Right to die

Baman said:
As it has been said already, feelings are fleeting, and I too, have experienced times when I felt a longing for oblivion. But those feelings may pass, and you may find yourself glad that you didn't terminate yourself.
Ideally, I would have really suicidal people forced through some counseling first, and if they still really yearned for death, they should be given the appropriate pills and a booking for the crematorium. Forcing people to live when they don't want to is a cruel and selfish thing to do in my opinion, and if anyone could terminate themselves with prescription drugs, posers from certain sub cultures probably wouldn't bother playing with death anymore, as suicide would be a commonly accepted thing rather than a shocking way to rebel and gain attention.

Baman said:
As it has been said already, feelings are fleeting, and I too, have experienced times when I felt a longing for oblivion. But those feelings may pass, and you may find yourself glad that you didn't terminate yourself.
Ideally, I would have really suicidal people forced through some counseling first, and if they still really yearned for death, they should be given the appropriate pills and a booking for the crematorium. Forcing people to live when they don't want to is a cruel and selfish thing to do in my opinion, and if anyone could terminate themselves with prescription drugs, posers from certain sub cultures probably wouldn't bother playing with death anymore, as suicide would be a commonly accepted thing rather than a shocking way to rebel and gain attention.

khorven said:
Except, skip the counciling, especially the forced. You're sill pushing the opinion 'staying alive is what we ultimately praefer' unto them. And for fucks sake, the counciling is horrid, psychiatry is a pseudoscience and is no further than medicine was in 1200 or some-thing. And that they think they know what they talk about makes it even more frustrating, I ended up splashing my hot coco in one of their faces as I was sick of their pseudoscientific naïve realism, for fucks sake.. the entirety of today's psychiatry requires naïve realism, naïve realism is contradictory to about every major theory in physics.. they ignored my points that they just made a circular definition, had an internal inconsistency, used vague and not defined terms like 'reality' every time until I watched amused as the guy was screaming because I splashed my coco in his face, ahahah.

Baman said:

Pseudoscientific naïve realism is really what most people are best at...
But if it's so bad as you say, then the counseling should maybe try to focus on other things. I'm sure I too would have been mighty pissed if some "expert" tried talking me into staying alive if I really didn't want to, especially if he highlighted some naive and optimistic views.
I'd think that perhaps a more nihilistic approach might be better in some cases, at least, speaking out of my own view on life. Life might be shitty sometimes, but it really doesn't matter, as nothing really matters. One could choose death, but then one would miss out on all the hilarities happening around the world. Human beings are rotten creatures, and merely watching the spectacles we create makes, in my opinion, life worth living. It's a tragedy, it's a comedy.
At least, the psychiatrists should try not to always focus on a positive view when the person in question obviously have a negative view on everything.

NewTypeX said:
Gratz you are a bonified sociopath.

Baman said:


I'll take that as a compliment :D

jrsygrl0601 said:
people have the right to die.
No doubt.
But i feel that the one who uses that right is acting in cowardice.
Although they hold that object in their hands, whatever it may be, ready to spill their own blood, unafraid/ uncaring of the circumstances, ultimately, they're still running away/turning their backs from something.but hmm, because of that same cowardice, they could refrain from doing it.

LadyShiva said:
Wow great timing for this post. I had a friend who killed herself two days ago. She hung herself. No offense but suicide is selfish and people who love you have to go through hard times after your death. My friend had friends hating her, parents fighting for a long time. Yet she was pretty lucky compared to other people.

LadyShiva said:
People in the first world countries are spoiled to think there life is hard. People in other countries have been and are going through more rough times then you, and they don't kill themselves. So whats the point? Really your luckier then you think, so if you kill yourself your just being a selfish person.

LadyShiva said:
Just because you have the right to kill yourself doesn't mean it's right.
I use to want to kill myself then I realized I'm pretty lucky. My cousins attempted suicide luckily one of her friends found her. As a Beatles song told me: It's getting better all the time.

Baman said:
You say suicide is selfish, but wouldn't i also be selfish of a person's family to want the subject to keep on living if it really didn't want to?

LadyShiva said:
Wow great timing for this post. I had a friend who killed herself two days ago. She hung herself. No offense but suicide is selfish and people who love you have to go through hard times after your death. My friend had friends hating her, parents fighting for a long time. Yet she was pretty lucky compared to other people.
People in the first world countries are spoiled to think there life is hard. People in other countries have been and are going through more rough times then you, and they don't kill themselves. So whats the point? Really your luckier then you think, so if you kill yourself your just being a selfish person.
Just because you have the right to kill yourself doesn't mean it's right.
I use to want to kill myself then I realized I'm pretty lucky. My cousins attempted suicide luckily one of her friends found her. As a Beatles song told me: It's getting better all the time.

LadyShiva said:


Reasons for suicide are usually
One: Get rid of your problems
Two: Make people sad and make them regret things they did to you
Also if your in debts your leaving your problems to others.

