ihateeveryone said: People seem to like her just because she's a strong female lead, or something like that. Whenever I see something like that, my fingers itch to recommend those people to watch The Twelve Kingdoms. "Strong female lead" always rings so hollow when it's attached to Mary Sue characters like this. |
metamorphiusJul 21, 2013 5:40 PM
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Red_Keys said: I get where you're coming from, but I can't exactly agree since I found him to be kind of poorly written all things considered. Not for being a wimp like everyone else says, but more because of his unrealistic development (Beta Shu to Hitler Shu to Jesus) and less than believable relationship with Inori. This may open a whole wiggly bag of worms, but I disagree with Ouma Shu being on the list. My personal feelings about him or that anime aside, I don't think he even qualifies. Generally, he is a disliked character. I mean, compare the amount of favorites he has to the amount Inori has. Although I won't disagree with you either since I didn't find him to be notably bad like, say, Yuno Gasai |
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| Seiba is best housewaifu. +1 for relations because she is a horrible female lead for reasons most people explained in the F/Z poll already. |
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
SaberRitsu said: It always sound bad when you put it like that, but Shu's development is one of the most basic zero-to-hero plot. A lot of characters, not only anime/manga, use that kind of development. It's just a problem with the fans that regard him as one of the greatest character in the current era.I get where you're coming from, but I can't exactly agree since I found him to be kind of poorly written all things considered. Not for being a wimp like everyone else says, but more because of his unrealistic development (Beta Shu to Hitler Shu to Jesus) and less than believable relationship with Inori. metamorphius said: because the concept of being "strong" is always put in a bad use. Most people always refer to being "strong" in "physical prowess" rather than "personality/charisma" which make most characters seems hollow.ihateeveryone said: People seem to like her just because she's a strong female lead, or something like that. Whenever I see something like that, my fingers itch to recommend those people to watch The Twelve Kingdoms. "Strong female lead" always rings so hollow when it's attached to Mary Sue characters like this. in that regard, what do you guys think about Saber? |
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| And also regarding Shu's "abrupt" and sporadic characterization, can you even imagine the amount of stress he was put under? It was a legit plot point that he at least had PTSD. Repressed memories and all. I mean, it's not every day you become the cause of a global apocalypse. Who knows what other mental issues he had fucking up his brain. Being the most important pawn of a terrorist organization isn't exactly a therapeutic or relaxing task. Especially at age 15. Bipolar disorder (manic depression), depression, insomnia, you name it. I know we weren't exactly spoonfed his psychological condition, but anybody saying it is "healthy" was clearly not paying attention. I'd buy the "his changes in characterization are too abrupt" bit if it weren't for the explicit plot point of Shu being mentally unstable. And the changes he does go through are understandable. I know Guilty Crown had a lot of problems. But I honestly feel that Shu's character was not one of them. |
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Red_Keys said: ihateeveryone said: Fixed.People seem to like her just because she's a strong female lead, or something like that. Oh dear. +1 Shu (If Yuno isn't getting out of relations neither will Shu ;_; ) |
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tsudecimo said: I'd say Shu has a much bigger chance of getting off of there than Yuno. Yuno is a far worse character with many more favourites. It was also unanimously agreed that Yuno is perfect for the list whereas Shu hasn't gotten anything like that. I don't agree with him, but considering there are certainly better choices for the list I won't be too depressed about seeing him leaveRed_Keys said: ihateeveryone said: Fixed.People seem to like her just because she's a strong female lead, or something like that. Oh dear. +1 Shu (If Yuno isn't getting out of relations neither will Shu ;_; ) On another topic I haven't seen all of Oregairu but my brother keeps talking about how terrible of a character Hachiman is. He has 2000 favourites and has legions of fans talking about how he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. From what I've seen of the show he just seems like another generic cynical male lead who desperately wants to be Kyon. Considering what little I've seen of the show feel free to take my opinion with a grain of salt. I'd just like to know what everyone else thinks |
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| ^ LOL. Nigga Sir please learn the meaning of the word generic. It's like the point of this club is to use buzzwords without knowing the meaning of them or packing them up.. |
