point. Wow, now I am angry, full of hatred, unrealized mass shooter, practically a psychopath...you like to imagine you opponents in stupid situations aren't you? Zeroflamez said: It's possible to see and understand other view points without having to agree with them. I understand and see your view point I however do not agree with it. You can't even seem to see my view point though which is my point. You never stated your views besides "The have their own reasons to make your life miserable." and "They are actually nice people when you know them better.". |
alshu said: Zeroflamez said: What I am denying is most Japanese writers opinions of bullies and their portrayal of them which often show them as sadistic and psychopathic individuals that are willing to kill and rape their victims. The warning amount of japanese teens commuting suicide hints on this fictional image being somehow realistic. Zeroflamez said: What is stopping you from standing up against the bully? Bully's punches and his buddy standing behind you and holding your hands...usually. Zeroflamez said: Bullies only like weak people who make it EASY for them to bully. So it's victims fault not being trained for hand to hand battle and not carrying several knives and pepper spray? Zeroflamez said: Even if you are physically weaker and lose a fight with them they are less likely to bully you again because it's too much effort to bully you and they move on to someone easier. They will continue beating this person to make an example for the others. Actually my long going bulling started because a made a stand. Those dudes wanted to burn some dry leaves in the school area which was designated for our class to clean. So I said to them "Come on you guys. Please don't do that because our class will be blamed!". So I go myself some beating, those guys remembered me and my class got the blame anyway. Zeroflamez said: I've planted my fist in bullies faces and they never looked in my direction again after that because I was no longer an easy target. Those bullies of yours were weak. Zeroflamez said: If you choose to bow down to bullies and remain a victim that is your own decision. Easier said than done. You are shifting the blame to the victims. Zeroflamez said: The problem is too many victims expect the system to fix all their problems for them. Actually the know for fact that the system doesn't care about them. I guess it's part of the lesson. Zeroflamez said: I've already told you many times I was bullied most of my life. I know how bullies operate and as I've said I've seen many bullies fold up like cowards when met with any kind of opposition. Sounds to idealistic to me. Zeroflamez said: Yes the bully is to blame for doing the bullying however at some point the victim has to take responsibility for what's happening because they are LETTING these people continue to treat them this way. So it's victim's fault...I knew you would say that. Zeroflamez said: At the end of the day the only one that you can rely on to save you is yourself. Now this is true but also this is obvious. Zeroflamez said: The system didn't fail you, you failed yourself. If the system doesn't care about you thus it didn't failed you. Zeroflamez said: No I'm not parroting because I've already stated many times that it is true bullies can indeed be psychopaths, I'm not denying what you're saying about that. I'm denying your blanket statement that is based off of nothing but your jaded view of people that do morally wrong things as all being psychopaths. So in the same time I am right and wrong - thus wrong. Zeroflamez said: Everything that you say is from the perspective of a victim that is too angry and full of hate to be able to see any other view point. Wow, now I am angry, full of hatred, unrealized mass shooter, practically a psychopath...you like to imagine you opponents in stupid situations aren't you? Zeroflamez said: It's possible to see and understand other view points without having to agree with them. I understand and see your view point I however do not agree with it. You can't even seem to see my view point though which is my point. You never stated your views besides "The have their own reasons to make your life miserable." and "They are actually nice people when you know them better.". No I had said that there are bullies that actually do have things going on behind the scenes that made them that way. Whether it is learnt behavior they saw their parents do or they get abused at home by their parents and they bully others to feel better about themselves. They could also do it because they want to be looked at as "one of the cool kids" because they have low self esteem. Am I saying that bullies past experiences excuse their ways? No. Am I saying that that there aren't bullies that do it for no other reason but because they enjoy it? No. My point is there is 2 sides to every coin and you should at least see both sides of said coin before you make any judgement. If everyone thought like you did bullies and criminals would never be able to reform due to being judged and oppressed by society from their past actions. In fact people with your outlook is why many criminals and bullies never end up reforming and going right back to past behaviors because society is constantly judging them even if they are trying to change. Do they deserve this treatment? they very well may but how can they reform if no one is willing to give them a second chance? but oppressing and judging them due to their actions is really no different than what the bullies did to their victims. Yes take what I said out of context again. I never said it was the victims fault they are being bullied, I however said that the victim does take SOME of the blame if they don't do anything about it. It's the same as someone cutting in front of you in line. Yes the guy is mainly at fault for cutting you in line but you are ALSO share some of the blame for just letting him cut in front of you and not doing anything about it. You don't need to be trained in hand to hand combat to throw a punch so that's an excuse. Yes you pleaded them to stop but the issue is you just LET them beat you up. You're contradicting yourself now by saying my bullies were weak when you said bullies are strong, looking for weak victims and you're using that to make your argument valid that Victims can't stand up to bullies because they are too weak. It is your decision if you choose to remain a victim because it is up to you to change your situation, especially if there is no one to help you or do it for you. Yes, keep on taking what I say out of context for the sake of your argument. I never even implied you were a mass shooter or a psychopath because unlike you I'm not bias. |
