| I watched just Fate/Stay Night Unlimited Blade Works. Do I have to watch Fate/Zero too? |
| Noootttttttt necessssssaaaarrrrrrilllllyyyyy. |
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| Yes, you do. Not because it will help particularly but because it's a really good show. It does also help a little with backstories. |
| No. You don't have to do anything. You could even stop watching anime and go around flying kites for fun instead. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| POST REMOVED BY USER |
NOWAAApr 15, 2:09 AM
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| I am not sure, but considering the very limited amount of runtime the movies have to cover the story, they will perhaps leave out some details that were already covered in F/Z and F/sn:UBW, instead of explaining it again. |
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| You must. It’s 100% needed. If you don’t, I fear that your head will be blown apart from Kirei’s awesomeness. Oh, and you might want to take a look at the original FSN series from 2006, just saying. |
I am the Priest of my church Yuetsu is my body, and wine is my blood I have trolled over a thousand users Unknown to sympathy, nor known to apathy Withstood Shirou to eat Mapo Tofu Yet, my question will never be answered So as I rejoice, Unlimited Kirei Works! |
| I have to say HF fits best as a sequel to fate zero. Would be pretty nice if you've seen it. |
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| it's most ideal if you wait til after HF then watch F/Z. but go ahead if you really dont wanna wait. people try to claim that HF is some "optimal sequel" to F/Z but this is not particularly true. it's just that UBW is the most detached from F/Z in terms of it's story and Fate is not receiving an adaptation from UFO. if you really wanna get technical F/Z itself is the "sequel" overall the only "requirement" for watching HF is UBW because at least half of the story relies on the information you had gained from UBW. |
Maloghurst said: Fate has some important things that come aback also. HF is kind of the adaption that ties it all up. Compared to all the 3 routes i do believe that HF is the best fitting sequel after Fate zero tho. Both character and storywise.it's most ideal if you wait til after HF then watch F/Z. but go ahead if you really dont wanna wait. people try to claim that HF is some "optimal sequel" to F/Z but this is not particularly true. it's just that UBW is the most detached from F/Z in terms of it's story and Fate is not receiving an adaptation from UFO. if you really wanna get technical F/Z itself is the "sequel" overall the only "requirement" for watching HF is UBW because at least half of the story relies on the information you had gained from UBW. |
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| Given that Heavens Feel came out first... no? |
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| Well if you don't want to wait till the movie trilogy is completed, which could take years, then sure. F/Z does contain spoilers for HF along with other routes so it is a risk. F/Z is the best Fate anime IMO and if you just look at the ratings, the vast majority agree. So you're really missing out if you don't watch it. |
-MahesvaraMar 30, 2016 1:20 AM
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| No, you should not. Fate/Zero was written later than Fate/stay night (including Heaven's Feel) and is aimed to people who already know the Heaven's Feel story. By watching Fate/Zero first you will spoil yourself a lot of Heaven's Feel. The best way is of course just to read the original Fate/stay night visual novel (2004), after which you can read/watch Fate/Zero without worrying. |
Xenocrisi said: Do I to watch Fate/Zero too? No. You could if you absolutely wanted to watch FZ right now, but you don't have to. |
| I'm confused. So in Fate/Zero there are spoilers of Heaven's Feel, right? |
| Not really. Zero would spoil HF, however at this point HF will be incomprehensible(while hopefully still looking cool) anyway, since HF kind of requires proper UBW and proper Fate and neither has been made. Prepare to be confused either way - understanding HF hinges on a lot of lore and characterization present within UBW and Fate and that is kind of missing. It would have been better if you just watched Zero and not anything else in the franchise tho, but alas. Xenocrisi said: I'm confused. So in Fate/Zero there are spoilers of Heaven's Feel, right? It spoils all three routes and is meant to be seen after all three. |
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| Fate/Zero much better than UBW imo so could watch it |
| As you see, you get infinite different replies on this topic. I'd say do what you want. Do you wanna see more Holy Grail War, more Servants, enjoy the battle scenes by Ufotable and the clash of ideals? Watch Fate/Zero. Ignore who tells you that you screwed up, listen only to what you want. If you want more entertainment, Fate/Zero will give you that. |
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| It's not really necessary but go ahead and watch it. It's one of the best things ufotable has adapted and the spoilers aren't something that will affect your enjoyment later on. Anyways don't listen to type-moon fags like fai. They make a big deal out of everything. |
