| I have a headache at the moment,I'm afraid that my head might just explode if I carefully read this and try to understand so I'll just leave this post here so I can edit it sometime in the future when the risk of death is smaller. |
NoSurrender1690 said: what there is very litte missspiing in it you're funny |
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NoSurrender1690 said: ona said: NoSurrender1690 said: what there is very litte missspiing in it you're funny haha shut up want real input So what are we supposed to say? |
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NoSurrender1690 to English translator said: Don't fans or so-called otaku know the difference between these two things? I and a few other users on this site get annoyed when people call demographics a genre. I think this comes from many places. First and foremost, the utter [?] of most anime sites, I believe (since MAL and the one I mod for are the only ones I use) (fix your stupid genre tags here too) who refuse to see the fact that demographics are not genre. 1)A genre is a thematic element of the story / narrative. anyone with braincells in their head knows this, but my issue is that almost 100% of people are too foolish to see this. 2)A genre could also be a type of object, living or dead, in a narrative, like a kaiju or a robot or a zombie (for example) 3)A demographic is a set of people based on sex or age range etc that a product would be marketed toward, ie not a narrative need. I think people conflate genre with demographics because certain genres are almost always marketed to a certain demographic. Like, there's not a lot of action-oriented josei, is there? And when the story is a school setting romantic comedy with a female protagonist and lots of cute guys the word shoujo usually comes to mind. |
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NoSurrender1690 translated by Lupadim said: Are anime fans, or so called Otakus, not Supposed to know the difference between these two things? Me and a few people on this website are getting annoyed by people that say demographics is a genre. As many of you may know, the new opening of One Piece (this one) is awesome. Definitely the best of 2014. Magi is also awesome. Bye! Sorry, couldn't get past the first paragraph |
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lupadim said: NoSurrender1690 translated by Lupadim said: Are anime fans, or so called Otakus, not Supposed to know the difference between these two things? Me and a few people on this website are getting annoyed by people that say demographics is a genre. As many of you may know, the new opening of One Piece (this one) is awesome. Definitely the best of 2014. Magi is also awesome. Bye! Sorry, couldn't get past the first paragraph ona was kind enough to translate it for us. |
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| Here's the thing. When people say "I'm going to the can" they mean the toilet and not an actual can. When people say "I hate shounen tropes and fillers" they don't mean Death Note they mean Naruto and Bleach. Instead of writing a post that needs a translation people use words in their posts that are relevant and easy to understand and type when they are conversing with someone. Demographics like Shoujo, Shounen and Seinen have certain imagery and titles attached to them which make it an easy reference point. |
| I used to get annoyed when people called shounen a genre but time has passed and I've just gotten used to the fact many people will always refer to it as a genre and not a demographic. |
Miketyson555 said: Shounen is a genreI used to get annoyed when people called shounen a genre but time has passed and I've just gotten used to the fact many people will always refer to it as a genre and not a demographic. |
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lupadim said: Miketyson555 said: Shounen is a genreI used to get annoyed when people called shounen a genre but time has passed and I've just gotten used to the fact many people will always refer to it as a genre and not a demographic. technically it is a demographic |
| Just because you know how to use a torrent does not give you the god given right to pirate. My actual list: https://kitsu.io/users/mattbenz99/library check out my youtube channel for my review: https://www.youtube.com/user/mattbenz99 |
| Cool Story Bro |
| Sure they're different things, but why the hell should I care if other people misuse it? It's none of my business. As for the tags system, there's no point having a separate system for demographics and genres. If they replaced the word "genres" with "tags", then there would be no issue anyway. |
| If you generalize, you're wrong. |
NoSurrender1690 said: so one is to accept people in fact being factally wrong these days oh some people Yes, you should accept it, because 1) it doesn't matter 2) you can't change it 3) if you don't, you're soon gonna have a nervous breakdown. |
| If you generalize, you're wrong. |