Zeroflamez said: My point is there is 2 sides to every coin and you should at least see both sides of said coin before you make any judgement. Yes, there should be some information about the context like if the victim provoked the bully or if it was some sort of misunderstanding but "the bully had low self-esteem" and "the victim was too weak so practicably deserved it" are ridiculous and I would say malicious. Zeroflamez said: If everyone thought like you did bullies and criminals would never be able to reform due to being judged and oppressed by society from their past actions. Your favourite trick to group me with some ominous group of people. No, I actually hope that all those horrible people will stop doing that but in my experience that happens rarely. Especially with bullies because they can easily exist in the cracks of the system. They are rarely punished at all...and you are complaining about people being too harsh to them...really? Zeroflamez said: In fact people with your outlook is why many criminals and bullies never end up reforming and going right back to past behaviors because society is constantly judging them even if they are trying to change. Not really. Reforming means to change your mind and to understand your mistakes (like from social point of view not how to make sure that they wouldn't catch you the second time). "Hey, I said that I am sorry, why they still hate me? Then I will continue to bully them!" is not an act of reformed person. It's tough to gain trust back. Also false and unfair accusations without prove happen too...but this is how people work. As mentioned before they are evil. If you are truly reformed you will stop doing your evil deeds for yourself no to please the others. Zeroflamez said: but oppressing and judging them due to their actions is really no different than what the bullies did to their victims. OK, how to show them that they did something wrong? Just telling them? The title of a bully is earned exactly by continuously ignoring such things. Zeroflamez said: It's the same as someone cutting in front of you in line. Yes the guy is mainly at fault for cutting you in line but you are ALSO share some of the blame for just letting him cut in front of you and not doing anything about it. So being polite and keeping reasonable distance (even before you know what) is my fault? I guess it is...but I automatically switch to impolite so this person will regret at least partially. And if somebody cuts you when you are driving, being the looser in such situation actually means that you prevented a collision which counts as a good deed in my book. Zeroflamez said: You don't need to be trained in hand to hand combat to throw a punch so that's an excuse. Now this is BS. You need at least a bit of practice. By the way I have this friend. He knows judo very well. In high school three guys tried to rob him and he chased them out. They catch up to him with 7 guys more, beat him and took his money (something around the price of a subway ticked). So there is this. You can't never be prepared enough. Zeroflamez said: Yes you pleaded them to stop but the issue is you just LET them beat you up. I struggled of course. Didn't worked out, this made them angry. Zeroflamez said: You're contradicting yourself now by saying my bullies were weak when you said bullies are strong, Not really. I don't even count those guys who tried to bully me but failed. They were bully wannabes. I was never bullied in high school because at that point I have learned some extra (and cowardly) tricks to the straw man defence. Also I guess I got lucky. Zeroflamez said: and you're using that to make your argument valid that Victims can't stand up to bullies because they are too weak. You can always find week enough victims: preying on smaller kids, adding numbers to your gang - those are the usual tactics. Zeroflamez said: It is your decision if you choose to remain a victim because it is up to you to change your situation, especially if there is no one to help you or do it for you. Of course I did some steps to protect myself like evading, running away, weaselling out, playing dumb, being absurdly annoying ect. My point is that I did the opposite of taking a stand (after my first failed attempt against them). Not against those guys. Victims must carefully choose their defensive tactics too. Zeroflamez said: Yes, keep on taking what I say out of context for the sake of your argument. I never even implied you were a mass shooter or a psychopath because unlike you I'm not bias. But you compared me to mass shooters, talked about my supposed blind hatred (isn't it better to use blinding hatred?) ect. It was "people like me". Which is funny because I am a very vanilla person. |
alshuJun 16, 2020 2:06 AM
alshu said: Zeroflamez said: My point is there is 2 sides to every coin and you should at least see both sides of said coin before you make any judgement. Yes, there should be some information about the context like if the victim provoked the bully or if it was some sort of misunderstanding but "the bully had low self-esteem" and "the victim was too weak so practicably deserved it" are ridiculous and I would say malicious. Zeroflamez said: If everyone thought like you did bullies and criminals would never be able to reform due to being judged and oppressed by society from their past actions. Your favourite trick to group me with some ominous group of people. No, I actually hope that all those horrible people will stop doing that but in my experience that happens rarely. Especially with bullies because they can easily exist in the cracks of the system. They are rarely punished at all...and you are complaining about people being too harsh to them...really? Zeroflamez said: In fact people with your outlook is why many criminals and bullies never end up reforming and going right back to past behaviors because society is constantly judging them even if they are trying to change. Not really. Reforming means to change your mind and to understand your mistakes (like from social point of view not how to make sure that they wouldn't catch you the second time). "Hey, I said that I am sorry, why they still hate me? Then I will continue to bully them!" is not an act of reformed person. It's tough to gain trust back. Also false and unfair accusations without prove happen too...but this is how people work. As mentioned before they are evil. If you are truly reformed you will stop doing your evil deeds for yourself no to please the others. Zeroflamez said: but oppressing and judging them due to their actions is really no different than what the bullies did to their victims. OK, how to show them that they did something wrong? Just telling them? The title of a bully is earned exactly by continuously ignoring such things. Zeroflamez said: It's the same as someone cutting in front of you in line. Yes the guy is mainly at fault for cutting you in line but you are ALSO share some of the blame for just letting him cut in front of you and not doing anything about it. So being polite and keeping reasonable distance (even before you know what) is my fault? I guess it is...but I automatically switch to impolite so this person will regret at least partially. And if somebody cuts you when you are driving, being the looser in such situation actually means that you prevented a collision which counts as a good deed in my book. Zeroflamez said: You don't need to be trained in hand to hand combat to throw a punch so that's an excuse. Now this is BS. You need at least a bit of practice. By the way I have this friend. He knows judo very well. In high school three guys tried to rob him and he chased them out. They catch up to him with 7 guys more, beat him and took his money (something around the price of a subway ticked). So there is this. You can't never be prepared enough. Zeroflamez said: Yes you pleaded them to stop but the issue is you just LET them beat you up. I struggled of course. Didn't worked out, this made them angry. Zeroflamez said: You're contradicting yourself now by saying my bullies were weak when you said bullies are strong, Not really. I don't even count those guys who tried to bully me but failed. They were bully wannabes. I was never bullied in high school because at that point I have learned some extra (and cowardly) tricks to the straw man defence. Also