| Before I start, I want everyone here to agree on what makes an anime, manga, light novel, novel, tv show, film, or any other piece of literature "bad". Can we all agree on this criteria? That a bad show MUST HAVE:
If there is anything else that should be added to this criteria, feel free to tell me, however, I will not accept enjoyment as criteria for a show being good or bad [objectively], because enjoyment is subjective. Now that we got all that out of the way, I am here right now because I hear a lot of shit about Juuni Taisen being a bad or average show, with nothing but personal bias being the motivator behind that criticism. I want to show you just how much thought went into this series and how competent it truly is. I DON'T claim Juuni Taisen is a masterpiece, but I'll get into why I think that after I defend the merits of its story. Before I continue, I want to make it clear that I WILL NOT use NisiOisiN's name as any sort of valid defense for this series. I am undoubtedly a fan of NisiOisiN and his work, but to those who don't understand his thought process through his other works (i.e. Monogatari, Katanagatari, Zaregoto and Medaka Box), this defense seems shallow at best and only spurs more criticism for Juuni Taisen. What I am aiming for is to defend Juuni Taisen's artistic integrity based on its own definable merits. Before I explain to you why Juuni Taisen is a good show, however, I will debunk why Juuni Taisen isn't a BAD SHOW. -------------- Let's begin:  Debunking: "Juuni Taisen has poor characterization" "Topic Clearly wasn't researched" These two claims aren't mutually exclusive, so I will be debunking both of them at more or less the same time. Before I do so, however, I want to ask two question to all of you reading this: Do you remember all of the (Zodiac) characters in Juuni Taisen? Do you remember how they all died (and who they died to)? This is more for the people who watched the show while it was airing like I was. I have kept up with every episode as it airs, it's been a week and a half since it stopped airing, and I haven't rewatched a single episode, and I am assuming most here are the same. Just keep in mind I am making these arguments strictly from memory, and if anyone wants to go back and rewatch the show to invalidate my claims or simply correct me, I encourage you to do so. Firstly, the notion that Juuni Taisen has poor characterization in any way is preposterous. The characters aren't one-dimensional, flat, or lacking in detailed characters specifics. They all have personality and motivations outside of one specific trait, and those that seem to lack in either, are done so with that idea being its intention. I will prove this in a second, but it's important to keep in mind that writers (in general) want characters to make an impact on its viewership, as many of them will try to establish (and many times exaggerate) the personality of the characters involved before giving them depth. Juuni Taisen is much the same way, exaggerating personality traits through over-the-top character designs, their abilities, and how they interact with one another. This is all really ironic considering individuality means nothing in Juuni Taisen, but more on that later. As everybody knows, the characters in Juuni Taisen are based on the 12 Chinese Zodiac signs, for which they borrow their names. If Juuni Taisen didn't do its research, then the personalities of the characters shouldn't match up with their corresponding sign. But alas, they do. Not only that, but their abilities correspond well with their Zodiacs as well. Zodiac sites can be pretty confusing at times because they give only general overviews of their personalities, but through my research, I have found traits that directly correspond to them in the show. That said, even if the personalities of the characters are faithful to the Zodiacs they are based on, it doesn't prove that these characters have more than one dimension. Now let's see just how well these characters are characterized! Boar  Boar is confident in her own abilities, some may even say overconfident. She went through many hardships throughout her life, and she has worked very hard to obtain her goal, but when her sister took away what she was aiming for (i.e. a spot in the Juuni Taisen), she used her cunning and sadistic tendencies to break her mentally. Boar is ambitious and does things that she wants to do, to her own taste. But like with all ambition that requires taking a shorter and faster path to success, one little slip-up caused her entire career to crash down in an instant. Rabbit dominated her with his own pure intentions and his strategizing, something a cunning and ambitious Boar couldn't see through. The point of her death was that it was pointless. Dog  Dog has a tendency to be overly suspicious, to be critical of others, is easily angered and is pretty naive. Despite criticizing Chicken for her revealing attire, and how she supposedly gives too much information on herself away, he goes on to do the exact thing he was criticizing her for, which makes him kind of a hypocrite. That said, he is suspicious, naive, and by extension hypocritical, because of how loyal and caring he is. By the end of the series, we learn that he works at a preschool and has a daughter for which he loves a lot. He died because he let his guard down to Chicken, thanks to that caring nature. Chicken  Chicken is observant and truthful. Despite deceiving Dog, she never says anything she doesn't mean or isn't true. She believes herself to be weak, so she does what she can to be as strong as she can. She even needs to crows that are under her command to do her bidding for her, because she doesn't have the capability herself. She needs Dog's physical enhancement abilities to stand a chance. However, her being observant and a rational person, allows Monkey's straightforward philosophy and caring nature to get through to her, essentially messing with her sense of security. She leaves the sewers confused and confronts Ox, the most straightforward character in the show. Chicken isn't straightforward, she thinks she needs to deceive others and attack from a distance in order to win, so both Monkey and Ox, are the ones that cause the death of her. Her dying from the Monkey and Ox combination shows how much of a front she was putting up to ignore her messed up morals. She was caring on the inside but cared too much about appearances, thankfully, she didn't die a shallow death. At the last moment, she did what she believed