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Apr 22, 2012 7:24 PM
#251
Montrovant1488 said: ataraxial said: Montrovant1488 said: Kiritsugu = 2 Saber = 0 I think everyone's favourite blond bitch will get pwned badly. What are you talking about? Since they don't see eye to eye, have different ideals, etc. In my book Kiritsugu is winning (not the Holy Cum War, but the most bad ass character of this not-too-cool show). Kiritsugu won that argument although, he did look at Saber with dick-slapping intent. Now as for my 2-0 score it refers to the times Kiritsugu has pwned Saber or her honor, the first one was in the first season (can't quite remember the event) now this one, taking away from her this "knightly" fight and that argument that left Saber's hand in need of something of phallic nature. So that's what you meant. It's kind of hard to win if you're on the side of honor and your opponent isn't. In terms of a battle of ideals, both of them end up having to change, so neither really wins. Kiritsugu being sneaky and somewhat badass is just that. I don't see the point in giving him points for it since that's just how he rolls. sallym613 said: Actually I find their personalities slightly different from each other, though they're both very loyal in nature. I see Diarmuid as a rather cool, serious person while I see Cu Chulainn as someone rather hotheaded, though somewhat laidback with a sense of humor. However, I dont blame you for not seeing Cu Chulainn as such since DEEN didn't do a good job depicting that side of his character in the UBW movie. I like Cu Chulainn slightly more than Diarmuid mostly because of his sense of humor in UBW route xD As much as I admire chivalry a lot, I find Diarmuid's character a little bland when I first read the LN. Though the anime has made me like him a little more than before. Yeah I haven't gotten very far in the UBW route yet. Though I do see where you're coming from with the humor + hotheaded-ness vs seriousness. Cu Chulainn definitely shows it in the Fate route as well, in the beginning scenes as well as when he decides to fight Gilgamesh at the end. I'm guessing that it's a lot more obvious in UBW though. |
Apr 22, 2012 7:45 PM
#252
Moekou said: Zero_sama said: That's because the anime only covers 1/3 of the story, and characters don't all get to perform at their peak each route. It's not about power levels, its a war where anyone can die at any moment after all, without a chance to demonstrate what they can really do, due to betrayal, traps, underhanded tactics, temporary limitations, ect. = probably that's why, I have only seen the anime adaptations, never read the novels. Never knew that Cu Chulainn is more GAR than Archer. But still I kinda like more Diarmuid as Lancer, he has a great character design, the 2 spears he wields and what they do are awesome. Cu Chulainn in the anime didn't convinced me at all. Let's hope that Ufotable makes a remake of Fate Stay so we can see how badass he really is. For example, poor Rider didn't get much characterization and was never shown at her true power in the first two routes, being first to die in both. Even Fate/Zero viewers were quick to judge her far, far inferior to Zero's Rider immediately. So in the final storyline even Shirou was very quick to label her as a crappy Servant after her initial poor performance, but out of nowhere she unexpected starts kicking ass when she returns. More importantly, she actually gets some characterization as a person. Anyways, it's indeed highly debatable in terms of actions during the war who was the greater lancer. However, in terms of mythology, Cu Chulainn may be the single most famous Irish hero that kids strive to grow up to be like (Angela's Ashes!), and comparable to Hercules, while unfortunately Diarmuid is not only lesser known, but often only known for being that guy that slept with his lord's wife and then gut gutted by a pig. Some sources like Wikipedia back when Fate/Zero first came out barely had anything on him and don't even bother mentioning any of his esteem as a warrior (he WAS a great one but it's been overshadowed by the whole lovers triangle thing, which is why he is so desperate to try to overcome it here). I have heard Nasu once actually use them to demonstrate the power of territory. In Nasuverse, if they fight in this this Grail War Diarmuid can win since neither are well known and Diarmuid is portrayed as highly skilled in this series, but if they were fighting in Ireland, Cu Chulainn would almost certainly be the victor, due to how much more he's recognized as the forefront Irish champion. Anyways, in Unlimited Codes game they meet and Diarmuid is highly honored to meet Cu Chulainn and his win quote is ""It was an unbelievable honour to have a bout with the Prince of Light... I will cherish this memory deeply."" I like more Diarmuid's triangle love story, to Cu Chulainn's heroic one. Don't get me wrong Chulainn's story isn't bad and he his more famous, like you said, but overall I prefer Diarmuid. and... WOW I never knew that about Rider, that's another character I never found interesting cause they never showed some backstory and/or development in the first 2 routes of the anime, Ragna92 said: Zero_sama said: WOW first of all... they caught me off guard the way Lancer, Kayneth and his fiancee died... I thought Lancer was gonna get like an honorable death but he didn't, that's what happen when you take shit from everyone. In the end there's no doubt that he's spears and skills where pimp, and way better than the Lancer of Fate Stay/night Epic episode... Emiya Kiritsugu killed 3 characters like a boss. Seriously Emiya Kiritsugu is becoming more and more badass in each episode, he might take Gilgamesh's spot. I would love to see a conversation between Gilgamesh and Emiya. Let's see who dies next episode and I hope I don't have to see Rin again. Well get used to it. Your definitely going to see Rin again. Don't worry though, since it won't be filler the next time they show her. It's not that I hate her, but I mean you got all this epic and new characters that I have never seen before and I want to see them shine, not get out shined by Rin, who has her own screen time in the first 2 routes. |
Apr 22, 2012 7:46 PM
#253
ataraxial said: Wasn't trying to make your comments look vague. It sounded like you were being sarcastic, but there was nowhere for the sarcasm to be directed. Hence, misdirected sarcasm. If you're being serious, what logic makes being a dick and being a badass mutually exclusive in general? No Seriousness No Sarcasm Just playing.. |