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tsudecimo said: First of all, I know what the word generic means and am using it in the proper context.^ LOL. Nigga Sir please learn the meaning of the word generic. It's like the point of this club is to use buzzwords without knowing the meaning of them or packing them up.. Second, I have stated that my opinion doesn't hold much weight so there is no need to respond so rudely. Third, please clearly state your own opinion if you disagree with what I have to say rather than resorting to ad hominem Fourth, you've missed the point of the club Fifth, do not call a white person 'Nigga' |
SeibaaHomuJul 22, 2013 5:38 AM
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SaberRitsu said: ]First of all, I know what the word generic means and am using it in the proper context. What is the meaning of the word ''generic'' then? How did you use it in a proper context? How is Hachiman possibly a generic character? Second, I have stated that my opinion doesn't hold much weight so there is no need to respond so rudely. I didn't respond rudely. I told you to learn the meaning of the word generic, since this is the second time you use it in a wrong way, making it just a buzzword you use in an effort to make your opinion more credible. pssst. It's not working :/ Third, please clearly state your own opinion if you disagree with what I have to say rather than resorting to ad hominem Where is the ad hominem? Actually where is the argument ? I just stated some stuff, I've yet to start an argument. Fourth, you've missed the point of the club I know the point of this club. Meh. Fifth, do not call a white person 'Nigga' ? |
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| @tsudecimo: This is not the first time I see you are attacking people in this club because they disagree with your opinion - not to mention you don't provide arguments to back up your claim how the respective series is not generic. Please, be more reasonable or else you'll receive a strike. Consider yourself warned. PS: This also applies to the recommendation thread (which should imho not degrade into the MAL rec subforum). |
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
| That's not how it works. If someone wants to bash a certain character/anime then he has to give proper reasons before I can go in argument with them. For example if someone said Ghost in the shell has generic poorly written characters, will you start giving them reasons as to why they aren't or will you ask them to elaborate on their statement? Either way I apologize. If you want to add Hachiman to the relation then you better give me more than ''he is a generic loner type that tries to be like Kyon'', which doesn't even make sense in so many levels. |
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| I didn't say 'loner'. I said 'cynical', something which Hachiman undoubtedly is. They're two completely different things As I said, my opinion doesn't hold much weight so I can't really back it up very well. That is why I'm asking for everyone else's opinion. Something which I am still waiting on. |
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tsudecimo said: For example if someone said Ghost in the shell has generic poorly written characters, will you start giving them reasons as to why they aren't or will you ask them to elaborate on their statement? This is how the enlightenemnt camps and the relations lists ALWAYS worked. We provide arguments, discuss them and then decide. Hell, I wrote entire paragraphs about the shortcomings of Naruto just days ago - which you convenientely ignored because they don't fit in with your opinion. And before the discussion even starts, let me tell you the following: When someone has CG, Naruto and Bake in their favourites they HAVE to justify why they think a character is good. The reasons are already in our club pictures and got elaborated many times in the past few months. If you unable to follow these rules you shouldn't bother in the first place. |
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
Nidhoeggr said: This is how the enlightenemnt camps and the relations lists ALWAYS worked. We provide arguments, discuss them and then decide. That's my point. Where did Saberitsu provide an argument? Hell, I wrote entire paragraphs about the shortcomings of Naruto just days ago - which you convenientely ignored because they don't fit in with your opinion. Nidhoeggr said: Naruto was a paragon of hard work in the earlier arcs ("Only losers cry instead of working" in the Wave Country), someone who always advertised how hard work will triumph over genius and lineage. What became of him? I'll tell you: He became the shinobi messiah who gets everything handed to him because he is special. Naruto was about hard work and he still is ( I didn't read the manga so I'm mainly talking about the anime). Nothing was handed to him because he was special, the Kyuubi's powers were giving to him when he was a baby which brought him misfortune more than anything