| No I wouldn't say so but if you were watching Fate/Stay night then yes though I assume it is based on the Fate/stay night alternative route |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
johnyjohny said: it doesnt tie it "all" up though, you can't honestly say that heaven's feel meaningfully finishes the conflict with major players such as Saber. from a story stance it takes care of about half of the story threads that were left open in F/Z story threads that involved characters that mostly ended up taking a back seat well into the second cour.Maloghurst said: Fate has some important things that come aback also. HF is kind of the adaption that ties it all up. Compared to all the 3 routes i do believe that HF is the best fitting sequel after Fate zero tho. Both character and storywise.it's most ideal if you wait til after HF then watch F/Z. but go ahead if you really dont wanna wait. people try to claim that HF is some "optimal sequel" to F/Z but this is not particularly true. it's just that UBW is the most detached from F/Z in terms of it's story and Fate is not receiving an adaptation from UFO. if you really wanna get technical F/Z itself is the "sequel" overall the only "requirement" for watching HF is UBW because at least half of the story relies on the information you had gained from UBW. |
| If you're curious about it,then sure. It's not really gonna matter,considering it's gonna take a long as hell time for us to actually get this. |
| Have to? No. Should you? Yea, it's a good tie in to the universe. Who gives a fuck about spoilers. |
| Big Order (TV):great anime or greatest anime? |
| Thread cleaned This thread is not a VN discussion thread nor is it an UBW discussion thread. The spoilers about HF were also completely unnecessary to answer the OP's question. All off topic posts have been removed. Please refrain from going off topic further. |
sarroush said: appologies senpai.....you must have had a little PTSD flash from this thread..Thread cleaned This thread is not a VN discussion thread nor is it an UBW discussion thread. The spoilers about HF were also completely unnecessary to answer the OP's question. All off topic posts have been removed. Please refrain from going off topic further. |
| If you curious and dont have anything else to watch then watch F/Z If you dont care about the fate thingy that much just wait until HF comeout ( though it will be long) ( If you can, read the VN ) |
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| I have watched F/Z and UBW with two friends of mine who both aren't that into anime. With friend #1, I watched UBW first and Zero second. With friend #2 I watched Zero first and then UBW. I was very curious about the results, since the watching order has been an ongoing discussion for a while now. They both liked Zero way more than UBW. #2 had a harder time understanding Zero than #1 at the beginning, but that didn't really influence his enjoyability for Zero. #1 said that he wanted to rewatch UBW now after seeing Zero, because he thinks that he'll enjoy it more now that he's seen Zero. So from this I can conclude that Zero is definitely needed to fully enjoy the ufo-Fate anime. So yes, watch Zero before you watch Heaven's Feel. It's one of the best anime of all time, in my humble opinion. (I also watched Zero before watching anything else from the Fate universe, since I watched it way back when it was airing and everyone warned me to stay away from the DEEN anime. I don't regret that decision at all, since Zero S2 has been one of my favorite anime of all time after I'd finished it the first time.) Oh, and UBW (especially S2) has references to Zero (like the Ilya flashback with Iri/Grail in S2 episode 3). You'll definitely like those scenes more after having watched Zero. |
Samu-tanApr 3, 2016 9:07 AM
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Samu-tan said: I have watched F/Z and UBW with two friends of mine who both aren't that into anime. With friend #1, I watched UBW first and Zero second. With friend #2 I watched Zero first and then UBW. I was very curious about the results, since the watching order has been an ongoing discussion for a while now. They both liked Zero way more than UBW. #2 had a harder time understanding Zero than #1 at the beginning, but that didn't really influence his enjoyability for Zero. #1 said that he wanted to rewatch UBW now after seeing Zero, because he thinks that he'll enjoy it more now that he's seen Zero. So from this I can conclude that Zero is definitely needed to fully enjoy the ufo-Fate anime. So yes, watch Zero before you watch Heaven's Feel. It's one of the best anime of all time, in my humble opinion. (I also watched Zero before watching anything else from the Fate universe, since I watched it way back when it was airing and everyone warned me to stay away from the DEEN anime. I don't regret that decision at all, since Zero S2 has been one of my favorite anime of all time after I'd finished it the first time.) Oh, and UBW (especially S2) has references to Zero (like the Ilya flashback with Iri/Grail in S2 episode 3). You'll definitely like those scenes more after having watched Zero. Your test assumes that UBW is a standalone, though. Your friend #1 should have experienced the Fate route before UBW and HF after it. If he did, there's absolutely no questions for F/Z to be needed to answer. I understand that UBW and F/Z are the only shows actually released at the moment, but that doesn't really mean anything since each are faithful adaptations to their source materials, for the most part, and UBW definitly needs Fate before it and HF after it to be the actual F/SN story. Heck, it needs them for it itself to work. UBW is just one third of the story, of course he'd be confused. |