"I left everything I own in One Piece" ~ Gol D. Roger |
Apr 22, 2012 7:51 PM
#254
BossLuffy said: ataraxial said: Wasn't trying to make your comments look vague. It sounded like you were being sarcastic, but there was nowhere for the sarcasm to be directed. Hence, misdirected sarcasm. If you're being serious, what logic makes being a dick and being a badass mutually exclusive in general? No Seriousness No Sarcasm Just playing.. Indeed. |
Apr 22, 2012 8:02 PM
#255
ataraxial said: BossLuffy said: ataraxial said: Wasn't trying to make your comments look vague. It sounded like you were being sarcastic, but there was nowhere for the sarcasm to be directed. Hence, misdirected sarcasm. If you're being serious, what logic makes being a dick and being a badass mutually exclusive in general? No Seriousness No Sarcasm Just playing.. Indeed. Exactly! ^o^ |
"I left everything I own in One Piece" ~ Gol D. Roger |
Apr 22, 2012 8:49 PM
#256
That's my new favorite episode right here. Diarmuid's death was just... wow. I knew it wasn't going to end well for him, but that was just brutal. I loved it! Oh Urobuchi you magnificent bastard you! Saber and Kiritsugu's dialogue was also great. I just hope they include that scene everybody's been talking about in the next episode. You know, Kirei with his father and all. Kiritsugu definetely earned my respect after this episode. I thought he was one of the least interesting characters up until now(aside from dat explosion), but that has changed. Definetely interested in seeing more of his backstory. |
YunoleffApr 23, 2012 8:44 AM
Apr 22, 2012 9:14 PM
#257
This episode was just incredible. Lancer's final words were very powerful and emotional. It's quite sad to see him go that way, loyal and devoted but rewarded with betrayal. |
Apr 22, 2012 9:24 PM
#258
Urobotchi Gen strikes again ! he really deserve his title "butcher gen" Lancer .. I'm still in a shock really this was very painful I'm totally against Kiritsugu's ideals and I don't find any truth in his words he must learn how to act from his servant and yes there is "honor" in death , and methods make a big difference between good and evil .. it's not just the goal but how you achieve it as well cheating on an exam and getting very good results doesn't make you a good student like the one's who studied hard ends doesn't justifiy the means Kiritsugu .. what you did was "horrible" by any means .. it's really very sad and tragic end to lancer and I don't even like lancer |
Apr 22, 2012 10:09 PM
#259
Awesome episode. That's Kiritsugu for us. Saber and her idealism...I can understand it but war is still = hell. |
Apr 22, 2012 10:40 PM
#261
Holy Jebus Christ is all I can say. Kiritsugu is awesome. |
Apr 22, 2012 10:52 PM
#262
Why did Kayneth kill Risei, again? Simply because he didn't want anyone else getting their hands on the command spells? Or was there also another reason? |
Apr 22, 2012 10:58 PM
#263
Mormegil said: Why did Kayneth kill Risei, again? Simply because he didn't want anyone else getting their hands on the command spells? Or was there also another reason? That's the main reason but he also wanted to frame Kiritsugu as well so he used a pistol to do it. |
Apr 22, 2012 11:23 PM
#265
That was tragic ;_; |
Apr 22, 2012 11:57 PM
#266
Perloo said: Mormegil said: Why did Kayneth kill Risei, again? Simply because he didn't want anyone else getting their hands on the command spells? Or was there also another reason? That's the main reason but he also wanted to frame Kiritsugu as well so he used a pistol to do it. I'm not sure if it was his intention to frame Kiritsugu, but there was no other way for him to kill Risei since he has no use of magic anymore. He would have felt shame having to use a gun. |
Apr 22, 2012 11:58 PM
#267
Man, what a horrible way for Lancer to go. He did look like Nightmare Fuel there with his face at the end, though. Although I never liked Kayneth, I still find it a horrible death for him, what with him still caring for his fiancée and then dying with her in his arms. Oh and poor Irisviel. I am not looking forward to seeing her get worse and worse. |
Apr 23, 2012 12:59 AM
#268
This is the work of Urobutcher afterall, you can look forward to more and more character dying. |
Apr 23, 2012 1:07 AM
#269
Subby said: I'm not sure if it was his intention to frame Kiritsugu, but there was no other way for him to kill Risei since he has no use of magic anymore. He would have felt shame having to use a gun. It was his intention but the anime did not convey it. |
Apr 23, 2012 1:43 AM
#271
LunarMoon said: Her ideals and her chivalric intention to avoid unsealing her arm, could have resulted in the death of thousands by Cthulu-Caster. That was rather foolish of her. Which is neither here or there to be discussed in this episode, is it? Or has to do with the outcome of both characters. She stuck to her ideals and so did Lancer. If wasn't for his chivalry, then Caster wouldn't have been defeated. Here's a hint about Saber and Kiritsugu: one of them felt regret for their actions and the road they took. While the other one needed to realize it was always the right path. They are both misguided. LunarMoon said: Fate Stay Night Spoiler: HF Shirou's choice could have spelled the end of thousands of innocents for the purpose of saving one girl. It was an incredibly selfish decision, on his part, and he's lucky that things ended up as well as they did. Uh, no? His decision was sacrifice NO ONE (even Kotomine and Illya pointed it out that he wanted to save everyone without compromises) up until his duel with Saber Alter. What he lost in that decision wasn't just killing someone he barely knew, but his conscious choice that he is compromising his ideal. That's why it was such a big poignant scene. His first conscious sacrifice, he could no longer run away from it. Besides, you also missed who was responsible for all this mess: all humanity. True justice would have been let it be born and pour the world with the curses THEY brought. Sakura (and Angra) were scapegoats in this whole thing. Angra Mainyu exists because of humanity (one of the points of Hollow/Ataraxia, btw) and will continue to exist until humanity is extinct. It isn't even the poor guy's choice either. Shirou wasn't choosing Sakura