| Forgive me if this is not worthy of a discussion, but I see highly negative feedback to Berserk 2016's premiere, and I can't help but find it familiar. I am wondering if others feel the same about the negativity. When Berserk 1997 was first dubbed in the states, I heard nothing but derision of its voice cast, animation, and music. I heard things like "the voice cast was too amateur, the story isn't accurate, the animation was a slide show, and the music was so out of place" among other complaints. Additionally, forums would often mock the story and say it's just a teaser for the manga. Naturally, the score on MAL was lower than it now, as well. Fast forward to Berserk 2016 when episode 1 has just premiered. There is nothing but derision of its animation and music. People are saying "The CGI hiccups like a slide show, the story doesn't follow correctly, and the metal is so out of place." The forums are alight with flame wars of rebellion and cynicism. It seems like people love Berserk 1997 now; there's almost nothing but praise for it, even though the first episode of that was sluggish to say the least. Comparatively, Berserk 2016's first episode says a great deal more about Guts' character, and even gives him more lines, taken straight from the manga. So, what's the deal? It seems either people are being overly pessimistic, or don't realize Berserk's actual legacy; Berserk has never started off strong, nor has it ever possessed silky animation, renowned composition, or logical story structure. Are we watching history repeat itself or is this show actually bad? I think it's the former and that people will eventually love Berserk 2016 after shedding their rosy retrospective glasses. |
BrockemsockemJul 6, 2016 11:24 PM
| I don't really remember that far back but I do know that the old Berserk gets mostly praise. Especially for its music. |
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G_Spark233 said: I don't really remember that far back but I do know that the old Berserk gets mostly praise. Especially for its music. Yes, now it does, anyway, and I do agree with the praise. Still, I recall quite a division of fans saying the score was too upbeat, the opening and ending were anachronistic to the story, etc. In 2016, it seems like we're seeing the same complaints, only much more fervent, as if these design choices are transgressions. |
Haha, you're great. |
| Yeah, I try to keep in mind that the 97 anime didn't have a great start either. But, it also didn't skip quite as much material either, and that is what I'm really disappointed about. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
G_Spark233 said: I don't really remember that far back but I do know that the old Berserk gets mostly praise. Especially for its music. I completely and totally disagree with this. The 1997 adaptation deserves praise for a lot of things but the music sure as hell isn't one of them. The soundtrack is horrifically repetitive and generally not well-placed, and the opening theme is honestly the worst I've ever heard. I seriously can't think of one that's worse. What was great about the original was not the technical details: it didn't look or sound that great. But they got the story and characters right. And that's all they had to do. With the new one, they don't seem to have any grasp over what the tone of Berserk is or how to present its characters. In my opinion they've got about 35% of the story correct and maybe 60% of the characterization correct. Sure, they've got time to improve and clean things up, but at this point I don't feel great about the direction it's going. |
| Every adaption so far has the same major flaws. Inconsistent animation quality and plot skipping. The 2016 adaption seems to only "enhance" those flaws and take them to the next level. |
| Nah, I can't stand the original anime. The music is stellar however, and the English outtakes are pretty amusing. |
BadVoodoo said: G_Spark233 said: I don't really remember that far back but I do know that the old Berserk gets mostly praise. Especially for its music. I completely and totally disagree with this. The 1997 adaptation deserves praise for a lot of things but the music sure as hell isn't one of them. The soundtrack is horrifically repetitive and generally not well-placed, and the opening theme is honestly the worst I've ever heard. I seriously can't think of one that's worse. Some tracks are great in my opinion, such as the Guts theme, Earth and Murder. About the opening soundtrack... not sure what they were thinking at the time. But honestly, I dislike the song they chose for this anime's OP as well, it just doesn't remind me of Berserk at all. The song for the movies, Aria, was amazing though. |
G_Spark233 said: Same, I was only 4 months old when it started airing.I don't really remember that far back but I do know that the old Berserk gets mostly praise. Especially for its music. |
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zombie_pegasus said: G_Spark233 said: Same, I was only 4 months old when it started airing.I don't really remember that far back but I do know that the old Berserk gets mostly praise. Especially for its music.  ............................. |
