New
Mar 26, 2018 6:49 PM
#1
I kept reading about how popular HunterXHunter was so I thought I would give it a try. I started watching the 2011 version and I was thinking that I remembered it being older, and I thought the character design was a little weird for 2011. I got up to epi 12 when I realized that yes indeed there was a 1999 version. I've watched 2 episodes of the 1999 version. And so far my analysis is the 1999 version seems to be more in depth. The story of the fox bear club was taken out of the 2011 version. But in some ways the 2011 version feels more super hero and action packed. I'm having trouble deciding which one I should watch... Which one do you guys think is better? |
Mar 26, 2018 6:55 PM
#2
Oh @Snufkin where are you my boy I personally liked the newer one more, but I can't remember the older ones anymore since I watched it during my TV days in local dub smh though, I'm not much of a HxH fan anyway. |
-Lofn-Mar 26, 2018 7:05 PM
๐๐๐ซ๐ซ๐ ๐ฑ๐ฌ๐ฒ๐ ๐ฅ ๐ถ๐ฌ๐ฒ, ๐๐๐ซ๐ฑ๐ฆ๐ซ' ๐ถ๐ฌ๐ฒ ๐ด๐ฆ๐ฑ๐ฅ ๐๐ฉ๐ฉ ๐ช๐ถ ๐ช๐ฆ๐ค๐ฅ๐ฑ ______________________ |
Mar 26, 2018 6:57 PM
#3
Eh I watched both at roughly the same time and they're about the same. Some events and characters are glaized over in the remake since the original series spent a lot of time on them but you're going to have to switch over to the 2011 version eventually anyway (unless you drop it). That's mostly for the introduction arc though and after that all that really changes is the order some events are introduced. |
Mar 26, 2018 7:00 PM
#4
i prefer ะฝะตั x ะฝะตั the best tbh. i like when ugolnik and ubitu try to save the chimera ants from the gulag |
Edward Elric > your waifu |
Mar 26, 2018 7:00 PM
#5
I'd go with 2011 version mainly because there isn't a disconnect when you would have to transition arcs (you know the ones i'm talking about, people-who-have-seen-the-show). |
I'm a shitposter for fun |
Mar 26, 2018 7:01 PM
#6
I can't vouch for either version personally, but I've only heard mild praises for the 1999 version and endless fellating for the 2011 version, soooo... |
This glorious signature image was created by @Mayumi! I am the Arbiter of Absolute Truth, and here is my wisdom: "Anime was always influenced by the West. This is not news. Shoujo is the superior genre primarily aimed at young people. Harem/isekai are lazy genres that refuse any meaningful innovation. There is no 'Golden Age.' There will always be top-shelf anime. You should be watching Carole & Tuesday." |
Mar 26, 2018 7:17 PM
#7
Aside from the techniques animation, 1999 is far better, the soundtrack made me feel like I was inside the anime. The 2011 version has Chimera Ants so it is also good, but when I compare the Hunter Exam and York Shin, 1999 made a better job. |
Mar 26, 2018 7:19 PM
#8
2011. Season 5. Enough said. But I will say the exam arc wasn't nearly as good as 1999 so it's honestly split |
Mar 26, 2018 7:21 PM
#9
Mar 26, 2018 7:28 PM
#10
I agree with you no matter what people says. |
๐๐๐ซ๐ซ๐ ๐ฑ๐ฌ๐ฒ๐ ๐ฅ ๐ถ๐ฌ๐ฒ, ๐๐๐ซ๐ฑ๐ฆ๐ซ' ๐ถ๐ฌ๐ฒ ๐ด๐ฆ๐ฑ๐ฅ ๐๐ฉ๐ฉ ๐ช๐ถ ๐ช๐ฆ๐ค๐ฅ๐ฑ ______________________ |
Mar 26, 2018 7:29 PM
#11
You just need to read this excellent article to know which version is the superior one ;) |
Mar 26, 2018 7:56 PM
#12
I’m conflicted. 1999 one seems pretty fun to watch, judging from the style and writing. 2011 one seems pretty serious and action-y, judging from the character design and fighting scenes. I’ll say both and leave it there, OP. |
Mar 26, 2018 8:00 PM
#13
Both are fantastic but the newer one covers my favorite arc and the older one doesn't so I prefer it for that reason. |
I probably regret this post by now. |
Mar 26, 2018 8:01 PM
#14
I love both, but the original one has the best arc in my opinion (the hunter exam), i loved seeing the quartet together and the funny scenes, also the fights, Hisoka first appearance and the exams/examinators, etc. The Hunter Arc on the 2011 version was just, meh, i felt like it was done kinda rushed, but after that i prefer the continuation of the 2011 anime, although the phantom troupe arc was 50/50 to each other. |
-Elegant-Mar 26, 2018 8:06 PM
Mar 27, 2018 1:19 AM
#15
The 1999 one is way better as a story and character study and has equally great action (although I personally prefer the art and movement in 1999, but I've seen a lot of people love 2011's animation/fight scenes), the 2011 one has a more "shounen feel" to it and all of the characters have been made into more of the expected shounen type characters you've come to expect, if that's what you like more than anything in the world you'd go with that one, if you prefer interesting and new characters, great cinematic scenes, heartbreaking moments and attention to detail go with 1999. You can always switch over to 2011 once the first OVA (2002) is done, they're both pretty much equally good from that point on. I also wrote a whole thing about it linked below but it's pretty spoiler heavy. @-Lofn- Danks @Glenfinnan That's what I read after watching 90 episodes of 2011 and made me start 1999 despite watching 2011 being a chore. |
197y37h1yho9Mar 27, 2018 1:36 AM
Mar 27, 2018 1:20 AM
#16
both suck ass and are generic battle shonen |
Mar 27, 2018 1:36 AM
#17
They're essentially the same thing (except that 2011 adapts 2 more arcs). But I think all the arcs pre-Chimera Ant arc were done better in the 1999 version, except for the Heaven's Arena arc which I thought was better in the 2011 version. I also think that 1999's music is better than 2011's, and that Killua's design looks better in the 1999 version too. |
wildhoodMar 27, 2018 9:31 AM
Mar 27, 2018 2:58 AM
#18
IMO the 1999 version is better, it just didn't have the fortune of adapting the Chimera Ant arc. |
Justองอฃอซอจอฬฐอออ Monองฬฟฬ ฬออฬฎอiฬอจฬ ฬอคฬฬอาฬฬชkaออฬออออฬฑฬฏ๏ปฟ |
Mar 27, 2018 3:02 AM
#19
Watch the 2011 one it Hosen the have filler and it adapts a much larger part of the manga also the begining doesn't really shows the entire appeal of hxh so make sure to watch at least to the end of the hunter exam arc until u decide whether or not u ll watch it all |
Mar 27, 2018 3:03 AM
#20
-Lofn- said: U got that shit taste then my boyyyy!!!I'm not much of a HxH fan anyway. |
Mar 27, 2018 3:56 AM
#21
Jojo>Joe>HxH :^) you haven't seen shit yet |
๐๐๐ซ๐ซ๐ ๐ฑ๐ฌ๐ฒ๐ ๐ฅ ๐ถ๐ฌ๐ฒ, ๐๐๐ซ๐ฑ๐ฆ๐ซ' ๐ถ๐ฌ๐ฒ ๐ด๐ฆ๐ฑ๐ฅ ๐๐ฉ๐ฉ ๐ช๐ถ ๐ช๐ฆ๐ค๐ฅ๐ฑ ______________________ |
Mar 27, 2018 4:00 AM
#22
1999 version doesn't contain the worst shounen arc in existence and it has better art/animation and music. The 2011 version is just horrible. Don't listen to fanboi. |
Mar 27, 2018 4:03 AM
#23
Mar 27, 2018 6:11 AM
#24
@Snufkin that article represents exactly what I felt after watching both versions, I felt so relieved when I found it and realized (for the first time) I was not the only one thinking the same. I love how accurate it is. Alkasul said: IMO the 1999 version is better, it just didn't have the fortune of adapting the Chimera Ant arc. To me it was actually a divine blessing that 1999 never got that far, since the storyline of that arc ruined dramatically the great experience I was having in an irreversible way. |
SoldierDreamMar 27, 2018 6:34 AM
Mar 27, 2018 6:34 AM
#25
The 2011 of course, best animation, and include the Chimera saga. |
Mar 27, 2018 6:36 AM
#26
Glenfinnan said: Oh yeah, the ant arc does more than being a self contained bad arc (like greed island), it straight up retcons some of the best things about the show into non-existence.@Snufkin that article represents exactly what I felt after watching both versions, I felt so relieved when I found it and realized (for the first time) I was not the only one thinking the same. I love how accurate it is. Alkasul said: IMO the 1999 version is better, it just didn't have the fortune of adapting the Chimera Ant arc. To me it was actually a divine blessing that 1999 never got that far. I would have today one 10 less in my list if that would have been the case, since the storyline of that arc ruined dramatically the great experience I was having in an irreversible way. |
Mar 27, 2018 9:11 AM
#27
