Puella Magi Madoka Magica
Jazzy_Maz said: You all seem to have the same problem with my statement, so I'm just going to deal with all of it here. I'm not saying teenage love or homosexuality are bad things. I'm talking about its marketing. I think its awfully disgusting how Urobuchi markets his show by sexualizing little girls. I've watched and enjoyed some solid romance shows, and I have zero issues with homosexuality. Aren't you trying a bit too hard? It's not like the show has pushed constant yuri sessions into your face. To me, I see a man trying to attract men to his cash cow through their genitals rather then their brains. By the same logic I could say the same about that scene in EoE, where they show |
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| @Jazzy_Maz about everything. HAhahaha lol I dont even need to make good post to point out you bullshit. First of all take a look at the 14 year old sexualized doll and tsundere and the author's self insert and their sexualiztion, the random symbolism, the repetitive "development" of that self insert that lead NOWHERE and then talk about Madoka or any other series. In Jazzy's words if he wasnt biased as fuck. Madoka, isnt the EVA of today.NGE was the Madoka of the 90s.A series that many praise the hell out of it because "it changed their way of life/thinking", clearly bs, when it wasnt smart,deep or with good character development even when it focused on one character. It as dark,edgy, had lot of gore, sexualized 14 year old girls etc. NGE changed a lot of things for the industry bu that doesnt mean it was the best masterpiece back then or now. See how easy it is to judge series your way? |
Jazzy_Maz said: You all seem to have the same problem with my statement, so I'm just going to deal with all of it here. I'm not saying teenage love or homosexuality are bad things. I'm talking about its marketing. I think its awfully disgusting how Urobuchi markets his show by sexualizing little girls. I've watched and enjoyed some solid romance shows, and I have zero issues with homosexuality. To me, I see a man trying to attract men to his cash cow through their genitals rather then their brains. kokusho36 said: You've just filled 2 paragraphs with buzzwords, the first is full of positive terms for Eva, the second is full of negative ones for Madoka. You didn't actually say anything relevant about the two shows, you just tried to validate your bias towards Eva by saying that it teaches you something and that it takes intelligence to understand, while assuming that the Madoka fanbase is full of people that only care about dark stories, gore (LOL) and lesbians (OMG LOL). I don't see how it's funny. All I did was respond to someone who challenged my beliefs. I hope you're trolling. There's no sexualization of females in Madoka. There's no lesbian love in Madoka. None. Are you criticizing the fans for shipping the characters together? Then you came to the wrong topic. |
Lollo36Oct 2, 2014 10:41 AM
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| Hitomi CARED a lot about Sayaka's feelings.That's why she approached HER first. And Sayaka didnt lost it because of that. but because she found out the truth about the soul gems.She didnt become a witch because Sayak gave up on Kamijou after she found out Hitomi loves him |
HereticPriest said: Jazzy_Maz said: You all seem to have the same problem with my statement, so I'm just going to deal with all of it here. I'm not saying teenage love or homosexuality are bad things. I'm talking about its marketing. I think its awfully disgusting how Urobuchi markets his show by sexualizing little girls. I've watched and enjoyed some solid romance shows, and I have zero issues with homosexuality. Aren't you trying a bit too hard? It's not like the show has pushed constant yuri sessions into your face. To me, I see a man trying to attract men to his cash cow through their genitals rather then their brains. By the same logic I could say the same about that scene in EoE, where they show Whether it's pushed in my face or not, it's the very fact of girls being used as objects. It's something that happens way too often in this medium. And I'm not saying I necessarily agree with what Hideaki Anno did in that opening scene, but at least it had some meaning behind it and relevance to the story. FakePriest said: @Jazzy_Maz about everything. HAhahaha lol I dont even need to make good post to point out you bullshit. First of all take a look at the 14 year old sexualized doll and tsundere and the author's self insert and their sexualiztion, the random symbolism, the repetitive "development" of that self insert that lead NOWHERE and then talk about Madoka or any other series. In Jazzy's words if he wasnt biased as fuck. Madoka, isnt the EVA of today.NGE was the Madoka of the 90s.A series that many praise the hell out of it because "it changed their way of life/thinking", clearly bs, when it wasnt smart,deep or with good character development even when it focused on one character. It as dark,edgy, had lot of gore, sexualized 14 year old girls etc. NGE changed a lot of things for the industry bu that doesnt mean it was the best masterpiece back then or now. See how easy it is to judge series your way? You can call me biased, but this thread is looking for opinions and I laid them out. If you don't like them, great! People are allowed to have differing opinions. I never said NGE is the greatest masterpiece of all time, because that's pure subjectivity. If you sincerely believe NGE is full of random symbolism, it seems a lot of the things contained within it were missed. Some research or a rewatch reveals such things. That also embodies why I don't like Madoka. Everything is on the surface. I want a writer to force me to dig for the meaning in his or her story, not be spoon fed it. I'd love to engage in further discussion, but I see no reason to if you're going to laugh at my opinions. |