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MysteriousBanana said: The criticism of the 1997 and 2016 adaptations have very different circumstances, in my opinion. If you're referring specifically to the NA dub of the original anime, then I have to point out that was actually in 2002, so if people were complaining about the animation based solely on the DVD release, then they were judging animation that was five years old. That may not sound like a huge amount of time, but by 2002 people would have been comparing Berserk to titles like Ghost in the Shell: SAC. Still frames weren't uncommon in '97 anime, so it wasn't bad by the standards of the time it was actually aired. The complaints of Berserk 2016's animations are comparing it to its current peers, not some standard that's five years in the future. The whole point of using CG animation is so animators don't have to resort to still frames and slow motion to cut corners during production, yet we see that being used (along with extreme closeups) a bit too liberally in this series - maybe it's meant to harken back to the still frames of the '97 anime, but CG is an incredibly poor choice for that style, particularly if the models can't stand up to such close scrutiny; additionally CG animation is supposed to introduce consistency into the animation, yet it seems like the modeling/rendering team and regular art team never compared works because Guts keeps losing and gaining 20 pounds whenever they switch between 2D and 3D. So as far as animations go, comparing the reactions to Berserk '97 and Berserk 2016 is unfair; the former didn't do anything technically wrong for its time, it just got judged at higher standards because of a late localization, while the latter is being judged harshly because not only does it do CGI poorly compared to other CGI titles that came before it, the studio also seems intent on not utilizing any of the advantages that CGI gives. The animation argument doesn't make any sense if you're looking at it from a technological perspective, though. Many Gundam series, Revolutionary girl Utena, Outlaw Star, and tons of well-animated shows came out at that time; Berserk 1997's shortcomings of animation had nothing to do with technology or industry practice and everything to do with lack of budget. Still, 1997 gets praise while Berserk 2016 gets hate. That's what perplexes me so. On_the_Lam said: As some others pointed out, when Berserk came out the animation was mostly ok and on-par with other series that came out in the same time period. Animation improved at an incredible pace when Berserk was dubbed. It was absolutely not on-par with the other series that came out. It was mostly hand-drawn stills. I recommend going back and watching some 90's anime, especially other manga adaptations and OVAs; a great deal of them look more realistic and have more detail than shows today. Don't forget, Cowboy Bebop was a 1998 anime, one year later than Berserk 1997. Status_Effect said: Nah, I can't stand the original anime. The music is stellar however, and the English outtakes are pretty amusing. Haha, yes, the English outtakes are the best bloopers of any show ever. They had an astoundingly talented and personable crew and I was so glad to see them return in the movies. 8track said: I think history is repeating itself since the 2016 version skips the Black Swordsman arc, just like how the 1997 version did. A very interesting point. Can we be certain they're skipping the arc and not just condensing with the next? It seems as if they didn't want to spend time on the original manga since it basically just leads to the Golden Age flashback? ziggy_Z, unf. |
BrockemsockemJul 12, 2016 6:27 AM
| Wait, what? He didn't say he's never read the manga, he said at the time he first saw the anime he hadn't read it. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
G_Spark233 said: I don't really remember that far back but I do know that the old Berserk gets mostly praise. Especially for its music. Susumu Hirasawa's ost for the 90s anime was god tier, really fit with the atmosphere of Berserk. |
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BadVoodoo said: G_Spark233 said: I don't really remember that far back but I do know that the old Berserk gets mostly praise. Especially for its music. I completely and totally disagree with this. The 1997 adaptation deserves praise for a lot of things but the music sure as hell isn't one of them. The soundtrack is horrifically repetitive and generally not well-placed, and the opening theme is honestly the worst I've ever heard. I seriously can't think of one that's worse. Definitely going to have to disagree with you in regards to the music, I love it. And I know I'm far from the only one, it always seems to get praised whenever the 90s series is brought up in conversation (just like in this thread). I mean sure its 'Engrish-ey' as all hell, but I thought it suited the animated series they made in a weird but true way. Actually, I think it was the utter catchy strangeness of it combined with the atmosphere of certain tracks. But I watched this series way back in the day, way before I had even heard of manga in general. The Berserk anime was largely responsible for getting me into anime in the first place. Of course the manga has trumped it in every way (being the equivalent of a Shakespearian masterpiece) Anyway it just goes to show how much personal taste matters with these sorts of things. What is not subjective however is the butchery of these new anime, just shameful. I won't even bother with this new one, the movies were painful enough! |
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LayedBack said: Anyway it just goes to show how much personal taste matters with these sorts of things. What is not subjective however is the butchery of these new anime, just shameful. I won't even bother with this new one, the movies were painful enough! That's exactly what I'm trying to understand: where is the butchery? You can't honestly expect an adaptation of a manga that's been going for twenty-five years to cover absolutely everything faithfully; the 1997 series didn't, either, so why has the standard suddenly changed for the movies and the 2016 series? It obviously is subjective because I've enjoyed absolutely everything Berserk-related, albeit not equally. |
Brockemsockem said: That's exactly what I'm trying to understand: where is the butchery? You can't honestly expect an adaptation of a manga that's been going for twenty-five years to cover absolutely everything faithfully; the 1997 series didn't, either, so why has the standard suddenly changed for the movies and the 2016 series? Hunter x Hunter 2011 and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure 2012 happened (for example). While 1997 skipped some stuff about the Golden Age Arc it didn't skip and merge nearly as much as this new 2016 adaption appears to be doing, we can only hope there will be tons of flashbacks in the future. And are we wrong to expect better as time goes on? |