Cbr_Star said: I kept reading about how popular HunterXHunter was so I thought I would give it a try. I started watching the 2011 version and I was thinking that I remembered it being older, and I thought the character design was a little weird for 2011. I got up to epi 12 when I realized that yes indeed there was a 1999 version. I've watched 2 episodes of the 1999 version. And so far my analysis is the 1999 version seems to be more in depth. The story of the fox bear club was taken out of the 2011 version. But in some ways the 2011 version feels more super hero and action packed. I'm having trouble deciding which one I should watch... Which one do you guys think is better? They are both fantastic, I recommend watching them both. 9/10 on 1999, 10/10 on 2011 for me. Yes the first few episodes, 1999 has the upper hand. Through the Phantom Troupe arc, the 1999 & 2011 are literally neck and neck, but 2011 starts to really shine beyond 1999 during the Greed Island arc, and ofc only 2011 had adapted the Chimera Ant arc since it hadn't yet been written when the 1999 version was adapted. But again - both are really worth watching. I actually watched them side-by-side. As in I'd watch a few eps of 1999, then a few eps of 2011. I kept them at the same point in the story as each other to compare the differences. It was really interesting. But you're doing yourself a bit of a disservice if you only watch one and not the other. Its arguably one of the best if not the best shounen of all time. |
Mar 27, 2018 9:16 AM
#28
2011 has more content and was just better overall |
Mar 27, 2018 10:35 AM
#29
Wew, blasphemy. You put Jojo over Joe? Son Im severely disappointed |
Mar 27, 2018 10:50 AM
#30
What is that question even? I think that it's safe to say that HxH 2011 is better in every single aspect. |
Mar 27, 2018 10:53 AM
#31
Why not both?? I almost completed the 2011 one, I'm not sure if I'll watch the older one but maybe I will. Anyway, I'm sure BOTH of them are good. It's up to you which you decide to watch, but if you like one then you should watch the other one too and decide for yourself which is best. I'd say the newer one is better but I could be wrong since I didn't try the older one. |
Mar 27, 2018 10:58 AM
#32
2011 and it ain't even close. Just wish they didn't change the start of the story. |
Mar 27, 2018 11:02 AM
#33
Mar 27, 2018 11:21 AM
#34
I don't know why many are considering the chimera ant arc as a comparison factor when 99 didn't adapt it because it still didn't exist in the manga. That arc (and election arc) are non-factors, you can only make a comparison among the arcs both versions covered, this is, up until the end of Greed Island. 1999 did better all the first four, while 2011 did better Greed Island, but that isn't saying much because that arc wasn't good to begin with. |
Mar 27, 2018 2:14 PM
#35
The original manga since it's in a much more easily burnable format. |
Mar 27, 2018 2:16 PM
#36
Mar 27, 2018 2:17 PM
#37
newazurill said: Snufkin said: Glenfinnan said: @Snufkin that article represents exactly what I felt after watching both versions, I felt so relieved when I found it and realized (for the first time) I was not the only one thinking the same. I love how accurate it is. Alkasul said: IMO the 1999 version is better, it just didn't have the fortune of adapting the Chimera Ant arc. To me it was actually a divine blessing that 1999 never got that far. I would have today one 10 less in my list if that would have been the case, since the storyline of that arc ruined dramatically the great experience I was having in an irreversible way. What does it retcon? Seemed pretty consistent with what came before. taken from a previous conversation somewhere linked here if you want to know what got me talking about it. Me: "When I watched episode 94 it ruined Killua for me, I thought in the hunter exam it was revealed Ilumi had used his bloodlust on his brother a lot at a young age to traumatise him into being unable to put himself into dangerous. unknown situations, a showing of Ilumi’s twisted love for his family. He wants to keep Killua safe but does something terrible to him to guarantee that safety. It was pretty much the most clockwork orange thing I’ve ever seen in anime. When episode 94 rolled around it revealed that it was actually just a hypnosis needle all along, the progress he’d been making as a character didn’t help him in overcoming his weakness, he simply removed the needle and it cured him. His personal quest ended in a dead end, and it burned down the sights and monuments along the path it took so that if you’d ever want to take the journey again it would be way less enjoyable. The relationship between Ilumi and Killua also became way less interesting, I lost interest in seeing him standing up to his brother(‘s bloodlust) in person, and Ilumi lost a lot of his threatening insanity, since if something went wrong with “treating” Killua he could easily remove the needle to fix him up again."" Me: "Technically its not cannon in 1999 though, so he’s still one of my favorite characters from the show in that version, with some of the most interesting character dynamics/interactions in the show." Guy I was talking to: "Interesting insight, but I must disagree. Killua’s character arc and weakness didn’t end with the removal of a the needle- it simply indicated a shift that Killua was starting to forge his own path and a key moment in his spiritual growth. I also disagree in the sense that Killua’s arc is much more closely tied to that of Gon’s- and that his actions in the CA arc were more of a mirror to his friend, to the point that he went to being the figurative “light” for Gon at the end when the latter was blinded by his own pure rage. I’d also add that Killua and Illumi had less of a relationship and more of a power hierarchy that was controlled by Illumi for much of his life in the hopes of manipulating his younger brother to his bidding (and by extension, the self-preservation command in his hidden needle was perfectly in line with that aim.) Again, when Killua removed the needle, the importance of it was not an end, but rather a beginning of where he’d begin to fight for his own reasons and not hesitate for any reason. I could certainly talk much further at length about this specific point, but I’d say his journey truly began in some sense right there rather than ended. Thanks for thoughts!" Me: "My main love for Illumi as a character was based on my assumption he did what he did to Killua out of love and protection, I never finished the show or the manga, and what I’ve read up on in the wiki didn’t really stick, but I had read that Ilumi wanted Killua to have access to some sort of wish fulfilling demon-face niece. I really do prefer the version I came up with when I hadn’t been given all the information though, just like with Killua’s trauma. I saw every step he took to making his own decisions and creating friendships as part of his journey to free himself from his past, and eventually free himself from it by overcoming it with courage and love. When the needle scene started I hoped to see him fight despite his brother tormenting his mind, and possibly breaking down/freezing up several times during or after it, slowly gaining the ability over several fights later on to resist and overcome his past until it wasn’t a problem anymore. I expected something very different; a sudden disapearance of his trauma by the power of wanting to protect his friend (maybe because I’d also been watching Fairy Tail). What I got felt like a retcon of one of my favorite parts of both Killua’s and Ilumi’s characters. I’m happy other people were able to get something they loved out of it though." Killua was retconned into not being traumatised but just having a needle he needed to remove to fix his problems, this also made Illumi less interesting since he lost the feat of traumatising Killua. |
Mar 27, 2018 2:18 PM
#38
I didn't watch the original 1999 but I did read the manga and watch the 2011 version and pretty much the only thing they took out is the bear story, but that is. Even then, they show it again later on in the seri so I'd say watch the 2011 version |
Mar 27, 2018 2:31 PM
#39
Oh god, all the 2011 exclusive watchers are gonna make this poll so heavily in favor of watching 2011, it's watched by like 200% more people than 1999 or something. |
Mar 27, 2018 4:01 PM
#40
Both are great, but the 2011 version has the most beautiful and deepest arc of the show, so I suggest you to watch the 2011 one. That said, if we're only talking about the arcs of the manga that has been adapted by both versions, I'd say overall they're pretty equal, with some arcs being done better in the 1999 version, and viceversa. Even so, they provide quite a different experience: the 1999 version is slow paced and takes its time to better explore the relationships within the characters through the use of well done fillers, while the 2011 one is much more fast paced and it strictly follows the manga. The old adaptation has a darker tone since the beginning, while the 2011 one starts with an innocent tone visually, and mantains it expecially on the more lighthearted arcs, while if we're talking about the soundtrack, it can become very dark when the situation requires it. Then again, the 2011 version has my favourite arc ever so I must recommend you that version :) |
