Kara no Kyoukai 5: Mujun Rasen Episode 1 Discussion

naikou said:

How do we know that? All she has to do is make one clone of herself. That clone can make another clone of herself. And that clone can make another clone, forever and ever.I mean, once they explain why she can't do that, I'll have no problem buying your argument, but in the meantime, Touko is essentially invincible.

naikou said:

Right, but that doesn't explain why Araya didn't just.... tie her up. Even if she can figure out how to "kill" the ropes, I'd like to see how she would do it without being able to move. Either Araya is extremely stupid, or Shiki's power is even more hax than it seems.

naikou said:

Appendicitis is an inflammation. What did she kill? The fact that the appendix was inflamed? What she did was roughly equivalent to somehow killing a bruise (by stabbing it). It's completely stupid.

Uminekko said:
It's not a clone. It's a puppet. And it needs a soul to operate it.

Uminekko said:
Araya isn't your normal kidnapper, he is a magician for christ sake. Since you have just explained the mistake Araya made, which Touko pointed out in the Movie, so I don't really know what you're point is. If you're saying Araya is stupid for not tieing her up. It's almost like saying why didn't Lelouch geass everyone to listen to him in the first place (Yes I know its a stupid example).

Uminekko said:
She destroyed the existence of it. She didn't cut (kill, or w/e) it.

naikou said:

Call it what you want. I still haven't seen a reason why she couldn't mass-produce them.


It's funny because I had that exact problem with Code Geass. But anyway, what you're saying is that Araya locked her inside a magical barrier after he saw her break his seals, and then he didn't bother to prevent her from moving around and damaging the seals.

If that's the case, then fine, but it just lowers my opinion of the writing of the movie.


She destroyed the existence... of the inflammation of her appendix. By stabbing it. o.O

Ketuekigami said:
if your looking for exact answers your looking in the wrong place. it took the Fate/Stay Night and Tsukihime game 10s of 20s of 50s of hours to explain all the questions your answering so if you dont want to be here discussing it for days and days i suggest you either play the games or dont complain because you seem to be thinking that you will understand if we tell you in a few words but its not gonna happen. The Type-Moon works have some of the most in depth and complicated stories ever written.

Uminekko said:
1. Who said she stabbed it?

Uminekko said:
2. Seals =/= magic barriers. And it is repeated don't know how many times that. She cuts existences.

Uminekko said:
3. Puppets so close to a human body isn't something you can mass produce, it requires a long long time, and mass magic energy to link the nerves and forming tissues.

Uminekko said:



Stop.. Please.. You're making this sound so complex and hard to understand when it's not.

naikou said:

That's what happened! She says, "If you were in pain, why didn't you say so?" And then she stabs her in the stomach. Then she walks out of the complex and says, "I killed the disease inside of her. If you're quick, you might be able to save her."


Oh, right. Because there's a huge freaking difference between "seals" and "magic barriers".


There's absolutely no evidence for that statement yet. For all we know, they can be produced in a factory. But suppose you're right. Suppose she only has one spare at a time. The second she dies, she goes to work building a new spare. She is still invincible (or nearly so).

Ketuekigami said:
it just makes you sound like an asshole who cant enjoy a fictional story without every last bit of info being explained.

naikou said:
It's easy to make claims without any evidence. You're entitled to feel however you want about the movie, but don't try to refute my criticisms if you can't even come up with some proof to back up your claims.


Inconsistencies bother me. They detract from my enjoyment, especially from movies which are trying to go for a serious tone like Kara no Kyoukai. If you're willing to overlook writing flaws, then that's fine. Don't expect me to do the same.

Ketuekigami said:
we have been explaining everything youve been saying but your only answer has been "theres no proof" when our proof is our knowledge of the Type-Moon world.

Ketuekigami said:
There our no writing flaws that you have brought up.

naikou said:
I don't like the way Shiki helped the Emiya-clone at the beginning of the movie. Felt totally out of character from what we've seen in the past few movies. She definitely did not seem like the type to hunt down a guy who dropped his key, rescue him from thugs, and then allow him to stay in her room for a week. The unexplained change in her character bothers me.

naikou said:
The explanation for how Shiki escaped the "enclosed space" was also pretty vague. Textbook example of a deus ex machina. Somehow, she managed to "cut" the building?

naikou said:
Touko can create infinite puppets for herself to re-activate once she dies.

That's funny, because I've actually played through Tsukihime and Melty Blood, and seen Fate/Stay Night, and I don't remember it explaining anywhere why Touko is limited to one clone. Or how long it takes for her to make a new clone.

Perhaps you could tell me exactly where in the "Type-moon" world, this is explained?

Ketuekigami said:
all the things about Mystic eyes are explained in Tsukihime and all Magic is in FSN.

Ketuekigami said:
oh and btw, if your gonna quote and respond to only half of my reply i dont see how we're gonna get anywhere. how bout the fact that i said its all explained in the previous movies and if you cant understand that then your never gonna understand anything in the movies and dont expect me to explain them when all your gonna say is "theres no proof" when its all there in the previous 4 movies.