| Who the hell cares really. If a guy likes Naruto and asks in the recommendations scetion for a next shonen anime to watch it's obvious he would most likely get recommendations like Bleach, One Piece, Fairy Tail,Hunter x Hunter etc. not anime like K'on, Azumanga Daioh and stuff like that. |
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| Substance of the thread aside I thought that this is one of his more coherent/readable thread.. Anyways, here comes the my opinion on this matter. I feel like in manga and anime specifically demographics labels double as genre also. I am most familiar with shounen, so I'll use it as an example. Naruto is labelled as action, comedy, martial arts, superpower (and shounen). The shounen label in the genre implies that it is a battle shounen ==> nakama power, justice beat all etc themes found throughout the work. Therefore, "shounen" is also a tag because it describes the thematic element of the story. In Kimi no Iru Machi, for example, the "shounen" tag implies a pseudo-harem around the MC, as with every romance-shounen, as far as I know. So yes, of course labels like shounen, shoujo are demographics labels first and foremost. However, they double as genre label in that common themes (almost universal themes) are found in these demographics. There are exceptions of course. In that case, I think MAL did well to not tag those with demographics genre tags. |
| My Reviews and Rants: http://bunny1ov3r.wordpress.com/ 痛就是爱 |
miereneronaile said: Who cares if they are using the wrong word? You already know what they are talking about.DrGeroCreation said: Who the hell cares really. If a guy likes Naruto and asks in the recommendations forum for a next shonen anime to watch it's obvious he would most likely get recommendations like Bleach, One Piece, Fairy Tail,Hunter x Hunter etc. not anime like K'on, Azumanga Daioh and stuff like that. The thing is, they are using the word wrong. Its kind of like a lesser version of the way the op talks. We can normally figure out what he means, but it would still be 100 times better if he was perfect at using English. |
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miereneronaile said: That is not a good analogy at all.DrGeroCreation said: miereneronaile said: Who cares if they are using the wrong word? You already know what they are talking about.DrGeroCreation said: Who the hell cares really. If a guy likes Naruto and asks in the recommendations forum for a next shonen anime to watch it's obvious he would most likely get recommendations like Bleach, One Piece, Fairy Tail,Hunter x Hunter etc. not anime like K'on, Azumanga Daioh and stuff like that. The thing is, they are using the word wrong. Its kind of like a lesser version of the way the op talks. We can normally figure out what he means, but it would still be 100 times better if he was perfect at using English. I trust, then, that you will never, ever EVER complain, or even be annoyed inside your head, at someone who rights tewwible engwish 4 no aparent reson ya? I mean, its understandable so it MUST be ok? |
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NoSurrender1690 said: That actually does happen for movies sometimes. Many people usually associate G rated movies with Disney animated adventure movies and rated R is usually associated with crime drama movies such as The Godfather, Scarface etc.DrGeroCreation said: miereneronaile said: Who cares if they are using the wrong word? You already know what they are talking about.DrGeroCreation said: Who the hell cares really. If a guy likes Naruto and asks in the recommendations forum for a next shonen anime to watch it's obvious he would most likely get recommendations like Bleach, One Piece, Fairy Tail,Hunter x Hunter etc. not anime like K'on, Azumanga Daioh and stuff like that. The thing is, they are using the word wrong. Its kind of like a lesser version of the way the op talks. We can normally figure out what he means, but it would still be 100 times better if he was perfect at using English. im sorry but use that system of useing demos as genres for movies yes time you see one |
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NoSurrender1690 said: The main demographic for Disney animated movies are children and the main demographic for violent crime drama movies are adults (18 and over)DrGeroCreation said: NoSurrender1690 said: That actually does happen for movies sometimes. Many people usually associate G rated movies with Disney animated adventure movies and rated R is usually associated with crime drama movies such as The Godfather, Scarface etc.DrGeroCreation said: miereneronaile said: Who cares if they are using the wrong word? You already know what they are talking about.DrGeroCreation said: Who the hell cares really. If a guy likes Naruto and asks in the recommendations forum for a next shonen anime to watch it's obvious he would most likely get recommendations like Bleach, One Piece, Fairy Tail,Hunter x Hunter etc. not anime like K'on, Azumanga Daioh and stuff like that. The thing is, they are using the word wrong. Its kind of like a lesser version of the way the op talks. We can normally figure out what he means, but it would still be 100 times better if he was perfect at using English. im sorry but use that system of useing demos as genres for movies yes time you see one thats an AGE resisction not a demo like there alot of shounen stuuf that is poular at time of first brodcast with girls right would a person under 12 get in to and R movie Legally no Shounen is demo bot not a Resrtiction |