over other people at the end (of course she is more important than the faceless masses), the choice was between Angra and Sakura in the Kotomine vs Shirou conflict. Both of them had arguments about their innocence (and I would have sided with Kotomine, actually :P but I'm an Avenger fangirl so...). HF is really not like those easy-spotted antagonists white/black simplicity of Fate and UBW (while I like the themes explored with Saber and Archer, the climax was weak). It was to face facts that reality it isn't so nice or simple as we would have liked and we can't toss the blame on a 'bad guy' out for convenience's sake. Had he killed Sakura, as "Ally of Justice" shows, it would lead to a bad end. Most likely, he would repeat the mistake Kiritsugu did and get trolled by Kotomine and Gilgamesh after he kills Rin and Illya. Shirou picked no becoming a heartless killing machine like his father and he was able to do more than his old man did about the Holy Grail War (and be rewarded with what Kiritsugu wanted, deep down, a peaceful domestic life with the Grail-woman he loved). EclairHeart said: This is the work of Urobutcher afterall, you can look forward to more and more character dying. It isn't Gen's fault because Nasu already had written the outcome for this (HF hints to this episode incident). |
ThessApr 23, 2012 2:06 AM
Apr 23, 2012 2:37 AM
#272
Apr 23, 2012 4:35 AM
#273
Thess said: @LunarMoon: Her ideals are hardly foolish. What is foolish is her wish to rewrite history. That was what proven wrong. Rider misunderstood that regret was consequence of her ideals, rather it was consequence of her own despairing weakness. Saber realized this in the Fate route (and UBW one that leads to true ending). Thess said: LunarMoon said: Her ideals and her chivalric intention to avoid unsealing her arm, could have resulted in the death of thousands by Cthulu-Caster. That was rather foolish of her. Which is neither here or there to be discussed in this episode, is it? Or has to do with the outcome of both characters. She stuck to her ideals and so did Lancer. If wasn't for his chivalry, then Caster wouldn't have been defeated. The likely repercussions of Saber’s ideals aren’t relevant in discussing whether her ideals are foolish or not? I don’t follow. She stuck to her ideals and so did Lancer. If wasn't for his chivalry, then Caster wouldn't have been defeated. If it was for Saber’s chivalry, she never would have ended up using Excalibur in the first place. Lancer only bothered to break the spear because Kiritsugu, out of pragmatism, suggested it. Here's a hint about Saber and Kiritsugu: one of them felt regret for their actions and the road they took. While the other one needed to realize it was always the right path. They are both misguided. That sounds rather similar to Archer’s character arc in UBW, in which he realized how beautiful his past ideals, and by extension, the ideals of Kiritsugu, really were. The difference is that, unlike Saber, Archer actually went out smiling. Uh, no? His decision was sacrifice NO ONE (even Kotomine and Illya pointed it out that he wanted to save everyone without compromises) up until his duel with Saber Alter. What he lost in that decision wasn't just killing someone he barely knew, but his conscious choice that he is compromising his ideal. That's why it was such a big poignant scene. His first conscious sacrifice, he could no longer run away from it. By the scene at the church, both Rin and Shirou recognized Sakura as a possible threat and later on, it became an outright certainty that she had killed several civilians. Likewise, Shirou never chose to sacrifice no one, because as the narrative had repeatedly stated, such an action was impossible and naïve. Shirou chose to sacrifice the masses. Besides, you also missed who was responsible for all this mess: all humanity. True justice would have been let it be born and pour the world with the curses THEY brought. Sakura (and Angra) were scapegoats in this whole thing. Angra Mainyu exists because of humanity (one of the points of Hollow/Ataraxia, btw) and will continue to exist until humanity is extinct. It isn't even the poor guy's choice either. Angra Mainyu was killed and tortured by a collection of villagers from several millennia ago. What did the innocent civilians, who Dark Sakura killed, have to do with that event? They had no more a hand in it than someone such as Rin did, and yet Shirou interpreted what Sakura did to Rin in one of the bad ends as somehow crossing the line, after she had done the same to the friends and family of others. That always bothered me, especially since HF Shirou had the nerve to act as if he was bearing the cross by allowing the death of other peoples’ loved ones. I’m sure the friends and family of her victims would have a lot to say about Shirou’s “sacrifice.” Shirou wasn't choosing Sakura over other people at the end (of course she is more important than the faceless masses), the choice was between Angra and Sakura in the Kotomine vs Shirou conflict. Both of them had arguments about their innocence (and I would have sided with Kotomine, actually :P but I'm an Avenger fangirl so...). None of the masses were faceless, as they had loved ones and homes to go back to as well. Ultimately, HF Shirou was willing to do anything in order to save Sakura, whether it meant aborting the birth of Angra Mainyu, or allowing “The Shadow” to continue killing innocent people. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan! |
Apr 23, 2012 4:48 AM
#274
Aren't we going to know Lancer's past at all? Like who was the girl that was with him in 1st ED and what exactly happens when he was alive...This already happens with Assasin |
Apr 23, 2012 4:49 AM
#275
