| If you aren't watching dragon ball super, you shouldn't click this thread. Anyways onto the topic at hand. I'm completely disinterested in dragon ball super as of late. And it took me a while to realize why, but after some thought I figured it out. There was no stakes. Nothing at risk. Now i'm sure one of you is gonna be like "but their universe might be erased!!!!!". However that's what I like to call a false premise. Their universe won't be erased. Now how do I know this for certain? Well it's simple. The final chapter of dragon ball took place 10 years after the finale with buu. As we all know, dragon ball super takes place in that time skip. Which means from a continuity perspective, there is no way the universe is gonna disappear. Which leads to the issue of stakes. There are none, as their universe isn't going anywhere. Sure for the characters and people involved, they have stakes. However we the watcher, do not. Now you could take my point far to literally and say "dragon ball super has no stakes" but that's not quite true. As the stakes in the universe 6-7 tournament and goku black arc were real. Why? Because they didn't leave the boundaries set by the ending of dragon ball. Earth being swapped to another universe doesn't change the ending of DB. See in the 10 year time skip, we don't see the supreme kai's or king kai, it could very well take place in universe 6. In the goku black arc, it's trunk's timeline in danger not goku's. While trunks is still a character we are invested in, his safety isn't guaranteed as he isn't part of the main timeline. And since future trunks is a full developed character different from kiddo trunks, you can't just say "well trunks will grow into the dude". Both of these arcs had self-contained stakes that didn't threaten continuity and thus were engaging. And while the current arc builds lore and introduces new character the stakes essentially make it so that all these characters are one and done. Or worse, that the universes were never in-danger at all and it was all melodrama. Either way, it's a terrible approach. I say this as a hardcore fan of dragon ball, I watched it growing up. To this day goku is one of my favorite characters of all time. That being said, this is sloppy writing. This isn't the first time dragon ball super had the right cards and completely flopped on execution. holy block post. I'm gonna reread this to check for errors, be sure to point out anything that reads badly. And I'm not explaining why stakes are important. That shouldn't be a thing. If you can't figure out why stakes matter, you clearly have no understanding on what makes a story work. |
AbhorrentJul 9, 2017 6:39 PM
  come, you sweet hour of death |
Red_Ryu12345 said: The writing around Goku and how he handled Krilin's PTSD after dying 3 times was insulting from a writing perspective and just morally for me. I think PTSD could have been handled better. My issue is there was no lead up, no cues. I think they had a good idea and fucked up going through with it. Rather than having krilin deal with all arc, they just had andriod 18 solve it in 1 episode. Rather than have her help krilin through it all arc and come to a real end. They keep taking great ideas and half assing the execution |
come, you sweet hour of death |
j0x said: i think its hinted that Dragon Ball Super will go beyond the ending of Dragon Ball Z anyway so there will be future stakes lol Almost like someone skimmed my post. I never said dbs has no stakes. I said this arc. And the issue isn't the dragon ball ending. They have this fucked up idea of stakes. Stakes don't always have to be life threatening. Rather than punishing everyone that loses, maybe set the stakes to something everyone would want. Bam, still have character motivation and stakes. |
come, you sweet hour of death |
| This thread should be in the dragon ball super discussion forum. I don't think the end of dragon ball z really change my view of the stuff happening in DBS. Knowing the end of dragon ball z or not, us, as the viewers, should already know the protagonists will always win at the end (in battle shounen). Even if Uni 7 loses the tournament, they will find other way to revive/survive. |
chunng said: This thread should be in the dragon ball super discussion forum. I don't think the end of dragon ball z really change my view of the stuff happening in DBS. Knowing the end of dragon ball z or not, us, as the viewers, should already know the protagonists will always win at the end (in battle shounen). Even if Uni 7 loses the tournament, they will find other way to revive/survive. It's an anime and i'm gonna discuss it. As for that, well there have been times goku and crew died. But you are right, battle shounen has a shit ton of pacing and escalation issue. This arc seems to the accumulation of the issues of how DBS is being written. |
come, you sweet hour of death |
j0x said: TheRandom said: Almost like someone skimmed my post. I never said dbs has no stakes. I said this arc. And the issue isn't the dragon ball ending. They have this fucked up idea of stakes. Stakes don't always have to be life threatening. Rather than punishing everyone that loses, maybe set the stakes to something everyone would want. Bam, still have character motivation and stakes. ye i know, you said it on your thread title that you are referring to the current arc, what im saying is the future arc after this current arc there will be stakes again ‘DRAGON BALL SUPER’ TO LEAD INTO ‘DBZ’ ENDING, COULD GO BEYOND http://www.inquisitr.com/4184108/dragon-ball-super-to-lead-into-dbz-ending-could-go-beyond/ But here's the issue with that. I'm not gonna sit through a poor executed arc just for the promise of something better. And the issue of stakes won't just be fixed with the ending of the current arc. The fundamental issue is the writing, if the writers can't even account for the ending of dbz when they make an arc, how can I expect them to correctly handle an sequel arc set after the ending. |
