| uh i haven't watched that video in a while and i'm not going to rewatch it because the guys a loser but i do think he brought up the detail of anime from what i can remember from a while ago and i think anime is very strong in that department, yes the character is only moving his mouth, BUT JUST LOOK AT THE DETAIL OF HIS FUCKING HAIR! you know? i think western and eastern animation have different priorities i suppose. |
| Flash animation is very limited and looks crappy IMO. I'd rather watch this any day of the week. |
| Find me a better flash fight scene. It doesn't matter. It's the look that can't be replicated. |
Onibokusu said: You are aware you're comparing human movement to a pony, right? Humans have more movable joints than ponies do (except in the legs, which is the only thing wrong with My Little Pony pony anatomy). You are aware you're comparing human hair to horse/pony hair, right? Human hair and pony hair work in completely different ways. Seriously, go and ride a horse and/or pony. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KXf3kwjKQ0 Where's your excuses now? :D But seriously, animals or no, I remember Tiny Toons and Animaniacs having leagues better animation than that Flash crap. Using 'they're animals' as an excuse to justify poor flash animation is weak. |
TitanXLJun 1, 2011 12:12 AM
| MLP is cheaply made flash animation and certainly not a paragon of animation quality. It's wobbling vectors. If you compare that to say Panty & Stocking on the same benchmarks then maybe you have some comparison, since their creation methods are more similar. It still is irrelevant to the video's criticisms. I know you're just trying to manufacture attention to MLP so please just stop... you made your point. |
 I am a banana. |
ophiucha said: ...because those mediums use motion capture of live actors. Admittedly, rotoscoping from real and cg sources is used in a lot of hand drawn animation as well... but the criticisms about how much motion a character has are already debunked in previous posts. That really doesn't mean a whole lot, and is an outdated inaccurate measure that really only applies to traditional hand drawn animation. The amount of motion in the scene really doesn't reflect how technically challenging it was to achieve.Though it is a gorgeous scene and well directed, even then the animation wouldn't win any awards when compared to even the most mediocre of video games or CG productions. |
I am a banana. |
| I just wanted to debunk the elements mentioned, since the amount of motion is completely irrelevant in CG/games. I thought the rest of your post made good points, and there certainly is a lot of obviously great and horrible animation, most of the former using improvised techniques and new technologies that really change how we measure that~ |
I am a banana. |
| Disney productions have many more inbetweens so even the most minor actions will be animated with a good amount of frames. The Sword and the Stranger video is running almost only on keys at some points so it gets pretty choppy at points. Actually it's not in many Japanese animators' philosophies to adopt the "Disney" look...a school of animation was "founded" based on an entirely different principle, which is the type of animation I prefer (Kanada). One thing I appreciate about Disney is expressions/gestures, since they really put the effort into animating them. I think the characters are very "animator-friendly." My problem (opinion) with Disney is the design and shape language...I just don't think any of it looks cool or interesting. This is very subjective, of course, and is not animation-relevant. Same thing with the action, composition and direction. saka said: MLP is cheaply made flash animation and certainly not a paragon of animation quality. It's wobbling vectors. If you compare that to say Panty & Stocking on the same benchmarks then maybe you have some comparison, since their creation methods are more similar. It still is irrelevant to the video's criticisms. I know you're just trying to manufacture attention to MLP so please just stop... you made your point. Yeah but MLP doesn't have this (animation starts at 0:57): |
FuiJun 1, 2011 2:00 AM
| well, other than the transformation sequences~ P&S uses a lot of modeled CG too, so it's kind of muddled.... but I can't really think of any other anime examples that were similar to MLP.... P&S obviously beats MLP on any technical measure anyway, but these examples aren't really relevant to the op's vid on technical qualities since the methods in which they were made were very different. P&S is also emulating western style and methods ala cartoon network so it's kind of a unique hybrid. |
I am a banana. |
| Lets swap anime and american cartoons budgets around and lets see what happens. |
fuck everything and rumble |
| He does make a good point about the technical movement, however I hardly think thats what people look for when watching animation. He's pretty much the minority. |