if you want to call that special then sure. What are the things that were giving to him because he was special? Every power he has right now, he achieved by training or by being creative to master them ( Controlling the Kyuubi powers, Rasen shoryuken, Sage mode, etc). He is the son of the fourth Hokage and Kushina and therefore blessed with extraordinary amount of special chakra, he is the only shinobi who never learned a new technique and got more powerups handed to him than almost everyone in recent arcs and he is someone who defies all common laws in the internal logic of the series. You are basically repeating what you said in the previous quote. He has special amount of chakra because he is a Jinjuriki. What do you mean he never learned new techniques? ( from the start: Clone jutsu, rasengan, rasen shiruken, Sage mode, The new nine tails mode he has now) All he is other ''power ups'' were from training with the help of Kakashi, Jiraya, Yamato, Bee etc. He became the ultimate ninja because of his lineage and his blood. That is both a mockery to the themes in his own series and of his character. His blood doesn't have anything to do with his strength, he didn't inherent anything from the fourth hokage aside from his looks. He just had the nine tails inside him from the very beginning because he is the son of his mother, I don't get why are you talking like that was some ass pull that happened in the middle of the series, it's clearly explained from the beginning of the anime that Naruto has the nine tails on him which the reason for a lot of his misfortune and it was also explained times and times again that he is power and chakra came from the nine tails. He worked hard for everything he has ( Friends, power, etc) and thus he became the hero of the leaf village after saving it from Pain yet his character didn't change which is something admirable. did I mention how he cries and hyperventilates if he only only thinks of his husbando Sasuke? Surely he has grown as a character in this case.. Ridiculing something doesn't strengthen your argument or anything, anything can be mocked. He cares about Sasuke because his friendship was something he worked hard for, starting from the useless brat that everyone hated to the point of him being with people he can call friends. Sasuke case is special to him because he considered him a rival and friend, someone who he wanted to stand on equal footing with. He is constantly frustrated that he can't safe him. Etc. ( it would take walls of text to properly explain the relationship between the two) All of your little rant could have been summed up in two sentences: '' Naruto has ass pulls upon ass pulls of power ups because he is so special. He is gay for Sasuke.'' And before the discussion even starts, let me tell you the following: When someone has CG, Naruto and Bake in their favourites they HAVE to justify why they think a character is good. Oh again with the favorites talk. Hmm. Fallacies, fallacies everywhere. The reasons are already in our club pictures and got elaborated many times in the past few months. If you unable to follow these rules you shouldn't bother in the first place. ummm wut ? What rules ? consider me the dumbest person on the internet because I don't see how is this relevant to anything. |
tsudecimoJul 22, 2013 6:47 AM
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SaberRitsu said: As I said, my opinion doesn't hold much weight so I can't really back it up very well. That is why I'm asking for everyone else's opinion. Something which I am still waiting on. |
SeibaaHomuJul 22, 2013 7:23 AM
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| Yes I know. I already apologized, I brought your name again because Nid said I'm the one who was supposed to provide an argument. Anyway, I will gladly share my input if other people agree with you on Hachiman. |
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Nidhoeggr said: Seiba is best housewaifu. +1 for relations because she is a horrible female lead for reasons most people explained in the F/Z poll already. You are my freaking hero. +1 for the worst character in the Fate franchise. Also, -1 for Hachiman, I know how anti-social introverts act in high-school (because I used to be one), he's an too well written to make the list. |
| "The more inexperienced you are, the more you want to show off." - Oreki, Hyouka |
tsudecimo said: Yeah, this. Nid, how can someone's favorites make them anymore beholden to the rules than anyone else? And doesn't that kind of go against the point of this club?Nidhoeggr said: And before the discussion even starts, let me tell you the following: When someone has CG, Naruto and Bake in their favourites they HAVE to justify why they think a character is good. Oh again with the favorites talk. Hmm. Fallacies, fallacies everywhere. |