Mar 27, 2018 5:24 PM
#41
Man the responses are so 50-50 it's hard to decide what to do... So far I'm gathering the 1999 version tells the first half hunter arc better, and some would argue has better quality animation with lighting etc. But the 2011 goes further into the story line. I should watch both, but knowing kinda what happens next drives me ADD crazy lol |
Mar 28, 2018 12:19 AM
#42
2011 by a huge distance, it covers the best arc in the series so it's easy. |
Mar 28, 2018 12:26 AM
#43
Watch 2011, i would rate the 99 version a 7, meanwhile i rated the 2011 a 10/10....1999 has fillers which ruin some character interaction and outdated animation, plus it's a castrated adaptation 2011 is total canon to the manga and just much better overall... From 1999 just watch the fist episode where an important character is presented |
DortMar 28, 2018 12:33 AM
Mar 28, 2018 12:29 AM
#44
newazurill said: Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: Glenfinnan said: Oh yeah, the ant arc does more than being a self contained bad arc (like greed island), it straight up retcons some of the best things about the show into non-existence.@Snufkin that article represents exactly what I felt after watching both versions, I felt so relieved when I found it and realized (for the first time) I was not the only one thinking the same. I love how accurate it is. Alkasul said: IMO the 1999 version is better, it just didn't have the fortune of adapting the Chimera Ant arc. To me it was actually a divine blessing that 1999 never got that far. I would have today one 10 less in my list if that would have been the case, since the storyline of that arc ruined dramatically the great experience I was having in an irreversible way. What does it retcon? Seemed pretty consistent with what came before. taken from a previous conversation somewhere linked here if you want to know what got me talking about it. Me: "When I watched episode 94 it ruined Killua for me, I thought in the hunter exam it was revealed Ilumi had used his bloodlust on his brother a lot at a young age to traumatise him into being unable to put himself into dangerous. unknown situations, a showing of Ilumi’s twisted love for his family. He wants to keep Killua safe but does something terrible to him to guarantee that safety. It was pretty much the most clockwork orange thing I’ve ever seen in anime. When episode 94 rolled around it revealed that it was actually just a hypnosis needle all along, the progress he’d been making as a character didn’t help him in overcoming his weakness, he simply removed the needle and it cured him. His personal quest ended in a dead end, and it burned down the sights and monuments along the path it took so that if you’d ever want to take the journey again it would be way less enjoyable. The relationship between Ilumi and Killua also became way less interesting, I lost interest in seeing him standing up to his brother(‘s bloodlust) in person, and Ilumi lost a lot of his threatening insanity, since if something went wrong with “treating” Killua he could easily remove the needle to fix him up again."" Me: "Technically its not cannon in 1999 though, so he’s still one of my favorite characters from the show in that version, with some of the most interesting character dynamics/interactions in the show." Guy I was talking to: "Interesting insight, but I must disagree. Killua’s character arc and weakness didn’t end with the removal of a the needle- it simply indicated a shift that Killua was starting to forge his own path and a key moment in his spiritual growth. I also disagree in the sense that Killua’s arc is much more closely tied to that of Gon’s- and that his actions in the CA arc were more of a mirror to his friend, to the point that he went to being the figurative “light” for Gon at the end when the latter was blinded by his own pure rage. I’d also add that Killua and Illumi had less of a relationship and more of a power hierarchy that was controlled by Illumi for much of his life in the hopes of manipulating his younger brother to his bidding (and by extension, the self-preservation command in his hidden needle was perfectly in line with that aim.) Again, when Killua removed the needle, the importance of it was not an end, but rather a beginning of where he’d begin to fight for his own reasons and not hesitate for any reason. I could certainly talk much further at length about this specific point, but I’d say his journey truly began in some sense right there rather than ended. Thanks for thoughts!" Me: "My main love for Illumi as a character was based on my assumption he did what he did to Killua out of love and protection, I never finished the show or the manga, and what I’ve read up on in the wiki didn’t really stick, but I had read that Ilumi wanted Killua to have access to some sort of wish fulfilling demon-face niece. I really do prefer the version I came up with when I hadn’t been given all the information though, just like with Killua’s trauma. I saw every step he took to making his own decisions and creating friendships as part of his journey to free himself from his past, and eventually free himself from it by overcoming it with courage and love. When the needle scene started I hoped to see him fight despite his brother tormenting his mind, and possibly breaking down/freezing up several times during or after it, slowly gaining the ability over several fights later on to resist and overcome his past until it wasn’t a problem anymore. I expected something very different; a sudden disapearance of his trauma by the power of wanting to protect his friend (maybe because I’d also been watching Fairy Tail). What I got felt like a retcon of one of my favorite parts of both Killua’s and Ilumi’s characters. I’m happy other people were able to get something they loved out of it though." Killua was retconned into not being traumatised but just having a needle he needed to remove to fix his problems, this also made Illumi less interesting since he lost the feat of traumatising Killua. Sounds more like it just didn't go the way you prefer rather than being a retcon. I mean I understand why you're upset but I personally side with the guy arguing with you on the matter. It didn't just "not go the way I wanted it to go", Illumi using hypnosis on Killua was not set up at all, the reveal of Illumi being able to use hypnotism is in that very scene, at the time of the original scene bloodlust and the terrifying nature of it was set up, the only logical conclusion I could come up with was that Illumi used that, and not some unintroduced power. At the time the demon face wishing well was also not introduced. The information you have to work with can be used to come up with reasons for why people did these things and what happened. Saying it was an (at the time) unintroduced power is a retcon, and saying he did for an (at the time) completely impossible to decipher reason is a retcon, it meets the definitions I know of it anyway, I don't know what definition you'd have to use to not have it be a retcon. What definition are you using? *edit* Oh, you're using one that says it need to be inconsistent with what has come before, I think that's how some people use it but it's not really the definition or proper way to use it, I think at least, I'm Dutch, maybe America just started using the word differently and it became accepted that retcon = inconsistency. *end edit* @newazurill and I guess Illumi did say "I made sure to hammer that lesson home" or something along those lines in the manga, and he said "I drilled that into you" in 2011, which implies it wasn't really something simply implanted into him, but something Killua got through training and conditioning, so saying it was implanted goes against that implication, but it's not something I'd actually call inconsistent, it just retcons Illumi into being a liar. |
197y37h1yho9Mar 28, 2018 1:42 AM
Mar 28, 2018 2:12 AM
#45