| Sometimes when the background is static, it actually looks better than when they move around in an 'unnatural' way (such as rocking back and forth). What I find annoying as well, is the way they draw mouths, especially when you see them from the side. This doesn't make any sense: And neither does this: |
Mr. Wonsworth, you may NOT eat my scones! |
| You simply CAN'T generalize! IMO Japanese animation has got to have some of the most fantastic hand-drawing style I've ever seen, just look at the oh so ever popular Myiazaki, the attention to detail, colorful and plentiful backgrounds, constant and realistic movement? That's just a popular example and budget does play a huge role in here, and there's so much more. I must agree though, 95% of what is released today is trash. The thing is that there are studios out there that are making those 5% worth it. |
VeethornJun 1, 2011 4:53 AM
 |
| Okay, this guy is awesome! |
| |
Treekodar said: This doesn't make any sense: And neither does this: That's a classic example of lazy animation. It doesn't require the animation team to animate a character's jaw, which is what generally happens in the real world (unless you're a trained ventriloquist). |
| That's just drawing style really. The creation of form with a minimal amount of lines is not a new idea, and isn't somehow easier than drawing the line a little farther left. It's style and good artistic design, not unlike what you'll see if you flip open any comic book. If artists drew every crack and detail, it would not look like anime anymore. Art done like this is a trademark of art done by humans that has intrinsic value is difficult for computers to emulate (and various CG systems do in fact try). For example some art by Roy Lichtenstein, whose art has been very influential in American comics and media: Look! The lines around her eyes are incomplete! Her nose is just a bump and a comma with a couple lines on it! That's essentially what you're saying, yet we recognize the features of a face anyway. There are lots of tasteful and psychological reasons why things are drawn that way. |
sakaJun 1, 2011 10:48 AM
I am a banana. |
saka said: For example some art by Roy Lichtenstein, whose art has been very influential in American comics and media: Look! The lines around her eyes are incomplete! Her nose is just a bump and a comma with a couple lines on it! That's essentially what you're saying, yet we recognize the features of a face anyway. There are lots of tasteful and psychological reasons why things are drawn that way. Yes, I recognize that, but I do not recognize the examples I posted. To me, it looks like a hole in the chin, not a mouth. It's nowhere near as annoying as how they do noses though, with a line or two and some shadow (this is also done in Baccano! but there it looks a lot better compared to, say, Birdy). |
TreekodarJun 1, 2011 10:59 AM
| Mr. Wonsworth, you may NOT eat my scones! |
| All in all I doubt anyone is watching anime for the animation. |
IDex said: You're right... It's for the boobs and plot!All in all I doubt anyone is watching anime for the animation. |
  |
| Agreed. Disney can't compete with japanese-drawn boobs. Treekodar said: That's all very subjective. You just think it looks better. Especially when animators use squash and stretch the characters take on shapes that real humans would not achieve. Plus, it's not like the tricks you mentioned are exclusive to japan.Yes, I recognize that, but I do not recognize the examples I posted. To me, it looks like a hole in the chin, not a mouth. It's nowhere near as annoying as how they do noses though, with a line or two and some shadow (this is also done in Baccano! but there it looks a lot better compared to, say, Birdy).     I didn't have to look very hard for examples, since they're everywhere. It's just stylistic discretion, and there are plenty of series with art direction and animation I hate but I still really enjoy the series themselves. It takes all kinds. |
sakaJun 1, 2011 12:46 PM
I am a banana. |
| You're very correct that it's subjective. For the most part it's a non-issue (it certainly won't be a make a break deal), but every now and then this happens while I watch anime: |
| Mr. Wonsworth, you may NOT eat my scones! |
| It's not an error... making two lines and inking and coloring them separately is more difficult, not less. It's done intentionally by the animator. I can think of plenty worse examples where the drawings themselves are crap, or drawn hurriedly. Some of the closeups of faces in Claymore for example are hideous. I can still enjoy the work though, even if I don't like how the animators drew them. |
sakaJun 1, 2011 2:44 PM
I am a banana. |
Fui said: bro, you're the one criticizing people for making one-sided comparisons, way to contradict yourself.Flash animation is very limited and looks crappy IMO. I'd rather watch this any day of the week. |