| Nid, you're taking the Naruto character debate way too seriously, we're not asking Naruto to be removed from anime relations (where it should be, I think we all agree on that), we're asking how legitimate is it to put Naruto on character relations when a good portion of us see him as a genuinely well-written character. I suggest that we poll Naruto as well as Itachi because the two of them have sparked too much debate to be placed in character relations outright in my opinion. On a side note, +1 Shu. One of the most poorly written characters I've ever seen in any series, sorry Red_Keys, I respect your opinion but I just can't see Shu as a good character as well as the fact that he's still an overrated Gary Stu in my eyes. |
| "The more inexperienced you are, the more you want to show off." - Oreki, Hyouka |
| we won't poll any characters since it's basically more work for admins, and compared to anime/manga it's much less important and much more subjective. Ouma Shu will never leave the relations imo as it's a perfect example of how wrong characterization and development can be when trying to make something more out of what essentially is a shitty shounen character that has little to no originality and fail horribly. Characters like him are the reason character relations even exist in the first place anyway. |
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| Hi, Eve here on an alt. I'm in hiding Honestly, I can totally understand why Nid is taking this debate so seriously -- he's trying to get his opinion through and since a lot of Naruto fans are extremely dense and prone to actual criticism of Naruto, he has to do anything he can to get his word across somehow. Plus, it was tsudecimo who brought up the whole debate again. Yes, Nid mentioned it, but tsud was the one who decided to counter all his points and bring this up again. More polls = more work for admins, and it was already decided by a majority quite a while ago that Naruto is worthy of relations. A good written character? I wouldn't know -- I haven't seen Naruto. But regardless, so many favorites and so much favorites just for a "good" written character is quite the overrated stance if you ask me. All in all, cool down the Naruto debates in general, since most of these stances are already set in stone with all the fact laid out and discussed time and time again. Don't bring up and start old arguments in this thread, since this is purely for discussion CHARACTER relations, not miscellaneous things or obvious things like Naruto. And please, please realize that more polls is more work, stress, and time for the admins, who I know first hand have enough things to worry about and do in their own life to dedicate their time to an unneeded anime debate/flame war/etc. |
sushi55 said: Nid, you're taking the Naruto character debate way too seriously, we're not asking Naruto to be removed from anime relations (where it should be, I think we all agree on that), we're asking how legitimate is it to put Naruto on character relations when a good portion of us see him as a genuinely well-written character. I suggest that we poll Naruto as well as Itachi because the two of them have sparked too much debate to be placed in character relations outright in my opinion. On a side note, +1 Shu. One of the most poorly written characters I've ever seen in any series, sorry Red_Keys, I respect your opinion but I just can't see Shu as a good character as well as the fact that he's still an overrated Gary Stu in my eyes. He's taking things too seriously, but you want to poll a character instead and enlarge this debate to possible flame war levels? Great logic. Also, two people in a thread isn't 'a good portion'. |
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| -1 for Saber What was so bad about her? I remember her to be one of the better characters in Fate/Zero |
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Zerkalo said: -1 for Saber What was so bad about her? I remember her to be one of the better characters in Fate/Zero Why not mention some things that you think are good about her then? |
Akichii said: he's trying to get his opinion through and since a lot of Naruto fans are extremely dense and prone to actual criticism of Naruto, he has to do anything he can to get his word across somehow. I don't think Nid is being too serious, I don't know why you all think like this. I'm actually glad he provided some reasons because that's somewhat rare in this club from my own personal experience. What he said wasn't harsh since I've read harsher criticism and I don't mind if he writes walls of text in the future, I will be glad if anything. Plus, it was tsudecimo who brought up the whole debate again. Yes, Nid mentioned it, but tsud was the one who decided to counter all his points and bring this up again. Well he baited me more than once. Plus he said it was okay if I started an argument on Naruto and I won't a get a strike if I do that. and it was already decided by a majority quite a while ago that Naruto is worthy of relations. Then why isn't he in the relation then? A good written character? I wouldn't know -- I haven't seen Naruto. But regardless, so many favorites and so much favorites just for a "good" written character is quite the overrated stance if you ask me. It's not because he is just a ''good'' written character. Lol, what do you want then? for him to be the best written character of all time? it's like the concept of a ''favorite'' is foreign to some of you. All in all, cool down the Naruto debates in general, since most of these stances are already set in stone with all the fact laid out and discussed time and time again. Where? Links? Don't bring up and start old arguments in this thread, since this is purely for discussion CHARACTER relations, not miscellaneous things or obvious things like Naruto. What? Also where is the flaming you are talking about? discussion = flaming ? |