newazurill said: Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: Glenfinnan said: Oh yeah, the ant arc does more than being a self contained bad arc (like greed island), it straight up retcons some of the best things about the show into non-existence.@Snufkin that article represents exactly what I felt after watching both versions, I felt so relieved when I found it and realized (for the first time) I was not the only one thinking the same. I love how accurate it is. Alkasul said: IMO the 1999 version is better, it just didn't have the fortune of adapting the Chimera Ant arc. To me it was actually a divine blessing that 1999 never got that far. I would have today one 10 less in my list if that would have been the case, since the storyline of that arc ruined dramatically the great experience I was having in an irreversible way. What does it retcon? Seemed pretty consistent with what came before. taken from a previous conversation somewhere linked here if you want to know what got me talking about it. Me: "When I watched episode 94 it ruined Killua for me, I thought in the hunter exam it was revealed Ilumi had used his bloodlust on his brother a lot at a young age to traumatise him into being unable to put himself into dangerous. unknown situations, a showing of Ilumi’s twisted love for his family. He wants to keep Killua safe but does something terrible to him to guarantee that safety. It was pretty much the most clockwork orange thing I’ve ever seen in anime. When episode 94 rolled around it revealed that it was actually just a hypnosis needle all along, the progress he’d been making as a character didn’t help him in overcoming his weakness, he simply removed the needle and it cured him. His personal quest ended in a dead end, and it burned down the sights and monuments along the path it took so that if you’d ever want to take the journey again it would be way less enjoyable. The relationship between Ilumi and Killua also became way less interesting, I lost interest in seeing him standing up to his brother(‘s bloodlust) in person, and Ilumi lost a lot of his threatening insanity, since if something went wrong with “treating” Killua he could easily remove the needle to fix him up again."" Me: "Technically its not cannon in 1999 though, so he’s still one of my favorite characters from the show in that version, with some of the most interesting character dynamics/interactions in the show." Guy I was talking to: "Interesting insight, but I must disagree. Killua’s character arc and weakness didn’t end with the removal of a the needle- it simply indicated a shift that Killua was starting to forge his own path and a key moment in his spiritual growth. I also disagree in the sense that Killua’s arc is much more closely tied to that of Gon’s- and that his actions in the CA arc were more of a mirror to his friend, to the point that he went to being the figurative “light” for Gon at the end when the latter was blinded by his own pure rage. I’d also add that Killua and Illumi had less of a relationship and more of a power hierarchy that was controlled by Illumi for much of his life in the hopes of manipulating his younger brother to his bidding (and by extension, the self-preservation command in his hidden needle was perfectly in line with that aim.) Again, when Killua removed the needle, the importance of it was not an end, but rather a beginning of where he’d begin to fight for his own reasons and not hesitate for any reason. I could certainly talk much further at length about this specific point, but I’d say his journey truly began in some sense right there rather than ended. Thanks for thoughts!" Me: "My main love for Illumi as a character was based on my assumption he did what he did to Killua out of love and protection, I never finished the show or the manga, and what I’ve read up on in the wiki didn’t really stick, but I had read that Ilumi wanted Killua to have access to some sort of wish fulfilling demon-face niece. I really do prefer the version I came up with when I hadn’t been given all the information though, just like with Killua’s trauma. I saw every step he took to making his own decisions and creating friendships as part of his journey to free himself from his past, and eventually free himself from it by overcoming it with courage and love. When the needle scene started I hoped to see him fight despite his brother tormenting his mind, and possibly breaking down/freezing up several times during or after it, slowly gaining the ability over several fights later on to resist and overcome his past until it wasn’t a problem anymore. I expected something very different; a sudden disapearance of his trauma by the power of wanting to protect his friend (maybe because I’d also been watching Fairy Tail). What I got felt like a retcon of one of my favorite parts of both Killua’s and Ilumi’s characters. I’m happy other people were able to get something they loved out of it though." Killua was retconned into not being traumatised but just having a needle he needed to remove to fix his problems, this also made Illumi less interesting since he lost the feat of traumatising Killua. Sounds more like it just didn't go the way you prefer rather than being a retcon. I mean I understand why you're upset but I personally side with the guy arguing with you on the matter. It didn't just "not go the way I wanted it to go", Illumi using hypnosis on Killua was not set up at all, the reveal of Illumi being able to use hypnotism is in that very scene, at the time of the original scene bloodlust and the terrifying nature of it was set up, the only logical conclusion I could come up with was that Illumi used that, and not some unintroduced power. At the time the demon face wishing well was also not introduced. The information you have to work with can be used to come up with reasons for why people did these things and what happened. Saying it was an (at the time) unintroduced power is a retcon, and saying he did for an (at the time) completely impossible to decipher reason is a retcon, it meets the definitions I know of it anyway, I don't know what definition you'd have to use to not have it be a retcon. What definition are you using? *edit* Oh, you're using one that says it need to be inconsistent with what has come before, I think that's how some people use it but it's not really the definition or proper way to use it, I think at least, I'm Dutch, maybe America just started using the word differently and it became accepted that retcon = inconsistency. *end edit* The definition I use is: Retcon: making an already proven fact or plot point null and void. basically inconsistencies. Contrivance, asspull, deus ex machina, etc...: pulling something out of nowhere without a hint or foreshadowing. To be honest I don't think Illumi's needle is that big of a contrivance because it isn't that big of a reveal and it doesn't change much. Not to mention we already knew Illumi was a manipulator with his face manipulation needles. It wouldn't make sense that Killua's family would not teach him, their prodigious son, nen. but it makes more sense now since it would be difficult to manipulate him if he's aware of nen. And even if it still feels like it doesn't make sense it's not like any of the previous arcs didn't have any of that and to a bigger extent. Like Kurapika conveniently having all the abilities he needs when he faces Uvo and being able to take a punch from the man who took a blast from a rocket launcher and felt nothing, or Killua being immune to electricity in heaven's arena. Oh, that's not the difinition I use at all. Guess this was just a misunderstanding based on us using the same word to mean different things. Manipulators were not set up when the scene took place, bloodlust was the only concept introduced that affected people mentally, this is why I assumed it was used, in combination with torture, to condition Killua properly, his needles were some mysterious assassin thing that changed the appearance of stuff, nothing more, saying it was something unintroduced is retconning (by my definition, which is more like "a new piece of information that implies a different interpretation of previously described events" -google "Adding or altering information regarding the back story of a fictional character or world, regardless of whether the change contradicts what was said before." - urban dictionary, is fine too, but that definition seems to say it doesn't care wether or not a contradiction is made, not that one has to be made). It's not a negative word or thing to do, Rogue One retconned the death star to be intentionally poorly designed, that's (arguably) great. I thought only Illumi was in on the whole wish thing, not the dad too, I only know this through the wiki though. edit from the last message you might have missed and I guess Illumi did say "I made sure to hammer that lesson home" or something along those lines in the manga, and he said "I drilled that into you" in 2011, which implies it wasn't really something simply implanted into him, but something Killua got through training and conditioning, so saying it was implanted goes against that implication, but it's not something I'd actually call inconsistent, it just retcons Illumi into being a liar. He pretty much had the reaction he'd been having to bloodlust but it wasn't accompanied by the people around him feeling the same, which I assume to mean he'd been trained like a dog, feeling bloodlust because he's in a situation where he's used to feeling bloodlust. Just working with the infomation the show gave me. I'm pretty curious to know what you first thought the scene meant and how it worked. Was the whole thing a mystery as to why it happened up until the episode 94 reveal for you? |