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BRK25 said: Oh you mean the scene when the episode AFTER you know Sayaka liked Kyousuke he decides to throw a bitch fit for no reason? Yes, they gave a reason but they could have given a insightful view of how he felt right before this sudden burst of anger. It felt so out of place. And there, you just said it, a plot device where she liked a boy and didn't care that Sayaka was into him. To give this fairness and what not, bullshit.She was just there and had no other purpose than make Sayaka fall into darkness. BRK25 said: I know it isn't too complex. Even shown and experienced it. But there was no knowledge or idea and the sudden oh my god the two likes the same boy! Felt out of place. Maybe a small scene like Kyousuke feeling fine and Hitomi smiling at his release in a very amorous manner would have given hints instead of dropping a bomb shell. It isn't unlikely at all but I detested the issue when it comes out of nowhere, no hints or such. While you can say yeah, Sayaka likes Kyousuke, there was no background moment and she seemed desperate to be accepted by him rather than be lovers, like she's attempting to please him. The scene with Kyousuke wasn't out of place at all. Sayaka was on the fence about becoming a magical girl, and suddenly she was presented with an opportunity to both fulfill her desire to be an "ally of justice", and to make the boy she likes happy. It felt like a good turning point for her character, even though we didn't get to see the details of her relationship with Kyousuke. Because, story-wise, this scene fit perfectly and got straight to the point. This may be a bit pretentious, but even if Hitomi's sudden love may have seemed to come out of nowhere, it fit the story well: after seeing what happened to Mami when she got overconfident in her power, and knowing the consequences of Kyoko's wish, I expected something like this to happen. The fact that we got to experience Hitomi's "betrayal" at the same time as Sayaka may have made the scene even stronger, because it was unexpected and, at the same time, it felt inevitable. /pretentious mode off. Regarding Sayaka's "desperation to be accepted by him rather than be lovers ", isn't being accepted by Kyousuke exactly what you would be trying to do if you were in love with him? edit: sorry to say this, but it feels like you're looking at the events superficially, whitout putting them in context, or looking at why things played out this way, instead of just criticizing how they happened. |
Lollo36Oct 2, 2014 1:08 PM
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Jazzy_Maz said: HereticPriest said: Aren't you trying a bit too hard? It's not like the show has pushed constant yuri sessions into your face. By the same logic I could say the same about that scene in EoE, where they show Whether it's pushed in my face or not, it's the very fact of girls being used as objects. It's something that happens way too often in this medium. And I'm not saying I necessarily agree with what Hideaki Anno did in that opening scene, but at least it had some meaning behind it and relevance to the story. FakePriest said: @Jazzy_Maz about everything. HAhahaha lol I dont even need to make good post to point out you bullshit. First of all take a look at the 14 year old sexualized doll and tsundere and the author's self insert and their sexualiztion, the random symbolism, the repetitive "development" of that self insert that lead NOWHERE and then talk about Madoka or any other series. In Jazzy's words if he wasnt biased as fuck. Madoka, isnt the EVA of today.NGE was the Madoka of the 90s.A series that many praise the hell out of it because "it changed their way of life/thinking", clearly bs, when it wasnt smart,deep or with good character development even when it focused on one character. It as dark,edgy, had lot of gore, sexualized 14 year old girls etc. NGE changed a lot of things for the industry bu that doesnt mean it was the best masterpiece back then or now. See how easy it is to judge series your way? You can call me biased, but this thread is looking for opinions and I laid them out. If you don't like them, great! People are allowed to have differing opinions. I never said NGE is the greatest masterpiece of all time, because that's pure subjectivity. If you sincerely believe NGE is full of random symbolism, it seems a lot of the things contained within it were missed. Some research or a rewatch reveals such things. That also embodies why I don't like Madoka. Everything is on the surface. I want a writer to force me to dig for the meaning in his or her story, not be spoon fed it. I'd love to engage in further discussion, but I see no reason to if you're going to laugh at my opinions. I laugh at your opinions just like you laugh at the fanbase and the writer when NGE is a worse offender than Madoka. |
Jazzy_Maz said: You can call me biased, but this thread is looking for opinions and I laid them out. If you don't like them, great! People are allowed to have differing opinions. I never said NGE is the greatest masterpiece of all time, because that's pure subjectivity. If you sincerely believe NGE is full of random symbolism, it seems a lot of the things contained within it were missed. Some research or a rewatch reveals such things. That also embodies why I don't like Madoka. Everything is on the surface. I want a writer to force me to dig for the meaning in his or her story, not be spoon fed it. I'd love to engage in further discussion, but I see no reason to if you're going to laugh at my opinions. Do you think depth = not understanding things and having to rewatch the show? Do you think simple = bad? Did you go into Madoka Magica expecting Evangelion? |