Uminekko said:
You better check the dictionary for what clone means. Clones are made by genetic engineering.
It's a >>handmade<< puppet that functions the same as a normal human body. Even if she has a whole basement of her puppets. And Touko is not invisible, remember how Araya kept the head unscratched for her not to go to the next puppet.

Uminekko said:
Blame the director for not making it clear then, since it was fully explained in the novel.

I don't see why the distinction between clones and puppets is important, but if you prefer, I'll call them puppets. Even if you keep her head in a jar, you can't do more than inconvenience her slightly. Eventually someone will break the jar, or she'll die of starvation, or that body will get old and wear out.

Ketuekigami said:
Ex 1: you see Touka working on making puppets by connecting nerves but it was obviously something that takes time. She doesnt just magically put them together "there "hand made" meaning "she does everything with her hands."
Ex1.5: Touko says (in #5) that when she is killed her soul is implanted into the clone (puppet).

Ketuekigami said:
EX 2: and you wond know this if you played Tsukihime. quote from Arcueid. "you can kill anything as long as it exists, armaments or magical enhancements dont matter for you". Shikis (both of them) can "kill anything as long as it exists. that includes magic (as shown in KnK #3 when Shiki "killed" Fuginos ability) and living things.

Ketuekigami said:
Thats because it has to be at least be able to be understood by the human brain. Its explained in Tsukihime that there eyes just open up unused pathways (magic circuits) in the brain that allow them to see what normal humans cant, but things with no form like Time, heat, or darkness arent able to be seen through the human brain. If she even tried to kill certain things that are way beyond her understanding she would fry her brain (which is also explained in Tsukihime) and turn into a vegetable. The limit on what she can kill all comes down to "human understanding" (in the Type-Moon world).

Ketuekigami said:
But seriously, this is too much work explaining Type-Moon logic to you so im out. If you seriously want these questions answered play FSN, replay Tsukihime, and read KnK because these are all questions that you are thinking way to much about and should in no way lessen the experience of the movie.

Drengot said:
I agree. This is more Type-Moon logic. It's not something you can just explain. You'll have to see it yourself.

Massaki said:
Or, you can go the easy (hard?) way out and read all the terms used in the Nasuverse that consists of Fate/Stay Night, Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai.

http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/~typemoon/

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/TYPE-MOON_Wiki

There are other places, but these two usually do the job.

naikou said:

More importantly, why should I have to play through everything Type-Moon has ever done in order to understand the logic of the movie? That itself is a flaw. It would be like if I were reading Shakespeare, and they made references to totally unrelated things in plays I might not have read. Like I'm reading Hamlet, and suddenly there's a scene where they go on about how tragic Juliet's death was.

Ketuekigami said:

these are all questions that you are thinking way to much about and should in no way lessen the experience of the movie.

Ketuekigami said:
This has nothing to do with the movie anymore. its gotten to the point of Type-Moon in general since your asking questions that never even appeared in the movie but are your or questions... like "why doesnt Touka make infinite clones?" that has nothing to do with the overall story.

naikou said:

It's not directly connected to the story, but if I know that the characters can just come back from the dead, I'm certainly not going to feel any of the pressure I'm supposed to feel when they get into trouble. Which was my original point.

naikou said:

It's not directly connected to the story, but if I know that the characters can just come back from the dead, I'm certainly not going to feel any of the pressure I'm supposed to feel when they get into trouble. Which was my original point.

2 hours ago Uminekko said:
....... As for the head in a jar.
The head isn't alive. Touko that time was considered "dead", but she can't move her entire soul without having her original body totally destroyed, therefore Touko is not invincible. ...And Formalin exists in the TM world.

Uminekko said:

And Ketuekigami,
The novel came first. Before FSN, TSUKI so theres absolutely no point in bring them up.

Wishy said:
I'll say it in the simpliest way: fanboys. That's the reason for this high score, same applies for TTGL and Code Geass. (In CG and this case, apply the high scores related to the prequels, as explained before)

Wishy said:
I'll say it in the simpliest way: fanboys. That's the reason for this high score, same applies for TTGL and Code Geass. (In CG and this case, apply the high scores related to the prequels, as explained before)

Wishy said:
They can only use to arguments: "You haven't watched it." or "You don't understand it.", in this case we just get the first one, and then when we watch the movies and keep saying "this is over-rated", we gonna get that we are idiots.

meonlyme775 said:
Let me just pop in a "quick" comment here. I don't believe that this is the work of fanboys.

Exhibit A: Compare the score of this to the other KnK movies. Can fanboys really be this spread out?

Exhibit B: I had yet to give a KnK movie a 10 before this one. The impression it made on me was astounding. Everything from the soundtrack to the storyline pulled me in unlike any of the other KnK movies had. After watching #1, I decided to continue because the animation was so good, and I'm glad I did, if only for #5. In my opinion, #5 put together what the previous 4 lacked individually:

Soulstrider said:
Do we need to watch the previous movies to understand this one ?

Wishy said:
I'll say it in the simpliest way: fanboys. That's the reason for this high score, same applies for TTGL and Code Geass. (In CG and this case, apply the high scores related to the prequels, as explained before)

dxthegreat said:



^
Avoid