in, even if everything she did was irredeemable and hypocritical. Monkey  Monkey excels at communication skills, after all, she is a negotiator. She is true to her ideals and will follow them through to the end, even when her actions cause nothing but more pain for her and more conflict in the world. She has a family she wants to protect but feels it is her obligation to participate because she cannot see past her duty to stop the conflict. She is optimistic and enthusiastic, for which proves to be contagious, as her attitude rubs off on Chicken and Rat the most, two characters that have very different philosophies. However, she is also impatient, expecting things to get done quickly, instead of perfecting the "product". For example, instead of waiting to convince both ambassadors to join her in her negotiations, she decides to sabotage both sides from the inside. It works well on paper, but she doesn't follow through with this to ensure that conflict is permanently avoided, and just goes home and hears about it on the TV. Similarly, instead of retreating when Rabbit confronted her, she naively tried to fight him on his own terms. She put up a good fight, but Rabbit's persistence, domination, superior strategizing and [persuasion], caused the simple Monkey to fall from her tree, with a little help from Snake. Sheep  Sheep is a veteran warrior and is highly experienced in his trade. Exactly because of his experience, he knows how pointless war is (in general), but he joins the war in his grandson's stead. He is loving and caring, but he doesn't have much meaning in his life or this war, outside of caring for his family. His war cry is "killing deceptively", and we even see his angst in action as he thinks of different scenarios with the other zodiac signs to happen just in case. The thing is, he isn't all that worried about his life thanks to his age and confidence in his abilities, he even resigns himself to his fate, thinking to himself at one point that he doesn't think he'll make it out of the Taisen alive. He is calm, analytical and imaginative, albeit pessimistic and a bit unrealistic. When he looks at Tiger, all he sees is a drunkard with no talent, his pessimism, and concludes he can deal with her easily. He dies not by underestimating Tiger, but rather by not accounting for the scenario that Tiger would be prepping herself rather than being reckless with her drinking. Who can blame him though? Horse  I think we can all agree that Horse is a coward. Once an obstacle comes his way, he confines himself in a shell and refuses to face the challenge. He doesn't finish anything he begins, and he's always on the defensive, because he refuses to be aggressive. I remember his backstory the least out of all of them, but if I recall correctly, didn't he use drugs to give him a boost in his physical abilities? Either way, Rat pops up and talks to him about finding his own path and running away from obstacles, before he too leaves Horse alone. Horse is given a moment to consider this, before Snake comes in and suffocates Horse with his flames. In his final attempt at survival, Horse tries to use all of his brute strength to break down the wall, but it was already too late, he already dug too big of a hole for himself. Snake and Dragon  Snake and Dragon understand even more than Sheep that war is pointless, so they do their best at making war fun. According to the Zodiac personality profile, the two are nearly indistinguishable, even going so far as to say that [snakes] are like "the little [dragons]", which is most likely the reason why the two are twins in the show and are hardly distinguishable. Snake is clever, logical but does most things based on instinct, at least in his flashback. Dragon is much the same way, but he also believes himself to be superior, and even looks down on him a couple of times for getting killed first. That said, these two do have nothing but each other, even if they deny it. Separate them apart, like Rabbit did, and it's easy to kill them off. Rabbit  Rabbit is a monster, but he is a monster because he is the only one with pure intentions. All he wants is to make everyone his friend, and he is willing to [persuade] everyone to help him achieve it. In fact, he doesn't kill anybody (except Snake) by himself, however, when he does confront the other zodiacs face to face, he often uses his [friends] to put them in compromising positions, so he can [persuade] them. He is mostly nonconfrontational, and frankly very kind. He is dominating, very controlling, and very strategical; most of the zodiacs die from Rabbit or one of his [friends]. Despite Rabbit being a necromantist, his skill set is actually very limited, which is why he avoids confrontation. The only time he confronts something without any effective help is the time he dies from Tiger and Ox, but Rabbit knew he didn't have a chance at defeating them. Rabbit planned ahead and used his death as another means for his victory, which is something both Ox and Tiger couldn't escape. He uses up every asset he has until there is nothing left until Rat sneaks up while he is essentially pinned down, and ends him. Rabbit is only one dimensional on the surface, but that is because he plays the role of the monster or villain in the story. Monsters are by definition, non-human and unrelatable, however, look a little closer and you'll find a logic behind their existence. Tiger  Tiger is passionate, stubborn, courageous and energetic until she loses all of what she believed in when she went to war. With her ideals and sense of morality crushed, she becomes reckless and relentless in combat. She drowns herself in alcohol because she wants to escape thinking about what direction she wants to go in life and what true strength is. This is until she meets Ox, where she asks him a similar question. Ox gave the slightest purpose and direction back into Tiger's life and looks up to him in admiration, the same way she would a teacher. Tiger is the only zodiac warrior with her wish fulfilled, and that's because she is always straightforward with her intentions and her actions. She is thrown off her course halfway, but she never gave up and saw her goal through to the end, even when Rabbit tried to pull her down. Ox  Ox is focused, dependable, honorable, introverted, analytical, philosophical, stubborn, and observant, however, he needs a long time to think about his actions before he does them. This is essentially how the zombified Rabbit pins him down; Ox was thinking of the best way