@LunarMoon: Lancer actually was thinking about it already but he didn't know for sure Saber truly had such an obliterating Noble Phantasm (more like, he knew she had Excalibur, just not that Excalibur was a bloody A++ Anti-Fortress attack). Honestly Saber can sometimes be uptight to a fault but she would have seen the need to use it without Kiritsugu having to boot into the conversation. Kiritsugu's main purpose with his call was merely to make Lancer's choice 100% certain and to ensure Caster was released exactly where he wanted it so Excalibur could be released at full strength. One of the main reasons Arturia never uses Excalibur is because it can, oh I don't know, burn entire city blocks off the face of the Earth. If Caster hadn't been positioned where he was the Excalibur blast could have potentially hit civilian property. Kenatsu said: We already did, in the episode right after Kayneth loses to Kiritsugu. Basically, it was a cliff notes version but basically we saw him at a party where Fionn Mac Cumhaill, leader of the Fianna, presents his fiancee. The fiancee, named Gráinne, falls to the curse of the love spot on O'Dyna's face and meeting with him later on binds him with a Geas that compels Diarmuid to betray his master and escape with Gráinne . He's later on pardoned and Diarmuid marries Gráinne. Fionn however never truly forgave and thus on a hunt with Diarmuid in which the knight is gored by a boar Fionn bides his time while Diarmuid life fades and then makes a mock attempt at saving him when he was already dead. Aren't we going to know Lancer's past at all? Like who was the girl that was with him in 1st ED and what exactly happens when he was alive...This already happens with Assasin Diarmuid's past is actually the whole reason why he accepts so much lip from Kayneth and why he rejects SOla-Ui's advances as he doesn't want history to repeat itself and lose his honor again. |
Leon-GunApr 23, 2012 5:07 AM
Apr 23, 2012 5:00 AM
#276
Kenatsu said: Aren't we going to know Lancer's past at all? Like who was the girl that was with him in 1st ED and what exactly happens when he was alive...This already happens with Assasin The girl? There was a flash back think at the beginning of ep 9 or 10. His backstory is already told there. |
Apr 23, 2012 5:01 AM
#277
Kenatsu said: Aren't we going to know Lancer's past at all? Like who was the girl that was with him in 1st ED and what exactly happens when he was alive... Did you forget to watch episode 9? It's all in there. |
Apr 23, 2012 5:13 AM
#278
Leon-Gun said: He has the ideals of a child with the misguided methods of a ruthless killer. Couldn't put it any better. Thats Kiritsugu for me. |
Whenever you correct someone's grammar just remember that nobody likes you. |
Apr 23, 2012 5:15 AM
#279
Also, The Assassin's are never explained because of the very reason that was stated in one of the BD specials. All assassins are Hassan-i-Sabah, "The old man of the mountain", leader of the Hashshashim. In the Fate Universe all the leaders of the sect through history took on the name Hassan-i-Sabah and the Holy Grail can only ever summon Hassan because he's the root of what an Assassin is. Assassins by nature don't leave a mark in history (anyone who does leave a mark isn't a Heroic Assassin, just a murderer and therefore not worthy of being in the Throne of Heroes), so only the essence of the word Assassin, "Hassan-i-Sabah", qualifies. Fate/Stay Night's Assassin, Sasaki Kojirou isn't really an Assassin Heroic Spirit. He's a wandering spirit that was summoned by Caster to take the 7th spot, therefore he breaks all the rules. |
Apr 23, 2012 5:16 AM
#280
Finally! Is the first time that I get excited watching this series. |
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Apr 23, 2012 6:06 AM
#281
Thess said: Uh, no? His decision was sacrifice NO ONE (even Kotomine and Illya pointed it out that he wanted to save everyone without compromises) up until his duel with Saber Alter. What he lost in that decision wasn't just killing someone he barely knew, but his conscious choice that he is compromising his ideal. That's why it was such a big poignant scene. His first conscious sacrifice, he could no longer run away from it. Besides, you also missed who was responsible for all this mess: all humanity. True justice would have been let it be born and pour the world with the curses THEY brought. Sakura (and Angra) were scapegoats in this whole thing. Angra Mainyu exists because of humanity (one of the points of Hollow/Ataraxia, btw) and will continue to exist until humanity is extinct. It isn't even the poor guy's choice either. Shirou wasn't choosing Sakura over other people at the end (of course she is more important than the faceless masses), the choice was between Angra and Sakura in the Kotomine vs Shirou conflict. Both of them had arguments about their innocence (and I would have sided with Kotomine, actually :P but I'm an Avenger fangirl so...). HF is really not like those easy-spotted antagonists white/black simplicity of Fate and UBW (while I like the themes explored with Saber and Archer, the climax was weak). It was to face facts that reality it isn't so nice or simple as we would have liked and we can't toss the blame on a 'bad guy' out for convenience's sake. Had he killed Sakura, as "Ally of Justice" shows, it would lead to a bad end. Most likely, he would repeat the mistake Kiritsugu did and get trolled by Kotomine and Gilgamesh after he kills Rin and Illya. Shirou picked no becoming a heartless killing machine like his father and he was able to do more than his old man did about the Holy Grail War (and be rewarded with what Kiritsugu wanted, deep down, a peaceful domestic life with the Grail-woman he loved). In the true end of HF he might of ended up with Sakura but once again the 2nd grail women got a pretty crappy end sacrifing herself to save Shirou and the normal end of HF gives no mention of her just that Sakura sort of went a little crazy forever waiting for someone who would not come back. I really do wish they gave an ending where Shirou and Ilya ended up really living together as brother and sister, i know she got the semi happy end in fate living with Taiga but that was a rather small ending. I wish they had given Ilya a route it did not even have to be a romantic one a brother and sister one would of been great as well. It just sucks that Ilya always seems to get stuck with the sucky end in stay night, with her mum and dad gone and all the crap she went through after you would think they would of gave her something. |
Othinus Touma Pairing http://hestia.dance/ |
Apr 23, 2012 9:53 AM
#282
I realllly wish people who have already read the volumes would not only not spoil things but also not allude to things that will happen in the future. Ugh. But great episode. |
Apr 23, 2012 10:56 AM
#283