| you can watch fate in any order you want it doesn't matter. All three routes are different anyways. and the prequel doesn;t have to be watched first and it can still make sense. i had to watch the original fate first then the prequel ;c |
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| @astroprogs I am well aware of the Fate route and that UBW isn't a standalone route. However, I myself haven't read the VN either and I still immensely enjoyed Zero and UBW (in that order.) I'm assuming that OP @Xenocrisi hasn't read the VN either, so I think these "test results" would be relevant to him. |
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Samu-tan said: @astroprogs I am well aware of the Fate route and that UBW isn't a standalone route. However, I myself haven't read the VN either and I still immensely enjoyed Zero and UBW (in that order.) Sure, but you really spoiled HF for yourself this way. You'll propably still enjoy HF very much, but the impact for a LOT of reveals and twists would definitly be lost. |
| F/SN is a visual novel that consists of 3 routes in the following order of progression: Fate, UBW, and HF. Since there's no proper Fate route adaptation, the ideal thing to do is to read the first route. Then, you can either read UBW or watch it. Finally, there's HF. Each route builds up on elements presented in the previsou route, so changing the order will spoil twists of the previous routes. In the case of UBW, skipping Fate will also make it somewhat confusing at certain points and make certain things look like asspulls (because you skipped the foreshadowing done throughout Fate). On the one hand, UBW is still a very enjoyable experience even if you skip Fate, but on the other hand reading Fate first is definitely the better way to go unless you can't stand it for some reason. In the case of HF, don't get started unless you've watched or read UBW at the very least. Just don't. Otherwise it just won't work, period. F/Z may be a prequel in the sense that it takes place before F/SN. But chronology aside, it's meant to be a "sequel" to F/SN. It's very much enjoyable even if you haven't read F/SN, but it spoils a handful of things that you find out in Fate and more importantly major plot points of HF. HOWEVER... Since you have already watched UBW, you could give the visual novel a try (going straight into HF if you so wish) if you don't want to wait for the movies and then go watch F/Z aftewards. |
astroprogs said: Samu-tan said: @astroprogs I am well aware of the Fate route and that UBW isn't a standalone route. However, I myself haven't read the VN either and I still immensely enjoyed Zero and UBW (in that order.) Sure, but you really spoiled HF for yourself this way. You'll propably still enjoy HF very much, but the impact for a LOT of reveals and twists would definitly be lost. It's a sacrifice I was willing to take. :) And it was definitely worth it. |
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Samu-tan said: astroprogs said: Sure, but you really spoiled HF for yourself this way. You'll propably still enjoy HF very much, but the impact for a LOT of reveals and twists would definitly be lost. It's a sacrifice I was willing to take. :) And it was definitely worth it. It was your choice, so have fun :) And about it being worth it, i'd say say 'till you watch HF before judging that bit. |
| Start with Carnival Phantasm. |
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astroprogs said: It was your choice, so have fun :) And about it being worth it, i'd say say 'till you watch HF before judging that bit. To be fair, that's an advise that ALL of us should follow. We didn't see it yet either and have no idea how ufo will handle it at this point. |
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Grey-Zone said: To be fair, that's an advise that ALL of us should follow. We didn't see it yet either and have no idea how ufo will handle it at this point. If HF manga is anything to go by then people are better off watching Zero first. And HF manga additions are all written by Nasu like for UBW anime. I don't think ufo are dumb enough to be making HF without Zero in mind at this point. They've been rebroadcasting Zero for a whole year already so pretty much everyone who will be watching HF are already familiar with Zero. If someone wants a full experience then they can go the old way but times are changing. |