tsudecimoJul 22, 2013 11:55 AM
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Valkyrion said: Can you explain a little more?Ouma Shu will never leave the relations imo as it's a perfect example of how wrong characterization and development can be when trying to make something more out of what essentially is a shitty shounen character that has little to no originality and fail horribly. Characters like him are the reason character relations even exist in the first place anyway. Not trying to be condescending, but all I saw reading that was "He is bad because he is bad". And besides, "horribly written" characters isn't even the criteria to be on the list. Fans of the show don't like him because of simpleton "he's wimpy" reasons. And everybody else doesn't like him because he's apparently a "shitty character". I'd agree with somebody like Kirito being on the list, because generally, in the SAO fandom, he's the best thing since sliced bread. But Shu? Hell. |
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| 1) Naruto's arsenal of attacks is vastly limited. Rasenshuriken is basically just Rasengan (which got de-evaluated because every fucking moron like Konohamaru can use it as well), the clones are only ever used as cheap decoys and preperation for Rasengan 8which eh still can't use with one hand if I remember correctly), he never learned a real wind jutsu outside of his imbued wind chakra for the Rassengan, etc.. Hell, even his special modes (which he got unreasonable fast within the story framework) only serve to enhance his Rasengan. He is like Ichigo, a one trick pony. And unlike most other adventure Shounen where the hero is just punching Naruto was suppsoed to eb about strategy. 2) If Naruto is all about hard work, why is he able to overcome the limitations of the system like chunin/jonin exams, got chosen to be the Host of the Nine-Tails in the first place because he was the son of the Fourth, got tons of extra exceptions that wouldn't be possible otherwise and is all in all handled like he is the ultimate harbringer of hope. Not to mention that Kishi is intentionally portraying capable characters as incapable to create situations where Naruto can shine (Tsunade...). 3) His friendship with Sasuke IS a big problem, because it ignores his character concept. Naruto used to detest crybabies who seek revenge or blame others for their own shortcomings and mistakes. And Sasuke is doing exactly that. Of course, the Leaf isn't all fun and happy games but the Uchiha were traitors and did deserve to be wiped out. And what did sasuke do after learning that Itachi was a good ninja (upholding his discipline, etc.) and that the Leaf changed? He blamed the new Leaf top brass for the shortcomings of his dumb and futile revenge plot and plotted to destroy the home of his former comrades fully aware that he was being used to an extent. Naruto should NEVER symphatize with such a person. And he not only symphatizes with him, he craves his attention. He chases Sasuke down for a good part of the story ignoring his other tasks, he acts like a wimpy, whiny and spoiled little brat whenever it comes to him which fully contradicts its dominant upbeat and DIY attitude, in short: His whole relationship to Sasuke is a stain to his character. And last, but not least: I mentioned your favourites because - and that is the sad truth - a large chunk of the portions of the userbase of that franchise have a) not much experience (see expert-layman communication) b) are very defensive about their "first anime" c) Are often claiming that their favourites are their favourites because they are well-written. Like tsudecimo did when we talk about other entries in the enlightenemnt list while convieniently not even trying to watch series that don't appeal to him to broaden his horizon. It is ok to like and favourite Naruto, but if you go around and proclaim it is the best with a rather low amount of finished series, dubious entry tier favourites and arguments that are always contested I have to ask myself Asimov's question: Is your ignorance equal to the knowledge of experienced users? And the answer in regards to most Naruto fans can only be "No", as horrible as this conclusion is... PS: Favourite character =/= good character =/= well-written character. Everybody should get that into their thick skull already. |
NidhoeggrJul 22, 2013 12:20 PM
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
| Shuu is very relations worthy. That shinji shounen ripoff is one of the worst characters I've ever seen. For him not to be in relations would be a crime. |