DrGeroCreationJan 20, 2014 6:12 PM
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| If you looked closely, you'd find thematic differences between, say, science fiction targeted at early teens and science fiction targeted at adults. Thus, demographics make the genre. Although I readily admit it takes at least the abstract thinking of a 14 year old to understand this point. Teen pop might not be all about the same thing, but there are elements in teen pop music that make it "teen pop" -- if there were not, such a genre/demographic term would never have been invented. There is Conservative news -- is that a genre or a demographic? Any thinking man would know that it's both. News that is targeted at conservatives have thematic elements of interest to conservative people. Nobody would make the mistake of thinking that conservative news presents exactly the same issues at exactly the same angle as liberal news. So why do anime fans make the mistake of thinking anime that is marketed to the shounen demographic is indistinguishable to anime that is marketed to the seinen demographic? And if they're not indistinguishable, then there must be some element which distinguishes them. I find that the people who insist that shounen is a demographic, not a genre, must be the same people who insist that anime must be Japanese -- in other words, people who improperly use exclusive terminology to make themselves feel more wanted, like if you "know" that moe is not anime style, then you must be part of the cool anime hipsters group. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| Of course there are thematic differences, elite-sama, what the OP is trying to mean is that they don't define the demographic of the anime. What defines it is the serialized manga it is based on. If K-On! is seinen and Azumanga is shonen, the reason doesn't come in the form of a trait, a plot device or the discourse. It is about as essential as: this one was serialized in Manga Time Kirara and the other in Dengeki Daioh (Wikipedia FTW). This reason doesn't exclude the existence of a thematic difference, but the thematic difference in turn is not enough to explain the demographic of the show. And I have my issues to find that key difference in this case, to be honest. It may be a lot more clear in some others. |
NoSurrender1690 said: watch this to[ic either get locked or no traffic The sooner the better. What a stupid topic. What evidence do you have that people don't know the difference between genre and demographics? Some single sample? If they are stupid, why is this the topic and not: "Why are anime fans mostly stupid?" NoSurrender1690 said: 3 a Demographics is a set of people based on sex or age range ect that a Produuct would be marketed toward ie not a Narrative need It's not just sex and age by the way. It also sells to nationalities, and any other form of creed. It's forming a grouping to pander to, pre-arranging elements for wider audience acceptance. |
CrimeIntraJan 20, 2014 11:58 PM
| How do people get to 2000 hours when I'm already this bored? |
miereneronaile said: Arbitrary. They are demographics. Media marketed to demographics have observable traits. If you think the age group is somehow specially exempted for what is true in every other demographic -- every other category -- then be prepared to explain why.elite-sama said: Notice how conservative is not say, an age group?Conservative I think that there is a pretty important difference between 'shounen' for example, and conservative as demographics. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
jal90 said: How people know that a show is shounen or seinen is due it being published in a shounen or seinen magazine. The reason a show is shounen or seinen is due to it being accepted by magazine publishers as material that they deem would be successful towards the demographic that these magazines are marketed to. This is due to thematic elements. Whether the authors specifically write to this demographic (and incorporate these elements deliberately) is up for speculation. There may even be some overlap, as there is between "psychological" and "drama". But it doesn't change the fact that shounen and seinen does specify certain thematic elements.Of course there are thematic differences, elite-sama, what the OP is trying to mean is that they don't define the demographic of the anime. What defines it is the serialized manga it is based on. If K-On! is seinen and Azumanga is shonen, the reason doesn't come in the form of a trait, a plot device or the discourse. It is about as essential as: this one was serialized in Manga Time Kirara and the other in Dengeki Daioh (Wikipedia FTW). jal90 said: A layperson might not be fully aware of the divide, but if there isn't objectively enough information to say that a show targets a certain demographic, then I would consider it marketing failure. It would be like watching a commercial and wondering, "Who are you speaking to?" Or watching a movie and thinking, "Am I supposed to laugh?" After all, some time before release, professions whose jobs are to maintain the image of the magazine pick these anime/manga -- and their decisions are not random.This reason doesn't exclude the existence of a thematic difference, but the thematic difference in turn is not enough to explain the demographic of the show. And I have my issues to find that key difference in this case, to be honest. It may be a lot more clear in some others. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