I guess I got lucky. Zeroflamez said: and you're using that to make your argument valid that Victims can't stand up to bullies because they are too weak. You can always find week enough victims: preying on smaller kids, adding numbers to your gang - those are the usual tactics. Zeroflamez said: It is your decision if you choose to remain a victim because it is up to you to change your situation, especially if there is no one to help you or do it for you. Of course I did some steps to protect myself like evading, running away, weaselling out, playing dumb, being absurdly annoying ect. My point is that I did the opposite of taking a stand (after my first failed attempt against them). Not against those guys. Victims must carefully choose their defensive tactics too. Zeroflamez said: Yes, keep on taking what I say out of context for the sake of your argument. I never even implied you were a mass shooter or a psychopath because unlike you I'm not bias. But you compared me to mass shooters, talked about my supposed blind hatred (isn't it better to use blinding hatred?) ect. It was "people like me". Which is funny because I am a very vanilla person. I NEVER compared you to a mass shooter. Again you're putting words in my mouth for the sake of argument. What the hell is a bully Wannabe? You're either a bully or you're not. The guys that failed to bully you will go find someone else they can bully. You're just proving my point of if you make it too much of an effort or you don't make it enjoyable for them they will move on to someone else. You can call BS all you want but you're wrong. Throwing a punch is extremely hard to fuck up even with no training. It also requires no flexibility or knowledge of body mechanics to pull off like kicking or doing a Judo throw. If you want to throw a proper and perfectly executed punch then yes that takes practice. What does being polite and keeping reasonable distance have to do with anything? it's quite obvious when someone cuts you in line. Why would the guy care if you're impolite to him or even regret what he did? at that point he got ahead in line, and you let him get away with it, he thinks you're a wimp at this point. I'm not going to address your driving scenario argument because not letting someone cut you in line and not letting someone cut you off on the road are 2 COMPLETELY different things, you don't have the chance to kill yourself and others by stopping them from cutting you in line like you would if you were on the road. That's not how it works dude. People who are trying to reform need to have FAIR treatment(not SPECIAL) in order to properly do so. The bully knows he did wrong, the criminal knows he did wrong they now want to reform. But how are they going to reform if no one gives them a fair shake at a chance to be a better person? A person can try to change for themselves all they want but if society is not willing to let them reintegrate into society as a reformed person it doesn't matter. Which then makes the person go back to old ways. WHY do you take everything I say out of context and add your own bullshit to it to validate your argument? ALL I said was that there are sometimes reasons why bullies do what they do and they aren't always just assholes who do it because it's enjoyable to them. I'm not excusing what they do, I'm not saying you should feel sorry for them, what I'm saying is you should at least understand WHY they are bullies before you label them evil or psychopaths. To understand something does not mean you have to accept it or even agree with it. I've said all I want to say on this discussion. I have no interest in taking it any further. Even if you do respond again I likely won't continue to debate this subject. You keep taking my posts out of context and using it to paint false implications. You also keep using too many anecdotal situations in your arguments and you continuously move the goal post. You say bullies are strong and pick on weak victims that can't defend themselves. I tell you I've fought bullies and got them to stop. You say "They were weak bullies".You even said yourself you don't consider bullies that failed to bully you as "real" bullies. I call you out on that and you say "weak Bullies" can just find "weaker victims". You say not everyone is trained in hand to hand combat to be able to defend themselves. I say you don't need training to throw a punch. Then you proceed to claim bullshit and that your friend knows Judo and got beat up and robbed by a bunch of untrained guys which dismantles your entire argument because if bullies with no training can beat up a victim WITH training there is no reason why a victim couldn't fight a bully with equally no training. |
Zeroflamez said: I NEVER compared you to a mass shooter. Again you're putting words in my mouth for the sake of argument. Let me quote you on this. Zeroflamez said: Judging by what you're saying I'm pretty sure you're just fine with all the victims of bullying that go on to shoot up their entire school. I mean as long as the bullies are dead who cares right? This puts me in the same group of people as those shooters. In your mind If I hate someone this immediately means that I want this person murdered along with others. Zeroflamez said: What the hell is a bully Wannabe? A person that wants to bully but is not very good at it...yet. Zeroflamez said: You're just proving my point of if you make it too much of an effort or you don't make it enjoyable for them they will move on to someone else. This is not a deep point - you are only saying the obvious. Anybody will try that. Bully victims are not that dumb as you are trying to present them. Zeroflamez said: You can call BS all you want but you're wrong. Throwing a punch is extremely hard to fuck up even with no training. It also requires no flexibility or knowledge of body mechanics to pull off like kicking or doing a Judo throw. If you want to throw a proper and perfectly executed punch then yes that takes practice. The first two things that teach you at martial arts: - How to fall on the ground without damaging yourself. - They teach you back to be able to attack people. Since you have born the society tells you that attacking people is bad. If you are a quiet nerdy person you have this mental block against violence. Yes, it can be unlocked but not always and the results are weird. Or in other words you must be calm and mentally prepared to hurt and be hurt. Even martial arts trainees panic in a simple sparing...and we are talking about dorky kids here. You are being a bit hypocrite here. Before anything else you need the mentality to be able to participate in a fight. And this requires a bit of experience. Zeroflamez said: What does being polite and keeping reasonable distance have to do with anything? it's quite obvious when someone cuts you in line. This he how he/she is able to do that - you are keeping your distance from the person before you out of politeness. You are not glued to him/her, thus there is space for other people to cut in. I was talking about politeness towards the person originally before me. Zeroflamez said: he thinks you're a wimp at this point. Nope. This person already thinks that I am a wimp since he/she is trying to cut in. Of course I will be very vocal about it (in some cases the cashier wouldn't work with line cutters)...but I guess I wouldn't go physical, only very very annoying. Zeroflamez said: That's not how it works dude. This is the only way it works - you have to decide for yourself to change. Zeroflamez said: