Jtangamer said: do you think it's right to judge a character based on how generic they are in the beginning? Yes. |
Jtangamer said: Smirking said: Jtangamer said: do you think it's right to judge a character based on how generic they are in the beginning? Yes. Why? What kind character in the beginning do you find unappealing? Because it's shit writing. Any character that blatantly follows a trope is unappealing and one-dimensional. Even if they are developed somewhat over the course of a show it feels fake. |
| Tropes have their uses in story telling, but a character should also have traits beyond just the trope. They need their own opinions, thoughts, desires, emotions, etc. etc. in order to be (and feel like) developed, multi dimensional characters. Not to say "generic" characters are inherently "bad", but having a character that is, for lack of a better term, their own person can potentially be much more engaging as a story telling devise. |
| I don't know what this is, but here's my idea of that. Kind of just popped into my head. MR._________________[insert epic name here] always wanted to be a _________________[insert occupation that can get you killed here] but he was Really shy because when he was in middle school he had a crush on _____________[insert girl name here] but now that he just came back from ______________[insert a really tough made up school name] and now he is ready to save the world! and be with the girl of his dreams. PS while he was at__________________[insert really tough made up school name] he defeated a dragon and got a legendary power. |
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Jtangamer said: Well I'm not entirely sure about that, since most characters usually do follow a trope, regardless if the writer intends it or not... There's a difference between looking like a trope, and actually being a trope. If that makes sense. |
| In works of satire it's often necessary to have a generic character, but usually it's a bad thing. Also it's alright if they start out as a stereotype and then go through non-cliché development. |
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| As someone who is a writer I tend to not worry about tropes. It's hard to avoid them at the inception of a character, just about every starting point is a trope these days. It's their journey that you can make original. |
| I'm not sure if characters really need to develope. They need some development presented in some cases. But if they are multi-faceted and real no real developing is needed. It comes down to their complexity really... Complex chacters with their own motives, not horrible believes and relations might work out well... |
| There's nothing wrong about judging a character from the beginning. Initial impressions are important like that since if I'm gonna watch something, I'd want to know what I'm getting myself into. If a character starts off generic and is supposed to become a fully developed character by the end, there better be a really good reason for the hold off. I think people get annoyed by that because they don't want to waste their time with a character they think they've seen a million times before or they just so happened to not like that certain type of character. Something like that I guess. But really though, I see it as an underdeveloped character vs. a static character. Either they started off underdeveloped and ended up developed, or they started at point A and ended at point A. I'm not talking about backstory, special powers, or weird personality quirks either, though they can contribute. Something like, they're not characters for what they are or what they can do, but how they interact with the world they're in and their reactions to everything. Any character can have a dead family member backstory or crazy ass power or whatever. Question is, how does that actually affect the character? How does that cause the character to act and react? That, in my mind, makes for development. ...Unless they really are just straight up archetypes, then I have no idea 'cause I'm just rambling at this point. |
| Meh when the characters look like copy/paste from another series is usually enough for me to stop paying any attention to them if the plot looks good enough But that's usually just in manga because the plot and characters most of the time in Anime..... not worth it But then there are characters that are like emotionless mood swings and with no individual resolve or whatever like Ichigo Number 1 Ichigo rule in Bleach: ALWAYS look cool, even after getting ass kicked  |
| What matter is execution. |