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FakePriest said: I laugh at your opinions just like you laugh at the fanbase and the writer when NGE is a worse offender than Madoka. I'd accept that as a valid answer if I was actually laughing at the Urobuchi and Madoka's fanbase. However, I am not laughing at them. kokusho36 said: Do you think depth = not understanding things and having to rewatch the show? Do you think simple = bad? Did you go into Madoka Magica expecting Evangelion? To your first point, you're misunderstanding what I said. But this person missed a lot of points in Evangelion, and a rewatch of Evangelion is one of the best ways to grasp it better. Second, simplicity is all in execution. Intellectual depth doesn't make a story for me. Can it help? Yes, that's why I love animes like Monster, Ghost in the Shell, and Evangelion. It's plot and character development and uniqueness that make a show for me. Madoka, to me, doesn't deliver that to the extent people made it out to be. Third, I watched Madoka before I watched Evangelion. Evangelion was rather instrumental in forming my current opinion of Madoka. |
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| With what you think about them you are basically laughing at them. I didnt miss anything.You on the other hand forgot all the pandering Eva had and made Madoka seem like a fat otaku's wet dream. Madoka delivers what it tries to do deliver very well. Another,(since it isnt new) different take on the mahou shoujo genre. It amazes me that people find char development in a show that ignores every char except the MC and makes that MC go in circles with his "char development".What a great execution.So intellectual. So a pandering pseudo intellectual series formed your opinion about a show with far less pandering and a clear plot. Eva is truly amazing. |
FakePriest said: With what you think about them you are basically laughing at them. I didnt miss anything.You on the other hand forgot all the pandering Eva had and made Madoka seem like a fat otaku's wet dream. Madoka delivers what it tries to do deliver very well. Another,(since it isnt new) different take on the mahou shoujo genre. It amazes me that people find char development in a show that ignores every char except the MC and makes that MC go in circles with his "char development".What a great execution.So intellectual. So a pandering pseudo intellectual series formed your opinion about a show with far less pandering and a clear plot. Eva is truly amazing. Congratulations! You have an opinion.  |
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| I'd say vocal minority. The larger the show, the more people that won't like it. Happens with everything. In one sense I would say that people who didn't expect anything or didn't get it spoilered in ANY way probably enjoyed it more. That's why I hate when people say "watch Madoka because you won't expect what's coming". Regardless of whether you like it or not, you cannot deny the impact it has had on the genre and on the industry. |
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Jazzy_Maz said: Thank you.FakePriest said: With what you think about them you are basically laughing at them. I didnt miss anything.You on the other hand forgot all the pandering Eva had and made Madoka seem like a fat otaku's wet dream. Madoka delivers what it tries to do deliver very well. Another,(since it isnt new) different take on the mahou shoujo genre. It amazes me that people find char development in a show that ignores every char except the MC and makes that MC go in circles with his "char development".What a great execution.So intellectual. So a pandering pseudo intellectual series formed your opinion about a show with far less pandering and a clear plot. Eva is truly amazing. Congratulations! You have an opinion. You see, unlike you I can support it without bias. |
BRK25 said: Look, this show might have an idea but I didn't like where all these pieces feel into place when it was suddenly NEEDED to happen. It could have been far better in my eyes if they chosen to introduce him or mention him in the first episode. Nope, came when Sayaka needed a wish or information on their background. But they did mention him in the first episode. They went to the music store so that Sayaka could buy a CD for him. Madoka: For Kamijo? Sayaka [coyly]: Maybe! That already establishes Kamijou's existence and his association with music, and hints at Sayaka's feelings for him. Then, in episode 2, when Sayaka is wondering why she and Madoka have been chosen by Kyubey when there are so many people in greater need, we get a glimpse of Kyouske in his hospital room, establishing him further as someone who might be in need. All this is already in place by the time we actually meet him at the beginning of epsisode 3, which is a scene devoted to establishing his rel'p with Sayaka and expanding on her feelings for him (her blush at sharing headphones, her flashback to a younger self watching him in awe), and hinting subtly at the nature of his problem, by his turning away, and Sayaka's looking at his arm. All this was established carefully in advance, not just brought in when a wish was conveniently required. |
| "Burn this sight into your minds. This is what it means to be a magical girl." |