People who are trying to reform need to have FAIR treatment(not SPECIAL) in order to properly do so. People are anything but fair. This is the same mechanism that allowed to those bullies to crush other people without punishment for certain time. Bitter irony of sorts. Actually most of the bullies go scot free for all of their life...if they play it smart enough. Zeroflamez said: The bully knows he did wrong Of course they knew and they totally enjoyed it. Zeroflamez said: But how are they going to reform if no one gives them a fair shake at a chance to be a better person? As I explained - it's an internal decision despite if people would believe or not. Trust is hard to earn back because so many offenders are only pretending to be changed. I know this guy who (afters years of struggle) got clean from drugs. Like for real. He was working in a gas station which got robbed. The cops were immediately "You was in cahoots with the robbers!". The guy wasn't. So the gas station fired him and wanted from him to return the money, threatened to sue him...they didn't because he was innocent. He just shrugged it. Now he has nice business, wife and kid. Zeroflamez said: A person can try to change for themselves all they want but if society is not willing to let them reintegrate into society as a reformed person it doesn't matter. See above, also see people are evil. Zeroflamez said: Which then makes the person go back to old ways. Nope, this is because this person didn't believe in the change in the first place. You can argue about drug addicts - it's really hard to beat an addiction, also you can argue about theft related to poverty. Those guys really need all the help they can get. But how hard is stopping being a bully? Not hurting people for a while? Why do you even compare them to people with real and heavy problems with your "portrayal of criminals"? Zeroflamez said: WHY do you take everything I say out of context and add your own bullshit to it to validate your argument? Stop replying to me than. I got only stuff that you call bullshit. Zeroflamez said: what I'm saying is you should at least understand WHY they are bullies before you label them evil or psychopaths. Because this is what the bullies are - evil psychopaths. No entirely and not irreversibly. But when they are acting like bullies they are exactly those things. Zeroflamez said: also keep using too many anecdotal situations in your arguments Those are things that happened to me or people who I know. You never talked about your own experiences except one, which didn't proved anything positive about any bully - you main point. Zeroflamez said: and you continuously move the goal post. Not really. My only point is - bullies are evil. As far as I know from second hand info, they are even worst in Japan. Zeroflamez said: I tell you I've fought bullies and got them to stop. You say "They were weak bullies". Duuuh, but only in the case you aren't some sort of self-defence instructor. Zeroflamez said: I call you out on that and you say "weak Bullies" can just find "weaker victims". Duuuh, this is what "find weaker prey" means and you are mocking those victims. Zeroflamez said: I say you don't need training to throw a punch. But you do. Zeroflamez said: Then you proceed to claim bullshit and that your friend knows Judo and got beat up and robbed by a bunch of untrained guys Never mentioned that those guys were untrained. Since they attacked first this points to the opposite. Also at least they knew how to fight in group. And my point was that even the strongest dude can be defeated with tactical advantage. Zeroflamez said: there is no reason why a victim couldn't fight a bully with equally no training - Inserting "untrained" previously is such a failed attempt for manipulation. Untrained people have lower chances with anything. - Lets go with the case when the victim has some training and wouldn't panic. Still the bully is holding the initiative. He attacks first. If suddenly he realises the he can't handle the victim he can simply run away or call for backup. The victim is always in disadvantage. |
alshuJun 17, 2020 9:47 AM
alshu said: Zeroflamez said: I NEVER compared you to a mass shooter. Again you're putting words in my mouth for the sake of argument. Let me quote you on this. Zeroflamez said: Judging by what you're saying I'm pretty sure you're just fine with all the victims of bullying that go on to shoot up their entire school. I mean as long as the bullies are dead who cares right? This puts me in the same group of people as those shooters. In your mind If I hate someone this immediately means that I want this person murdered along with others. Zeroflamez said: What the hell is a bully Wannabe? A person that wants to bully but is not very good at it...yet. Zeroflamez said: You're just proving my point of if you make it too much of an effort or you don't make it enjoyable for them they will move on to someone else. This is not a deep point - you are only saying the obvious. Anybody will try that. Bully victims are not that dumb as you are trying to present them. Zeroflamez said: You can call BS all you want but you're wrong. Throwing a punch is extremely hard to fuck up even with no training. It also requires no flexibility or knowledge of body mechanics to pull off like kicking or doing a Judo throw. If you want to throw a proper and perfectly executed punch then yes that takes practice. The first two things that teach you at martial arts: - How to fall on the ground without damaging yourself. - They teach you back to be able to attack people. Since you have born the society tells you that attacking people is bad. If you are a quiet nerdy person you have this mental block against violence. Yes, it can be unlocked but not always and the results are weird. Or in other words you must be calm and mentally prepared to hurt and be hurt. Even martial arts trainees panic in a simple sparing...and we are talking about dorky kids here. You are being a bit hypocrite here. Before anything else you need the mentality to be able to participate in a fight. And this requires a bit of experience. Zeroflamez said: What does being polite and keeping reasonable distance have to do with anything? it's quite obvious when someone cuts you in line. This he how he/she is able to do that - you are keeping your distance from the person before you out of politeness. You are not glued to him/her, thus there is space for other people to cut in. I was talking about politeness towards the person originally before me. Zeroflamez said: he thinks you're a wimp at this point. Nope. This person already thinks that I am a wimp since he/she is trying to cut in. Of course I will be very vocal about it (in some cases the cashier wouldn't work with line cutters)...but I guess I wouldn't go physical, only very very annoying. Zeroflamez said: That's not how it works dude. This is the only way it works - you have to decide for yourself to change. Zeroflamez said: People who are trying to reform need to have FAIR treatment(not SPECIAL) in order to properly do so. People are anything but fair. This is the same mechanism that allowed to those bullies to crush other people without punishment for certain time. Bitter irony of sorts. Actually most of the bullies go scot free for all of their life...if they play it smart enough. Zeroflamez said: The bully knows he did wrong Of course they knew and they totally enjoyed it. Zeroflamez said: But how are they going to reform if no one gives them a fair shake at a chance to be a better