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Akichii said: Zerkalo said: -1 for Saber What was so bad about her? I remember her to be one of the better characters in Fate/Zero Why not mention some things that you think are good about her then? She was an interesting character. Torn between wanting to be a ordinary woman of her time and having the responsibility for a whole nation. She doesn't know what she's supposed to do and the only character who is in an ethical dilemma (I'm not counting Kiritsugu because that utilitarism stuff was just stupid). Saber was the only character who actually had the justification to be in the Holy Grail War. |
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DrunkenBlowfish said: Shuu is very relations worthy. That shinji shounen ripoff is one of the worst characters I've ever seen. For him not to be in relations would be a crime. http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=552207&show=360#msg23714315 |
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| I thought everyone was referring to Shu from Now and Then, Here and There, so disregard my comment. XD |
tsudecimo said: Then why isn't he in the relation then? Except he is. It's not because he is just a ''good'' written character. Lol, what do you want then? for him to be the best written character of all time? it's like the concept of a ''favorite'' is foreign to some of you. Favorite character =/= good, well written character. You can love a character and STILL accept the fact that they aren't well-written. Akarin from Yuru Yuri, for example. She's far from an objectively good and developed character, but she's still one of my favorite because I find her adorable, fun, cute, and entertaining. Just because a character is your favorite DOESN'T automatically make them good. I'm saying that just being "good" doesn't justify the immense popularity a character has. Again, I can't speak much for Naruto as I haven't seen it. I'm just saying. Where? Links? Do I really have to go through all the comments, skype conversations, and threads to find examples? Just ask anyone here, really. What? Also where is the flaming you are talking about? discussion = flaming ? My wording with obvious may have been wrong, sorry. As for the flaming: "^ LOL. Nigga Sir please learn the meaning of the word generic. It's like the point of this club is to use buzzwords without knowing the meaning of them or packing them up.." And yes, calling someone a "nigga", even if it IS crossed out, is an insult and a flame. Im sorry that I have to bring up that particular post again, but you asked. I realize you apologized for the post but you still asked for an example. |
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ihateeveryone said: tsudecimo said: Then why isn't he in the relation then? Except he is. Oh didn't notice that, when he was first brought up he wasn't there. .-. It's not because he is just a ''good'' written character. Lol, what do you want then? for him to be the best written character of all time? it's like the concept of a ''favorite'' is foreign to some of you. Favorite character =/= good, well written character. You can love a character and STILL accept the fact that they aren't well-written. Akarin from Yuru Yuri, for example. She's far from an objectively good and developed character Where are you getting with this? Sure that may be the case sometimes for some people but the two things are not mutually exclusive. There is no such thing as objectively good. Maybe use ''critically''. People who have him in their favorite love Naruto and the majority of them think he is well written (including me obviously) I'm assuming. Just because a character is your favorite DOESN'T automatically make them good. I'm saying that just being "good" doesn't justify the immense popularity a character has. Again, I can't speak much for Naruto as I haven't seen it. I'm just saying. People put the characters in their favorites for three reasons: 1/ They love the character it's one of their favorites. 2/ They think the character is well written with great characterization, good back story, amazing development, etc. 3/ It's symbolic for something in their real life ( i.e Satou from Welcome to the NHK) The combination of 1+2 makes it justified. Since I don't read minds I don't know where of the three reasons the majority of the people who have Naruto in their favorites fall under neither do you. Do I really have to go through all the comments, skype conversations, and threads to find examples? Just ask anyone here, really. I didn't read it in this thread or any other thread in this club that's why I asked. If it's simply threads on MAL then sure link it. Im sorry that I have to bring up that particular post again, but you asked. I realize you apologized for the post but you still asked for an example. No. I asked for an example of flaming in the discussion between me and Nid about Naruto because you asked to stop debating Naruto. |
tsudecimoJul 22, 2013 1:03 PM