to kill Rabbit, but he didn't account for Rabbit's unusual size before he used Monkey against him. That said, Ox is definitely the most straightforward of the bunch, for as soon as he figures out what he needs to do to protect his ideals and accomplish his goal, he sets out to do it. He is even willing to sacrifice his own life if that is what's right; both killing Rabbit and saving Rat (someone for whom is young and has an expanding future ahead of him) was the right thing to do. Rat  Rat is smart, wise, introverted, analytical, and observant. His ability is basically a combination of foresight and angst, the ability to see into the future. While rats in real life don't technically have foresight, they are able to sense danger coming a mile away. Rat is the winner of the Juuni Taisen, but he doesn't and never will have a wish. He just wants to live his life in comfort and survive, ultimately wishing for nothing but stagnation. This is his nature because he is wise and philosophically inclined because he knows just how futile any decision can be. [Saving people? Then you're saving people who don't deserve to be saved! So what is the point?] That said, his ability is basically super-angst, where he can come up with 100 different scenarios accurately and do the route that suits his needs. His intelligence is his downfall, as he has no motivation to pursue anything because he knows the drawbacks of his decisions and wishes to avoid it. He renders the entire battle royale pointless, because he doesn't want to remember his trauma; ignorance is bliss after all. What I did here was, I mixed the descriptions of the Zodiac Personality profiles with the characters in the show, in other words, I used words commonly used to describe the specific Zodiac sign, to describe the corresponding character in the show. There are many of these sites, but here are the two I mainly used: http://www.bzodiac.com/chinese-zodiac-signs/ https://www.yourchineseastrology.com/ So let's recap, the characters in Juuni Taisen are NOT one dimensional, (especially not because I can get so much information out of them strictly from memory), and NisiOisiN DEFINITELY did his research when writing this series. ------------------- Debunking: "Juuni Taisen has weak or non-existent thematic depth" "Juuni Taisen has poor plot structure" Though I decided to split talking about the plot and talking about the characters, in reality, the two still aren't mutually exclusive. After all, I just went over the entire plot right now in the character descriptions. Juuni Taisen is a character-driven story. I mean, are we even surprised? The characters are the Chinese Zodiac signs. Zodiac signs are MEANT TO DESCRIBE HUMANITY, using both astrological and human observation. I also gave away a lot of the thematic depth in the character descriptions as well. Juuni Taisen shows us how humanity reacts to conflict in many ways, and how conflict will only breed more conflict. It has a lot to say about idealism, realism, and pragmatism; honor, deception and what it means to stand up and fight; how war is utterly pointless, not to mention, how individuality is utterly pointless in war. War undermines the peace we set out to achieve by engaging in it. I think that sums up Juuni Taisen's thematic core perfectly. The plot structure is NOT poor. Point out ANY event and it has a clear cause and effect on the nature of the plot whether that be an event in backstories or the events that happen in the Taisen. I would graph out exactly how they play out, but I haven't the time. If anyone else is willing to, I would be grateful if they posted it below. ---------------------------- Debunking "Juuni Taisen's production is Incompetent" Whether it be from the boatload of complaints about how the show spoils itself in the ending credits, to how the animation is inconsistent, it calls into question how competent the studio behind Juuni Taisen really was. Did the studio behind Juuni Taisen have any clue as to what they are doing? The short answer: YES THEY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING. The long answer: The studio purposely spoiled Juuni Taisen, because if it wasn't obvious up till this point, Juuni Taisen isn't about the titular battle royale, it's about the characters that participate in it and how it relates back to our society. Isn't the animation inconsistent? The short answer: Yes, but animation consistency and competence in its production are two very different things. Even though the animation can sometimes look fantastic, especially near the beginning and end of the series, and can sometimes look off and downright shitty near the mid-point, shot composition and editing have always been strong during fights in the Taisen, despite the type of animation it uses (i.e. 2D vs 3D). Take this for example, in episode 1:  OK, well I can't find any better examples as gifs, like the fight with ox and rabbit near the end of the show, but this one with Rabbit and Dragon has a strong enough shot composition to support my claim. https://media.giphy.com/media/3oxHQfU0FgHuaU2HFS/giphy.gif ---------------------- Debunking: "Juuni Taisen doesn't evoke any emotions in its viewership" Ok, I don't care who wants to argue with me on this one, it is simply not true. Just look at how many people got hyped after the first episode subverted our expectations. Even for those not necessarily a fan of how Boar was killed off in the first episode, many will admit that it gave them a greater feeling of suspense. Although I have to admit, personally, that Dragon and Snake's backstory was a little bit weak, the show picked up again soon after, and how many people are bitching about the ending? People don't bitch if they were never invested. Enjoyment is something that is extremely based on personal preference, so is frustration. You can enjoy a game of poker if you win, but when you lose instead, you end up frustrated. Either way, you were playing the game. At any rate, Juuni Taisen (at least the anime) is definitely not a masterpiece. Here are some valid criticisms of Juuni Taisen:
Although Juuni Taisen may not be a masterpiece thanks to these issues, I believe that the overwhelming amount of good in its narrative and production far outweigh these little criticisms. For me, at least, it was enough for me to give it an 8.5/10 (or 9/10), and although it doesn't beat Monogatari by any stretch of the imagination, I do think Juuni Taisen is a new favorite of mine in terms of NisiOisN works. Here are some reasons why I fucking loved Juuni Taisen:
By the way, I recommend you to look up your yearly Chinese Zodiac sign if you don't know it already, but I personally prefer the monthly signs, just because it is more easily definable like the Western Zodiacs. At any rate, even if you hated the show for the decisions it made while it was airing, can we all agree that the decisions it made had a purpose? Can we all just appreciate what it was trying to tell us, regardless of bias? Eh, I doubt it. Though, I hope I proved my point to most of you, that Juuni Taisen is a good show. Try doing the same analysis for Food Wars S3 or King's Game. If one is interested in learning more from Juuni Taisen, check out these Crunchyroll articles by Nick Creamer exploring these various topics, perhaps better than I can: http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-feature/2017/12/23-1/rating-the-wishes-of-juni-taisen http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-feature/2017/12/19/battle-royales-of-anime-the-fate-series-and-juni-taisen-in-focus http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-feature/2017/12/09/the-ugliness-of-war-in-juni-taisen This YouTube video explains the usage meta-literary storytelling much better than I can: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYuPKzj_uRs |
Draconix814Jan 1, 2018 7:38 PM
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| Oh fuck man, and I thought I put a lot of effort into my most recent thread lol. Yeah, it's a character driven show and most people don't really realize that. But a character driven show doesn't mean it's a good show. The good characterization you speak of which I agree on came at the cost of the fluidity of the story. Most of these characters would not have any characterization were it not for the intrusive flashbacks. I don't think you can really objectively argue against this, as you can imagine how difficult it'd be to understand the motivations of someone like Tiger without her flashbacks. Similarly so, the focus on characterization took away from the story itself by instilling an archaic method of being able to very accurately predict who the next fatality will be: The person who just got a whole episode dedicated to themselves. Not including Boar since she was the first case example, the deaths of seven characters were foretold by the episode's focus on them. And this will subjectively vary from person to person, but I don't like how you could also predict the deaths of characters by the order of the actual Chinese zodiac. And this is more subjective, but I also wasn't a fan of how most of the characters didn't even die fighting before their untimely deaths, which include: 1. Snake 2. Dog 3. Chicken 4. Sheep 5. Dragon 6. Tiger 7. Horse An entire episode of flashbacks which amount to death by sneak attack and then their character is forgotten, feels like a waste of time and a sorry attempt at trying to get me to care about a character. And when one of your greatest strengths is being a good character-driven show and you fall flat on a lot of basics, it doesn't due well to the overall appeal. I gave the show 6/10. Good visuals, ok attempt at character development, and made me ask myself philosophical questions. |
   I envy your delusion; I wish I could live in it  |
| I know I'm a nice guy but tbh I'm gonna have to say TL:DR, sorry I dropped the show because I didn't find it to be worth my time. Glad to see you're quite passionate about it tho. |
  Ascended Taste I only came back to this site for the forum sets and to promote my RYM list... Anilist ftw still :dab: |
| To be honest you have so much passion for this show, but you passion is your blind, the characters aré bland, the story have inconcistens, and the deaths are so anticlimatic that only the first ones produce emotions. |
Protaku said: Oh fuck man, and I thought I put a lot of effort into my most recent thread lol. Yeah, it's a character driven show and most people don't really realize that. But a character driven show doesn't mean it's a good show. The good characterization you speak of which I agree on came at the cost of the fluidity of the story. Most of these characters would not have any characterization were it not for the intrusive flashbacks. I don't think you can really objectively argue against this, as you can imagine how difficult it'd be to understand the motivations of someone like Tiger without her flashbacks. Similarly so, the focus on characterization took away from the story itself by instilling an archaic method of being able to very accurately predict who the next fatality will be: The person who just got a whole episode dedicated to themselves. Not including Boar since she was the first case example, the deaths of seven characters were foretold by the episode's focus on them. And this will subjectively vary from person to person, but I don't like how you could also predict the deaths of characters by the order of the actual Chinese zodiac. And this is more subjective, but I also wasn't a fan of how most of the characters didn't even die fighting before their untimely deaths, which include: 1. Snake 2. Dog 3. Chicken 4. Sheep 5. Dragon 6. Tiger 7. Horse An entire episode of flashbacks which amount to death by sneak attack and then their character is forgotten, feels like a waste of time and a sorry attempt at trying to get me to care about a character. And when one of your greatest strengths is being a good character-driven show and you fall flat on a lot of basics, it doesn't due well to the overall appeal. I gave the show 6/10. Good visuals, ok attempt at character development, and made me ask myself philosophical questions. I understand your point, and thankfully you aren't one of the people scolding the show just for doing what you didn't want it to, that said, however, I don't really agree with you. I think your misconception is that the show is "trying to glorify the battle royale in any way, by keeping you guessing on who will die and when", which is false. The show purposefully undermines the appeal of battle royales, because it wants you to make direct correlations with how the characters die and why. Like I said, the show does the whole spoiling thing on purpose, so instead of wasting your time on the guessing game, you are more focused on the character. That said, I also don't think that the show is trying to make you care about the characters, whether you do or don't is up to you. Juuni Taisen is a character-driven story, but the show takes up the format of a character-study, and