LunarMoon said: The likely repercussions of Saber’s ideals aren’t relevant in discussing whether her ideals are foolish or not? I don’t follow. What repercussions? Once someone else said that (Irisviel wasn’t saying it either, by the way, and she doesn’t have chivalrous ideals, so is unfair to blame only Saber in this), she immediately confirmed it. LunarMoon said: If it was for Saber’s chivalry, she never would have ended up using Excalibur in the first place. Lancer only bothered to break the spear because Kiritsugu, out of pragmatism, suggested it. Lancer wouldn’t have broken that spear if he knew Kiritsugu informed him. He broke that spear because he trusted Saber and her chivalric spirit. LunarMoon said: That sounds rather similar to Archer’s character arc in UBW, in which he realized how beautiful his past ideals, and by extension, the ideals of Kiritsugu, really were. The difference is that, unlike Saber, Archer actually went out smiling. Except it wasn’t? Kiritsugu betrayed his ideals when he became a hard stone cold killer; he also betrayed his loved ones. Archer didn’t regret the path he took (trying to save everyone) before he was messed up as a Counter Guardian. He wasn’t wrong in taking it (he ignores of course who Kiritsugu really was). You’re also forgetting that, aside of HF resolution that fixes him a bit, Shirou’s an empty man like Kotomine, with a distortion that only allowed him to find happiness in other people’s salvation (or misfortune in Kirei’s place). Kiritsugu wasn’t this. He was normal (Kotomine hated him after discovering he wasn’t like him). Archer might be forced to lead a path like Kiritsugu now as Counter Guardian (which he hates), but the actions he didn’t regret were the previous ones who took him there. It wasn’t any fault of his own when he tried to be true to himself in life. That was the resolution he found. If anything, it shows that Kiritsugu’s path IS pretty bad. LunarMoon said: By the scene at the church, both Rin and Shirou recognized Sakura as a possible threat and later on, it became an outright certainty that she had killed several civilians. Likewise, Shirou never chose to sacrifice no one, because as the narrative had repeatedly stated, such an action was impossible and naïve. Shirou chose to sacrifice the masses. The Church scene? Are you just yanking my chain? Even Shinji was more menacing than Sakura there, who could be easily locked up in a room since she was a sick weakling. As far as Shirou knew at that time, Sakura was a low-tier magus with a pretty weak and unremarkable magic who could be possessed by Zouken and could, oh I don’t know threaten a person or two. Rin was pretty much a callous to try to condemn her sister as heretic while she didn’t do this with Zouken who would be the one responsible to control her, by the way. That was the ‘danger’: Zouken could control her. Shirou solved this with sex (to keep the worms from draining her). It had nothing to do with the shadow or sacrificing people. It had to do with an absurdly low menace threat of a girl who fainted when she walked to the front door could become a potential (if meaningless) threat. If Shirou chose to kill her, he would become a loser like his father. It was a hyperbole choice to paint Shirou as a bad guy (happy ending bad end was the one you are looking for). If you even played HF; long after this scene Illya and Kotomine both note how Shirou wants to stubbornly make NO SACRIFICES. Sure, Sakura is his priority, but he doesn’t want to choose between people and his loved ones as Kiritsugu did, he wants to catch them all and try to save everyone. He is only forced to compromise his ideals during his duel with Saber Alter, but she was a Servant, he had no idea she was nothing more than a ghost. Actually, the only time he makes an actual choice between someone who lives and someone who dies is at the end. He unconsciously blurts out to Illya that he wants to live. It was more a choice between HIS life and someone else’s. LunarMoon said: Angra Mainyu was killed and tortured by a collection of villagers from several millennia ago. What did the innocent civilians, who Dark Sakura killed, have to do with that event? They had no more a hand in it than someone such as Rin did, and yet Shirou interpreted what Sakura did to Rin in one of the bad ends as somehow crossing the line, after she had done the same to the friends and family of others. Nope. Hollow/Ataraxia reveals that everyone is at fault of his existence as universal curse, not just the villagers. They just got the ball rolling. EVERYONE. He will continue to exist (against his will, poor guy) as long as humanity exists. You see, humanity is shitty and evil like that in wanting an ultimate scapegoat to feel better about themselves. Furthermore, what ‘civilians’ Dark Sakura killed? Kotomine? True Assassin? Zouken? Shinji? That’s right Dark Sakura didn’t kill civilians, she killed the antagonists. Go read CM about darkening and the Shadow if it’s not clear. Shadow = the Grail need to eat for Angra Mainyu’s birth projected by Sakura unconscious while she’s asleep. She’s not aware of it at all. It’s the need of the Grail to get more substance using her body as a puppet. The only one she somewhat directly killed was Gilgamesh which caused her to ‘awake’ and realize what was happening. After that she refused to sleep to stop herself and lo, she tried to confront Zouken on her own to end this BS. Zouken set her up to kill Shinji. Dark Sakura = snapped Sakura that ONLY appears at the end days, darkened (like Arturia and Herakles). She didn’t kill anyone but bad guys aside of bad ends. Even Kotomine explains it (in his conversations with Shirou and then Sakura). Shadow =/= Sakura (basically, it’s Grail kun). Dark Sakura = Sakura. Dark Sakura =/= Shadow. Sakura just blamed herself for those deaths in the manner she keeps blaming herself for the worms. It's the typical result of someone who lived in constant domestic abuse. Shirou knew she needed him to keep her happiness. LunarMoon said: That always bothered me, especially since HF Shirou had the nerve to act as if he was bearing the cross by allowing the death of other peoples’ loved ones. I’m sure the friends and family of her victims would have a lot to say about Shirou’s “sacrifice.” Nobody cares about people who don’t appear in the VN. Shirou didn’t know them anyway. Also re-read HF, you completely missed a lot of points, huh. LunarMoon said: None of the masses were faceless, as they had loved ones and homes to go back to as well. Ultimately, HF Shirou was willing to do anything in order to save Sakura, whether it meant aborting the birth of Angra Mainyu, or allowing “The Shadow” to continue