Mar 28, 2018 3:59 AM
#46
[quote=newazurill message=54746368] Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: Glenfinnan said: Oh yeah, the ant arc does more than being a self contained bad arc (like greed island), it straight up retcons some of the best things about the show into non-existence.@Snufkin that article represents exactly what I felt after watching both versions, I felt so relieved when I found it and realized (for the first time) I was not the only one thinking the same. I love how accurate it is. Alkasul said: IMO the 1999 version is better, it just didn't have the fortune of adapting the Chimera Ant arc. To me it was actually a divine blessing that 1999 never got that far. I would have today one 10 less in my list if that would have been the case, since the storyline of that arc ruined dramatically the great experience I was having in an irreversible way. What does it retcon? Seemed pretty consistent with what came before. taken from a previous conversation somewhere linked here if you want to know what got me talking about it. Me: "When I watched episode 94 it ruined Killua for me, I thought in the hunter exam it was revealed Ilumi had used his bloodlust on his brother a lot at a young age to traumatise him into being unable to put himself into dangerous. unknown situations, a showing of Ilumi’s twisted love for his family. He wants to keep Killua safe but does something terrible to him to guarantee that safety. It was pretty much the most clockwork orange thing I’ve ever seen in anime. When episode 94 rolled around it revealed that it was actually just a hypnosis needle all along, the progress he’d been making as a character didn’t help him in overcoming his weakness, he simply removed the needle and it cured him. His personal quest ended in a dead end, and it burned down the sights and monuments along the path it took so that if you’d ever want to take the journey again it would be way less enjoyable. The relationship between Ilumi and Killua also became way less interesting, I lost interest in seeing him standing up to his brother(‘s bloodlust) in person, and Ilumi lost a lot of his threatening insanity, since if something went wrong with “treating” Killua he could easily remove the needle to fix him up again."" Me: "Technically its not cannon in 1999 though, so he’s still one of my favorite characters from the show in that version, with some of the most interesting character dynamics/interactions in the show." Guy I was talking to: "Interesting insight, but I must disagree. Killua’s character arc and weakness didn’t end with the removal of a the needle- it simply indicated a shift that Killua was starting to forge his own path and a key moment in his spiritual growth. I also disagree in the sense that Killua’s arc is much more closely tied to that of Gon’s- and that his actions in the CA arc were more of a mirror to his friend, to the point that he went to being the figurative “light” for Gon at the end when the latter was blinded by his own pure rage. I’d also add that Killua and Illumi had less of a relationship and more of a power hierarchy that was controlled by Illumi for much of his life in the hopes of manipulating his younger brother to his bidding (and by extension, the self-preservation command in his hidden needle was perfectly in line with that aim.) Again, when Killua removed the needle, the importance of it was not an end, but rather a beginning of where he’d begin to fight for his own reasons and not hesitate for any reason. I could certainly talk much further at length about this specific point, but I’d say his journey truly began in some sense right there rather than ended. Thanks for thoughts!" Me: "My main love for Illumi as a character was based on my assumption he did what he did to Killua out of love and protection, I never finished the show or the manga, and what I’ve read up on in the wiki didn’t really stick, but I had read that Ilumi wanted Killua to have access to some sort of wish fulfilling demon-face niece. I really do prefer the version I came up with when I hadn’t been given all the information though, just like with Killua’s trauma. I saw every step he took to making his own decisions and creating friendships as part of his journey to free himself from his past, and eventually free himself from it by overcoming it with courage and love. When the needle scene started I hoped to see him fight despite his brother tormenting his mind, and possibly breaking down/freezing up several times during or after it, slowly gaining the ability over several fights later on to resist and overcome his past until it wasn’t a problem anymore. I expected something very different; a sudden disapearance of his trauma by the power of wanting to protect his friend (maybe because I’d also been watching Fairy Tail). What I got felt like a retcon of one of my favorite parts of both Killua’s and Ilumi’s characters. I’m happy other people were able to get something they loved out of it though." Killua was retconned into not being traumatised but just having a needle he needed to remove to fix his problems, this also made Illumi less interesting since he lost the feat of traumatising Killua. Sounds more like it just didn't go the way you prefer rather than being a retcon. I mean I understand why you're upset but I personally side with the guy arguing with you on the matter. It didn't just "not go the way I wanted it to go", Illumi using hypnosis on Killua was not set up at all, the reveal of Illumi being able to use hypnotism is in that very scene, at the time of the original scene bloodlust and the terrifying nature of it was set up, the only logical conclusion I could come up with was that Illumi used that, and not some unintroduced power. At the time the demon face wishing well was also not introduced. The information you have to work with can be used to come up with reasons for why people did these things and what happened. Saying it was an (at the time) unintroduced power is a retcon, and saying he did for an (at the time) completely impossible to decipher reason is a retcon, it meets the definitions I know of it anyway, I don't know what definition you'd have to use to not have it be a retcon. What definition are you using? *edit* Oh, you're using one that says it need to be inconsistent with what has come before, I think that's how some people use it but it's not really the definition or proper way to use it, I think at least, I'm Dutch, maybe America just started using the word differently and it became accepted that retcon = inconsistency. *end edit* The definition I use is: Retcon: making an already proven fact or plot point null and void. basically inconsistencies. Contrivance, asspull, deus ex machina, etc...: pulling something out of nowhere without a hint or foreshadowing. To be honest I don't think Illumi's needle is that big of a contrivance because it isn't that big of a reveal and it doesn't change much. Not to mention we already knew Illumi was a manipulator with his face manipulation needles. It wouldn't make sense that Killua's family would not teach him, their prodigious son, nen. but it makes more sense now since it would be difficult to manipulate him if he's aware of nen. And even if it still feels like it doesn't make sense it's not like any of the previous arcs didn't have any of that and to a bigger extent. Like Kurapika conveniently having all the abilities he needs when he faces Uvo and being able to take a punch from the man who took a blast from a rocket launcher and felt nothing, or Killua being immune to electricity in heaven's arena. Oh, that's not the difinition I use at all. Guess this was just a misunderstanding based on us using the same word to mean different things. Manipulators were not set up when the scene took place, bloodlust was the only concept introduced that affected people mentally, this is why I assumed it was used, in combination with torture, to condition Killua properly, his needles were some mysterious assassin thing that changed the appearance of stuff, nothing more, saying it was something unintroduced is retconning (by my definition, which is more like "a new piece of information that implies a different interpretation of previously described events" -google "Adding or altering information regarding the back story of a fictional character or world, regardless of whether the