a character-study, by definition, is supposed to separate the audience from the characters. The characters will act, the audience will analyze them, and hopefully, the audience will relate the characters back to themselves; in contrast, a typical narrative will give the audience a character to relate to first, and will see that every character in the story relates back to that character in some way, which will progress the plot. You see the difference? The untimely deaths have a purpose as well, and while it leaves the viewer disappointed if they are looking for epic fights; in context with a character-study, this feels like a much more rational choice. Tiger, for example, just by being noticed by Ox as a warrior and getting to meet him again, she obtained her wish and had nothing left to fight for--what happened next? Rabbit sneak-attacked her, and she lets Ox kill her to prevent herself from becoming a zombie. What happened with Sheep? He had really nothing left to fight for and was only there because he wanted to protect his grandson; he wasn't taking the challenge seriously so he died from at the hands of Tiger. Horse never had any will to fight, nor did he have any honor or backbone, so he fittingly died before he made a move of his own and in a pretty sucky way. See the common trend? The battle royale necessitates them to fight and die, in a pre-ordained order no less, but the show is much more focused on how their stories lead them to their death and how those with different ideals, take advantage of them with different methods. I agree that this show has some pacing issues, especially in the Snake/Dragon ark, but I hope you see now what I am saying about how the characters are handled. The characters aren't glorified and they are only in the Taisen out of necessity and obligation (except Boar (and the one who won is the one who wanted to be there the least)), so it doesn't make sense to me when people complain about them. These characters aren't fighting for a wish persay, they are either fighting for themselves, for others, or their own ideals, the wish is just the reward. The order is switched, so it is important to understand who the characters are and how they relate to each other, before understanding how obtainable their wishes were, with or without them being granted. Boar, for example, is straight-up greedy, her wish is a harem filled with hundreds of men, which is not only ridiculous but also impossible, so she is the first one to get killed off. Monkey's wish is to end all conflict, a wish that isn't technically impossible, but obtaining true peace involves a lot of compromises (meeting in the middle). Monkey's way is to instead, make the peace happen, thus she dies halfway into the series, in the middle of analyzing her fight, by something she never saw coming. Snake and Dragon only really cared about each other, so they died pretty easily. Tiger is the only one who obtained her wish, because her wish was simple, all she had to do was walk up to her idol and talk to him. Similar to Monkey, Ox strives for peace but makes it happen with bloodshed, ultimately undermining any chance he had at obtaining it, the show makes use of this irony by making the zombified Monkey pin down Ox, as if his ideals were haunting him, telling him it was impossible for him to win. Rat's wish is for comfort and stagnation, so it makes sense that he would use all of his power to do the bare minimum to survive, and it's a wish that is even simpler than Tiger's and Ox's. It seems to me that the show starts off with the most idealistic character, and ends it with the most pragmatic, in other words, it intentionally shows us the crazier side to its cast, before moving on to the simpler side, all to make a point. To make us understand that all every character has one simple thing in common each other, and we shouldn't forget that (unlike Rat). How do we end all conflict again? Perhaps, setting aside our differences and learning from one another? But nah, forget that, we want to see characters fight to the death because it is a battle royale. Well, we got what we asked for. |
| Ummmmmmmmmmmm...... A for effort? |
I'm a shitposter for fun |
| hm... have watched 6 episodes of this show and... dropped it =) It reminded be of Etotama, because of the members of the zodiac. Different from Juuni Taisen, I really did like Etotama. Juuni Taisen is basically your mindless gore fanservice anime + deaths (just like Mahou Shoujo Ikusei Keikaku). Nothing more than that to it. Don't bash me just my opinion >< |
Vi-Jan 2, 2018 6:49 PM
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| I liked it, but I could see why people were turned off by the presentation of the show. That was probably what killed its momentum. |
  Crying doesn't mean you're weak. Enduring doesn't mean you're strong. |
Draconix814 said: you should remove that honestly because that criticisms of which mentioned seems to me just as the other criticism of the character's back story being lacking and boring which you said isn't fully valid and comes to personal preference. Here are some valid criticisms of Juuni Taisen: [*]The animation and art is inconsistent (not incompetent) [*]Dragon and Snake's backstories are largely stilted and uninteresting [*]The show doesn't fully commit to most of its ideas, rather is content with just exploring it [*]There are some pacing issues [*]It lacks in worldbuilding |
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Deknijff said: Draconix814 said: you should remove that honestly because that criticisms of which mentioned seems to me just as the other criticism of the character's back story being lacking and boring which you said isn't fully valid and comes to personal preference. Here are some valid criticisms of Juuni Taisen: [*]The animation and art is inconsistent (not incompetent) [*]Dragon and Snake's backstories are largely stilted and uninteresting [*]The show doesn't fully commit to most of its ideas, rather is content with just exploring it [*]There are some pacing issues [*]It lacks in worldbuilding I think you might be right. I just don't see many ways to defend it, and most people think the same. I might revise it tomorrow. |