elite-sama said: jal90 said: A layperson might not be fully aware of the divide, but if there isn't objectively enough information to say that a show targets a certain demographic, then I would consider it marketing failure. It would be like watching a commercial and wondering, "Who are you speaking to?" Or watching a movie and thinking, "Am I supposed to laugh?" After all, some time before release, professions whose jobs are to maintain the image of the magazine pick these anime/manga -- and their decisions are not random.This reason doesn't exclude the existence of a thematic difference, but the thematic difference in turn is not enough to explain the demographic of the show. And I have my issues to find that key difference in this case, to be honest. It may be a lot more clear in some others. Then you are getting a little bitchy because not only you are trying to tie demographic to content inequivocally but get angry when it doesn't :P Anyway and seriously, to set the case of Azumanga and K-On! I think what should be taken into account is the marketing context, and the trends. One comes before the niche market is properly stablished and the other comes later, due to whatever cultural development reasons. Just in the same way any narrative or artform may change its appeal in different social and cultural contexts. |
jal90 said: Uh yeah, make presumptions about my personality only makes you look like a moron... If the mere fact of something being marketed to some demographic has no effect on content, then what would it have an effect on? Do you think people go to college for marketing only to sit idly and twiddle their thumbs because marketing has absolutely no effect?elite-sama said: Then you are getting a little bitchy because not only you are trying to tie demographic to content inequivocally but get angry when it doesn't :P jal90 said: A layperson might not be fully aware of the divide, but if there isn't objectively enough information to say that a show targets a certain demographic, then I would consider it marketing failure. It would be like watching a commercial and wondering, "Who are you speaking to?" Or watching a movie and thinking, "Am I supposed to laugh?" After all, some time before release, professions whose jobs are to maintain the image of the magazine pick these anime/manga -- and their decisions are not random.This reason doesn't exclude the existence of a thematic difference, but the thematic difference in turn is not enough to explain the demographic of the show. And I have my issues to find that key difference in this case, to be honest. It may be a lot more clear in some others. jal90 said: K-On! and Azumanga isn't even close to the same thing. Azumanga is closer to Lucky Star.Anyway and seriously, to set the case of Azumanga and K-On! I think what should be taken into account is the marketing context, and the trends. One comes before the niche market is properly stablished and the other comes later, due to whatever cultural development reasons. Just in the same way any narrative or artform may change its appeal in different social and cultural contexts. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| Azumanga is closer to K-On! than to Lucky Star. See? I can make bold statements as well. Irrelevant, though, because I am talking about stuff that brings similar content. Not about comparisons with a third show. Ichigo Mashimaro is closer to Azumanga than K-On! and Lucky Star together, so? On the other thing... heck, I put my :Ps for a reason. |
miereneronaile said: Not being very honest! For example, you think that there is a pretty important difference between 'shounen' and other demographic categories. What is the difference?elite-sama said: Honestly, you are the one making claims here. miereneronaile said: Arbitrary. They are demographics. Media marketed to demographics have observable traits. If you think the age group is somehow specially exempted for what is true in every other demographic -- every other category -- then be prepared to explain why.elite-sama said: Notice how conservative is not say, an age group?Conservative I think that there is a pretty important difference between 'shounen' for example, and conservative as demographics. miereneronaile said: No. If there are certain rules of counterpoint in Classical music, then you'll have no trouble pointing out whether a particular