change contradicts what was said before." - urban dictionary, is fine too, but that definition seems to say it doesn't care wether or not a contradiction is made, not that one has to be made). It's not a negative word or thing to do, Rogue One retconned the death star to be intentionally poorly designed, that's (arguably) great. I thought only Illumi was in on the whole wish thing, not the dad too, I only know this through the wiki though. edit from the last message you might have missed and I guess Illumi did say "I made sure to hammer that lesson home" or something along those lines in the manga, and he said "I drilled that into you" in 2011, which implies it wasn't really something simply implanted into him, but something Killua got through training and conditioning, so saying it was implanted goes against that implication, but it's not something I'd actually call inconsistent, it just retcons Illumi into being a liar. He pretty much had the reaction he'd been having to bloodlust but it wasn't accompanied by the people around him feeling the same, which I assume to mean he'd been trained like a dog, feeling bloodlust because he's in a situation where he's used to feeling bloodlust. Just working with the infomation the show gave me. I'm pretty curious to know what you first thought the scene meant and how it worked. Was the whole thing a mystery as to why it happened up until the episode 94 reveal for you? Manipulators did exist since the introduction of nen in heaven's arena. There are many applications of nen and there are six categories that would define which type you're compatible with. Manipulators were one of the categories which are people who can use their nen to manipulate objects or living beings in some way. That's why in the Phantom troupe arc Shalnark told Nobunaga that he (a manipulator) and Nobunaga (an enhancer) to be easily replaceable if they died as nen users with manipulative powers are common unlike specialist abilities like Paku and Shizuku. That doesn't go against anything I said. It could lead to conclude that Illumi's needle is a nen thing, but Killua is able to transform himself and make shadow duplicates and go invisible without nen, so it could very well still be an assassin thing. If you do conclude the needles are nen related that still doesn't mean they have hypnotic/bloodlust powers and have never been shown to have that power before, they only had the power of transformation. I assumed finding a replacement for their role (fighter/killer) would be easy, finding someone with the exact same power would not be easy. Bloodlust was already established through Ren which was introduced as releasing your nen which resembles your intention. You can communicate bloodlust, hatred, respect, sadness, determination, etc... but is only effective when others are in range of your Ren so Killua wouldn't be affected by Illumi's bloodlust if Illumi isn't around and activating his Ren. So a nen imbued needle is there to keep Illumi's bloodlust around even when he's not around Killua rather than simply manipulate Killua's actions, and Killua is too afraid of Illumi's bloodlust that he can't think or move properly when he senses it. It was precisely beautiful because he didn't need to release his bloodlust, it was in Killua's mind, he had mental issues and traumatic experiences. Fixing all of that by saying "it was secretely bloodlust all along. I got ya!" is incredibly disappointing. Any bloodlust freezes Killua up if he doesn't block it, he can't block the bloodlust since it's coming from within him. What I interpreted Illumi's phrase of drilling it into him is that Illumi is thinking he's teaching Killua something valuable by treating him like some lab rat but he's too twisted to understand that Killua only follows him due to fear. You thought Illumi saying "I drilled that into you" after he said "don't attack a superior opponent" meant he thought he had taught him a valuable lesson by treating him like a lab rat. But what did you actually think he did to killua when that scene played out, and when did you start thinking it was a needle? I see the implication that "drilling a lesson into someone" means you've thoroughly taught them that lesson an ample ammount of times over a long period of time and really made it stick in there. Like the definition of the phrase "drilled into my head" implies. "To teach or inculcate something to someone by constant, intense repetition" I want you to specifically tell me what you taught Illumi did to make Killua act like he did and how your idea of what he did changed over time. The only difference in the existence of the needle is that with it Killua's actions are kept in check as he can feel Illumi's bloodlust whenever he tries to go against his teachings, and without it Killua is traumatized and can't make his own actions which aren't that different to me personally as even in the first one he still is terrified of Illumi's bloodlust but is still capable of thinking on his own. this is weirdly phrased so I don't exactly know what you mean by this, but I'll try responding. All I can say is before the reveal of the needle it is implied Killua has trauma that doesn't allow him to do certain things, after the reveal of it it turns out it's just a trick his brother played on him and it's fixed in about 20 seconds. That is a huge character development. He didn't know about the needle, we didn't know about the needle, now everyone knows and the problem is immediatly gone. Episode 94 is where Killua was able to stand against Illumi's bloodlust for the first time and risks his life to save his friend Gon, which goes against his teachings and signifies a change in character. Killua previously seemed calm and detached mostly but at this point it felt like he started valuing something more than himself. Killua didn't stand up to anything, he removed the thing that caused the fear and got on with the fight, he didn't resist his brother's bloodlust, he just removed the thing making the bloodlust, I don't get why you're saying he stood against it. And I'd say him following Nobunaga was the first time he stood up against the bloodlust (I remember), feeling only a small portion of it by thinking he was just following him and nothing bad was gonna happen, but feeling very scared and sweating during the whole thing. |
Mar 28, 2018 2:00 PM
#47
Cbr_Star said: Man the responses are so 50-50 it's hard to decide what to do... So far I'm gathering the 1999 version tells the first half hunter arc better, and some would argue has better quality animation with lighting etc. But the 2011 goes further into the story line. I should watch both, but knowing kinda what happens next drives me ADD crazy lol There's no real harm in switching versions after a certain point, especially if you you seemed to like the early '99 episodes more. From there it's just a matter of deciding when to switch. |
Mar 29, 2018 12:32 AM
#48
[quote=newazurill message=54747020] Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: Glenfinnan said: Oh yeah, the ant arc does more than being a self contained bad arc (like greed island), it straight up retcons some of the best things about the show into non-existence.@Snufkin that article represents exactly what I felt after watching both versions, I felt so relieved when I found it and realized (for the first time) I was not the only one thinking the same. I love how accurate it is. Alkasul said: IMO the 1999 version is better, it just didn't have the fortune of adapting the Chimera Ant arc. To me it was actually a divine blessing that 1999 never got that far. I would have today one 10 less in my list if that would have been the case, since the storyline of that arc ruined dramatically the great experience I was having in an irreversible way. What does it retcon? Seemed pretty consistent with what came before. taken from a previous conversation somewhere linked here if you want to know what got me talking about it. Me: "When I watched episode 94 it ruined Killua for me, I thought in the hunter exam it was revealed Ilumi had used his bloodlust on his brother a lot at a young age to traumatise him into being unable to put himself into dangerous. unknown situations, a showing of Ilumi’s twisted love for his family. He wants to keep Killua safe but does something terrible to him to guarantee that safety. It was pretty much the most clockwork orange thing I’ve ever seen in anime. When episode 94 rolled around it revealed that it was actually just a hypnosis needle all along, the progress he’d been making as a character didn’t help him in overcoming his weakness, he simply removed the needle and it cured him. His personal quest ended