come, you sweet hour of death |
| yeah you are arguing how most of the arcs have no stakes involved not just the current one i also found the whole drama about universe 6 or 7 being taken to another completely retarded that would change fucking nothing for our characters |
| Like the Dragon Ball franchise has ever had any stakes to begin with. |
My Queens  |
| Thread moved Thread moved to appropriate board. |
| No stakes? Seriously? It's true that the main characters are alive and well in the end of dbz, but you're forgetting about many important points here... 1)There's no guarantee that they are in the same planet of the same universe. Perhaps all universes got destroyed and they made a new universe using the super dragon balls containing all planets and people of all universes in the same universe. Perhaps universe 7 got destroyed and universe 6 will be the actual winner or the tournament, and then in the end of dbz they are actually living in the other planet Earth of universe 6. 2)Perhaps they will reveal that the future showed in the end of dbz is actually a "would be" future if everything went all right. If Final Fantasy XIII could do it then why can't Dragon Ball do it too? Or perhaps they will reveal that the scene showed in the end of dbz was the future of Earth of a different dimension, just like there's a different dimension for Future Trunks, perhaps something will happen that will create another dimension resulting in the story having two canon futures, the one showed in dbz and the one that dbs is going to follow. 3)Who cares about Gokuu and the other main characters anyway? They are the main characters so it's obvious that they will end with a happy ending somehow, the real problem and what is really at stake here is the well being of the other characters, like all the other people of the other universes, the gods, and the angels. I really don't want Hit to die, and I'm really curious to know what will be the fate of Freeza and the blue Freeza. Perhaps Beerus, the other gods, and everyone from the other universes are dead in the end of dbz. I highly doubt this is the case, but there's nothing to prove the contrary, so it's all at stake in this arc. |
| “Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.” ― Saint Augustine |
KRKodama said: No stakes? Seriously? It's true that the main characters are alive and well in the end of dbz, but you're forgetting about many important points here... 1)There's no guarantee that they are in the same planet of the same universe. Perhaps all universes got destroyed and they made a new universe using the super dragon balls containing all planets and people of all universes in the same universe. Perhaps universe 7 got destroyed and universe 6 will be the actual winner or the tournament, and then in the end of dbz they are actually living in the other planet Earth of universe 6. 2)Perhaps they will reveal that the future showed in the end of dbz is actually a "would be" future if everything went all right. If Final Fantasy XIII could do it then why can't Dragon Ball do it too? Or perhaps they will reveal that the scene showed in the end of dbz was the future of Earth of a different dimension, just like there's a different dimension for Future Trunks, perhaps something will happen that will create another dimension resulting in the story having two canon futures, the one showed in dbz and the one that dbs is going to follow. 3)Who cares about Gokuu and the other main characters anyway? They are the main characters so it's obvious that they will end with a happy ending somehow, the real problem and what is really at stake here is the well being of the other characters, like all the other people of the other universes, the gods, and the angels. I really don't want Hit to die, and I'm really curious to know what will be the fate of Freeza and the blue Freeza. Perhaps Beerus, the other gods, and everyone from the other universes are dead in the end of dbz. I highly doubt this is the case, but there's nothing to prove the contrary, so it's all at stake in this arc. This. The TC is being bad. |
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KRKodama said: No stakes? Seriously? It's true that the main characters are alive and well in the end of dbz, but you're forgetting about many important points here... 1)There's no guarantee that they are in the same planet of the same universe. Perhaps all universes got destroyed and they made a new universe using the super dragon balls containing all planets and people of all universes in the same universe. Perhaps universe 7 got destroyed and universe 6 will be the actual winner or the tournament, and then in the end of dbz they are actually living in the other planet Earth of universe 6. 2)Perhaps they will reveal that the future showed in the end of dbz is actually a "would be" future if everything went all right. If Final Fantasy XIII could do it then why can't Dragon Ball do it too? Or perhaps they will reveal that the scene showed in the end of dbz was the future of Earth of a different dimension, just like there's a different dimension for Future Trunks, perhaps something will happen that will create another dimension resulting in the story having two canon futures, the one showed in dbz and the one that dbs is going to follow. 