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| Well, if you have Naruto in your favourites because you think he is good you better answer my questions about the character and by extent the whole series. Because if you think Naruto is well-written I doubt you are thinking critically. The flaws are just THAT obvious. Red_Keys: Shoe is relations-worthy because he is a character with very badly written flaws. Unlike Shinji,Guts or other characters with severa drawbacks his overly whimpsical side, his inconsequential decisions and his overall attitude as well as his "character development" from an outgoign person to a bad Shinji clone is not only overplayed and way too dramatized, but also inconsequential. He turns into a badass Shuhrer when the plot demands it, he is a spineless whimp when the plto demands it, etc. He is nothing but an empty slate - like all of the "characters" in GC. |
NidhoeggrJul 22, 2013 1:12 PM
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
| Tsud, I won't be replying until you reply to Nid's comment. |
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| On the topic of Hachiman: I watched one episode and dropped it afterwards because EVERYTHING about the show was generic. The same archetypes we saw ten fucking thousand times already, the same snarky, oh-so-witty, pseudo-antisocial protagonist that is just a bad Kyon ripoiff to cash in on angsty teenaged idiots and otakus. Almost everyone I know and whom i trust said he didn't really develop in the first 11 episodes and the first episode already established him as a terrible character to me. can someone please point out what makes him so great that he warrants 2k+ favourites? |
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
Nidhoeggr said: On the topic of Hachiman: I watched one episode and dropped it afterwards because EVERYTHING about the show was generic. The same archetypes we saw ten fucking thousand times already, the same snarky, oh-so-witty, pseudo-antisocial protagonist that is just a bad Kyon ripoiff to cash in on angsty teenaged idiots and otakus. Almost everyone I know and whom i trust said he didn't really develop in the first 11 episodes and the first episode already established him as a terrible character to me. can someone please point out what makes him so great that he warrants 2k+ favourites? Being a more realistic, cynical, better written character of said archetype? The fact that many people can relate to him due to them also being anti-social and being able to relate to him better than say, Satou from Welcome to the NHK also really helps explain why he's so liked. So no, he's underrated rather than overrated if anything. The series in question does a fantastic job in showing what it means to be a high-school outcast, and the way the series portrays how society rejects him and his ideals also really helps. Can you please try to explain your criticism further? I really don't understand how we suddenly jumped to attacking Hachiman. |
sushiisawesomeJul 22, 2013 2:00 PM
| "The more inexperienced you are, the more you want to show off." - Oreki, Hyouka |
| How is he better, more realistic and more cynical? Please, explain. And just because you can relate with them doesn't mean they are automatically better written. I can imagine that some crazy women could relate to Gasai Yuno, but does that make her a well-written character because of that? |
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
Nidhoeggr said: Apparently because he's 'realistic' and 'relateable'. My brother, who dropped the show towards the end and gave it a 4, says that his cynicism makes actually makes him come off as whiny and annoying. I personally found the show to be very boring from without deviating much from the standard higschool romcoms that pop up everywhere and Hachiman just completed that puzzle for me.can someone please point out what makes him so great that he warrants 2k+ favourites? |
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Nidhoeggr said: How is he better, more realstic and more cynical? Please, explain. And just because you can relate with them doesn't mean they are automatically better written. I can imagine that some crazy women could relate to Gasai Yuno, but does that make her a well-written character because of that? That's not what I meant. I felt he was a more realistic character because the series went into great lengths showing us how he thinks and how bitter he was at how shallow most teenagers around him thinks. The script-writing later in the show went into more depth about his line of thinking, and showed that because of slight awkwardness and being more blunt than your typical high school brat, he was treated as an outcast and a nobody while at the same time having quite some more cynicism than a character like say, Kyon. Nid, for us to debate about this in more detail, I'd suggest trying to watch the show rather than base your assumptions on the first episode. Just saying. I apologize if my grammar seems poor, it's 12 at night, and I was planning on sleeping and just opened MAL on a whim. |
| "The more inexperienced you are, the more you want to show off." - Oreki, Hyouka |