number is Classical or Baroque, right? And if you make a mistake, would that disprove the fact? No, it wouldn't. We do, however, notice that certain shows are shounen or seinen based on the themes and subject matter that they take, and the tones that they present the narrative or the message that they preach. When given 2 shows with contrasting demographics, we can see why and how they appeal to different people. I will stop short on saying that I could identify the specific traits in any given list -- frankly, that's a fallacy appealing to ignorance.If media marketed to demographics has observable traits, youll have no trouble pointing out those specific traits in any list of seinen anime you are given right? |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
jal90 said: So your point is to draw some kind of a connection between K-On! and Azumanga by saying that some kind of niche was established in between the years to market a younger content to an older audience? While I can't disprove your theory, I fail to see how this supports any position relevant to this argument. Azumanga and Lucky Star are both shounen, and it is easy to see why compared to K-On!Azumanga is closer to K-On! than to Lucky Star. See? I can make bold statements as well. Irrelevant, though, because I am talking about stuff that brings similar content. Not about comparisons with a third show. Ichigo Mashimaro is closer to Azumanga than K-On! and Lucky Star together, so? On the other thing... heck, I put my :Ps for a reason. I could make the bold claim that One Piece somehow set the stage for Steins;Gate, and that would neither prove nor disprove thematic differences between the genres. I could say that Stargate SG-1 set the stage for The 40-Year-Old Virgin; what would my point be? Have I succeeded in proving that comedies don't exist and that 40-Year-Old Virgin is actually a science fiction? Definitely not. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| So is this a response thread to JD and Tallon's derailment of Drama's thread about Watanabe possibly being the best anime director? OT: Well if the genre is named after a demographic and targeted at that specific demographic then aren't they pretty much the same thing? I know definitively the two words are different but in the case of the shounen/shoujo/seinen/jousei genres of anime aren't they are basically the same thing? |
FreshPrinceofMAL said: So is this a response thread to JD and Tallon's derailment of Drama's thread about Watanabe possibly being the best anime director? OT: Well if the genre is named after a demographic and targeted at that specific demographic then aren't they pretty much the same thing? I know definitively the two words are different but in the case of the shounen/shoujo/seinen/jousei genres of anime aren't they are basically the same thing? Except for the fact that Shonen/Shoujo/Seinen/Josei/Kodomo are not genres at all. |
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yhunata said: FreshPrinceofMAL said: So is this a response thread to JD and Tallon's derailment of Drama's thread about Watanabe possibly being the best anime director? OT: Well if the genre is named after a demographic and targeted at that specific demographic then aren't they pretty much the same thing? I know definitively the two words are different but in the case of the shounen/shoujo/seinen/jousei genres of anime aren't they are basically the same thing? Except for the fact that Shonen/Shoujo/Seinen/Josei/Kodomo are not genres at all. http://i.imgur.com/0ngtc38.png Tell MAL that then. |
FreshPrinceofMAL said: yhunata said: FreshPrinceofMAL said: So is this a response thread to JD and Tallon's derailment of Drama's thread about Watanabe possibly being the best anime director? OT: Well if the genre is named after a demographic and targeted at that specific demographic then aren't they pretty much the same thing? I know definitively the two words are different but in the case of the shounen/shoujo/seinen/jousei genres of anime aren't they are basically the same thing? Except for the fact that Shonen/Shoujo/Seinen/Josei/Kodomo are not genres at all. http://i.imgur.com/0ngtc38.png Tell MAL that then. The thing is, even if MAL keeps them in the genres area, a demographic can never be a genre. A demographic is a "target market", a genre is a specific style. They're nothing alike. |