Also, forget to add this before, when you die, you die, it's a mistake you can't redo.
whether you're a atheist or a person who believes in God. When you kill yourself you either just die nothing happens to you and you could have had a better life then when you ended it at. Or if you believe in God you have to do your life all over again because you never finished the life you were suppose to finish. So either way you lose.

khorven said:
Oh, you can't undo the mistake of being alive either, the extra time you spent suffering is some-thing you cannot get back, that argument is pretty much void.

LadyShiva said:

Since when is being alive a mistake?

xXnagashiXx said:
if someone wants to die, they die.

khorven said:
Circular reasoning if I ever seen one, you're using the proposition 'being alive is good' to argue that being alive is good.

Of course it's a mistake if it's no fun? Being nullified is a pretty good alternative to having to cry and scream in a field every night I suppose, I could choose to do that for 60 more years and then die, or just die right now? Every moment I stall that is a mistake were it only to concern me.

xXnagashiXx said:
idiotic topic.

if someone wants to die, they die. 99% of the time they just end up takin bullshit ways

khorven said:
Coward from what? Afraid to do what?

'Afraid' of giving it another shot and trying to establish to live slightly better but still a lot worse? I'd say more tired of trying?

jrsygrl0601 said:

they are not a coward, they're just demonstrating cowardice at that moment, i would not wholly call them a coward if they're having some bad moments. Look, he who searches for release through suicide is ultimately turning their back on the prospect of life, for some reason only they know of, and they're only tired, because they're afraid the fight, the struggles, the whole idea of life, is ultimately not worth it, because they see the uncertainty of what's next, but the certainty of what's ahead. They're tired of trying, in some occasions, maybe because they're uninspired, by what the world has to offer, but maybe they're just looking for some reason to live they wrong places, or a more acceptable reason, their tired of looking for some substantial reason to continue through life , because their really isn't one, except to R.I.P. , the I.P. part is the trickiest. See in my opinion, you could commit suicide and be at rest, but i'll never know if one get's to rest in peace that way, not with themselves, but with the world. D: he who commits suicide hold's some grudge against the world it seems, because the world is flawed, the child is starved, people are dying, the beauty in life, is decaying with corruption. where one could say there's beauty in nature, the other could say, that same beauty is being corrupted by mandkind. Yes we all will eventually day, but we will not all die in peace with the world. We all endure problems, so wut, one may think they've got it bad, but there's someone else who's 10x worse , who's working their arse off, going day by day, and still going through it, if they can/must do it, what makes you so special that you need not continue ? Suicide is selfish.

jrsygrl0601 said:
he who commits suicide hold's some grudge against the world it seems, because the world is flawed, the child is starved, people are dying, the beauty in life, is decaying with corruption.

khorven said:
Nahh, not really, the idea that your life will be better is a naïve one, humans are biologically designed to præfer to believe what they præfer to be true, also known as 'optimism', we all some-where believe and hope that it one day will be better, the bare truth is that it isn't going to be better. People who believe it is are the cowards, not of life, but of realizing the truth, like all humans, humans are afraid of the things they don't like so they believe true what they præfer as a substitute.

The most brilliant minds in the history of man weren't very happy, and that's for little more than that they are objective, man sees the world through a pink filter alas, evolved like that because man is then better able to survive when it cannot see all that is wrong. 'Always look on the bright side of life' is in terminis 'Ignorance is bliss'.

khorven said:
Ignorance if I ever saw it, it's complete bullshit what you say here, the whole 'emo' craze kind of helpt giving people that opinion. If people want to die they don't die that easily, what people often don't realize is that suicidal people have the same biological and irrational fear of death any-one has, they simply don't like their lives that much. I make no secret of that I am relatively depressed, however I treat it as just as much a quality of me that I like women with small breasts for instance, and will only state it when it's relevant, this topic here was started after an MSN convo I had with some-one about someone who was rendered limbless after a failed attempt and was not granted euthanasia as it was ruled that there was still a small chance that that person would eventually get a better life, yah.. it reminded me of that Laiho article.

xXnagashiXx said:


Ignorance? I'm probably far more qualified in the issue than you are with your common highly contradictory argument.

A man's right to die is fully compromised by their fear; thus, they might take action to commit suicide without pure intentions of doing so. There still may be a slight hanging feeling that they might not be making the right decision. Given the correlation between doubt and method of suicide, those who do not take actions extreme enough to die will be taken away their right to do so due to the doubt that is often still present and the possibility that they still might be 'saved.' However, those who truly wish to do commit suicide will not have a problem dieing in the majority of situations.

jrsygrl0601 said:
i never said they want to destroy the world xD
In suicide one only destroys themselves, their physical self. not destroying the world, because you know as well as i do, that too few people in this world care about anyone else :P, so in commiting suicide, you kinda fail if your only point is to destroy the world xD , people won't be miserable, and maybe that's the reason why people feel they're insignificant, but still.

jrsygrl0601 said:
War, famine, and death are far from funny when you are in the war or have gone through the war and come back shell shocked with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) , or when you're famished because you haven't eaten for weeks. You know when one dies, the laughter is gone. People seem to laugh at other peoples misery, and then complain, when they're having problems and no one comes to the rescue (not all people of course, there's always exceptions to rules) but majority. Then they say that others are cruel, hypocritical they be, and they shouldn't be, but contradictions and hypocracy are a part of life :O xD wait, i forgot my point xDerrrm @_______@