3)Who cares about Gokuu and the other main characters anyway? They are the main characters so it's obvious that they will end with a happy ending somehow, the real problem and what is really at stake here is the well being of the other characters, like all the other people of the other universes, the gods, and the angels. I really don't want Hit to die, and I'm really curious to know what will be the fate of Freeza and the blue Freeza. Perhaps Beerus, the other gods, and everyone from the other universes are dead in the end of dbz. I highly doubt this is the case, but there's nothing to prove the contrary, so it's all at stake in this arc. 1) That's not good writing there. Since the main characters of universe 7 are people we are most invested in, as long as they live the rest is minor. A "haha you got pranked bro" moment where they all get moved to another universe isn't good writing, it's just the writers giving themselves an out. 2) that's also not good writing. That's moving the finish line, retconning the ending to someone else's greatest work to suit your adaptation isn't creativity, it's laziness. Being able to use limitations to your advantage is good writing. This is a classic example of why escalation is a massive issue in battle shounen. 3) they are the most characterized of the cast. That's like saying "who gives a shit about your oldest friends?". They are people this show is about, it's their struggles we the audience are supposed to care about. And just because you are interested in how things in the other story lines going on in this arc doesn't change the fact that due to the lack of actual danger towards the main cast they're no stakes. you seem to mistake the concept of stakes with reasons to watch this show. Am I saying there is no reason to watch dbs? nah i'm not. But i'll be damned if someone is trying to convince me that there are stakes. Not to mention the fact that this show is literally set in the 10 year time skip before the end of dragon ball. Why would they change the ending if they specified that it's before the ending. Why would the timeline matter if you were gonna disregard the ending either way? |
come, you sweet hour of death |
| We all know that the main characters can't die, don't we? Apart from that, it's not like the tournament has no stake at all, the losers will get erased, I'm sure that at the end of the tournament Goku will stand against it and will try to convince Zen-Oh, if he can it's ok, but I want a fight against the angels. |
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Ulquiorra said: We all know that the main characters can't die, don't we? Apart from that, it's not like the tournament has no stake at all, the losers will get erased, I'm sure that at the end of the tournament Goku will stand against it and will try to convince Zen-Oh, if he can it's ok, but I want a fight against the angels. Once again, if the story put more emphasis on side characters i would be inclined to agree. And a fight against angels would be a whole new arc. The stakes don't effect everyone equally which is why I'm less interested |
come, you sweet hour of death |
Ulquiorra said: That's what I'm think they setting up for tbh. Since the Great Priest looks shady af. We all know that the main characters can't die, don't we? Apart from that, it's not like the tournament has no stake at all, the losers will get erased, I'm sure that at the end of the tournament Goku will stand against it and will try to convince Zen-Oh, if he can it's ok, but I want a fight against the angels. TBH tho Dragon Ball Z didn't even have stakes tbh. We all know the heroes will win in the end but it's the execution that matters. Goku Black arc ending for example had Trunks and Mai go to a completely new future since they actually lost their friends and now they have to live in the future hiding out. It's quite sad when you think about it. I'm sure something serious will happen in this arc that will play a part of the future of DBS. |
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Itachi said: Ulquiorra said: That's what I'm think they setting up for tbh. Since the Great Priest looks shady af. We all know that the main characters can't die, don't we? Apart from that, it's not like the tournament has no stake at all, the losers will get erased, I'm sure that at the end of the tournament Goku will stand against it and will try to convince Zen-Oh, if he can it's ok, but I want a fight against the angels. TBH tho Dragon Ball Z didn't even have stakes tbh. We all know the heroes will win in the end but it's the execution that matters. Goku Black arc ending for example had Trunks and Mai go to a completely new future since they actually lost their friends and now they have to live in the future hiding out. It's quite sad when you think about it. I'm sure something serious will happen in this arc that will play a part of the future of DBS. When they had to defeat Kid Buu, if Goku was killed by buu everything would have been Lost tho, at some point buu was gonna destroy Namek and the rest of the planets after killing Goku n vegeta. Who Would fight vs the angels tho? Not even beerus can touch them lol unless some stay good and other go evil so we can have whis vs other angels. |