tsudecimo said: The question coming into my head now is whether these are what make good characters. Anton Chigurh from No Country for Old Men has only 1 of these aspects, as does the Joker in almost any of his incarnations. Why judge characters by some checklist? And if you do want to, it may be easy to tell the difference between poor development and good development, but what makes the difference between adequate development and good development?2/ They think the character is well written with great characterization, good back story, amazing development, etc. |
| Lots of text below. ._. |
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Nidhoeggr said: Well, he in no way started out as an outgoing person.. Hell, direct eye contact legit made him uncomfortable.Red_Keys: Shoe is relations-worthy because he is a character with very badly written flaws. Unlike Shinji,Guts or other characters with severa drawbacks his overly whimpsical side, his inconsequential decisions and his overall attitude as well as his "character development" from an outgoign person to a bad Shinji clone is not only overplayed and way too dramatized, but also inconsequential. He turns into a badass Shuhrer when the plot demands it, he is a spineless whimp when the plto demands it, etc. He is nothing but an empty slate - like all of the "characters" in GC. And "the plot demands it" is just another way of saying "because situations happen in the plot that cause his characterization/actions to change", which is, well, the same for like every dynamic character ever. Good or bad. But can you clarify what you mean by "inconsequential"? |
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This thread as of now... |
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Red_Keys said: Nidhoeggr said: Well, he in no way started out as an outgoing person.. Hell, direct eye contact legit made him uncomfortable.Red_Keys: Shoe is relations-worthy because he is a character with very badly written flaws. Unlike Shinji,Guts or other characters with severa drawbacks his overly whimpsical side, his inconsequential decisions and his overall attitude as well as his "character development" from an outgoign person to a bad Shinji clone is not only overplayed and way too dramatized, but also inconsequential. He turns into a badass Shuhrer when the plot demands it, he is a spineless whimp when the plto demands it, etc. He is nothing but an empty slate - like all of the "characters" in GC. And "the plot demands it" is just another way of saying "because situations happen in the plot that cause his characterization/actions to change", which is, well, the same for like every dynamic character ever. Good or bad. But can you clarify what you mean by "inconsequential"? I haven't even seen all of GC to tell you that's BS. Shu isn't dynamic, he is in fact a clean slate. As the plot progresses and situations change, the character should grow with it, not just start back at square one every time. See Renton from Eureka Seven for example. He started off as a whiny kid and grows more and more competent as the series progresses. Shu never progresses, forgets any lessons learned at the drop of a pen. That is a perfect example of fundamentally bad writing when your character cannot stay consistent and is reduced to a shell who can be whatever the plot needs him to be. |
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ihateeveryone said: The worms are wiggling! Tee hee!This thread as of now... lordzeru said: I see.I haven't even seen all of GC Can I get Not_Biased in here? He might be able to provide some more brilliant criticism. |
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| The facts are: A) Naruto's goal since the beginning, which was extremely present, was to become hokage B) That goal effectively faded away away for over hundreds of chapters, and for no good reason took the backseat to another goal which was to bring Sasuke back, somtheing that Nid was right about since Naruto has never gone easy on or felt anything short of despise for for any antagonists or villains that killed innocents or threatened his village. It makes no sense that with Sasuke, he acts differently, no matter how strong of feelings of brotherhood he felt for him in the past. Furthermore, for his newest "mission" to consume him like that when everyone should be able to agree he should let it go is sad. C) Naruto gained his signature technique not by the hard work he was prone to in the beginning, but in under a week or so because of shadow clones. However you look at it, there wasn't any "figuring out" there like there was with the Rasengan, surface walking, . Naruto's biggest characteristic as a kid was that he was inspiring-- he worked hard like Lee, he managed to out stealth the ANBU to pull some pranks, he persevered despite the unbearable hatred of an entire town--but now any inspiration that can be found from him is almost gone. D) As it's been said before, it was already decided that Naruto was to be on the relations. It was final then. |
Red_Keys said: Can I get Not_Biased in here? He might be able to provide some more brilliant criticism. No response but this? I see you're just here to bait. I won't waste my time, then. |
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