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Jtangamer said: @Shocked Wow, Im impressed at your thought process. Thats a sound argument, however some people can't distinguish an underdeveloped character vs a static character (in the beginning) because its not obvious. I think another part of the argument however, is how they go through those developments. Usually characters go through some trauma before they make some major readjustments. I can't say much about anime like Steins;gate though, don't watch a lot of thought anime. With Steins;Gate, I'll just look at Okabe and Kurisu. Okabe is definitely a unique and quirky character, or at least a character I don't see often while Kurisu isn't in comparison. Okabe's character starts off strong and gets stronger. Kurisu starts off, dare I say, generic, but develops overtime, especially with regards to her interactions with Okabe. Though, I kind of wonder why the same treatment wasn't given to Kurisu from the beginning. This is what I think at least. Genericness also allows for simple characters to give way to a complex plot or setting. Spending time on character development on top of everything might just get things really mucky. And again, it's not so much "generic," but more underdeveloped. Name a character. Any character. There's probably another character just like them somewhere. It has been done before. Almost certainly it's been done before. There's just no way to force out a completely unique character without some genius writing or a lot of alcohol or something. So...Yeah...Comes down to that magical word: execution. It's kind of dumb like that. |
| Characters that ain't generic in the beginning can also have awesome character development throughout the story |
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| I would say yes AND no to the idea of "Is it okay to be generic at the beginning", No, if the character literally has no depth (though I guess it is nice that the writer atleast gave them character development so they weren't shitty all the way through, but I should also note that in most modern shounen even the character development is generic, losing a friend because of impatience/arrogance, finally achieving victory after accepting support of friends, etc.), BUT the deepest and best developed characters I have EVER seen were in a manga called Mars. The story starts by introducing you to a very shy female MC and an player/bad boy male MC ... Pretty much the most generic character types respectively in a shoujo/josei romance, as well as probably the most generic coupling. However in the beginning the author adds slight psychological elements to "uncover" very unique character depth and from there has strong character development, in this sense then the author actually developed the characters AFTER exposing they were not generic (i.e. you don't need to give room for a character to show growth, starting from a blank slate to a slightly less blank slate however is easier, basically just going from no personality to some personality, instead of actual growth, think of it as changing a character from a robot to a semi-human), and also the original story started with two seemingly generic characters ... I believe however this was intentional so that you could experience firsthand the character depth instead of just read about who they are ... but it is a good example that is both a yes and no to the questions asked. |
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Natsu12345 said: Characters that ain't generic in the beginning can also have awesome character development throughout the story and turn into generic tropes. |
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azzuRe said: Natsu12345 said: Characters that ain't generic in the beginning can also have awesome character development throughout the story and turn into generic tropes. That's where SnK disappointed me for a little bit (for now). |
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Jtangamer said: No, well when I first picked it up I had just started reading shoujo, and had actually only read one other w/ what I now realize is very generic (before even reading shoujo I actually hated most, claiming they were "too girly", which I won't exactly deny still but ... not a mortal sin in my opinion anymore) so when I picked it up, despite it being a very stereotypical shoujo set-up, I wasn't sick of the set-up and thus didn't consider it annoying (generic being a relative term, if you have never before seen an ecchi/harem, despite how generic they are, the first one will appear to be unique ... somewhat) so ... But, aside from that I have a strict "no drop" policy so ... even if I had been disappointed I Wouldn't have dropped it.Pirating_Ninja said: Did you think at the time, that since it was so generic that it was displeasing? Enough to make you drop a series? I should also note it is quickly apparent that their is more than what meets the eye although it isn't instantly shown what it is ... And I'm really not sure how to explain this one, but sometimes even a series w/ generic plot/characters can be okay, I don't know how to explain this but after reading ALOT of one-shots I have seen literally dozens of a certain plot w/ the same exact archetypes however even though they are both practically the same thing, I actually like some while others I will hate ... Mars may have started off seemingly stereotypical, but I still liked the "atmosphere" the manga gave off before the characters were shown to have greater depth. Not sure if this makes too much sense, sort of tired (have had 3 hours of sleep, then no sleep 2 nights ago, then 4 hours last night ... and my Summer started like 5 days ago ... teh fuq? Got more sleep during finals =/) but I'll try and come back tomorrow and proofread it, or if you don't understand something (either because of awkward phrasing or just because I make some retarded leap in logic) please feel free to point it out and hopefully I'll remember what I was trying to say. |
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