BRK25 said: I despise the director's execution of the action. They didn't give the viewer attention to detail as much as others and decided far more effort to get the wham scenes going than anything. I could just phrase it differently by saying that the director cut out all unnecessary elements and decided to focus on the important parts. BRK25 said: Really? He came out of nowhere and was suddenly thrusted into the story conveniently and she already brought him up before. Look, this show might have an idea but I didn't like where all these pieces feel into place when it was suddenly NEEDED to happen. It could have been far better in my eyes if they chosen to introduce him or mention him in the first episode. Nope, came when Sayaka needed a wish or information on their background. Steepholm already commented on the fact that he didn't come out of nowhere. He was thrusted into the story conveniently? What does this even mean? His existence was already established, and he played the part he needed to play in Sayaka's story. The scene fit into the narrative, it was powerful, and it was necessary. BRK25 said: And no, I thought they were friends and she was trying to make him feel so much better cause I didn't feel any love coming from a bunch of fourteen year old girls and choosing who they want. What did you expect her to do to show her love? She visited him often, she bought him CDs, she used her one and only wish to heal him!!!! She was desperate when Hitomi stole him from her! Seriously, the fact that you didn't feel any love coming from Sayaka is 100% your fault. BRK25 said: If anything you are reinforcing that these things twist and shape nicely when it is NEEDED rather than FALL into place. I expected everything to occur because the show was very predictable outside of Mami's death scene and the time loop which wasn't even that grand of a shock. Like really, we have a character who isn't a magical girl and seemed worthless as a friend but LOOKIE OVER HERE! She's in fact comes into the story ONLY to be a plot device to screw Sayaka over. And she cease to come back into the show except for one scene. I already explained how the scenes do not only twist and shape nicely when it is NEEDED, but they also FALL INTO PLACE in the overall context of the story and in the characters' (in this case, Sayaka's) development. You expected everything to occour, and that's the mark of a good tragedy. The story just needs to present the events in unpredictable manners (like Hitomi's confession) to keep you engaged. What's bad about a scene that is not only shocking, but it's also in line with the themes of the story, and it feels somewhat inevitable, if not predictable? Hitomi fulfilled her role well. There was nothing else she should have done in the story. She was a good plot device. What's there to criticize? BRK25 said: I just couldn't get into it and gave it a seven in enjoyment. Maybe even a six in enjoyment. But in terms of a critical analysis, I'd give it a 8.5. But as a person, I did not enjoy this show but I can recognize how OTHERS might like it. I'm not soulless. Well, I can't prevent you from not enjoying Madoka as much as me, but I'm trying to convey why your reasons don't feel legitimate. |
Lollo36Oct 3, 2014 7:53 AM
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FakePriest said: Thank you. You see, unlike you I can support it without bias. Well if you really want to handle this like that... 1) It seems you can't accept that with over 7 billion people on this planet, not everyone will agree with your opinion. 2) On your profile, you say looking at things with objectivity (which is without bias) is pretentious. So I guess that makes you the pretentious one here? 3) Your statement turns back on you with how you've addressed Evangelion. |
TheRipperManOct 3, 2014 9:16 AM
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Omniknight said: Regardless of whether you like it or not, you cannot deny the impact it has had on the genre and on the industry. What impact? |
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Jazzy_Maz said: FakePriest said: Thank you. You see, unlike you I can support it without bias. Well if you really want to handle this like that... 1) It seems you can't accept that with over 7 billion people on this planet, not everyone will agree with your opinion. 2) On your profile, you say looking at things with objectivity (which is without bias) is pretentious. So I guess that makes you the pretentious one here? 3) Your statement turns back on you with how you've addressed Evangelion. I have 0 bias, I can assure you, when it comes to the pandering of Madoka and EVA.You on the other hand are fully biased. If you want to have an opinion then dont try to make it a fact like you did.Calling entire posts of bullshiting opinions, when you obviously try to present it as truth, because someone point out that bs, doesnt make your opinion immune to criticism. That you have opinions doesnt mean others will silently let you say whatever you want. |
FakePriest said: I have 0 bias, I can assure you, when it comes to the pandering of Madoka and EVA.You on the other hand are fully biased. If you want to have an opinion then dont try to make it a fact like you did.Calling entire posts of bullshiting opinions, when you obviously try to present it as truth, because someone point out that bs, doesnt make your opinion immune to criticism. That you have opinions doesnt mean others will silently let you say whatever you want. You really can't accept that other people have other opinions, can you? I didn't present my opinions as fact or anything, I just stood by what I believe in. Seems to me that you just don't like the way I think. |