| For anyone upset with the anime spoiling the order in which everyone dies by giving them a backstory for the episode or if you payed attention to the credits here's a little story about the Zodiac Great Race for the 12 Creatures of the Zodiac How the Animals came to the Zodiac It is told that the Buddha, or in some stories, the Jade Emperor of Taoist divinity, sent forth Invitation to the Great Event. It was the invitation to the ultimate competition for Animals that might be named to the Zodiac for All Time. It would be the Great Race across all terrains and climax in the crossing of a Mighty River. Until then, Cat and Rat had been Friends. As Cat and Rat were the very worst swimmers, they devised a clever plan to ride the back of the strongest of the Animals – Ox – across the swift currents of the mighty river. Just as they were in sight of the shore, Rat shoved Cat into the river! Then, Rat jumped to shore ahead of Ox. Thus, Rat ensured his 1st Place in the Chinese Zodiac! And, this is why, for all Eternity, Cat will hate the water and be the sworn enemy of Rat! The 3rd animal to cross the river was Tiger. Though ferociously powerful, even Tiger was challenged by the river’s swirling undercurrents. After Tiger came Rabbit. Rabbit explained he was blown ashore on a log he climbed upon after finding no more river stones to hop along to cross. This 4th animal of the Zodiac is recognized as very fortunate, indeed. It was Dragon who blew the giant puff of air to push Rabbit’s log to shore. Dragon told Buddha that, as a flying creature, he could have arrived first. But, he had to stop to make rain for the people and creatures of earth. Thus, Dragon became the Fifth Animal in the Zodiac. While Horse appeared next, it would be Snake, hiding in Horse’s hoof that would be the 6th Animal. Snake’s sudden appearance startled Horse, giving Snake the advantage in the Great Race. And, in this way, Horse became the 7th Animal of Chinese Zodiac. Some time did pass before Ram, Monkey and Rooster reached the shore. They had all joined to work together to find a raft and clear the water reeds to cross the river. Thus, Ram became the 8th, Monkey the 9th and Rooster the 10th Animals in the Zodiac. Dog, the best swimmer of all, came in 11th. He’d gotten quite dirty racing the grueling terrain and felt in need of a good bath before he presented himself. After all, no one likes a dirty dog! Just before the closing of the Great Race, a huge squealing burst forth from the river. Pig had gotten hungry and stopped for snack and a little nap. Pig’s appetite had made him late, but he did arrive before the close of competition. So, Pig became the 12th Animal of the Chinese Zodiac. Rat, Ox, Tiger, Rabbit, Dragon, Snake, Horse, Goat, Monkey, Rooster, Dog, Boar Reverse the order and then you have the order in which they die.. The story, (which has a few variations), even describes a few fight/plot elements in the anime, Rat beat Ox after he did all the 'heavy lifting', Dragon 'helps' Rabbit cross the river like how Dragon is a zombie for Rabbit, Also how Dragon made it rain, which was similar to the falling Liquid Hydrogen, "Snake's sudden appearance startled Horse" Snake suddenly lit the building on fire startling Horse, although it wasn't quite followed through, Rooster almost teamed up with Monkey, and Boar at the very beginning even makes it a point to call out that she's late and the last one.. |
| @MCA5EY That is very interesting, thank you for sharing. |
| Before I start saying anything further I just want to say that I definitely agree with the strong and good points you made in this forum post. The characterization from my point of view was good and bad at the same time, by that I mean that there are characters and scenarios that I'd have changed if I was given the chance. For example, Horse being strong but a coward and us not being able to see much of his brute strength in use with combat, he's massive but his flashbacks of him in the army and encounter with Ox were what dug him his grave ultimately. If Horse and someone else possibly, Sheep or Boar teamed up, now that would have made things interesting, her unlimited reloading ability and Horse's super defense could have made a near impossible tank to crack. One thing that stood out in particular to me and I've even seen some people write their own fan-fiction rewrites of the scenario: How Snake died. Sure Dragon and Snake are twins and they seemed to care for one another but the whole scenario felt too short and unjustified. Dragon was more or less mad at his brother for being killed so early but there's no shaming Monkey it seems?! Did nobody catch her when she came from underground or did Dragon not keep a close enough eye on his younger brother when he sensed something about to happen? This truly makes me wonder what would have happened if the two got a 'rightful' start in the war. Sheep, sure he was an old timer but he was packing some serious firepower with those bombs he had. Again, he could have been made good use of had he teamed up with someone that could be useful, pretty much anyone would have made a good teammate for him, he's old, he'd need someone to counter that and be agile and smart. Whenever you hear the term 'war' you think of conflict or battles between nations or states but in this case it's everyone for themselves because only one person can win but rarely did anyone want victory for their family/friends, it was more of an individual self based event. Sheep, Dog and Monkey did want peace or a good ending for their friends/loved ones they knew. All of these go for the novel as well, sure it's a 'light novel' but I believe it could have been better had it been a book, after all, with a book, you won't have too many restrictions versus a light novel and people may not want to read a book over 200+ pages but with how CR promoted the heck out of this anime (and how it persuaded people to buy the light novel), I am sure people would have bought the book. Nisio could have even split it into two light novels but maybe that's asking for too much? I understand that this anime was 12 episodes and I'm not sure if it was the budget or time constraint but close to 20 episodes would have probably gave us a better wrap up not only with quality but with characters and information too. I did like how the anime did add parts to some characters and their backstory so that we were able to know more about them and I agree, props to the soundtrack, it's amazing! Good character design too. *Wish Rabbit had a backstory too, he seemed to be smart in his own ways* I know for a fact that in the sequel I believe it's Scorpio? That also does not have a backstory. I hope they don't screw up the sequel and that Nisio really did his research about the Western zodiacs because those can be pretty heavily based on personality, colors, elements and all of that stuff too, but mainly personality traits. I can see powers fitting alongside each zodiac but nothing 'too out of the ordinary' unless he manages to shock us with something fresh. Sure there were people who complained about the ending showing the order in which they died but looking past all that, it was a bit enjoyable but it's not something I would watch again |