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miereneronaile said: Instead of showing you what the traits are, I have shown you that the must exist. I don't have to even know the actual differences between a mammal and a reptile to demonstrate that if these labels are real, then the differences must also be real. See, either you think:elite-sama said: Fair enough, but unless you can show that the traits are there... I see no reason to accept that they are.miereneronaile said: Not being very honest! For example, you think that there is a pretty important difference between 'shounen' and other demographic categories. What is the difference?elite-sama said: Honestly, you are the one making claims here. miereneronaile said: Arbitrary. They are demographics. Media marketed to demographics have observable traits. If you think the age group is somehow specially exempted for what is true in every other demographic -- every other category -- then be prepared to explain why.elite-sama said: Notice how conservative is not say, an age group?Conservative I think that there is a pretty important difference between 'shounen' for example, and conservative as demographics. miereneronaile said: No. If there are certain rules of counterpoint in Classical music, then you'll have no trouble pointing out whether a particular number is Classical or Baroque, right? And if you make a mistake, would that disprove the fact? No, it wouldn't. We do, however, notice that certain shows are shounen or seinen based on the themes and subject matter that they take, and the tones that they present the narrative or the message that they preach. When given 2 shows with contrasting demographics, we can see why and how they appeal to different people. I will stop short on saying that I could identify the specific traits in any given list -- frankly, that's a fallacy appealing to ignorance.If media marketed to demographics has observable traits, youll have no trouble pointing out those specific traits in any list of seinen anime you are given right? 1. People 7-15 and 16-30 have exactly the same interests (i.e. demographics don't truly exist). 2. Demographics do exist, but it is impossible to effectively target them, or that every single marketer in the world has failed. If x topic is mentioned, it would significantly equally appeal to every possible category of people. 3. Demographics are metaphysical objects that we sense intuitively and have no empirical effect on the medium, like souls, real moral properties, or God. 4. Japanese age demographics like shounen are different than every other kind of demographic or category in the world that delineate something in that the delineation can't be defined. For example, you could poll American children and find that teens are more interested in the X-Box than people over 30, but the same would be impossible to apply for the Japanese. 5. Magazines like the Manga Time or the Shounen Ace, or Dengoku Daioh have exactly the same themes, such that if you replicated their contents without the title pages, no one would be able to statistically significantly identify which belonged to which. 6. Japanese marketers who claim to be targeting a demographic are all lying. As far as I'm concerned, all of your options are pretty ridiculous. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
yhunata said: FreshPrinceofMAL said: yhunata said: FreshPrinceofMAL said: So is this a response thread to JD and Tallon's derailment of Drama's thread about Watanabe possibly being the best anime director? OT: Well if the genre is named after a demographic and targeted at that specific demographic then aren't they pretty much the same thing? I know definitively the two words are different but in the case of the shounen/shoujo/seinen/jousei genres of anime aren't they are basically the same thing? Except for the fact that Shonen/Shoujo/Seinen/Josei/Kodomo are not genres at all. http://i.imgur.com/0ngtc38.png Tell MAL that then. The thing is, even if MAL keeps them in the genres area, a demographic can never be a genre. A demographic is a "target market", a genre is a specific style. They're nothing alike. I know they aren't the same thing but it's a term commonly used to describe a type of anime/manga. There are many things that have double meanings that don't always have anything to do with each other. For example take the word "lie" you can both lie down on a bed and tell a lie but neither of them have any thing to do each other yet they share the same word. So why can't shounen be used to describe both a demographic and a genre without anyone having to rant or get upset about it? |
yhunata said: So you're saying that material that targets a demographic is virtually indistinguishable from material that targets any other demographic (e.g. girl toys are exactly the same as boy toys)?FreshPrinceofMAL said: The thing is, even if MAL keeps them in the genres area, a demographic can never be a genre. A demographic is a "target market", a genre is a specific style. They're nothing alike.yhunata said: FreshPrinceofMAL said: So is this a response thread to JD and Tallon's derailment of Drama's thread about Watanabe possibly being the best anime director? OT: Well if the genre is named after a demographic and targeted at that specific demographic then aren't they pretty much the same thing? I know definitively the two words are different but in the case of the shounen/shoujo/seinen/jousei genres of anime aren't they are basically the same thing? Except for the fact that Shonen/Shoujo/Seinen/Josei/Kodomo are not genres at all. http://i.imgur.com/0ngtc38.png Tell MAL that then. And if dolls are indeed different than firetrucks, then how does that not affect the style and themes of that content? |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
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