Fui said: Think I'll rewatch all the action scenes right now. Man the music is so epic.Flash animation is very limited and looks crappy IMO. I'd rather watch this any day of the week. |
saka said: I can think of plenty worse examples where the drawings themselves are crap, or drawn hurriedly. Some of the closeups of faces in Claymore for example are hideous. I can still enjoy the work though, even if I don't like how the animators drew them. Claymore wasn't a great anime in the first place, but I'd have to disagree with you when it comes to the face close-ups. The way the characters were drawn in Claymore was something I liked about it. I have gotten used to the extremely simplistic noses in a majority of anime, as was posted by Treekodar, but they still don't make any sense. I believe in the Dragon Ball anime, a joke was made about Krillin's lack of a nose. He just... Doesn't have one, at all. Everyone else does, except for Krillin. Obviously it's a character design to set Krillin apart from other characters, but it wasn't a sign of laziness. These days, however, I'd be hard pressed to find proper noses in anime. It's like Krillin, everywhere. |
CottonCandyLover said: Fui said: bro, you're the one criticizing people for making one-sided comparisons, way to contradict yourself.Flash animation is very limited and looks crappy IMO. I'd rather watch this any day of the week. That's the point. It's secretly ironic. Treekodar said: Sometimes when the background is static, it actually looks better than when they move around in an 'unnatural' way (such as rocking back and forth). What I find annoying as well, is the way they draw mouths, especially when you see them from the side. This doesn't make any sense: And neither does this: These and the ones you selected later are design choices. You see it in any stylized artform. I don't think anime viewers even understand why they are attracted to anime a lot of the time. Sure call this cherry-picking or whatever but I want you to just consider the concept. Anatomically correct =/= better IMO. Getting a little off-topic here... |
FuiJun 1, 2011 8:33 PM
Fui said: Would be a good topic, I don't think there's actually one for this.I don't think anime viewers even understand why they are attracted to anime a lot of the time. I myself never really thought about this. And now it's kind of late for me to do so (since I'm getting rather bored at anime in general). But the distinctively large eyes and spiky hair styles (even for the girls with long hairs, as it's not really spiky, but they do seem to group together to form some anyways), perhaps because it's just so "anatomically incorrect" that was what got us into it. A line for a nose? 2 lines for a mouth? Disproportionate boobs on girls? Elaborate dresses you really don't see often at all in reality? (Even at some fashion show?) Hmm. |
| incongruity is interesting... same idea that drives most entertainment and advertising. |
I am a banana. |
Fui said: These and the ones you selected later are design choices. You see it in any stylized artform. True, but I just can't shake the feeling that actually drawing a nose would make it easier to tell characters apart. Perhaps if they gave each character their own nose (art wise) they wouldn't have to make those ridiculous hairstyles nor the 50% face 50% eyes proportions. But on the other hand, if they went too far with it - it wouldn't really look like the anime I've come to know and love. Hmm, I dunno, it just feels like there's a well of opportunities they can tap into, but are too scared to do so, fearing it would divert too much from the 'classic' anime. |
| Mr. Wonsworth, you may NOT eat my scones! |
Treekodar said: Fui said: These and the ones you selected later are design choices. You see it in any stylized artform. True, but I just can't shake the feeling that actually drawing a nose would make it easier to tell characters apart. Perhaps if they gave each character their own nose (art wise) they wouldn't have to make those ridiculous hairstyles nor the 50% face 50% eyes proportions. But on the other hand, if they went too far with it - it wouldn't really look like the anime I've come to know and love. Hmm, I dunno, it just feels like there's a well of opportunities they can tap into, but are too scared to do so, fearing it would divert too much from the 'classic' anime. I've seen a lot of illustrators try to stick more realistic features on anime...the level of success varies. Also liking =/= impressed by. But of course you could be right about there possibly being better options. Designing something new and making it appealing is a skill IMO. In fact I'd almost venture to say it's a talent, even though I don't even believe in talent. I think that's why I appreciate "moeshit," as many trolls like to call it, because I think it's difficult it is to come up with that stuff. By coming up with I mean developing a new look that