TheRandom said: KRKodama said: No stakes? Seriously? It's true that the main characters are alive and well in the end of dbz, but you're forgetting about many important points here... 1)There's no guarantee that they are in the same planet of the same universe. Perhaps all universes got destroyed and they made a new universe using the super dragon balls containing all planets and people of all universes in the same universe. Perhaps universe 7 got destroyed and universe 6 will be the actual winner or the tournament, and then in the end of dbz they are actually living in the other planet Earth of universe 6. 2)Perhaps they will reveal that the future showed in the end of dbz is actually a "would be" future if everything went all right. If Final Fantasy XIII could do it then why can't Dragon Ball do it too? Or perhaps they will reveal that the scene showed in the end of dbz was the future of Earth of a different dimension, just like there's a different dimension for Future Trunks, perhaps something will happen that will create another dimension resulting in the story having two canon futures, the one showed in dbz and the one that dbs is going to follow. 3)Who cares about Gokuu and the other main characters anyway? They are the main characters so it's obvious that they will end with a happy ending somehow, the real problem and what is really at stake here is the well being of the other characters, like all the other people of the other universes, the gods, and the angels. I really don't want Hit to die, and I'm really curious to know what will be the fate of Freeza and the blue Freeza. Perhaps Beerus, the other gods, and everyone from the other universes are dead in the end of dbz. I highly doubt this is the case, but there's nothing to prove the contrary, so it's all at stake in this arc. 1) That's not good writing there. Since the main characters of universe 7 are people we are most invested in, as long as they live the rest is minor. A "haha you got pranked bro" moment where they all get moved to another universe isn't good writing, it's just the writers giving themselves an out. 2) that's also not good writing. That's moving the finish line, retconning the ending to someone else's greatest work to suit your adaptation isn't creativity, it's laziness. Being able to use limitations to your advantage is good writing. This is a classic example of why escalation is a massive issue in battle shounen. 3) they are the most characterized of the cast. That's like saying "who gives a shit about your oldest friends?". They are people this show is about, it's their struggles we the audience are supposed to care about. And just because you are interested in how things in the other story lines going on in this arc doesn't change the fact that due to the lack of actual danger towards the main cast they're no stakes. you seem to mistake the concept of stakes with reasons to watch this show. Am I saying there is no reason to watch dbs? nah i'm not. But i'll be damned if someone is trying to convince me that there are stakes. Not to mention the fact that this show is literally set in the 10 year time skip before the end of dragon ball. Why would they change the ending if they specified that it's before the ending. Why would the timeline matter if you were gonna disregard the ending either way? It has nothing to do with good or bad writing. You wrote that there are no stakes and you're wrong because there clearly are stakes as I explained. It's Akira's own sequel of his own work and he can do whatever he wants with it, like moving the "finish line" that he already did by placing Frieza instead of Buu in the tournament even though Buu had already been shown as one of the fighters in the tournament, and if it has been done once then it can be done twice, and it has already been done twice because it's not the first time it happens. Captain Ginyu didn't appear in Dragon Ball Resurrection F so he was supposedly alive in the end of it as a frog, but he died in the tv version of it, so I'll not be surprised if the same happens in the scene that was showed in the end of dbz, some characters can be removed and others added to it according to the will of Akira Toriyama. Whose fate has more relevance in the story for you is just your opinion, and you can't simply state as a fact that the fate of the other characters don't count as stakes only because you don't care about them. The point here is that there are stakes even if you don't care about them. We as readers/watchers can even choose our "main characters" depending on our points of view. And how can you determine that "new friends" of super won't become "old friends" eventually? We don't know for how long the Dragon Ball series will continue. Who has more relevance in the story actually... Yancha who was in the series since the beginning of Dragon Ball or Vegeta who only appeared in Dragon Ball Z? Who is a main character now, Yancha or Vegeta? And how can you be sure that the same won't happen with Hit or any other character in super? Beerus has clearly a lot more relevance and screen time than most of the "main characters" of the series up to dragon ball z. And you're playing dumb to what I said about Freeza. If you don't care about him then you're the odd one because I'm pretty sure that most people are really curious to know what he is planning to do in the tournament and what will happen with him in the end of it all. Perhaps he may even end up becoming an anti hero eventually and then a completely good guy, like happened with Piccolo and Vegeta. And as for "changing the ending", what I said about the "would be future" or future of another dimension is still valid. Whether this would be good writing or not is just your point of view and you're welcome to rate it however you want when/if it happens, but you can't deny the possibility of it happening. |
ColtBuntlineJul 12, 2017 11:36 PM
| “Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.” ― Saint Augustine |
| Dragon Ball Z never had good writing and that's just a fact. |