in a dead end, and it burned down the sights and monuments along the path it took so that if you’d ever want to take the journey again it would be way less enjoyable. The relationship between Ilumi and Killua also became way less interesting, I lost interest in seeing him standing up to his brother(‘s bloodlust) in person, and Ilumi lost a lot of his threatening insanity, since if something went wrong with “treating” Killua he could easily remove the needle to fix him up again."" Me: "Technically its not cannon in 1999 though, so he’s still one of my favorite characters from the show in that version, with some of the most interesting character dynamics/interactions in the show." Guy I was talking to: "Interesting insight, but I must disagree. Killua’s character arc and weakness didn’t end with the removal of a the needle- it simply indicated a shift that Killua was starting to forge his own path and a key moment in his spiritual growth. I also disagree in the sense that Killua’s arc is much more closely tied to that of Gon’s- and that his actions in the CA arc were more of a mirror to his friend, to the point that he went to being the figurative “light” for Gon at the end when the latter was blinded by his own pure rage. I’d also add that Killua and Illumi had less of a relationship and more of a power hierarchy that was controlled by Illumi for much of his life in the hopes of manipulating his younger brother to his bidding (and by extension, the self-preservation command in his hidden needle was perfectly in line with that aim.) Again, when Killua removed the needle, the importance of it was not an end, but rather a beginning of where he’d begin to fight for his own reasons and not hesitate for any reason. I could certainly talk much further at length about this specific point, but I’d say his journey truly began in some sense right there rather than ended. Thanks for thoughts!" Me: "My main love for Illumi as a character was based on my assumption he did what he did to Killua out of love and protection, I never finished the show or the manga, and what I’ve read up on in the wiki didn’t really stick, but I had read that Ilumi wanted Killua to have access to some sort of wish fulfilling demon-face niece. I really do prefer the version I came up with when I hadn’t been given all the information though, just like with Killua’s trauma. I saw every step he took to making his own decisions and creating friendships as part of his journey to free himself from his past, and eventually free himself from it by overcoming it with courage and love. When the needle scene started I hoped to see him fight despite his brother tormenting his mind, and possibly breaking down/freezing up several times during or after it, slowly gaining the ability over several fights later on to resist and overcome his past until it wasn’t a problem anymore. I expected something very different; a sudden disapearance of his trauma by the power of wanting to protect his friend (maybe because I’d also been watching Fairy Tail). What I got felt like a retcon of one of my favorite parts of both Killua’s and Ilumi’s characters. I’m happy other people were able to get something they loved out of it though." Killua was retconned into not being traumatised but just having a needle he needed to remove to fix his problems, this also made Illumi less interesting since he lost the feat of traumatising Killua. Sounds more like it just didn't go the way you prefer rather than being a retcon. I mean I understand why you're upset but I personally side with the guy arguing with you on the matter. It didn't just "not go the way I wanted it to go", Illumi using hypnosis on Killua was not set up at all, the reveal of Illumi being able to use hypnotism is in that very scene, at the time of the original scene bloodlust and the terrifying nature of it was set up, the only logical conclusion I could come up with was that Illumi used that, and not some unintroduced power. At the time the demon face wishing well was also not introduced. The information you have to work with can be used to come up with reasons for why people did these things and what happened. Saying it was an (at the time) unintroduced power is a retcon, and saying he did for an (at the time) completely impossible to decipher reason is a retcon, it meets the definitions I know of it anyway, I don't know what definition you'd have to use to not have it be a retcon. What definition are you using? *edit* Oh, you're using one that says it need to be inconsistent with what has come before, I think that's how some people use it but it's not really the definition or proper way to use it, I think at least, I'm Dutch, maybe America just started using the word differently and it became accepted that retcon = inconsistency. *end edit* The definition I use is: Retcon: making an already proven fact or plot point null and void. basically inconsistencies. Contrivance, asspull, deus ex machina, etc...: pulling something out of nowhere without a hint or foreshadowing. To be honest I don't think Illumi's needle is that big of a contrivance because it isn't that big of a reveal and it doesn't change much. Not to mention we already knew Illumi was a manipulator with his face manipulation needles. It wouldn't make sense that Killua's family would not teach him, their prodigious son, nen. but it makes more sense now since it would be difficult to manipulate him if he's aware of nen. And even if it still feels like it doesn't make sense it's not like any of the previous arcs didn't have any of that and to a bigger extent. Like Kurapika conveniently having all the abilities he needs when he faces Uvo and being able to take a punch from the man who took a blast from a rocket launcher and felt nothing, or Killua being immune to electricity in heaven's arena. Oh, that's not the difinition I use at all. Guess this was just a misunderstanding based on us using the same word to mean different things. Manipulators were not set up when the scene took place, bloodlust was the only concept introduced that affected people mentally, this is why I assumed it was used, in combination with torture, to condition Killua properly, his needles were some mysterious assassin thing that changed the appearance of stuff, nothing more, saying it was something unintroduced is retconning (by my definition, which is more like "a new piece of information that implies a different interpretation of previously described events" -google "Adding or altering information regarding the back story of a fictional character or world, regardless of whether the change contradicts what was said before." - urban dictionary, is fine too, but that definition seems to say it doesn't care wether or not a contradiction is made, not that one has to be made). It's not a negative word or thing to do, Rogue One retconned the death star to be intentionally poorly designed, that's (arguably) great. I thought only Illumi was in on the whole wish thing, not the dad too, I only know this through the wiki though. edit from the last message you might have missed and I guess Illumi did say "I made sure to hammer that lesson home" or something along those lines in the manga, and he said "I drilled that into you" in 2011, which implies it wasn't really something simply implanted into him, but something Killua got through training and conditioning, so saying it was implanted goes against that implication, but it's not something I'd actually call inconsistent, it just retcons Illumi into being a liar. He pretty much had the reaction he'd been having to bloodlust but it wasn't accompanied by the people around him feeling the same, which I assume to mean he'd been trained like a dog, feeling bloodlust because he's in a situation where he's used to feeling bloodlust. Just working with the infomation the show gave me. I'm pretty curious to know what you first thought the scene meant and how it worked. Was the whole thing a mystery as to why it happened up until the episode 94 reveal for you? That doesn't go against anything I said. It could lead to conclude that Illumi's needle is a nen thing, but Killua is able to transform himself and make shadow duplicates and go invisible without nen, so it could very well still be an assassin thing. If you do conclude the needles are nen related that still doesn't mean they have hypnotic/bloodlust powers and have never been shown to have that power before, they only had the power of transformation. I assumed finding a replacement for their role (fighter/killer) would be easy, finding someone with the exact same power would not be easy. It is implied from Wing's teachings that talented people are able to somewhat use nen