people are drawn towards, not the generic reused anime look, if you know what I mean. Tachii said: Fui said: Would be a good topic, I don't think there's actually one for this.I don't think anime viewers even understand why they are attracted to anime a lot of the time. I myself never really thought about this. And now it's kind of late for me to do so (since I'm getting rather bored at anime in general). But the distinctively large eyes and spiky hair styles (even for the girls with long hairs, as it's not really spiky, but they do seem to group together to form some anyways), perhaps because it's just so "anatomically incorrect" that was what got us into it. A line for a nose? 2 lines for a mouth? Disproportionate boobs on girls? Elaborate dresses you really don't see often at all in reality? (Even at some fashion show?) Hmm. It's weird and a lot of the features "don't make any sense" but ultimately you just need to ask yourself if it reads, if it works, and if you like it. How we got there is something I don't know, and I probably won't spend time finding out (although it could be very interesting to think about). There's just too much to think about already at since visual interest can come in many different forms. I think good animators make this a priority, and their interpretation of design is a big reason why I prefer anime. |
KeiranShikari said: Lets swap anime and american cartoons budgets around and lets see what happens. This reminds me of a quote from the Revolutionary Girl Utena creator. They said they visited America once and saw a billboard for Powerpuff Girls. When he found out how much it took to make that show, they were shocked and said "It cost that much and it looks like THAT?" Does make you wonder if PPG is considered 'a lot' what those funds could do in the hands of capable animators. |
Treekodar said: Fui said: These and the ones you selected later are design choices. You see it in any stylized artform. True, but I just can't shake the feeling that actually drawing a nose would make it easier to tell characters apart. Perhaps if they gave each character their own nose (art wise) they wouldn't have to make those ridiculous hairstyles nor the 50% face 50% eyes proportions. But on the other hand, if they went too far with it - it wouldn't really look like the anime I've come to know and love. Hmm, I dunno, it just feels like there's a well of opportunities they can tap into, but are too scared to do so, fearing it would divert too much from the 'classic' anime. The overly huge eye ratio is mostly stupid design from VN's and moe silly anime with little girls saying "urusai". Ok there are other too but they are more discreet. It gets annoying when is something like this. But there are as much anime with more normal eye ratio and different style and eyes between characters that are quite popular too. Anime have long evolved in lots of different artwork from the stupid design still prevailing in VN's. |
Fui said: I think that's why I appreciate "moeshit," as many trolls like to call it, because I think it's difficult to come up with that stuff. By coming up with I mean developing a new look that people are drawn towards, not the generic reused anime look, if you know what I mean. True, but it still seems like they're keeping themselves tied down by profit, meaning that they want it to appeal to as many as possible (obviously, they're a company after all), and that's why they re-use stuff that's popular to begin with (those that succeed make their re-used anime seem 'fresh'). tigermaskV said: Westen animation sucks it relies to much on CGI Most of the CGI I've seen looks like it's in an experimental phase more than anything else, they need to learn how to use it properly (Appleseed for example, while it doesn't look like the best I've seen, it certainly isn't the worst either). AnnoKano said: I think most people here are confusing animation with art style[...] Nah, I brought in art style to spark a debate. I did not find it needed to create an entirely new topic about art style when you can just post about it here. |
| Mr. Wonsworth, you may NOT eat my scones! |
Onibokusu said: TitanXL said: "It cost that much and it looks like THAT?" Does make you wonder if PPG is considered 'a lot' what those funds could do in the hands of capable animators. I don't know where you've been, but last time I checked PowerPuff Girls was a quality American Animation. When I was 10, I thought so too. Looking back, though. Yeesh. Nostalgia can be very powerful. It hasn't aged well at all. |
| Meh, i don't care. Even if the quality isn't always top notch and doesn't resemble human like movements and those characters stand still for seconds, there are other much more important things. If the story, characters, atmosphere, development sucks, the good animation won't save anything. I don't care about those things. I don't watch anime because of the animation. And i'm not blind for sure. Some people really look for something to complain about. Is it really that important? For me at least if everything is drawn right, i won't complain. |