killing innocent people. Oh what are their names, ah? Yeah, they were faceless because we don’t see them and Shirou doesn’t know them. The only ones who got a bit of characterization was the gang who wanted to rape Sakura. Good riddance. It was typical choice of the person I love vs 100 strangers who got nothing to do with me. Any sane person chooses the loved one. Kiritsugu didn’t and left him broken, consumed by despair and regrets. Anyway, that’s pretty bullshit portrayal of HF Shirou you got there. After Shirou finds out the facts, Sakura isn’t killing anyone anymore. Because she found out the facts as well and was suppressing the Shadow by not sleeping again (did you conveniently forget this?). Dark Sakura wasn’t the Shadow, the only real targets she had were the bad guys (Kotomine, Zouken, True Assassin) and those she loved after she told them to run (more of this in HA, how love is twisted by the taint to make someone out of love by hurting them). She wanted to stop the birth of Angra Mainyu as well (or did you forget her broadcast?), but she got sidetracked with her duel with Rin. |
ThessApr 23, 2012 11:11 AM
Apr 23, 2012 11:06 AM
#284
Leon-Gun said: @LunarMoon: Lancer actually was thinking about it already but he didn't know for sure Saber truly had such an obliterating Noble Phantasm (more like, he knew she had Excalibur, just not that Excalibur was a bloody A++ Anti-Fortress attack). Honestly Saber can sometimes be uptight to a fault but she would have seen the need to use it without Kiritsugu having to boot into the conversation. Kiritsugu's main purpose with his call was merely to make Lancer's choice 100% certain and to ensure Caster was released exactly where he wanted it so Excalibur could be released at full strength. One of the main reasons Arturia never uses Excalibur is because it can, oh I don't know, burn entire city blocks off the face of the Earth. If Caster hadn't been positioned where he was the Excalibur blast could have potentially hit civilian property. Was this specifically stated in the novel? By the time Kiritsugu even contacted Waver, Ionian Hetairoi was about to collapse, leaving little time before Caster reached the shore. There was no evidence that either Saber or Lancer would have recognized the severity of the threat in time, especially when Lancer had no way of knowing that Saber's noble phantasm was anything more than a far more common Anti-Unit. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan! |
Apr 23, 2012 11:19 AM
#285
Montrovant1488 said: ataraxial said: Montrovant1488 said: Kiritsugu = 2 Saber = 0 I think everyone's favourite blond bitch will get pwned badly. What are you talking about? Since they don't see eye to eye, have different ideals, etc. In my book Kiritsugu is winning (not the Holy Cum War, but the most bad ass character of this not-too-cool show). Kiritsugu won that argument although, he did look at Saber with dick-slapping intent. Now as for my 2-0 score it refers to the times Kiritsugu has pwned Saber or her honor, the first one was in the first season (can't quite remember the event) now this one, taking away from her this "knightly" fight and that argument that left Saber's hand in need of something of phallic nature. As Saber was about to speak her thoughts, she suddenly found that her own voice was lower and calmer than she thought it would be. She had just realized that her complicated emotions towards Kiritsugu was no longer her previous anger, but had to changed to some kind of pity. That’s right; maybe he is a man that should be pitied. Isn’t he himself that needed salvation, not this world? “– Emiya Kiritsugu, I don’t know what kind of betrayal you were subjected to in the past and why you despaired. But that rage, that lament, are undoubtedly things that those who pursued justice possesses. Kiritsugu, in your youth you should have wanted to be ‘a hero of justice’. You should have believed in and wanted to become a hero who saves the world more than anyone else – isn’t that so?” Until now, the only attitudes Kiritsugu had shown to Saber were complete ignorance and cold scorn. But now, Kiritsugu, having heard Saber’s quiet questioning – the eyes that he fixed on his Servant showed other emotions for the first time. It was a rage seemingly close to boiling over. Nope. Try again. Saber got the last word and Kiritsugu was incredibly butthurt. She pitied the guy because she had him figured out. @BloodRequiem: Avalon isn't afterlife. It's just the fairy world. Slicer22 said: In the true end of HF he might of ended up with Sakura but once again the 2nd grail women got a pretty crappy end sacrifing herself to save Shirou and the normal end of HF gives no mention of her just that Sakura sort of went a little crazy forever waiting for someone who would not come back. I really do wish they gave an ending where Shirou and Ilya ended up really living together as brother and sister, i know she got the semi happy end in fate living with Taiga but that was a rather small ending. I wish they had given Ilya a route it did not even have to be a romantic one a brother and sister one would of been great as well. It just sucks that Ilya always seems to get stuck with the sucky end in stay night, with her mum and dad gone and all the crap she went through after you would think they would of gave her something. Oh man, Illya is my favorite female character in FSN VN (although I like Bazett more thanks to Ataraxia), but as much as I want her to live longer, I think her conclusion in HF was happier than Fate. Shirou and Illya acknowledged themselves as family in HF. She completed the Heaven's Feel ritual (which she wanted to do) and actually fixed a bit of the mess her family brought (they did summon Avenger lol). She seems pretty content with the outcome. We don't even know if she dies-dies. Her ending in Berserker's F/UC path is similar, she goes to the other side (the Root) and closes the door. So in a sense her arc is complete. Leysritt in F/UC manages to save both Illya and Sakura. Obviously, she's the hero we deserve. |
ThessApr 23, 2012 11:36 AM
Apr 23, 2012 11:52 AM
#286