Wolfran said: Grey-Zone said: To be fair, that's an advise that ALL of us should follow. We didn't see it yet either and have no idea how ufo will handle it at this point. If HF manga is anything to go by then people are better off watching Zero first. And HF manga additions are all written by Nasu like for UBW anime. I don't think ufo are dumb enough to be making HF without Zero in mind at this point. They've been rebroadcasting Zero for a whole year already so pretty much everyone who will be watching HF are already familiar with Zero. If someone wants a full experience then they can go the old way but times are changing. HF manga expects you to have read the route. IT adds absolutely nothing for Zero-only viewers. And its on the same level of canon-status as the previous manga that fused all routes together. And people used same argument for UBW and yet UBW, while having added a lot of shitty stuff, added absolutely nothing to tie it to zero and retained it's "You do not know anything from zero yet" approach that FSN VN took. Samu-tan said: And it was definitely worth it. In all due honesty, that is not something you would know yet. You have no idea about HF, nor the full picture of the whole thing yet. A lot of people who claimed that before UBW aired ended up having fundamental misunderstandings about UBW, be it in terms of tone or in terms of message. |
AhenshihaelApr 3, 2016 6:10 PM
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Fai said: HF manga expects you to have read the route. IT adds absolutely nothing for Zero-only viewers. And its on the same level of canon-status as the previous manga that fused all routes together. Sure thing. It's written on the cover that you have to read the novel first? Or Nasu said so himself to you? Is that why they are leaving cliffhangers nearly every chapter with things like 'could this be that Shirou is dead after having his stomach blown away' even though every novel reader already knows the answer? There are so many people who have read a decade old eroge with bad writing. Face it, newcomers won't be bothering with that and one day you're going to be the one in the wrong as they would outnumber you, times are going to leave you behind. People come and go. Majority of current fanbase already came from exposure to Zero and now even more so with GO in Japan. You may say that they are just 'spin-offs' but for newcomers they have much more weight than some old eroge they never played. It's not a matter of what was 'right' in the past but what is 'right' now and what will be in the future. Fai said: And its on the same level of canon-status as the previous manga that fused all routes together. No, it's not, as it's supervised by Nasu and all of the additions are written by him unlike that manga. Or you want to say that Zero anime and ufoUbw aren't canon either? What is even canon for you? Especially in Nasuverse? 'Nasu fixed something in his writing and now the work isn't canon anymore'? |
WolfranApr 4, 2016 1:22 AM
| @astroprogs @Fai I wasn't saying it was worth it relating to the overall experience I'd get from HF. What I meant was that my memories relating to experiencing Zero are very fond, such as watching it while airing, discussing it with friends while airing, rewatching the show multiple times with friends that ended up appreciating the show as much as I do, noticing new things after every rewatch, etc). If I didn't watch Zero, I'd miss one of my best anime experiences I've had in the seven years I've been watching anime. It's too bad several things for HF got spoiled for me. However, there are still a lot of things about HF I don't know about and I am very curious about. I hardly know anything about Sakura's character and I can't wait to find out. |
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| Given than F/SN UBW was created as a pseudo-sequel to Zero, and HF movies may take years to come out, you may as well watch Zero. You read Japanese, I take it? No, it's not, as it's supervised by Nasu and all of the additions are written by him unlike that manga. Or you want to say that Zero anime and ufoUbw aren't canon either? What is even canon for you? Especially in Nasuverse? 'Nasu fixed something in his writing and now the work isn't canon anymore'? It's only canon for him if he wants it to be canon. Don't you know, Melty Blood, Case Files and Grand Order aren't canon? Fai said so. |
InsertanamehereApr 4, 2016 7:03 AM
Samu-tan said: @astroprogs @Fai I wasn't saying it was worth it relating to the overall experience I'd get from HF. What I meant was that my memories relating to experiencing Zero are very fond, such as watching it while airing, discussing it with friends while airing, rewatching the show multiple times with friends that ended up appreciating the show as much as I do, noticing new things after every rewatch, etc). If I didn't watch Zero, I'd miss one of my best anime experiences I've had in the seven years I've been watching anime. It's too bad several things for HF got spoiled for me. However, there are still a lot of things about HF I don't know about and I am very curious about. I hardly know anything about Sakura's character and I can't wait to find out. Not exactly.The anime of FZ failed hard there since that scene is supposed to show that Zouken Here is the scene from the novel None of these spoilers contain stuff about HF. |