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| By episode 3 you realised who was gonna die in each episode just by reading the episode title name and then when they did die was so anticlimactic and that ending was so bad, but I am glad you liked it good for you. |
| Juuni Taisen is good show Reason: I enjoyed it while watching it. It entertained me I don't need any other reason. If the show entertains me it is good and does not then it is bad. I don't care that much about anything else as long as I enjoy the show |
| I don't agree on your criteria, but only because I believe everything is subjective and not just enjoyment factors. Your analysis and narrative has allowed me to add an extra dimension of understanding to the show which I was already enjoying. Much appreciated post, and I am likwewise a fan of this show as it goes way beyond the mundane formula of battle royals. |
 To have you, Id give a billion lives A-Chan best girl |
| Best girl died in the first ep |
| Most underated anime on mal: https://myanimelist.net/anime/4651/Yume_no_Crayon_Oukoku?q=Yume%20ni%20crayon |
Akerakai said: Best girl died in the first ep Wrong, that was episode 3! :) |
| ^that is second best girl op |
| Most underated anime on mal: https://myanimelist.net/anime/4651/Yume_no_Crayon_Oukoku?q=Yume%20ni%20crayon |
Akerakai said: ^that is second best girl op Fight me.  character limit |
| I already won cause her being best girl is a fact Would have put an epic pic of her but dunno how to do that on a phone |
| Most underated anime on mal: https://myanimelist.net/anime/4651/Yume_no_Crayon_Oukoku?q=Yume%20ni%20crayon |
| Umm yeah not bad.. Hey Rabbit, hope ur wish come true :) |
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| Spoiler ending sequence pretty much ruined this whole thing, it's a battle royale but poorly written, wasted potential This is basically how NOT to make a battle royal 1/10 |
| I'm happy that some people spend that much time writting about how good/bad an anime is because it encourages discussion but Draconix814 said: no, we can't. we can never agree on what exactly makes a showgoodBefore I start, I want everyone here to agree on what makes an anime, manga, light novel, novel, tv show, film, or any other piece of literature "bad". Can we all agree on this criteria? That a bad show MUST HAVE:
the way you're going in your post, it seems to me you're checking "flaws" and "good points" as if it was a list. like you make a list when you go shopping"ho let's not forget milk" what I mean you can miss one of these criterias but it doesn't make the show bad. not neccesarily. there are so much things needed in order to make a show "good", I can think of a few of the top of my head: -colors(using different colors to relay the atmosphere) - having characters "bigger" on screen when they're "winning" and gaining the adventage (this can be counted in "directing" though) -having character that act as they should and not "breaking character" -having character that make sense in their worlds(guts can be as good a character you want but having him in fucking konosuba would make no sense and disoriente the viewer) well thats just a few examples of things I didn't realy know about until some times ago. what I mean is that you need a lot of experience to understand these kind of things so what I mean isn't that we can't agree on what's good, but on what defines good. ...but the vast majority of the time, we do agree. and we can agree on something that's bad but not be bothered by it too. I realise I went a bit off-topic but about the anime itself, I dropped it some times ago because I was bored and hated the character and didn't have any interest in the story. I believe EDIT: looking at the little gifs you posted, I remembered that I hated their look, their personnality and the way they acted. that's probably why. |
ZehennagelOct 29, 2018 4:37 PM
| @Zehennagel And I'm so happy this post is still getting comments 11 months later. I can truly be proud of the discussion I am barely holding still. I'm happy that some people spend that much time writting about how good/bad an anime is because it encourages discussion I agree. no, we can't. we can never agree on what exactly makes a show good I agree. Wait, I agree with this point? Of course, I do! I mean, there are different things that make any show good, and therefore makes it unique. The criteria you are responding to isn't a list of what of what makes a show good, it's the basic structures that a show has to lack in order to make it bad. Your premise is wrong from the get-go. the way you're going in your post, it seems to me you're checking "flaws" and "good points" as if it was a list. like you make a list when you go shopping "ho let's not forget milk" You didn't read the forum did you? I'm debunking criticisms of Juuni Taisen that were held against it, not checking off a list of goods and bads. That's what a review is. what I mean you can miss one of these criterias but it doesn't make the show bad. not neccesarily. there are so much things needed in order to make a show "good", I can think of a few of the top of my head: Ok, gimme your best shot. -colors(using different colors to relay the atmosphere) - having characters "bigger" on screen when they're "winning" and gaining the adventage (this can be counted in "directing" though) -having character that act as they should and not "breaking character" -having character that make sense in their worlds(guts can be as good a character you want but having him in fucking konosuba would make no sense and disoriente the viewer) Are we talking about the same thing...? You're talking about good direction, and I agree good direction is absolutely vital to a show's watching experience... but that's not what this post is about. Basically what you are saying is Criteria 4, Production, that is, if an anime has good production and a good director it can be considered good, likewise, if an anime has a shitty director with shitty direction it can be considered shitty. Lol wtf are you reading? And yeah, of course Guts wouldn't be in KonoSuba's world lol where did you even get that from. so what I mean isn't that we can't agree on what's good, but on what defines good. ...but the vast majority of the time, we do agree. and we can agree on something that's bad but not be bothered by it too. I'm glad we can agree then? I realise I went a bit off-topic but about the anime itself, I dropped it some times ago because I was bored and hated the character and didn't have any interest in the story. I believe EDIT: looking at the little gifs you posted, I remembered that I hated their look, their personnality and the way they acted. that's probably why. To each his own. Just don't mistake taste incompatibility with legitimate criticism. |