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tsudecimo said: Omniknight said: Regardless of whether you like it or not, you cannot deny the impact it has had on the genre and on the industry. What impact? I hate it when fans describe Madoka as a super-dark incredibly deep decostruction of the magical girl genre that changed every anime after it and influenced japanese culture forever. Then we get people that finish it, give it an 8/10 and come to the forums saying that it was not the best thing they ever saw, and that they were disappointed. |
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kokusho36 said: tsudecimo said: What impact? I hate it when fans describe Madoka as a super-dark incredibly deep decostruction of the magical girl genre that changed every anime after it and influenced japanese culture forever. Then we get people that finish it, give it an 8/10 and come to the forums saying that it was not the best thing they ever saw, and that they were disappointed. Madoka is not the first to do that anyway, just the most popular one. The word deconstruction is usually used wrong from what I gather. It was very successful commercially, but I don't really see how it had an impact at anything. |
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| sayakas and kyokos stories were the highlights of the show, if it had just been about homura and how she wanted to 'save her only friend' then I wouldve scored lower. Mami was an insignificant character and madoka herself was nothing special as an MC The madoka magica fanbase is full of awful weeaboos though for trying to make it about lesbians |
RLinksoul said: tsudecimo said: It was very successful commercially, but I don't really see how it had an impact at anything. Particularly the genre itself. Most people who say that Madoka changed the face of the genre either never watched anything except a few Sailor Moon episodes, or are unaware that other shows such as Princess Tutu already did the whole "deconstruction" darker themes thing. It's just not as famous because it didn't use the false advertising shock value approach, and isn't targeted toward the otaku audience. Princess Tutu isn't a genre deconstruction.You could say it's an deconstruction of fairy tales or stories in general. |
watd said: HereticPriest said: |
| "Burn this sight into your minds. This is what it means to be a magical girl." |
| I was debating with myself, if I should add fuel to this flamewar, but if you want to debete with someone who have IMO, unjustified hate for this show, then try to speak with Born2Run - first comment under this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YByj8YgVLYw He is supposedly an author of hateful review of "Madoka" which was published on this site and he was spamming comments on youtube for a long time. But get ready that he will ignore you comments, if you will have some sensible rebuttal to his points, and that he will, mostly repeat those same points that he already made, even if they were refuted and that he will most likely make claims withoutsupporting evidence. He already don't want to debate with me. I consider him to be one of the most intellectually dishonest debaters I ever have conversation with, but you are free to agree with him or disagree with him all you like. |
Tachikoma1701Oct 7, 2014 12:17 AM
| It has fancy visual effects, forced drama and stereotypical characters, and people praise it for that. |
Tachikoma1701 said: I was debating with myself, if I should add fuel to this flamewar, but if you want to debete with someone who have IMO, unjustified hate for this show, then try to speak with Born2Run - first comment under this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YByj8YgVLYw He is supposedly an author of hateful review of "Madoka" which was published on this site and he was spamming comments on youtube for a long time. But get ready that he will ignore you comments, if you will have some sensible rebuttal to his points, and that he will, mostly repeat those same points that he already made, even if they were refuted and that he will most likely make claims withoutsupporting evidence. He already don't want to debate with me. I consider him to be one of the most intellectually dishonest debaters I even have conversation with, but you are free to agree with him or disagree with him all you like. The guy is a troll,you should just ignore him. |
Guriffisu said: forced drama and stereotypical characters, and people praise it for that. Buzzwords. |
| I don't hate it, the music is great (based Y.K.), the visuals are nice and it is well directed. It just relies too much on plot twists and wham episodes so it wasn't nearly as good the 2nd or 3rd time around. Not horrible, but not a must-watch either. |
Tachikoma1701 said: Why would anyone want to talk to him then, if all of that is true? .__.I was debating with myself, if I should add fuel to this flamewar, but if you want to debete with someone who have IMO, unjustified hate for this show, then try to speak with Born2Run - first comment under this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YByj8YgVLYw He is supposedly an author of hateful review of "Madoka" which was published on this site and he was spamming comments on youtube for a long time. But get ready that he will ignore you comments, if you will have some sensible rebuttal to his points, and that he will, mostly repeat those same points that he already made, even if they were refuted and that he will most likely make claims withoutsupporting evidence. He already don't want to debate with me. I consider him to be one of the most intellectually dishonest debaters I ever have conversation with, but you are free to agree with him or disagree with him all you like. Kaimon said: Huh..It just relies too much on plot twists and wham episodes so it wasn't nearly as good the 2nd or 3rd time around. It was the opposite for me. I liked it more after the second and third watch. |