| a lot of people seem to keep equating good animation with abundance of movement, and while that is one element of good animation it is not the whole. There is a lot of attention to detail even on the still frames, and attention to the atmosphere and flow of each show. the guy in the vid acknowledges that everybody uses the same tricks whether it's japan or sweden, but he's pointing out that even in the biggest blockbuster anime movies he still sees too much partial animation. I can certainly understand his frustration there, but he has to understand that even those "big" anime films have tiny budgets and staff compared to a Disney film. Disney itself is moving away from that production framework. By the timing of his vid, I think what spurred the video in the first place was probably the Eva movies, which despite being very high budget by japan's standards do still use partial animation in a good chunk of shots (maybe 1/3 is partial or CG by my estimation). I think this was a conscious choice though, just because the original abused still frames and partial animation so much that turning it into bouncy disney work would actually disrupt it. I do understand his criticisms and frustrations at all the partial animation and panning (especially since japan has so many small studios), but there is still a huge amount of full animation in the bigger titles and mixing in partial animation doesn't really detract from the series as a whole. It really just boils down to whether you notice it or not, and nothing is perfect. I like to think that the BluRay/DVD sales of big titles like Eva are encouraging studios to make more really massive titles, but really there is no way around small studios not wanting to risk years of development and money on a single release. |
I am a banana. |
AnnoKano said: I think most people here are confusing animation with art style; the two are related but are actually quite different. Just because something has a nice art style does not make it well animated, and likewise something with an unattractive art style can still be well animated. A recent title that I would say demonstrates the difference is Madoka- that features quite a distinctive style that many people like. However, the quality of the animation in Madoka is quite poor, and if inspected closely you can see attempts by the animation studio to cut costs; things like using unneccesary long distant shots (to avoid having to draw mouth movements) and drawing the characters walking from the hips upward. The quality of animation in anime varies immensely. You've got really well animated stuff like FLCL and the Ghibli movies, and on the other you've got stuff like Shounen that tend to have really bad animation. Western productions on the whole have better animation, however given that much less Western animation is produced (and almost all of that is high budget) it isn't too surprising that the quality is improved. We know we've completely off-topic for 2 pages now. Animation is relative. What is good animation? Having a high frame count running on 1's? Character consistency? What about composition, direction and choreography? How about visual interest? How about the key frames themselves? You can't just say "it's smoother so it's better animated." Or "they animated more things moving so it's better animated." If you looked at what most people find important (consistency and smoothness), Flash animation would technically come out on top. Animation quality is ultimately subjective, because the goals of the animators are different. For that reason it doesn't sit well with me when people say "x is better animated than y." I also don't think cartoons are well animated at all. Most of the stuff on CN is flash, and is primarily dull 2D pans. The blockbuster film productions obviously have more consistency and a higher frame count than any TV series. The animation "quality" will be better. @Treedokar I don't think that's true for certain studios. For example Kyoto Animation really loves what they do. You can see it in the quality of their work, and in the personal artwork of some of the animators. They don't outsource anything either, which is extremely rare in Japanese animation. It is true that many studios will just do it for profit, though, and I can't understand how they manage to sell so well (like Infinite Stratos, for instance...). |
| You're quoting the wrong person, just letting you know. I understand what you're saying and from a technical standpoint something with more fluid motion and more frames is "better animated." But that doesn't really mean much to me. How the action is conveyed is much more important IMO, whether or not it's considered "good animation" or not. |
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