Niccolo Machiavelli said:
Of mankind we may say in general they are fickle, hypocritical, and greedy of gain.

khorven said:
I doubt there is a person on the fucking planet more qualified in human psyche than I am in all due arrogance¹. The gargantuan flaw in psychological methods is the sheer number of self-fulfilling prophecies in diagnose-techniques, in fact, a lot of the criteria were especially added because people kept denying. it, it's so easy to solve when just then making 'subject denies' another criteria. Psychiatry and psychology are 'sciences' which are about seventy years old and they make the same mistake any science did at those ages, they are working with leeches currently, and of course people don't realise this, as humans never do, the doctors of mediæval times who worked with leeches and dubious methods didn't realize that what they did was flawed, the alchemists didn't, the astrologists didn't, the early physicists didn't, and most likely the current physicists also don't realize where they make some grave mistakes still. The current model psychology works with is thoroughly flawed, for fucks sake, it requires naïve realism, it requires problematic conjunctions such as 'reality' and 'distorted', all of which have shown to not exist already in hard sciences, this alone should be proof enough that it's flawed, and the funny part is that they openly admit that they were completely flawed as little as 20 years back. That's unacceptable to me for people who have authority, I said in that room talking to those people. 'That's a circular reasoning.', 'That requires naïve realism.', 'What is this 'real', you speak of, define it please?', which they ignored as too complicated and making a fuzz out of small points.. and when I finally got really pissed and pored a hot beverage over that guy I was 'aggressive' while I did so with a calm face and the question 'Are you going to behave now?' to it.. they do not even recognise the difference between aggression, hatred, and anger or feel it is insignificant, the flaws within their models are drastic for the simple reason they require naïve realism and that these people have authority is as dangerous as that mediæval doctors had them. The flaw with psychology is that you can't look into some-one's mind and have to go by what they tell you, and if it contradicts that which you claim, which happens all too often, you can just say that they lie or don't know themselves.. which they some-times do though, but you can never check.

1: Savant, see for yourself if you believe.

xXnagashiXx said:


It seems as if you looked at the first statement I made and ignored everything else of what I said.

And as for the the limitations of psychology... psychology is no longer a purely soft science. With the advances in technology made every day, we get closer and closer towards making it a hard science. While it may be nowhere near perfect now, we're continuously making progress in these terms. Essentially, scientists one day hope to pin down the exact though processes of humans by analyzing the metabolic reactions in context with the genetic coding of an individual... quite a scary concept.

khorven said:
That's the point, you continually make progress... every day psychology finds some-thing which refutes what was thought yesterday, and the next day again that will occur. Of course this needn't be taken in literal 'days', but that's why it's so risky to put faith into it.

And ehh.. the post attacks the entire post. You first hinted being a psychologist, thereby granting authority to take way you say as 'true', all I needed thus was to falsify your authority for your entire post to crumble.

xXnagashiXx said:


Hah well given you basically deny psychology as a usable science, that would pretty much take away credibility to anything you say at the same time. So the most efficient way of looking at things would be to use the limited knowledge we have to the extent that we can. Even if it may not be the full truth, theories usually come before facts.

xXnagashiXx said:

Hah well given you basically deny psychology as a usable science, that would pretty much take away credibility to anything you say at the same time. So the most efficient way of looking at things would be to use the limited knowledge we have to the extent that we can. Even if it may not be the full truth, theories usually come before facts.

georgi said:
I have to agree that psychology is Bull Shit. Going back to the topic of the right to die, I see that a lot of people said that it is our given right at birth. However, if you observe society, you can see that one of the worst evils that people consider is death. An easy and simplistic way to evaluate how bad war is is just to look at the death count; murder is possibly the worst crime one can commit, basically because people value life. This is why we consider the right to live a fundamental human quality. Here in Canada suicide is illegal; in other words, one does not only have the right to live, he has a duty to live

I understand that a person might be willing to die in order to avoid a painful situation, but from what I've seen in this post, a person choosing suicide is likely to be overly emotional. Even if you go rationally at reaching the choice of suicide, it is still highly unlikely that the reasoning would be flawless. I mean, no offence but I don't see how death can be a rational choice (in normal situations).

So no, you don't have a right to die, and society is justified in trying to prevent suicide. As for the people who posted here and are seriously considering suicide, my advice to you is to just shut up and live; sometimes thinking about the world too much is bad for you, so find something else to occupy yourself with before you do something stupid.

khorven said:
'Always look on the bright side of life / Ignorance is Bliss.' I præfer to not be that ignorant, that is why I don't take the pills, it's like a matrix, a blue pill designed to mask the truth from you, all it does is lower your perception, I wish to experience every-thing, and in the end maybe change a little, if Turing, Bruno, Russell and more got into custody or even killed for refusing to be blinded, my own sense of dignity does not allow me to take the easy way.