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BotatoPriest said: Why would anyone want to talk to him then, if all of that is true? .__.[/quote]. What is true? What he said or what his opponents said? And why people wanted to speak to him? I don't knew, maybe some people had vain hope for constructive conversations? |
Tachikoma1701 said: What is true? What he said or what his opponents said? And why people wanted to speak to him? I don't knew, maybe some people had vain hope for constructive conversations? Tachikoma1701 said: I was debating with myself, if I should add fuel to this flamewar, but if you want to debete with someone who have IMO, unjustified hate for this show, then try to speak with Born2Run - first comment under this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YByj8YgVLYw He is supposedly an author of hateful review of "Madoka" which was published on this site and he was spamming comments on youtube for a long time. But get ready that he will ignore you comments, if you will have some sensible rebuttal to his points, and that he will, mostly repeat those same points that he already made, even if they were refuted and that he will most likely make claims withoutsupporting evidence. He already don't want to debate with me. I consider him to be one of the most intellectually dishonest debaters I ever have conversation with, but you are free to agree with him or disagree with him all you like. |
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| OK, I now get what you mean :) |
| That Tatsuya and Miyuki didn't get more intimate with each other. :( Plz gif more |
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EcchiHunter said: This isn't Mahouka.That Tatsuya and Miyuki didn't get more intimate with each other. :( Plz gif more |
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minzara said: I tried to like this show, I made it to episode 3 with the big "oh crap moment". It just didn't do anything for me. I was so annoyed by that moment with the whole magical girl thing and too much cutesy crap that I wasn't sad. I was surprised, shocked a little. However, not sad. I went into the next episode and made it about 13 minutes in before I just stopped, I wasn't sad at all. These little girls our pouring there hearts out and I just don't care. This is coming from a guy who can easily get sad and cry at things, Ive never watched a anime before where the sad moment comes up and I just didn't care, at all. There is a way to do the cutesy tragic thing right, look at FMA, they did it with the dog and the girl. The only time in media where I HAD to look away from the screen. I couldn't watch it, it was so tragic. That is what this show was trying to do, done right. If you don't care about the characters, it doesn't matter how much death and crying you throw at someone, they ain't going to care Sad because I love Gen Urobuchi, Fate Zero is a fav of mine, and Psycho-Pass is looking amazing, but this is not one of his best. Sorry, this is a dropped show for me, I gave it a 5 for trying something different but in the end just not for me. Please, don't judge shows that you haven't finished, or at least don't rate them. Regarding your reaction at the Mami scene, you didn't really explain your opinion, so I don't know what to say. Also, you're not the first one to do it in this thread, but those comparisons with other anime are unneeded and don't make sense, since the scene from FMA you brought up is arguably worse than the twist in Madoka: (Spoilers for FMA and Madoka) |
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| I was talking about FMA (2003), and Nina is featured in 2 episodes, but most of the screen time is focused on Ed and Al's research. Also, I doubt many people cried at the Mami scene, since it was sudden and shocking, but not really sad. That was not my point. I was just pointing out how the scene you brought up from FMA was just as flawed as Madoka's, if not more. You seem to be another victim of the hype: many fans claim that Madoka is the ultimate deconstruction of the magical girl genre, that changes everything and is super dark. I'm convinced that without those misleading recommendations, a lot of people would have enjoyed the series much more. Others would say that you stopped watching just when Madoka gets good (or rather, when it gets dark and serious and crap like that). I think it was good from the beginning, mostly because I went into it without any expectations or hype. Perhaps you should just set this series aside for a year or so, and then try again with the right mindset. |
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| I don't hate this show. I just think it's overrated. It's above average writing for sure, but I would not call it exceptional. The fandom is a bit annoying because while their logic is usually consistent in their defense of the show, I tend to disagree with a lot of the premises that their arguments are based on. Some examples I've seen just on MAL: "it's a deconstruction therefore it's intelligent" - lolno. there is nothing even remotely of intellectual value in the deconstruction of the magical girl genre. anyone with half a brain and five minutes of spare time could easily deduce that real-life logic applied to magical girls and their situations would generally result in despair and disaster. the point of the magical girl genre is to provide cheery and lighthearted entertainment, and the genre itself for the most part doesn't even contain any potentially