person? As I explained - it's an internal decision despite if people would believe or not. Trust is hard to earn back because so many offenders are only pretending to be changed. I know this guy who (afters years of struggle) got clean from drugs. Like for real. He was working in a gas station which got robbed. The cops were immediately "You was in cahoots with the robbers!". The guy wasn't. So the gas station fired him and wanted from him to return the money, threatened to sue him...they didn't because he was innocent. He just shrugged it. Now he has nice business, wife and kid. Zeroflamez said: A person can try to change for themselves all they want but if society is not willing to let them reintegrate into society as a reformed person it doesn't matter. See above, also see people are evil. Zeroflamez said: Which then makes the person go back to old ways. Nope, this is because this person didn't believe in the change in the first place. You can argue about drug addicts - it's really hard to beat an addiction, also you can argue about theft related to poverty. Those guys really need all the help they can get. But how hard is stopping being a bully? Not hurting people for a while? Why do you even compare them to people with real and heavy problems with your "portrayal of criminals"? Zeroflamez said: WHY do you take everything I say out of context and add your own bullshit to it to validate your argument? Stop replying to me than. I got only stuff that you call bullshit. Zeroflamez said: what I'm saying is you should at least understand WHY they are bullies before you label them evil or psychopaths. Because this is what the bullies are - evil psychopaths. No entirely and not irreversibly. But when they are acting like bullies they are exactly those things. Zeroflamez said: also keep using too many anecdotal situations in your arguments Those are things that happened to me or people who I know. You never talked about your own experiences except one, which didn't proved anything positive about any bully - you main point. Zeroflamez said: and you continuously move the goal post. Not really. My only point is - bullies are evil. As far as I know from second hand info, they are even worst in Japan. Zeroflamez said: I tell you I've fought bullies and got them to stop. You say "They were weak bullies". Duuuh, but only in the case you aren't some sort of self-defence instructor. Zeroflamez said: I call you out on that and you say "weak Bullies" can just find "weaker victims". Duuuh, this is what "find weaker prey" means and you are mocking those victims. Zeroflamez said: I say you don't need training to throw a punch. But you do. Zeroflamez said: Then you proceed to claim bullshit and that your friend knows Judo and got beat up and robbed by a bunch of untrained guys Never mentioned that those guys were untrained. Since they attacked first this points to the opposite. Also at least they knew how to fight in group. And my point was that even the strongest dude can be defeated with tactical advantage. Zeroflamez said: there is no reason why a victim couldn't fight a bully with equally no training - Inserting "untrained" previously is such a failed attempt for manipulation. Untrained people have lower chances with anything. - Lets go with the case when the victim has some training and wouldn't panic. Still the bully is holding the initiative. He attacks first. If suddenly he realises the he can't handle the victim he can simply run away or call for backup. The victim is always in disadvantage. All you've done this entire time is move the goal post, and use kettle logic. I've called you out on it time and time again and you keep doing the same shit. I grow tired of it. You've also claimed that I am a bully or an ex bully for not sharing your opinion on top of trying to tell me I'm trying to manipulate you to into agree with what I'm saying. All the while taking what I said out of context in order to discredit my argument. No I did not group you in as a school shooter. I said that quite a percentage of school shooters were indeed victims, so in those cases the victim is just as bad if not WORSE than the bully. You said that they are no longer victims and are now "bullies" because they went on to shoot up a school. I claimed you must be in support of those kinds of victims because you are now no longer calling them victims but "bullies", when they are victims that went on to become murderers but the reality is they were still victims and carried it out believing such. When I said this you claimed that only one registered case was a "revenge of the nerds" story and that they weren't real victims. I called you out on that and you provided me with nothing stating I'm wrong. This is my FINAL post to you and I mean it. Having a debate with you is a waste of time. I'll go even farther to say that there were studies on students in Japan that stated that 46% of the victims that fought back against their bully were no longer being bullied within a week. And 43% that verbally told them to stop were no longer getting bullied within a week as well. In that same study it says MOST victims don't even tell anyone that they are being bullied and allow it to continue happening. There was even an incident where a boy was being extorted by bullies and his father did nothing but BOW DOWN to said bullies and continue to give him money so his son doesn't get beat up. Eventually the boy ends up in the hospital where a son of a Yakuza boss feels sorry for the boy and Yakuza members end up confronting the bullies parents and make them stop and pay back all the money. These are "evil criminals" that are all psychopathic bullies as you say. If victims don't do anything to defend themselves or even try to let other people know how can anything be done? You do nothing but use anecdotal situations as evidence and use what if scenarios to validate your statements. "Because this is what the bullies are - evil psychopaths. No entirely and not irreversibly. But when they are acting like bullies they are exactly those things." - This is an absolutely fucking stupid statement. You can't just be a part time psychopath you are one or you're not. You're even contradicting your own belief of "All Bullies are psychopaths and evil" by default even though your statement here states otherwise. You've also said multiple times in here bullies don't change and they stay the same only to say that they can SOMETIMES change and that bullies don't ever get punished to they rarely get punished. Your whole argument is a clown show. You can't even get what the hell you're trying to debate straight. Here's the link to the study. I'm tired of wasting my time on this crap. Japan Study |
ZeroflamezJun 17, 2020 4:23 PM