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KRKodama said: TheRandom said: 1) That's not good writing there. Since the main characters of universe 7 are people we are most invested in, as long as they live the rest is minor. A "haha you got pranked bro" moment where they all get moved to another universe isn't good writing, it's just the writers giving themselves an out. 2) that's also not good writing. That's moving the finish line, retconning the ending to someone else's greatest work to suit your adaptation isn't creativity, it's laziness. Being able to use limitations to your advantage is good writing. This is a classic example of why escalation is a massive issue in battle shounen. 3) they are the most characterized of the cast. That's like saying "who gives a shit about your oldest friends?". They are people this show is about, it's their struggles we the audience are supposed to care about. And just because you are interested in how things in the other story lines going on in this arc doesn't change the fact that due to the lack of actual danger towards the main cast they're no stakes. you seem to mistake the concept of stakes with reasons to watch this show. Am I saying there is no reason to watch dbs? nah i'm not. But i'll be damned if someone is trying to convince me that there are stakes. Not to mention the fact that this show is literally set in the 10 year time skip before the end of dragon ball. Why would they change the ending if they specified that it's before the ending. Why would the timeline matter if you were gonna disregard the ending either way? It has nothing to do with good or bad writing. You wrote that there are no stakes and you're wrong because there clearly are stakes as I explained. It's Akira's own sequel of his own work and he can do whatever he wants with it, like moving the "finish line" that he already did by placing Frieza instead of Buu in the tournament even though Buu had already been shown as one of the fighters in the tournament, and if it has been done once then it can be done twice, and it has already been done twice because it's not the first time it happens. Captain Ginyu didn't appear in Dragon Ball Resurrection F so he was supposedly alive in the end of it as a frog, but he died in the tv version of it, so I'll not be surprised if the same happens in the scene that was showed in the end of dbz, some characters can be removed and others added to it according to the will of Akira Toriyama. Whose fate has more relevance in the story for you is just your opinion, and you can't simply state as a fact that the fate of the other characters don't count as stakes only because you don't care about them. The point here is that there are stakes even if you don't care about them. We as readers/watchers can even choose our "main characters" depending on our points of view. And how can you determine that "new friends" of super won't become "old friends" eventually? We don't know for how long the Dragon Ball series will continue. Who has more relevance in the story actually... Yancha who was in the series since the beginning of Dragon Ball or Vegeta who only appeared in Dragon Ball Z? Who is a main character now, Yancha or Vegeta? And how can you be sure that the same won't happen with Hit or any other character in super? Beerus has clearly a lot more relevance and screen time than most of the "main characters" of the series up to dragon ball z. And you're playing dumb to what I said about Freeza. If you don't care about him then you're the odd one because I'm pretty sure that most people are really curious to know what he is planning to do in the tournament and what will happen with him in the end of it all. Perhaps he may even end up becoming an anti hero eventually and then a completely good guy, like happened with Piccolo and Vegeta. And as for "changing the ending", what I said about the "would be future" or future of another dimension is still valid. Whether this would be good writing or not is just your point of view and you're welcome to rate it however you want when/if it happens, but you can't deny the possibility of it happening. Okay. So let me get this straight. Your concept of stakes is a minor character and their universe being destroyed. Am I reading this correctly? You care that the new foil to goku, hit, might die. That's your idea of stakes? And that's a whole new ball park with that yamcha vs vegeta bs. Vegeta since his inception has been has been a large part of the dbz story. He was characterized and fleshed out. Hit was not, he just is a foil to goku who appears from time to time. There is very little actual characterization of hit. But let's forget all that. If dbs is sent in an alternate dimension then it isn't consider canon to the prime dimension. That's like saying "oh so none of this really happened" it's akin to "this was all a dream". It's a cop-out for writers who can't find a way to have proper continuity. Further more the frieza argument isn't relevant to anything in this argument. The fact of the matter is, we know the main cast is gonna live and thus there is no worry or suspense in their fate. I could say the same about the first 2 arcs as well as they were adaptions of the movies. You are putting on the blinders because you like this series. If you can't admit to it's flaws than you aren't worth talking to. |
come, you sweet hour of death |