ssjokgApr 4, 2016 4:38 AM
Insertanamehere said: Given than F/SN UBW was created as a pseudo-sequel to Zero, Another way to look at it is just Nasu retconning and adding some stuff to make Zero blend in better in the timeline. It's less about being a sequel and more about consistency IMO. Saber's look when Illya first intrduced herself makes me more inclined to believe that. I mean, aside from Iri's bit, pretty much everything else was played out exactly like in the VN. |
Samu-tan said: @astroprogs @Fai I wasn't saying it was worth it relating to the overall experience I'd get from HF. What I meant was that my memories relating to experiencing Zero are very fond, such as watching it while airing, discussing it with friends while airing, rewatching the show multiple times with friends that ended up appreciating the show as much as I do, noticing new things after every rewatch, etc). If I didn't watch Zero, I'd miss one of my best anime experiences I've had in the seven years I've been watching anime. It's too bad several things for HF got spoiled for me. However, there are still a lot of things about HF I don't know about and I am very curious about. I hardly know anything about Sakura's character and I can't wait to find out. Well, i'm glad you had that sort of entertainment with your watch order, and Fate is a big and complex enough of a world that may still manage to impress in whatever order you choose to tackle it Hope you have a good time as well when HF comes out :) |
Wolfran said: Sure thing. It's written on the cover that you have to read the novel first? Or Nasu said so himself to you? Is that why they are leaving cliffhangers nearly every chapter with things like 'could this be that Shirou is dead after having his stomach blown away' even though every novel reader already knows the answer? Its basic japanese logic. Its also why openings usually contain spoilers. Most of adaptations expect knowledge of source material. Especially quickbuck irrelevant side adaptations like hf manga. There are so many people who have read a decade old eroge with bad writing. Face it, newcomers won't be bothering with that and one day you're going to be the one in the wrong as they would outnumber you, times are going to leave you behind. And yet the "decade old" eroge was re-released in 2012 and yes they do expect you to know that. Majority of current fanbase already came from exposure to Zero and now even more so with GO in Japan. Any proof of that? Last time I checked all Zero-only viewers really brought to the table were bunch of people bitching that FSN is not edgy enough and has too many kids. Also lol at the thought of GO bringing anything to fanbase. First of all it specifically targets hardcore Nasuverse neets willing to spend thousands of dollars for waifus they already know about. Second of all the traditional mobage audience most likely would not give a shit about something as complex as nasuverse. You may say that they are just 'spin-offs' but for newcomers they have much more weight than some old eroge they never played. Yes. I know a lot of people people who were introduced to nasuverse via either Fate/Extra or Prillya. That does not change the fact that they only really become part of the franchise's fanbase if they experience FSN. Zero wise I have seen far more people regretting their decision after going through FSN. While others created wrong ideas about Nasuverse and ended up raging at FSN's MC for not being an edgelord and at FSN for not being A "grity edgy death game". Either way as I said many times before: It's not a matter of what was 'right' in the past but what is 'right' now and what will be in the future. Right and wrong does not change just because somebody did it wrong. Time and time again it has been proven that watching Zero first is absolutely the wrong way to do it and while you can still enjoy it all it still damages the whole experience. Just because a lot of people got the subpar experience does not change the correct order and does not make it a right order. So far there's absolutely NO benefit in starting with Zero. No, it's not, as it's supervised by Nasu and all of the additions are written by him unlike that manga. Or you want to say that Zero anime and ufoUbw aren't canon either? What is even canon for you? UfoUBW is absolutely not canon. Its an improper adaptation with shitload of mistakes and anime original filler material that is not part of canon. Fate/Zero is ~98% proper adaptation of a canon work. Especially in Nasuverse? 