Draconix814 said: -colors(using different colors to relay the atmosphere) - having characters "bigger" on screen when they're "winning" and gaining the adventage (this can be counted in "directing" though) -having character that act as they should and not "breaking character" -having character that make sense in their worlds(guts can be as good a character you want but having him in fucking konosuba would make no sense and disoriente the viewer) Are we talking about the same thing...? You're talking about good direction, and I agree good direction is absolutely vital to a show's watching experience... but that's not what this post is about. Basically what you are saying is Criteria 4, Production, that is, if an anime has good production and a good director it can be considered good, likewise, if an anime has a shitty director with shitty direction it can be considered shitty. Lol wtf are you reading? And yeah, of course Guts wouldn't be in KonoSuba's world lol where did you even get that from. To each his own. Just don't mistake taste incompatibility with legitimate criticism.[/quote](EDIT: yes I messed up the quote don't@me)these were examples, what i meant by them is that there are a shitloads of things that can make a show good or bad and that a casual viewer doesn't know them very well. the example I provided happened to be related to directing. as for your post tbh I didn't read much past the begining because I haven't seen more than 1 episode of juuni taisen |
Zehennagel said: Draconix814 said: (EDIT: yes I messed up the quote don't@me)these were examples, what i meant by them is that there are a shitloads of things that can make a show good or bad and that a casual viewer doesn't know them very well.Are we talking about the same thing...? You're talking about good direction, and I agree good direction is absolutely vital to a show's watching experience... but that's not what this post is about. Basically what you are saying is Criteria 4, Production, that is, if an anime has good production and a good director it can be considered good, likewise, if an anime has a shitty director with shitty direction it can be considered shitty. Lol wtf are you reading? And yeah, of course Guts wouldn't be in KonoSuba's world lol where did you even get that from. To each his own. Just don't mistake taste incompatibility with legitimate criticism. the example I provided happened to be related to directing. as for your post tbh I didn't read much past the begining because I haven't seen more than 1 episode of juuni taisen I understood what you were talking about. But if you're gonna criticize how someone makes a post, I think the basic requirement would be to read it. And ha, how can you hate all the characters and how they act if you haven't seen more than a single episode? I'm genuinely curious. |
Draconix814 said: 1 episode is way more than enough to know if you hate the character or not most of the time. and I was critisizing what you said about a show being bad or not, the other part of the comment nothing to do with itZehennagel said: (EDIT: yes I messed up the quote don't@me)these were examples, what i meant by them is that there are a shitloads of things that can make a show good or bad and that a casual viewer doesn't know them very well. the example I provided happened to be related to directing. as for your post tbh I didn't read much past the begining because I haven't seen more than 1 episode of juuni taisen I understood what you were talking about. But if you're gonna criticize how someone makes a post, I think the basic requirement would be to read it. And ha, how can you hate all the characters and how they act if you haven't seen more than a single episode? I'm genuinely curious. |
Zehennagel said: Draconix814 said: 1 episode is way more than enough to know if you hate the character or not most of the time. and I was critisizing what you said about a show being bad or not, the other part of the comment nothing to do with itI understood what you were talking about. But if you're gonna criticize how someone makes a post, I think the basic requirement would be to read it. And ha, how can you hate all the characters and how they act if you haven't seen more than a single episode? I'm genuinely curious. There are twelve characters, and none of them are considered the main. Just who did you hate so much that isn't gonna be killed in an overly ironic way by the end of the series, and how did you grow to hate them so much in 20 minutes??? I know you couldn't have hated every single one of them because the only one who had the spotlight was Boar, with little interactions with the other characters. And I hope you realized by now that it was a sucky criticism, no offense. |
Draconix814 said: dude I don't remember it was so long ago. Zehennagel said: 1 episode is way more than enough to know if you hate the character or not most of the time. and I was critisizing what you said about a show being bad or not, the other part of the comment nothing to do with it There are twelve characters, and none of them are considered the main. Just who did you hate so much that isn't gonna be killed in an overly ironic way by the end of the series, and how did you grow to hate them so much in 20 minutes??? I know you couldn't have hated every single one of them because the only one who had the spotlight was Boar, with little interactions with the other characters. And I hope you realized by now that it was a sucky criticism, no offense. but if I hate and can't stand all of the character I see and I hate how they look, wether they all die like 4 episodes later or they only make half of all the main cast, that's WAY WAY more than enough to know I'm NOT gonna like the anime. and I hope you realized by now that it wasn't criticism, no offense. |
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