TheRandom said: KRKodama said: It has nothing to do with good or bad writing. You wrote that there are no stakes and you're wrong because there clearly are stakes as I explained. It's Akira's own sequel of his own work and he can do whatever he wants with it, like moving the "finish line" that he already did by placing Frieza instead of Buu in the tournament even though Buu had already been shown as one of the fighters in the tournament, and if it has been done once then it can be done twice, and it has already been done twice because it's not the first time it happens. Captain Ginyu didn't appear in Dragon Ball Resurrection F so he was supposedly alive in the end of it as a frog, but he died in the tv version of it, so I'll not be surprised if the same happens in the scene that was showed in the end of dbz, some characters can be removed and others added to it according to the will of Akira Toriyama. Whose fate has more relevance in the story for you is just your opinion, and you can't simply state as a fact that the fate of the other characters don't count as stakes only because you don't care about them. The point here is that there are stakes even if you don't care about them. We as readers/watchers can even choose our "main characters" depending on our points of view. And how can you determine that "new friends" of super won't become "old friends" eventually? We don't know for how long the Dragon Ball series will continue. Who has more relevance in the story actually... Yancha who was in the series since the beginning of Dragon Ball or Vegeta who only appeared in Dragon Ball Z? Who is a main character now, Yancha or Vegeta? And how can you be sure that the same won't happen with Hit or any other character in super? Beerus has clearly a lot more relevance and screen time than most of the "main characters" of the series up to dragon ball z. And you're playing dumb to what I said about Freeza. If you don't care about him then you're the odd one because I'm pretty sure that most people are really curious to know what he is planning to do in the tournament and what will happen with him in the end of it all. Perhaps he may even end up becoming an anti hero eventually and then a completely good guy, like happened with Piccolo and Vegeta. And as for "changing the ending", what I said about the "would be future" or future of another dimension is still valid. Whether this would be good writing or not is just your point of view and you're welcome to rate it however you want when/if it happens, but you can't deny the possibility of it happening. Okay. So let me get this straight. Your concept of stakes is a minor character and their universe being destroyed. Am I reading this correctly? You care that the new foil to goku, hit, might die. That's your idea of stakes? And that's a whole new ball park with that yamcha vs vegeta bs. Vegeta since his inception has been has been a large part of the dbz story. He was characterized and fleshed out. Hit was not, he just is a foil to goku who appears from time to time. There is very little actual characterization of hit. But let's forget all that. If dbs is sent in an alternate dimension then it isn't consider canon to the prime dimension. That's like saying "oh so none of this really happened" it's akin to "this was all a dream". It's a cop-out for writers who can't find a way to have proper continuity. Further more the frieza argument isn't relevant to anything in this argument. The fact of the matter is, we know the main cast is gonna live and thus there is no worry or suspense in their fate. I could say the same about the first 2 arcs as well as they were adaptions of the movies. You are putting on the blinders because you like this series. If you can't admit to it's flaws than you aren't worth talking to. No one can say for sure who are going to be the minor or the main characters as the story goes on. You are reading it wrongly. I care that Hit might die. That's my idea of stakes. My comparison of Yamcha vs Vegeta is not a bs. There's no way for you to tell how relevant Hit will become in the story, he may even take the place of the protagonist instead of Gokuu if Akira wishes to do so. Anything can happen in the story written by someone. No, let's not forget all that, don't play dumb to my arguments. Oh yeah, even if Dragon Ball Super is sent to another dimension it's still canon to the "prime dimension", and we can't say for sure which one is the "prime dimension". We're dealing with Gods and Angels who can easily mess up with time and dimensions, so it's nothing to be surprised, and there's already another dimension that Trunks is in which Gokuu died of a sickness. And you're ignoring what I said that it has nothing to do with good or bad writing. The point is that you can't deny the possibility of it happening. The Frieza argument is perfectly relevant to everything in this argument. No, we don't know if the main cast is going to live and thus there is worry and suspense in their fate. We don't know what will be the main cast in the future and you can only say what is the main cast in your opinion, not universally. In my opinion Beerus and Frieza are definitely not minor characters, and we don't know what will happen to them. And the same goes for Gokuu, Vegeta, etc. because their fates can be changed and Akira can change the timeline as much as he wants, so everything is at stake here. I'm not putting on the blinders at all. And again, it has nothing to do with having flaws or not, it has to do with the possibility of it happening, and anything can happen in the series. You're perfectly well aware that you're permitted to stop talking to me whenever you want if you don't consider me worth talking to. |
| “Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.” ― Saint Augustine |