without being aware of it and it's probably how nen was first learned. For example: Gon learned how to use Zetsu while tracking Hisoka without knowing Nen, and Zepile's imbued his weird vase with nen due to his extreme focus and dedication to his craft, not to mention Neon who doesn't seem very aware of nen. My assumption was that all supernatural powers are based from nen and people who use them are sometimes unaware of nen and thus unable to use it's other applications like ten/ren. Of all applications of nen the only way to transform a face like that is to use nen manipulation or conjuration. Chrollo said that manipulators and conjurers can give objects abilities that could be tricky to deal with when he was discussing what happened to Uvo. Since there is no sign of the needles being conjured which also leads to him being a manipulator which also works with his personality type of being obsessive. As for the replacement thing. Shalnark said: "You and I have abilities that can easily be replaced, but Shizuku and Pakunoda have rare powers. The troupe can't afford to lose them." which indicates that manipulators aren't that hard to come by. It was precisely beautiful because he didn't need to release his bloodlust, it was in Killua's mind, he had mental issues and traumatic experiences. Fixing all of that by saying "it was secretely bloodlust all along. I got ya!" is incredibly disappointing. Any bloodlust freezes Killua up if he doesn't block it, he can't block the bloodlust since it's coming from within him. You thought Illumi saying "I drilled that into you" after he said "don't attack a superior opponent" meant he thought he had taught him a valuable lesson by treating him like a lab rat. But what did you actually think he did to killua when that scene played out, and when did you start thinking it was a needle? I see the implication that "drilling a lesson into someone" means you've thoroughly taught them that lesson an ample ammount of times over a long period of time and really made it stick in there. Like the definition of the phrase "drilled into my head" implies. "To teach or inculcate something to someone by constant, intense repetition" I want you to specifically tell me what you taught Illumi did to make Killua act like he did and how your idea of what he did changed over time. this is weirdly phrased so I don't exactly know what you mean by this, but I'll try responding. All I can say is before the reveal of the needle it is implied Killua has trauma that doesn't allow him to do certain things, after the reveal of it it turns out it's just a trick his brother played on him and it's fixed in about 20 seconds. That is a huge character development. He didn't know about the needle, we didn't know about the needle, now everyone knows and the problem is immediatly gone. Killua didn't stand up to anything, he removed the thing that caused the fear and got on with the fight, he didn't resist his brother's bloodlust, he just removed the thing making the bloodlust, I don't get why you're saying he stood against it. And I'd say him following Nobunaga was the first time he stood up against the bloodlust (I remember), feeling only a small portion of it by thinking he was just following him and nothing bad was gonna happen, but feeling very scared and sweating during the whole thing. The way I think the needle works is not by continuously manipulating Killua but by just being a reminder when he tries to think in any other way. The needle's existence doesn't nullify any trauma or teachings Illumi gave Killua, it just works as insurance for when Killua tries to change, that's why it only affected Killua when he tries to go against Illumi's teachings in the phantom troupe arc and later in the CA arc. Killua have already been forced to be in many people's Ren afterwards, like Hisoka, Wing, Some of the phantom troupe, and most importantly Pitou. Killua have said that Pitou's Ren dwarfs Illumi's and Hisoka's which is one of the reasons Killua got over Illumi's bloodlust. While I didn't expect Killua to have a needle in his head I wouldn't say that it doesn't work because of the obsessive personality of Illumi and the fact that I already thought he was a manipulator. As for Killua's growth, removing the needle doesn't mean that he didn't stand against his brother's bloodlust. The fact that he stood his ground instead of running away means that he rejects it. And about the ordeal with Nobunaga, I don't think that Killua would've gone through with that if Gon didn't stop him and even then it was mostly Killua being suicidal rather than thinking straight so it was in the wrong direction. My opinion is that removing the needle wasn't the one step solution but the another step in Killua's change and his reform. He still was unsure of his actions later like his choice of ignoring the invasion plan and going after two chimera soldiers to help Ikalgo, as well as losing himself to emotions against Palm rather than staying true to his goal. To me that's proof that he's still learning and the fact that he didn't solve all his personal and emotional problems. btw, is my english bad? it's not my native tongue so I fear I'm expressing myself badly here. They were called assassin arts but if that's how you look at them that's cool too. The power is way less important than the role it fulfills, so I assumed he meant finding a role replacement, not a "something pretty unimportant" replacement. Finding an information/thought gatherer would be hard, not finding Paku's ability again, finding a fighter like Nobu would easier, I think the new members don't have exact copies of the previous members powers, Alluka isn't Hisoka, and Hisoka isn't... guy he killed, and Illumi isn't Uvo (He'd be a great Shalnark replacement). I think you're saying this to imply that every manipulator is able to do what Illumi and Shalnark do? Am I getting that right? Oh yeah, I guess you could call that standing against it, it just isn't overcoming it. It's trying to resist and just not entirely failing. I thought you meant it as in actually facing it and telling it who's boss, you didn't, my mistake. And yeah, it didn't make him into a perfect character, I'd never say it did, but it did fix a gigantic problem of his (and made that problem into a completely different problem retroactively) by simply removing a just introduced object from the picture. I'll ask this again since I'm really curious and you haven't given an answer. I want you to specifically tell me what you taught Illumi did to make Killua act like he did and how your idea of what he did changed over time. |
Mar 29, 2018 2:46 AM
#49
2011 by a ton but mainly due to the Hunter Exam arc. I probably have more of an emotional attachment to 2011 since I watched it first which makes me biased but the main complaints I see are that it isn't dark enough and in all honesty I love the atmosphere as I see it as a sort of reflection of Gon's innocence and naive fearlessness. I don't need dark colors to tell me that grim stuff is happening, but the color scheme does change in the Chimera Ant arc which fit the evolving emotional atmosphere. The contrast, both in the progression of the 2011 series, as well as the clash between the aesthetic qualities in the beginning with the actual happenings, both contribute in a significant way to 2011 being my all-time favorite anime series. And you can't take that love away from me, as much as you may want to. |
Mar 30, 2018 2:03 PM
#50
as someone who has seen the first series and then the 2011 one(starting where the original ended which was before the 2 biggest arcs) and then watched the 2011 again I would said that for most people the 2011 one is better to watch because: -it is better quality and more modern so better everything basicaly(visualy and sound etc) -IT'S FUCKING 148 EPISODES WHOUHOU! -as already said it doesn't end just before the 2 biggest arcs -the story advances faster and is more adapted to a modern audience(since it's 2011) I use to say" watch the first episode of the original series or the 1rst chapter before watching the 2011 version because there's something important here that's not in the 2011 version" but realy it doesn't matter much and that was just something that applied to me and could make people drop the show instead.(that was the part where gon mets kaido) if you're already 12 episodes in the 2011 version don't bother with the 1999 version, or do it but later out of curiosity since there are some filler episodes in the 1999 version( not bad ones tbh) but it's been 2 days so you're probably at least 40 episodes in right? |
ZehennagelMar 30, 2018 2:18 PM
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