I think it’s worth adding that Saber, for all of her tendency towards ill fortune, is actually relatively lucky, in that Avalon is really only for her and a few British monarchs. The vast majority of combatants who practice her code of chivalry are more likely to end up impaled on a stake like Lancer or as one of the young men that Kiritsugu mentioned, who ride off to battle, intent on gaining honor, or on upholding chivalry, only to die pointlessly in a bloody war. You may disagree with the character, but no one has actually been able to refute Kiritsugu’s argument. Chivalry, as practiced by Saber and Lancer, is a code that glorifies bloodshed. Except it wasn’t? Kiritsugu betrayed his ideals when he became a hard stone cold killer; he also betrayed his loved ones. Archer didn’t regret the path he took (trying to save everyone) before he was messed up as a Counter Guardian. He wasn’t wrong in taking it (he ignores of course who Kiritsugu really was). You’re also forgetting that, aside of HF resolution that fixes him a bit, Shirou’s an empty man like Kotomine, with a distortion that only allowed him to find happiness in other people’s salvation (or misfortune in Kirei’s place). Are you arguing that Archer’s ideals weren’t borrowed from Kiritsugu? It was continuously stated throughout the route that Shirou’s ideals were a mirror of Kiritsugu’s, instead of actually being his own. Saving everyone was an impossible and naïve task, which is something that Kiritsugu told him in early childhood, and that UBW Shirou was eventually forced to accept. Exactly, which portion of Kiritsugu’s philosophy do you disagree with, by the way? Shadow = the Grail need to eat for Angra Mainyu’s birth projected by Sakura unconscious while she’s asleep. She’s not aware of it at all. It’s the need of the Grail to get more substance using her body as a puppet. The only one she somewhat directly killed was Gilgamesh which caused her to ‘awake’ and realize what was happening. After that she refused to sleep to stop herself and lo, she tried to confront Zouken on her own to end this BS. Zouken set her up to kill Shinji. Even Kotomine explains it (in his conversations with Shirou and then Sakura). Shadow =/= Sakura (basically, it’s Grail kun). Dark Sakura = Sakura. Dark Sakura =/= Shadow. What difference does it make whether Sakura was consciously acting as the shadow, or whether the Grail was merely incarnating through her body? Does a lack of ill intent on Sakura’s part somehow make her less of a threat? Oh what are their names, ah? Yeah, they were faceless because we don’t see them and Shirou doesn’t know them. The only ones who got a bit of characterization was the gang who wanted to rape Sakura. Good riddance. It was typical choice of the person I love vs 100 strangers who got nothing to do with me. Any sane person chooses the loved one. Kiritsugu didn’t and left him broken, consumed by despair and regrets. Caster must have been a fine fellow since the children that he killed didn’t get any characterization. Thess said: Until now, the only attitudes Kiritsugu had shown to Saber were complete ignorance and cold scorn. But now, Kiritsugu, having heard Saber’s quiet questioning – the eyes that he fixed on his Servant showed other emotions for the first time. It was a rage seemingly close to boiling over. Nope. Try again. Saber got the last word and Kiritsugu was incredibly butthurt. She pitied the guy because she had him figured out. Kiritsugu spoke the decision in his heart with such a calmness and evenness that even Saber could not find any words to reply to him. Even if his method and path were unendurably evil – his faith in seeking the Holy Grail was pure and selfless. She had to admit that if there was a Master in the war worthy of obtaining the Holy Grail, then he would undoubtedly be Emiya Kiritsugu. |
LunarMoonApr 23, 2012 12:12 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan! |
Apr 23, 2012 12:36 PM
#287
Apr 23, 2012 12:54 PM
#288
You know LunarMoon, it seems to me like you believed Zouken's words to the letter. Zouken even laughs at his deviousness when he thinks he managed to convince Shirou that Shadow=Sakura. It wasn't, in fact... ...Zouken actually had partial control over the Shadow and even conducted a lot of the killing the Shadow did by choosing where it spawned and how. The one time he gets scared of it is because the Shadow reacted to Sakura's unconcious despair and appeared at a moment where Zouken couldn't move away so he was at mortal peril of being eaten along with everyone else. At all other points Zouken plays the Shadow like a fiddle and is responsible for ALL of it's murders. Who do you blame for a murder, the gun or the guy who used the gun? It's as simple as that. As for Archer, he's a little like Kiritsugu, I give you that. But the path to get there was different.. let alone the fact Archer had many MANY reasons to be a cynic asshole... ...One of them being the fact he was set up, acussed of starting a war himself, and sentenced to death by the very people he saved. Kiritsugu hates the glorification of Heroes because he believes Heroes promote endless sacrifice and bloodshed. Archer hates himself for believing the world was worthy of saving and for believing Guardian Forces actually did good for mankind. Kiritsugu was always a fool who believed in fairy tales to the end, while Archer was a cynic who wanted to die. And Kirei hated Kiritsugu's guts. He actually likes Shirou, and SHirou likes Kirei, something he only ever admits once. Let's just put it this way. A lot of things in Fate are not clear cut as they first seem, and you make a mistake if you believe everyone's word letter by letter. The one person who always twists the truth in Fate/Stay Night is Zouken and for some reason a lot of people who hate Heaven's Feel do so under the irrational pretense that Zouken's words are all right. No, he outright lies and plays with words, he does it even more than Kirei. At least Kirei will always answer any question truthfully, Zouken can outright lie to your face. |
Leon-GunApr 23, 2012 1:09 PM
Apr 23, 2012 3:14 PM
#289
Apr 23, 2012 3:54 PM
#290
Apr 23, 2012 6:03 PM
#291
belatkuro said: And this is why Kiritsugu is my favorite character in Fate/Zero. yep |
Apr 23, 2012 9:43 PM
#293