Mezziaz said: Hunter x Hunter 2011 and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure 2012 happened (for example). While 1997 skipped some stuff about the Golden Age Arc it didn't skip and merge nearly as much as this new 2016 adaption appears to be doing, we can only hope there will be tons of flashbacks in the future. And are we wrong to expect better as time goes on? Both of which were not 100% faithful adaptations, either. Hunter x Hunter 2011, for example, rockets through tons of story content in just its first episode alone without expanding on much of any of it. This is especially evident upon viewing the first HxH series that takes several developmental episodes to get to the same plot point. I never said anything of the sort in regards to better expectations, I said hold to the same standard, which is evidently too much to ask; It doesn't make sense to condemn one version of a show, then praise another version which commits arguably equal infractions toward the source material. The pessimism surrounding Berserk 2016 reeks more and more of hypocrisy and unappeasability. |
BrockemsockemJul 14, 2016 5:29 AM
Brockemsockem said: Mezziaz said: Hunter x Hunter 2011 and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure 2012 happened (for example). While 1997 skipped some stuff about the Golden Age Arc it didn't skip and merge nearly as much as this new 2016 adaption appears to be doing, we can only hope there will be tons of flashbacks in the future. And are we wrong to expect better as time goes on? Both of which were not 100% faithful adaptations, either. Hunter x Hunter 2011, for example, rockets through tons of story content in just its first episode alone without expanding on much of any of it. This is especially evident upon viewing the first HxH series that takes several developmental episodes to get to the same plot point. I never said anything of the sort in regards to better expectations, I said hold to the same standard, which is evidently too much to ask; It doesn't make sense to condemn one version of a show, then praise another version which commits arguably equal infractions toward the source material. The pessimism surrounding Berserk 2016 reeks more and more of hypocrisy and unappeasability. It's not about being completely faithful, it's about being true to the spirit of the source, which those series definitely are. And, hell, HxH didn't outright cut out Hunter Exam, either. It spent 20 episodes on that arc, and then adapted every other arc that was already in the first anime. 75 episodes is how long that took. What Berserk 2016 has done is like what it would have been like if Madhouse had skipped right to Chimera Ant, because fuck those other arcs. They've been adapted right? I think, fundamentally, it was a bad idea to do this so soon after the GA films. My ideal adaptation is definitely the series structured how it was in the manga with maybe some changes to better tie in Black Swordsman with the other arcs. But, I can get over that it's redundant to do GA again after it's been adapted twice with one of those being recent, the Dude can not abide BS and especially the excellent Lost Children not being adapted, though. If it's because the content is too much for a TV series, then I question as to whether it was a smart decision to even do a TV series. But since there is more money and exposure in TV I even get that. I suppose the best thing would have been to keep the arcs in and cut out particularly screwed up scenes like "Adult Attack!' and put them in the BD. Kind of like what Ufotable does with the Fate/ series. As far as Berserk '97. Yes, it cut stuff out. Excellent stuff too like Skull Knight, and that is not good because the viewer is left wondering "well, how did Gut's get out of the Eclipse then?" Hell, they don't even know Casca survived. But, all that aside, it still got the story it was telling and was, imo, a great anime on it's own despite not being a very faithful adaptation. Berserk 2016 only has two episodes and also it took '97 a little while to find it's footing so I basically agree that the pitchforks have come out too soon. Animation aside and how it hurt scenes like Farnese's freakout on Guts, ep 2 seemed to hit the feel of the series a little better so we'll see how Conviction comes out. It's just I want more of a HxH 2011 or Jojo or Monster or even Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood adaptation because, yes, the first 13 eps or so were breezed through but at least the material wasn't outright skipped. I bet that's what many fans wanted, at least of material that hasn't even been adapted. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
Ston3_FreeN7 said: It's just I want more of a HxH 2011 or Jojo or Monster or even Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood adaptation because, yes, the first 13 eps or so were breezed through but at least the material wasn't outright skipped. I bet that's what many fans wanted, at least of material that hasn't even been adapted. Just wanted to say that your post above was a great one. It explains the situation perfectly. |
| Coming from a person who has not read, played games, or watched the previous series or any films on this franchise It seems average right now with its story and the animation fits the type of feeling the shows giving off. I can assume the originals are not covering this much content this quickly but it seems to be flowing decently to me at the very least. To me it seems alright so far and probably shouldn't be getting shit on as hard. Then again I do understand when something I love has an adaptation which is nothing like the original and you can't help but feel upset. So i do understand where people are coming from. |
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