'Nasu fixed something in his writing and now the work isn't canon anymore'? He has yet to fix anything. If you mean int he way George Lucas "fixed" star wars by making prequels then yeah he sure does try. But so far not to that extent of the damage. Again we dont know how much of the "fixing" in ufoubw was what Nasu intended as most of scenes were rewritten by corporate machine and, as an example just like the ending, ended up being nothing like what Nasu wrote. He did have some utterly stupid ideas like "omg modern audiences, let's modernize by removing depth and making it flashier!", but alas, that's in character for Nasu. We will see whether Nasu can improve things or if he is truly turning into George Lucas with F/E adaptation(Not to mention with tsukihime vn remake) since he will have more direct control instead of "suggestions". Those two things will pretty much decide Type Moon's future. astroprogs said: Another way to look at it is just Nasu retconning and adding some stuff to make Zero blend in better in the timeline. It's less about being a sequel and more about consistency IMO. Saber's look when Illya first intrduced herself makes me more inclined to believe that. I mean, aside from Iri's bit, pretty much everything else was played out exactly like in the VN. There's absolutely nothing Nasu added to UFoUBW that could be viewed as "benefiting zero" or "connecting to zerO". As for Iri bit - Nasu said that it was based upon some ideas from discarded Illya route. So yeah, it has nothing to do with zero and I still hold the thought that it was absolutely wrong idea to include. Not only it fucked over the pacing of somewhat okay even if cheesy over the top fight and spoiled a perfectly emotional flashback, but it also thanks to that a lot of secondary viewers got the wrong idea about the nature of Illya's conflict thinking she was somehow "influenced" by the grail or whatever. Then again that most likely is problem with show writers and directors being incompetent morons and being unable to portray the fact that . I mean whoever wrote episodes and the director managed to completely miss the point of Winter Forest scene(and edged up everything in anime original fillers while toning down canon material for w/e reason) |
AhenshihaelApr 4, 2016 7:13 AM
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| >Its basic japanese logic. Fai talking about logic. Japanese one too. >And yet the "decade old" eroge was re-released in 2012 and yes they do expect you to know that. This isnt some quickbuck move on TM's part? >Last time I checked all Zero-only viewers really brought to the table were bunch of people bitching that FSN is not edgy enough and has too many kids. If the forums are to be believed then the existing fanbase was a minority both with FZ and FSN. >First of all it specifically targets hardcore Nasuverse neets willing to spend thousands of dollars for waifus they already know about. Vast majority of Servants are new ones that the hardcore neets dont know shit about. > Second of all the traditional mobage audience most likely would not give a shit about something as complex as nasuverse. Yes.That is why people are actually making threads and threads about each scenario >That does not change the fact that they only really become part of the franchise's fanbase if they experience FSN. Ubertopultrasuperdeliciouswonderfulkawaiikek >Zero wise I have seen far more people regretting their decision after going through FSN. While others created wrong ideas about Nasuverse and ended up raging at FSN's MC for not being an edgelord and at FSN for not being A "grity edgy death game". Has nothing to do with what each series is about.It has to do with preferences and people being stupid. >So far there's absolutely NO benefit in starting with Zero. Said random fanboy. >UfoUBW is absolutely not canon. Its an improper adaptation with shitload of mistakes and anime original filler material that is not part of canon. Nasu and TM think otherwise. >Fate/Zero is ~98% proper adaptation of a canon work. Ubertopultrakek >He has yet to fix anything. If you mean int he way George Lucas "fixed" star wars by making prequels then yeah he sure does try. But so far not to that extent of the damage.Again we dont know how much of the "fixing" in ufoubw was what Nasu intended as most of scenes were rewritten by corporate machine and, as an example just like the ending, ended up being nothing like what Nasu wrote. He did have some utterly stupid ideas like "omg modern audiences, let's modernize by removing depth and making it flashier!", but alas, that's in character for Nasu. We will see whether Nasu can improve things or if he is truly turning into George Lucas with F/E adaptation(Not to mention with tsukihime vn remake) since he will have more direct control instead of "suggestions". Those two things will pretty much decide Type Moon's future. I think I speak for everyone when I say that I prefer Nasu's silly retcons than your fanon shit. >There's absolutely nothing Nasu added to UFoUBW that could be viewed as "benefiting zero" or "connecting to zerO". All of Ilya's story. >As for Iri bit - Nasu said that it was based upon some ideas from discarded Illya route. Doesnt matter since the discarded Ilya route wasnt part of teh finalized FSN and FZ wasnt written based on that route.And somehow, now whatever Nasu said matters because you somehow think it strengthens your argument. >a lot of secondary viewers got the wrong idea Usually I encounter some people having wrong ideas....but I have seen NONE, at least I remember NONE, thinking that. >just Einzberns brainwashing her and had nothing to do with the grail itself Although Ilya IS connected to the grail.... tl;dr Uberkek |
ssjokgApr 4, 2016 7:36 AM
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