| Arent the Super Dragon Balls Spread Between Univere 6 and 7? So that means if Universe 6 is destroyed then they wouldnt be able to summon super shenlong because half of the dragon ball will be gone, nvm I guess I forgot that they already Gathered the Super Dragon Balls for this tournament and Champa Donated 3 of them so Not sure if he is having an special trait. But what happens after using the dragon balls if universe 6 is destroyed? Where Would they go after the wish? unless they wish for universe 6 first. I dont think you can wish for all the universes to come back at once, thats 2 much power, Maybe 1 at a time, because if you wish for all the universes to come back then the 6 universes that were erased along time ago Would come back, and the other thing is if you have 1 wish you cannot Wish for both, the universes to return and Life to come back. |
IcyGlacier said: Where the Super Dragon Balls go is not even the main problem here!Arent the Super Dragon Balls Spread Between Univere 6 and 7? So that means if Universe 6 is destroyed then they wouldnt be able to summon super shenlong because half of the dragon ball will be gone, nvm I guess I forgot that they already Gathered the Super Dragon Balls for this tournament and Champa Donated 3 of them so Not sure if he is having an special trait. But what happens after using the dragon balls if universe 6 is destroyed? Where Would they go after the wish? unless they wish for universe 6 first. I dont think you can wish for all the universes to come back at once, thats 2 much power, Maybe 1 at a time, because if you wish for all the universes to come back then the 6 universes that were erased along time ago Would come back, and the other thing is if you have 1 wish you cannot Wish for both, the universes to return and Life to come back. Think with me... If Beerus uses the "Hakai" in any living being, he can't be wished back to life, no matter which Dragon Balls you use! So, how can you use the Super Dragon Ball to bring back a Universe that was erased from existence by a tecnique that is far superior to the "Hakai"? Besides, if the Super Dragon Balls manage, by some miracle, to bring a Universe back, wouldn't they be at Zeno's level? |
azertyY said: IcyGlacier said: Where the Super Dragon Balls go is not even the main problem here!Arent the Super Dragon Balls Spread Between Univere 6 and 7? So that means if Universe 6 is destroyed then they wouldnt be able to summon super shenlong because half of the dragon ball will be gone, nvm I guess I forgot that they already Gathered the Super Dragon Balls for this tournament and Champa Donated 3 of them so Not sure if he is having an special trait. But what happens after using the dragon balls if universe 6 is destroyed? Where Would they go after the wish? unless they wish for universe 6 first. I dont think you can wish for all the universes to come back at once, thats 2 much power, Maybe 1 at a time, because if you wish for all the universes to come back then the 6 universes that were erased along time ago Would come back, and the other thing is if you have 1 wish you cannot Wish for both, the universes to return and Life to come back. Think with me... If Beerus uses the "Hakai" in any living being, he can't be wished back to life, no matter which Dragon Balls you use! So, how can you use the Super Dragon Ball to bring back a Universe that was erased from existence by a tecnique that is far superior to the "Hakai"? Besides, if the Super Dragon Balls manage, by some miracle, to bring a Universe back, wouldn't they be at Zeno's level? Well I dont know if the people that get Hakai cant be Wished back, they never actually tried but im pretty sure they can. We only know that the ppl that get Hakai dont go to the afterlife, so the normal dragon balls from earth or namek cant do anything for the people that got erased but the super dragon balls can be the Special case. Makes no sense to compare the level of the Dragon Ball to Zeno, bringing a Universe back should be nothing for the Super Dragon Balls. they dont need to be on Zeno level to be able to bring stuff he destroyed, unless you meant something else. The actual problem but this is not confirmed yet its that the SuperDB can only grant 1 wish and I doubt that you can bring all universes back with just 1 wish, its most likely 1 Universe at a time and even if you did you cant wish the people back with only 1 wish, so its gonna take a pretty long time to Fix everything up unless the Dragon Balls can do all that in 1 wish which I doubt. And the Worst is that the Angels and Beerus wont even help in searching the Super Dragon balls that spread in 2 universes which makes it incredible hard for Goku to do. |
Ppl wondering why a Japanese anime don't got no steaks |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
are you kidding? thats beerus favorite Food. You can also search for Z warriors Eating and watch the DBZ Buu saga one, thats my fav eating vid. |
IcyGlacier said: are you kidding? thats beerus favorite Food. You can also search for Z warriors Eating and watch the DBZ Buu saga one, thats my fav eating vid. I tried googling around, but only found Buu turning ppl into chocolates and eating them <.< |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