Or in other words - confront your arguments. Zeroflamez said: and use kettle logic. At least I use some and you are using "protect the poor defenceless bullies!". Zeroflamez said: I've called you out on it time and time again and you keep doing the same shit. Like confronting your arguments? Hummm, déjà vu. Zeroflamez said: You've also claimed that I am a bully or an ex bully for not sharing your opinion This seems to me the only possible explanation for your stance. Zeroflamez said: on top of trying to tell me I'm trying to manipulate you to into agree with what I'm saying. Still sour about your "untrained" fiasco? Zeroflamez said: All the while taking what I said out of context in order to discredit my argument. You keep repeating "out of context" but never proved that I was...like when you said that I am OK with victims shooting up their entire school and I confronted that. This is your brand of "out of context". Zeroflamez said: No I did not group you in as a school shooter. Never? Zeroflamez said: I said that quite a percentage of school shooters were indeed victims, so in those cases the victim is just as bad if not WORSE than the bully. Yes it is. It's a form of bulling by the way, also you said that I am totally OK with them. Zeroflamez said: I claimed you must be in support of those kinds of victims because you are now no longer calling them victims but "bullies", when they are victims that went on to become murderers but the reality is they were still victims and carried it out believing such. You are rearranging the events. You fist claimed that I am OK with then and only after this we started analysing what was going on. Zeroflamez said: When I said this you claimed that only one registered case was a "revenge of the nerds" story and that they weren't real victims. I called you out on that and you provided me with nothing stating I'm wrong. Go and check out what I said then (it was only one direct reposes, in the other cases those victims tried being bullies first). ...but I guess you don't care anyway. Zeroflamez said: This is my FINAL post to you and I mean it. Promise? Zeroflamez said: Having a debate with you is a waste of time. Yep, zero bully reputations saved here. Zeroflamez said: I'll go even farther to say that there were studies on students in Japan that stated that 46% of the victims that fought back against their bully were no longer being bullied within a week. And 43% that verbally told them to stop were no longer getting bullied within a week as well. In that same study it says MOST victims don't even tell anyone that they are being bullied and allow it to continue happening. You are quoting it a bit wrong but yes struggling helps about half of the time. But how about this part - Half of all victims came to hate their victimizer(s), and many middle school victims (31.8 percent for boys and 41.7 percent for girls) came to hate themselves. After being bullied, approximately 40 percent of girls and more than one-fourth of boys were depressed and almost half of girls and one-fourth of boys became unwilling to go to school Zeroflamez said: IThere was even an incident where a boy was being extorted by bullies and his father did nothing but BOW DOWN to said bullies and continue to give him money so his son doesn't get beat up. By your logic this family totally deserved to be bullied. Zeroflamez said: where a son of a Yakuza boss feels sorry for the boy and Yakuza members end up confronting the bullies parents and make them stop and pay back all the money. When the biggest bully saved you from a small time bully. Now your are not only licking his boots but being grateful for it. Zeroflamez said: These are "evil criminals" that are all psychopathic bullies as you say. The "You are my victim now. If somebody else tries to bully you, just call me! I am your guardian angle." situation. I fail to see the positive side here. Zeroflamez said: If victims don't do anything to defend themselves or even try to let other people know how can anything be done? If you check the same survey you will see that around half of the victims reacted in some way (also half succeeded which means 25% wins against bullies) and with the time they become better and better at resisting. Still unfair that they got attacked in the first place, still totally not their fault for not being prepared for the harshness of life and still totally true that their torturers are evil jerks. Zeroflamez said: You do nothing but use anecdotal situations as evidence and use what if scenarios to validate your statements. I don't get the anecdotal part. Am I lying or something? I struggled against my bullies, it didn't helped (there are enough such cases in your statistics). I became better with time and even evaded being bullied in high school.Also way stronger people than me have being occasionally singly bullied, because life is random like this. Zeroflamez said: This is an absolutely fucking stupid statement. Maybe, but I stand behind it. Zeroflamez said: You can't just be a part time psychopath you are one or you're not. Even the most normal person can have a psychopathic episode or two, because "life is harsh" and "hell is other people". Bullies enjoy it because sadism is fun...if you don't care about moral norms and such. Zeroflamez said: You're even contradicting your own belief of "All Bullies are psychopaths and evil" by default even though your statement here states otherwise. Where is the contradiction in "bullies are evil when the act like bullies"? Zeroflamez said: You've also said multiple times in here bullies don't change and they stay the same Can you quote me on this? I said that they can change but this happens very very rarely...not the same thing as never. Zeroflamez said: only to say that they can SOMETIMES change See above. Zeroflamez said: and that bullies don't ever get punished to they rarely get punished. As far as I know this is true. Zeroflamez said: Your whole argument is a clown show. Better a clown show than your "protect the bullies" evil clown show. Zeroflamez said: You can't even get what the hell you're trying to debate straight. Something around ""Bullies are evil psycho clowns" said the sad clown.". - the bleakest circus attraction in town after "Man eating tiger eats a chicken.". Naaah, you will be back soon. |
| I have a feeling that you aren't talking about anime that focuses on criminality or bullying. |
 |
| Don't forget this one. thug delinquents (you GOTTA know they're thug delinquents): OI OI OI TEMEE, HOW DARE YOU FLIRT WITH KONEKO-CHAN, OUR SCHOOL IDOL!! THAT'S IT, IT'S TIME FOR YOUR PUMMELLIIIINGGGGG MC: YOU'RE WEAK. (beats up everyone ultra epic 3 seconds record) the one thug delinquent left: (falls on floor in cowardice) uuuUuuuuuhhhUUHHHHHH SPAAAARE MEE (snot and tears from nose as he runs off scattered) so. fucking. typical. Yet so hilarious. But yes I do agree if the role is very minimal there's not much wrong if it's just to expose, say, what a character goes through or an exposition of power. |
ChartTopper60Jun 18, 2020 3:13 AM
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
That's literally the same bullshit as when Kanye West said that slavery was a choice. Do you know about Nat Turner? The African-American slave who started a revolt of the black slaves in August of 1831? You know what happened to him after that? He was caught, trialed and lynched. The owners then persecuted the black slaves for months making it clear that any one who questioned the white man's power would be punished. How about the Revolt of Horea, CloΘca and CriΘan in Transylvania in 1784? They were captured, trialed for treason and executed by Hungarian authorities by breaking to the wheel. Two cases of people fighting against their oppressors in which they didn't back down by saying: "Aight boys, it seems like you can fight against us in order to have your freedom and rights. Guess we'll have to give them to you" The same principle applies to bullying. They prey on weaker opponents who won't fight back. And if they do, the bully won't stay there and watch his authority be squashed by someone weaker than them. They'll be more aggressive in order to break the spirit of the "rebellious" one. Imagine saying the same about Hitler: "Yeah sure, he "bullied" those Jew people because he wasn't allowed in Art School, but I'm sure he would've changed had he not killed himself in his bunker". Flash news buddy, the real world is not a TV series, not everyone can change, especially if the don't want to change. Some people are born assholes and continue to be assholes till they kick the bucket. |