offensive or controversial cliches or tropes like some other anime genres do, thereby eliminating any opportunity for pointed, socially relevant satire. what is the value in critiquing such a genre? deconstructing it is like critically analyzing and panning Blue's Clues. it's a ridiculous and pretentious exercise in self-ascribed intellectualism. "the characters are great because they all have identifiable and relatable traits"- nah, a good character is more than the sum of their character traits. this is also why the Plinkett test is bullshit. not that PMMM's characters are bad - they're not - but I wouldn't call them superb characters by any stretch, either. "the ideas presented in the show are deep" - i agree with this to an extent, but i disagree that the presentation and exploration of these themes was very thorough - e.g. kyuubey's grey morality, sayaka's self-sacrifice, and the very faustian essence of the show were all things that i felt could've been explored in more depth. of course this is somewhat mitigated by the short episode count. In summary I think Madoka is a decent anime with many good qualities, but also many overstated or just plain bad ones (character development was not this show's strong suit, contrary to popular opinion). I don't hate Madoka at all; I don't even hate its fanbase. Monogatari and Evangelion have far more obnoxious fanbases, and I actually like both of those shows significantly more than I do Madoka. I think you may be exaggerating the hate this series gets, to be honest, because its "haters" are absolutely miniscule in number compared to those of the aforementioned series as well as several others. |
PonPonPon said: "it's a deconstruction therefore it's intelligent" - lolno. there is nothing even remotely of intellectual value in the deconstruction of the magical girl genre. anyone with half a brain and five minutes of spare time could easily deduce that real-life logic applied to magical girls and their situations would generally result in despair and disaster. the point of the magical girl genre is to provide cheery and lighthearted entertainment, and the genre itself for the most part doesn't even contain any potentially offensive or controversial cliches or tropes like some other anime genres do, thereby eliminating any opportunity for pointed, socially relevant satire. what is the value in critiquing such a genre? deconstructing it is like critically analyzing and panning Blue's Clues. it's a ridiculous and pretentious exercise in self-ascribed intellectualism. 1) Just by reading this topic you would have realized that the majority of Madoka fans don't care about it being a deconstruction or not. 2) The point of the magical girl genre isn't decided by you. Madoka haters are always eager to give lists of other mahou shoujo anime with dark themes and other elements that are more than worthy of critique (Sailor Moon, Utena, Nanoha, Full Moon, Princess Tutu...). 3) It took me a quarter of my brain and 5 seconds to think of a potentially controversial topic in magical girl anime, which can easily be the starting point of satire/critique/whatever you want: the trasformation sequence (see Kill la Kill for reference). |
Lollo36Oct 20, 2014 2:51 PM
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kokusho36 said: 1) Just by reading this topic you would have realized that the majority of Madoka fans don't care about it being a deconstruction or not. oh, damn, sorry for actually having a life and not bothering to read through 14 pages of discussion to glean what you wrongly seem to think is the consensus opinion on this anime of its fans. nice attempt at No True Scotsman, but I assure you that there exists a very large contingent of PMMM fans who believe that the anime's intellectual merit stems from the fact that it is a deconstruction. kokusho36 said: 2) The point of the magical girl genre isn't decided by you. Madoka haters are always eager to give lists of other mahou shoujo anime with dark themes and other elements that are more than worthy of critique (Sailor Moon, Utena, Nanoha, Full Moon, Princess Tutu...). >"Madoka haters" PonPonPon said: I don't hate Madoka at all; I don't even hate its fanbase. I also did not give a single other example of a magical girl deconstruction that was "more worthy of critique" although I do happen to think that utena is far more intelligent than madoka is (also utena isn't really magical girl but whatever). but again, that's neither here nor there. also, you will never catch me using "dark themes" as an argument for anything ever. themes don't have to be dark to be interesting (or maybe the qualifier "dark" is thrown around way too often to begin with). kokusho36 said: 3) It took me a quarter of my brain and 5 seconds to think of a potentially controversial topic in magical girl anime, which can easily be the starting point of satire/critique/whatever you want: the trasformation sequence (see Kill la Kill for reference). it's obvious that you used very little of your brain, considering that 1) KlK is not a mahou shoujo (if anything it just parodies the genre's tropes, and rofl that you even used that as an example), 2) transformation sequences are really not that controversial in general, and 3) even if it was, what intelligent satire would it give rise to? fanservice critique? gender role critique? you could make a mountain out of a molehill here but pretty much every avenue for serious satire would require a stretch of the imagination because at the end of the day we are talking about a 10-second animation sequence that's generally applied to little girls/boys to begin with. like the most you could come up with is sexualization of children and even that is a huge stretch. maybe I worded my summary of the genre wrong, but the point is that there are very few truly controversial tropes or narrative tendencies within the genre that open it up to any kind of intelligent satire. if the best you could come up with is the transformation sequence, then that pretty much says it all. also note that i never used any of this against madoka. i didn't think i needed to explicitly state this but it being a deconstruction of an anime genre has no bearing on its quality, for better or worse. my point was that it doesn't make madoka bad or good. it doesn't do anything except give the show a vehicle for its narrative. |