I new things would get dark here as soon as the episode opened with Sola-ui getting her arm cut off and Kayneth shooting Risei dead. What followed was one of the most engrossing anime episodes I believe I've ever seen. I love it when an episode totally turns what you thought you knew about a character on it's head. I almost forgot how cold and ruthless a character Kiritsugu was painted to be in Heaven's Feel but this reminded me all right. During the course of my re-watch of the first season I paid careful attention to him and thought he was turning out to be a much better character than I originally thought. This episode proved me right. I can't say I agree or approve of Kiritsugu's methods, in fact I'm definitely siding more with Saber here, but I can't argue that he nailed a few things at the end there. What's compelling about this is that the writing isn't siding with either character viewpoint, it feels as though both sides were presented at the end and the viewer can make what they will of it. Brilliant writing. What's also interesting is how much of a contrast Kiritsugu is to Shirou from Fate/stay and the latter persons image of him. And, then you add Rin's distorted image of Tokiomi and you have a sort of commentary of how different "parents" can be from our "rose tinted" image of them. Both of these two are ultimately undeniably influenced by both of their fathers in Fate/stay. As for Lancer, I thought it was once again great writing to end him the way the series did. It's depressing as shit, but it ultimately showed a downside to "honor" and, well, the scene of him cursing everyone (including Saber and Iri who had no idea of Kiritsugu's "plan".) was beyond powerful. His hate was incredibly well portrayed. And, finally, the short scene with Kirei just shows him going further down the "dark" path. It'll be interesting when he and Kiritsugu eventually clash. |
"Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
Apr 23, 2012 10:48 PM
#294
ataraxial said: BloodRequiem said: cu chulainn is the epitome of a heroic spirit with no worldly constraints while diarmuid on the other hand allows himself to be burdened by the shame in his past life the anime adaptations really didnt do cu chulainn justice in terms of awesomeness hes even more GAR than archer I don't see anything wrong with burdening the shames of a previous life, especially when we have Saber running around being Saber. Although it is true that Studio DEEN's adapatation of FSN was subpar in every way including the portrayal of Lancer. Moekou said: Anyways, it's indeed highly debatable in terms of actions during the war who was the greater lancer. However, in terms of mythology, Cu Chulainn may be the single most famous Irish hero that kids strive to grow up to be like (Angela's Ashes!), and comparable to Hercules, while unfortunately Diarmuid is not only lesser known, but often only known for being that guy that slept with his lord's wife and then gut gutted by a pig. Some sources like Wikipedia back when Fate/Zero first came out barely had anything on him and don't even bother mentioning any of his esteem as a warrior (he WAS a great one but it's been overshadowed by the whole lovers triangle thing, which is why he is so desperate to try to overcome it here). I have heard Nasu once actually use them to demonstrate the power of territory. In Nasuverse, if they fight in this this Grail War Diarmuid can win since neither are well known and Diarmuid is portrayed as highly skilled in this series, but if they were fighting in Ireland, Cu Chulainn would almost certainly be the victor, due to how much more he's recognized as the forefront Irish champion. Anyways, in Unlimited Codes game they meet and Diarmuid is highly honored to meet Cu Chulainn and his win quote is ""It was an unbelievable honour to have a bout with the Prince of Light... I will cherish this memory deeply."" That's really interesting to know. I agree that Cu Chulainn is much more well-known and everything, which is a plus for him. As far as what we've seen in the Nasuverse though (i.e. within the Fuyuki City Grail War), Diarmuid still seems a lot more capable and badass. Two spears > one spear. If Diarmuid and Cu Chulainn places were reversed, Cu Chulainn would have stabbed Kiritsugu and Kayneth dead before succumbing to his wounds, thats how badass he is. |
The Art of Eight |
Apr 23, 2012 11:10 PM
#295
Whoa, Kyaneth actually smiling. Didn't think that he would actually give up being a Master. Kiritsugu is definitely someone i don't want to mess with. All in all a pretty awesome episode. |
Apr 23, 2012 11:15 PM
#296
OMG, the best episode so far This is going to be the anime of the season.. BY FAR! |
Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
Apr 23, 2012 11:49 PM
#297
dankickyou said: Considering he already did it in UBW, yeah. Also, Cu'Chulainn may only have one spear but his spear can rape reality to ensure the death of the opponent and even destroy entire armies single-handedly. Would you rather have 2 spears that can only take out 1-2 enemies at a time or 1 spear that can wipe out a hundreds of soldiers?If Diarmuid and Cu Chulainn places were reversed, Cu Chulainn would have stabbed Kiritsugu and Kayneth dead before succumbing to his wounds, thats how badass he is. |
Apr 24, 2012 12:51 AM
#298
Leon-Gun said: dankickyou said: Considering he already did it in UBW, yeah. Also, Cu'Chulainn may only have one spear but his spear can rape reality to ensure the death of the opponent and even destroy entire armies single-handedly. Would you rather have 2 spears that can only take out 1-2 enemies at a time or 1 spear that can wipe out a hundreds of soldiers?If Diarmuid and Cu Chulainn places were reversed, Cu Chulainn would have stabbed Kiritsugu and Kayneth dead before succumbing to his wounds, thats how badass he is. not to mention those runes he can use for boosts, ability to escape from disadvantageous situations and the fact that he can spam gae bolg 7 times in a row |
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
Apr 24, 2012 1:11 AM
#299
Leon-Gun said: dankickyou said: Considering he already did it in UBW, yeah. Also, Cu'Chulainn may only have one spear but his spear can rape reality to ensure the death of the opponent and even destroy entire armies single-handedly. Would you rather have 2 spears that can only take out 1-2 enemies at a time or 1 spear that can wipe out a hundreds of soldiers?If Diarmuid and Cu Chulainn places were reversed, Cu Chulainn would have stabbed Kiritsugu and Kayneth dead before succumbing to his wounds, thats how badass he is. Seriously, if Cu chulainn wasnt being nerfed by the plot he would be one of the most dangerous Servants since one of the few ways to survive Gae Bolg probability manipulation is to literally have Plot Armor. |
The Art of Eight |
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