_Maneki-Neko_ said: Kids and young teens can be very cruel without even knowing it, not only the "psychopathic" ones. It's often without even recognizing and reflecting on it fully. Incidental bullies or serial bullies... I am pretty OK with those who stopped doing it permanently after 2-3 warnings. _Maneki-Neko_ said: "they have to be a psycho!" and they are grounded a lot in group dynamics etc as well. They are acting like. And if your "group dynamics" means gang... _Maneki-Neko_ said: Especially when they are young, it's not that you can give them the evil-stamp. You do that only after serial offends. _Maneki-Neko_ said: They might know it's wrong, but not how serious it is and they don't recognize what kind of psychological problems they can cause in their victim. And not punishing them (like in suitable meaningful way, not beating them or being cruel to then) will help? _Maneki-Neko_ said: You don't have to care about them as an adult, but ignore their existence in the future, if they haven't changed and you aren't forced to deal with them in your present life. Yeah, the "it's someone else's problem" approach. I do exactly that...but you can't expect from me stop hating on those guys. _Maneki-Neko_ said: Psychopathy tho is a clinical diagnosis of a severe personality disorder and neither something you can grow out, because there are genetical compenents too In the past it was a medical term, not any more. Now it's a generic description used by laics. I was joking about the OP having stockholm syndrome or being an ex bully. |
| @_Maneki-Neko_ I wouldn't take anything Alshu says seriously. He's even peddling back and saying he was joking about saying I have stockholm syndrome or being an ex-bully because you called him out on the use of the word and he doesn't want to feel stupid. He meant it and he knows it. paradi_GM said: That's literally the same bullshit as when Kanye West said that slavery was a choice. Do you know about Nat Turner? The African-American slave who started a revolt of the black slaves in August of 1831? You know what happened to him after that? He was caught, trialed and lynched. The owners then persecuted the black slaves for months making it clear that any one who questioned the white man's power would be punished. How about the Revolt of Horea, CloΘca and CriΘan in Transylvania in 1784? They were captured, trialed for treason and executed by Hungarian authorities by breaking to the wheel. Two cases of people fighting against their oppressors in which they didn't back down by saying: "Aight boys, it seems like you can fight against us in order to have your freedom and rights. Guess we'll have to give them to you" The same principle applies to bullying. They prey on weaker opponents who won't fight back. And if they do, the bully won't stay there and watch his authority be squashed by someone weaker than them. They'll be more aggressive in order to break the spirit of the "rebellious" one. Imagine saying the same about Hitler: "Yeah sure, he "bullied" those Jew people because he wasn't allowed in Art School, but I'm sure he would've changed had he not killed himself in his bunker". Flash news buddy, the real world is not a TV series, not everyone can change, especially if the don't want to change. Some people are born assholes and continue to be assholes till they kick the bucket. Are you really going to sit there comparing bully victims to fucking SLAVES? then use fucking HITLER to validate your point that some people are just assholes that just won't ever change? HOW are these even anywhere in the same realm as the ones that bully and bully culture in school systems? You're just as much of a fucking nut bar as that other clown. |
ZeroflamezJun 18, 2020 10:41 AM
| Way to completely miss the point I was going for. Nice reading skills you got there. I wasn't comparing Bullying to Slavery or Hitler. I was going at how you claimed that fighting against your bullies (oppressors) is just a matter of punching them and then they'll stop. I compared victims who rose up against their oppressors. Their uprising wasn't met with flowers and acceptance, but with even greater use of force and abuse of authority. Earlier in the thread you claimed something along the lines of "if you fight back against your bully, the bully won't hurt you anymore because you showed strength". That is literally when they get the highest of thrills from bullying you, since they know you are weak, they'll love it even more when they beat it into your head that he's superior. My remark on Hitler wasn't to validate my point. The remark was a joke to segway into the actual point which was that REAL WORLD IS NOT TV. Not everyone has a REDEMPTION arc. Change is an internal process which COULD be influenced by external help, however if the person in question doesn't want to change, he is not going to do that. Like drug addicts. How you gonna completely disregard what I said and selectively pick out on things to make it seem like I compared bullying to slavery. I am not going to reply any further to this thread since you clearly lack the comprehensive skills necessary for a discussion and all your arguments boil down to nitpicking details out of context which enforce your shallow view of the world. You're calling me a clown, but you claimed that being bullied is a decision. I don't know about that one, chief. |
paradi_GM said: Way to completely miss the point I was going for. Nice reading skills you got there. I wasn't comparing Bullying to Slavery or Hitler. I was going at how you claimed that fighting against your bullies (oppressors) is just a matter of punching them and then they'll stop. I compared victims who rose up against their oppressors. Their uprising wasn't met with flowers and acceptance, but with even greater use of force and abuse of authority. Earlier in the thread you claimed something along the lines of "if you fight back against your bully, the bully won't hurt you anymore because you showed strength". That is literally when they get the highest of thrills from bullying you, since they know you are weak, they'll love it even more when they beat it into your head that he's superior. My remark on Hitler wasn't to validate my point. The remark was a joke to segway into the actual point which was that REAL WORLD IS NOT TV. Not everyone has a REDEMPTION arc. Change is an internal process which COULD be influenced by external help, however if the person in question doesn't want to change, he is not going to do that. Like drug addicts. How you gonna completely disregard what I said and selectively pick out on things to make it seem like I compared bullying to slavery. I am not going to reply any further to this thread since you clearly lack the comprehensive skills necessary for a discussion and all your arguments boil down to nitpicking details out of context which enforce your shallow view of the world. You're calling me a clown, but you claimed that being bullied is a decision. I don't know about that one, chief. And here you are without the comprehension skills to read that I said being a VICTIM is a choice at the end of the day. NOT THAT GETTING BULLIED IS A CHOICE. You have a choice to run, fight or get help. If you don't try to do either of those things how do you NOT share ANY