PonPonPon said: kokusho36 said: 2) The point of the magical girl genre isn't decided by you. Madoka haters are always eager to give lists of other mahou shoujo anime with dark themes and other elements that are more than worthy of critique (Sailor Moon, Utena, Nanoha, Full Moon, Princess Tutu...). >"Madoka haters" PonPonPon said: I don't hate Madoka at all; I don't even hate its fanbase. I also did not give a single other example of a magical girl deconstruction that was "more worthy of critique" although I do happen to think that utena is far more intelligent than madoka is (also utena isn't really magical girl but whatever). but again, that's neither here nor there. also, you will never catch me using "dark themes" as an argument for anything ever. themes don't have to be dark to be interesting (or maybe the qualifier "dark" is thrown around way too often to begin with). What are you talking about? I was using the Madoka haters' arguments as an example against your preconcieved notions about magical girl anime being just cheery and lighthearted entertainment. I wasn't saying you were a hater. kokusho36 said: 3) It took me a quarter of my brain and 5 seconds to think of a potentially controversial topic in magical girl anime, which can easily be the starting point of satire/critique/whatever you want: the trasformation sequence (see Kill la Kill for reference). it's obvious that you used very little of your brain, considering that 1) KlK is not a mahou shoujo (if anything it just parodies the genre's tropes, and rofl that you even used that as an example), 2) transformation sequences are really not that controversial in general, and 3) even if it was, what intelligent satire would it give rise to? fanservice critique? gender role critique? you could make a mountain out of a molehill here but pretty much every avenue for serious satire would require a stretch of the imagination because at the end of the day we are talking about a 10-second animation sequence that's generally applied to little girls/boys to begin with. like the most you could come up with is sexualization of children and even that is a huge stretch. maybe I worded my summary of the genre wrong, but the point is that there are very few truly controversial tropes or narrative tendencies within the genre that open it up to any kind of intelligent satire. if the best you could come up with is the transformation sequence, then that pretty much says it all. also note that i never used any of this against madoka. i didn't think i needed to explicitly state this but it being a deconstruction of an anime genre has no bearing on its quality, for better or worse. my point was that it doesn't make madoka bad or good. it doesn't do anything except give the show a vehicle for its narrative. Kill la Kill is a magical girl anime, where the main heroine gets superpowers to seek justice and fight evil. Utena is also a magical girl anime, where the heroine gets "the power to revolutionize the world" and protects those in need (such as Anthy and her other friend). You laughing at my arguments doesn't make them weaker: Kill la Kill does subvert the "transformation sequence" trope, by making the main character aware of her skimpy new outfit, then it comments on it, through Satsuki's speech in Ep 3, and uses it as a starting point for Ryuuko's character development, by progressively making her more confident in herself despite of her outward appearance. Then there's the fact that Senketsu draws strength from Ryuuko's blood (symbolizing menstruation), and a million other things that relate to female empowerment and comment on consumerism, importance of looks, fanservice in anime and so on. All of those come just from the transformation sequence. Utena also adds a weird sexual side to some transformations, making them a bit uncomfortable to look at (but hell if I know what they mean) and continuously replays them at full length (again, don't ask me why). Not to mention how both Utena and Madoka are mostly based on subverting the tropes of defending justice (Anthy doesn't even care about being abused, while Sayaka, a righteous knight, gets what she deserves), believing in miracles (Jury's story, Homura's wish), the power of friendship (Mami's death, Saionji and Touga's story, Anthy's nature). I can go on and on about the use of magic in Madoka (it's just a fake system utilized by the Incubators to draw energy from humans, and also subverts the "power of emotions" trope by using said power to literally produce energy), or the nature of magical wishes and their consequences, which can be a metaphore for saying that the easy way is never the right way. I'm a shallow viewer, and I've watched a grand total of 3 magical girl anime (I haven't even finished Utena), but I can still point out a lot of interesting tropes and ideas that can easily be subverted and expanded upon. If you still want to say that there is no value in critiquing the genre, go ahead. |
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