TheRandom said: If you aren't watching dragon ball super, you shouldn't click this thread. Anyways onto the topic at hand. I'm completely disinterested in dragon ball super as of late. And it took me a while to realize why, but after some thought I figured it out. There was no stakes. Nothing at risk. Now i'm sure one of you is gonna be like "but their universe might be erased!!!!!". However that's what I like to call a false premise. Their universe won't be erased. Now how do I know this for certain? Well it's simple. The final chapter of dragon ball took place 10 years after the finale with buu. As we all know, dragon ball super takes place in that time skip. Which means from a continuity perspective, there is no way the universe is gonna disappear. Which leads to the issue of stakes. There are none, as their universe isn't going anywhere. Sure for the characters and people involved, they have stakes. However we the watcher, do not. Now you could take my point far to literally and say "dragon ball super has no stakes" but that's not quite true. As the stakes in the universe 6-7 tournament and goku black arc were real. Why? Because they didn't leave the boundaries set by the ending of dragon ball. Earth being swapped to another universe doesn't change the ending of DB. See in the 10 year time skip, we don't see the supreme kai's or king kai, it could very well take place in universe 6. In the goku black arc, it's trunk's timeline in danger not goku's. While trunks is still a character we are invested in, his safety isn't guaranteed as he isn't part of the main timeline. And since future trunks is a full developed character different from kiddo trunks, you can't just say "well trunks will grow into the dude". Both of these arcs had self-contained stakes that didn't threaten continuity and thus were engaging. And while the current arc builds lore and introduces new character the stakes essentially make it so that all these characters are one and done. Or worse, that the universes were never in-danger at all and it was all melodrama. Either way, it's a terrible approach. I say this as a hardcore fan of dragon ball, I watched it growing up. To this day goku is one of my favorite characters of all time. That being said, this is sloppy writing. This isn't the first time dragon ball super had the right cards and completely flopped on execution. holy block post. I'm gonna reread this to check for errors, be sure to point out anything that reads badly. And I'm not explaining why stakes are important. That shouldn't be a thing. If you can't figure out why stakes matter, you clearly have no understanding on what makes a story work. SOOOOOO.....For me it's a bit different. I understand what you mean by stakes but think of it like this. The current Uub, 10 years later scenario can theoretically be rewritten, Toriyama can just scrap the original ending and claim that the fighters messing with timelines intervened in the future of what would have been. Toriyama might not have been happy with the Z ending after all these years and could change it (he is the actual god of the Z-verse after all) Or you can view this is a new timeline, Personally I would love to see universe 7 obliterated, but the 10 from universe 7 kept alive, maybe for a Redemption arc or such, BUT that is unlikely. There's so many actual variables that can happen and it all depends on the writers end process and what they believe will be the correct ending for DBS. Personnaly I hated GT, but I loved the ending of GT. I thought it really closed it out, I wouldnt mind seeing Goku disappear and be just a myth. |
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| I would agree with the sentiment that the current happenings in Super have no real weight to them. A lot of it has to do with power creep, something Dragon Ball has struggled with ever since the Namek Saga (arguably earlier as well, but it really became apparent then). In order to give Goku stronger opponents, the whole "multiple universes" thing was created. Ok, fine, now we have more leeway to create some interesting villains and interactio..... and it's just a tournament where everyone is fighting at the same time... Aside from a handful of universes who were "exempt" every other universe, and corresponding characters, got shoved into the same pot. The fact that they're building up the Goku/Jiren fight so hard makes everything else unimportant. Which frankly has always been a problem with Dragon Ball. There's really no B or C plots to be had to keep the interest until the headliner fight. It all just falls under the same umbrella of the battle royale. Some people might groan at the comparison, but look at One Piece. Specifically the Dressrosa arc. There are things happening everywhere, shit going wrong at every possible turn. There are multiple smaller plots contributing to the final headliner fight. Super has none of that. DBZ had some of that with the Namek saga and the Android saga. The biggest problem with Dragon Ball is that it's always "that one guy who's a threat". When there's just one bad guy (Cell, Buu) there's not really much wiggle room for additional stories to be told around the main plot. Weirdly enough, The Tournament of Power arc the same problem even though there are a bunch of other fighters involved, but since it's all encompassed in the same general fight it has no weight to it. And that's before the whole "but their universe might get destroyed" argument comes into play. We know Goku will win, because he's supposed to win. Even if by a longshot that doesn't happen, the existence of the Super Dragon Balls guarantees that Goku can wish the universes back into place, or that Goku's loss can be negated. |
| My take in all of this is that Akira Toriyama is in control of his creation and whatever he decides on where and what goes on the Dragon Ball is entirely up to him. If he wants to go a different direction from the DBZ ending then let it be. It was ambiguous from the get go plus GT was never his intended storyline in the first place. You guys are buying too much into this DBZ ending. I'm pretty sure Toriyama wasn't thinking about Beerus, Angels, Omni King etc when DBZ ended in 1996. I'm just glad DB is alive and not dead and forgotten like all the other manga/anime. To me; the DBZ ending after the 10 year skip was just ONE of possible endings. |
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