of the blame? All you and the other clown say is "oh well even if you do fight, the bully will beat you up worse" Yes of course this is always a possibility but so is the possibility of them STOPPING. I don't understand using this kind of argument, all you're doing is claiming one possibility as the ONLY possibility and saying "Victims are victims and bullies always win, can't do nothin about it so why try?. HOW can you even compare Drug Addicts to Bullies? Drug addicts have their brain altered by substances which is why they have such a hard time stopping. That kind of statement is either comes from a place of ignorance or being uneducated. If a Bully doesn't change it's because he doesn't want to, period. A Drug addict that could want to change but they actually NEED to fulfill the craving in order to function. HOW did you not compare bullying to slavery? You literally used it in your analogy. Slaves tried to fight their oppressors and failed. Yes okay but the DIFFERENCE is Bully victims HAVE RIGHTS. Slaves DIDN'T have rights. Bully victims have authority figures that are willing to help. Slaves HAD NO authority figures to call on for help. So your whole analogy is stupid. YOU'RE telling me MY views are shallow when you're literally claiming that victims cannot do anything and that bullies will always prevail because every time I bring up defending yourself you and the other nut always say" Oh well the bully can just do X and Y and Z" and come up with a thousand excuses WHY the victim can't defend themselves or get it to stop. All you 2 have done in arguments is take any valid argument I have about how a victim can defend themselves and the positive(REALISTIC) outcomes it can bring, and just exempt it from being a possibility because it doesn't fit your world view and narrative. Fuck you and the other nut bar. You can sit around being victims together I don't give a shit |
| Most of those types of characters that I can think of are pretty much one of characters that are just there either for gag or to get beat up. For bullies the few shows I can think of where they were more reccurent like oniisama, princess sara and GTO did add more to them though I wasn't the biggest fan of how GTO ended that arc. At the end of the day I think as someone else said you need to look for more of these type of shows because even outside of anime I can't think of many realistic portrayal of bullies out there, it's just an easy character type to hate. Also even though I'm not his biggest fan, bakugo from mha seems like a pretty good examle of a bully from a very well known anime to have more to his character. |
JoyBoy_316Jun 18, 2020 7:16 PM
JoyBoy_316 said: Most of those types of characters that I can think of are pretty much one of characters that are just there either for gag or to get beat up. For bullies the few shows I can think of where they were more reccurent like oniisama, princess sara and GTO did add more to them though I wasn't the biggest fan of how GTO ended that arc. At the end of the day I think as someone else said you need to look for more of these type of shows because even outside of anime I can't think of many realistic portrayal of bullies out there, it's just an easy character type to hate. Also even though I'm not his biggest fan, bakugo from mha seems like a pretty good examle of the bully from the a very well known anime to have more to his character. Yes GTO had some interesting portrayals Hajime No Ippo did a pretty good job as well. |
Zeroflamez said: JoyBoy_316 said: Most of those types of characters that I can think of are pretty much one of characters that are just there either for gag or to get beat up. For bullies the few shows I can think of where they were more reccurent like oniisama, princess sara and GTO did add more to them though I wasn't the biggest fan of how GTO ended that arc. At the end of the day I think as someone else said you need to look for more of these type of shows because even outside of anime I can't think of many realistic portrayal of bullies out there, it's just an easy character type to hate. Also even though I'm not his biggest fan, bakugo from mha seems like a pretty good examle of the bully from the a very well known anime to have more to his character. Yes GTO had some interesting portrayals Hajime No Ippo did a pretty good job as well. Ah yes ippo's best friend he actually became such a nice guy later on that I forgot he started out as ippo's bully. |
JoyBoy_316 said: Zeroflamez said: Yes GTO had some interesting portrayals Hajime No Ippo did a pretty good job as well. Ah yes ippo's best friend he actually became such a nice guy later on that I forgot he started out as ippo's bully. I don't know if you read the manga but he also had a small arc later on which shows him struggling with his past behavior and feeling like he doesn't deserve to be Ippo's friend and has a hard time forgiving himself for what he did. |
| They always say "TEMEEEEE!!!" and then get their ass kicked. The simple reason is they want to introduce a bad guy for the hero to defeat without raising some kind of complex moral issue. No depth, no sad backstory. Not every villain can be Johan Liebert. Darwin's Game actually made this archtype "dumb bully guy" be it's main villain (Wang). It's pretty absurd. And it's as bad as it sounds. |
Haunt-botJun 19, 2020 2:27 PM
| Shoot first, think never. |
Zeroflamez said: JoyBoy_316 said: Ah yes ippo's best friend he actually became such a nice guy later on that I forgot he started out as ippo's bully. I don't know if you read the manga but he also had a small arc later on which shows him struggling with his past behavior and feeling like he doesn't deserve to be Ippo's friend and has a hard time forgiving himself for what he did. No not yet I had planned to directly start it after finishing rising but I still haven't the number of chapters is still a bit intimidating but I still plan to do it at some point and I'm happy to hear that his character will still have such an arc so far in the story. |
| It depends on what you expect from a villain. Give an example of the villains in anime that were done right, according to you. And I might be able to recommend you some anime. |
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JoyBoy_316 said: Zeroflamez said: Yes GTO had some interesting portrayals Hajime No Ippo did a pretty good job as well. Ah yes ippo's best friend he actually became such a nice guy later on that I forgot he started out as ippo's bully. What the fuck why is my instinct on a fucking ROLL!?!? ARE YOU talking about THIS guy!?  God my instinct is AMAZING! I know next to nothing about Hajime no Ippo except boxing and being loved by so many (I don't even know the synopsis). I looked at this character once and thought "oh he looks like the bully-type against Ippo, but something tells me that later on in the series he will slowly start to grow with Ippo probably out of fights, motivation, etc and they will grow to be close friends." Oddly specific, I know, but I always get these feelings. Welp, guess I'm about to begin this anime, lolol! |
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| @ChartTopper60 I guess you were somehow close but no this guy is ippo's mentor takamura mamoru he is kind of a jackass who likes to tease his juniors a lot and the main comic relief in the series but not a bully, actually he is the one who saved ippo from said bullies at the start of the story and inspired him to try boxing. |
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