| Yeah, he does make a point. And one that is true. Japanese animation lacks that "lifelike movement" most of the time, but unless you are an animator, a huge critic, or someone who is very big animation enthusiast, it shouldn't really matter. Also, aside from Evangelion, his only rant was on weeaboos and animation, not the quality of the story, or the like. It wasnt as if he was targeting the entire anime fanbase anyways. |
jpem said: I use to follow this law, but stating arbitrary statistics to make a point is pretty lame.ichigo03 said: Anime puts QUANTITY ahead of QUALITY, every year there are only about 1 - 3 anime that are Really good, despite the fact that every year there are more than 100 new anime. no kidding Anyways, I feel this thread would be more interesting if it was a general topic to point out general flaws we find in most animes out there (which is what the video is about yes?). The point that mostly everything in crap stands in everything so there's no point really to exclude anime as something special. |
| He got some great points there yes. Anime is often inferior when you think about the animation but the stories behind are often very good. I would watch a bad animation because of the story not the animation. I liked his laugh at the end. mhahaha |
"My happiness comes from the kindness of those around me" |
| This guy is annoying but he's making good points. Nothing new though. Of course almost all anime sucks at actual animation and is full of still frames. I always thought it's simply budget issues. Some shows try harder though, Soul Eater for example was quite good in that regard. I also agree about acquired taste. There's lot of things that experienced anime viewers don't even notice anymore, it goes past us because we're used to it, there's lots of silliness in anime that would instantly put people off. That's why when we want to show someone unacquainted what anime is, we don't pick shows that represent 90% of the genre but rather go for more unique and less anime-like ones. And yes, Evangelion pretty much sucks. But I disagree about his quantity over quality point, even though it may be true it doesn't mean we watch anime because there's so much of it. If we did, clearly we would watch all western animations first and only then when we run out of them we'd turn to anime to kill more time. But the truth is, and I imagine it's true for many of you, anime just has a different and preferable way of telling stories, and it is just more appealing. I like western animation films too but I watch anime because it provides me with different content that I like even more, not because I have nothing better to watch. |
dichromaticMay 29, 2011 4:52 PM
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| He's just your typical guy with an opinion but clueless about animation. Very few people actually know what's going on in terms of animation and can't tell good animation from bad animation in the first place. They will generalize based on some poorly animated scenes they saw one time and compare that with a $100-million budget Disney film. You can't say _____ has good or bad animation (most of the time). TV series have to allocate a limited budget; that's just how it is. They will spend more money on certain cuts which will be handled by a key animator. The animation quality depends on the budget (quality and number of frames), the skill of the in-house animation team, and the skill of the freelance key animators (along with the animation director). If you're watching anime for the quality in animation, you won't get it most of the time. You have to dig for it. Specifically, you have to look for animation cuts handled exclusively by specific key animators. All I can say is he's insulting some of the most skilled people out there. People who have created some incredible things; something he will probably never do in his life. Note: The vid is 3 years old so, yeah. |
FuiMay 29, 2011 8:12 PM
Fui said: This man speaks much truth. The bottom line is, money is a crucial factor.He's just your typical guy with an opinion but clueless about animation. Very few people actually know what's going on in terms of animation and can't tell good animation from bad animation in the first place. They will generalize based on some poorly animated scenes they saw one time and compare that with a $100-million budget Disney film. You can't say _____ has good or bad animation (most of the time). TV series have to allocate a limited budget; that's just how it is. They will spend more money on certain cuts which will be handled by a key animator. The animation quality depends on the budget (quality and number of frames), the skill of the in-house animation team, and the skill of the freelance key animators (along with the animation director). If you're watching anime for the quality in animation, you won't get it most of the time. You have to dig for it. Specifically, you have to look for animation cuts handled exclusively by specific key animators. All I can say is he's insulting some of the most skilled people out there. People who have created some incredible things; something he will probably never do in his life. Note: The vid is 3 years old so, yeah. |
 |
What does he expect? A friggin' dragon to pop out flailing about every 5 seconds? Of course the Japanese are going to appear lazy. They have limited budgets, and time to make their shit (and I meant that as literally as possible). As for the movie's... well, you got me there buddy  |
 |
Leon-Gun said: This man speaks much truth. The bottom line is, money is a crucial factor. Money is the crucial factor. The anime industry is like any other business in that it exists to make money, they won't spend more money on animation if it will cause the show/movie to make less money or cause a loss of money for the company. The animation techniques were developed at a time of economic stress and those techniques are continued to this day because that's what the animation budget is modeled on, if the number of frames per second were to be raised than the producer would see a spike in the cost which would effect potential profit. Perhaps someday someone will be bold enough to take the step to start using more advanced techniques at the risk of monetary gain. To go back to the topic, personally I wouldn't say the animation sucks (for maybe 70% of the shows, there really are some abominations out there), but Western shows tend to have superior animation. One that really breaks this is Family Guy, it's super popular and makes lots of money, however the characters barely more/have jarring movements, and have really simple character designs (plus it stopped being funny awhile ago). Low animation quality isn't the mark of a bad show either. The characters in Frisky Dingo barely moved at all (all walking scenes are shown from the waist up, walking was never once animated), however the characters were drawn extremely realistically and it was funny as hell. This also relates back to money, the production company went belly-up after the second season was produced, despite the budgeted animation. |
   #NBHNC |
PeanutSteak said: Perhaps someday someone will be bold enough to take the step to start using more advanced techniques at the risk of monetary gain. ef a tale of memories/melodies. 'Nough said. |
|
lucjan said: Despite memories being one of my favorite anime, I don't remember the quality in animation of either season. I remember the artwork being absolutely amazing though. But considering that Shaft was essentially working out of a garage at that point, it was pretty crazy for them to be producing televised programs at all.PeanutSteak said: Perhaps someday someone will be bold enough to take the step to start using more advanced techniques at the risk of monetary gain. ef a tale of memories/melodies. 'Nough said. |
#NBHNC |
PeanutSteak said: lucjan said: Despite memories being one of my favorite anime, I don't remember the quality in animation of either season. I remember the artwork being absolutely amazing though. But considering that Shaft was essentially working out of a garage at that point, it was pretty crazy for them to be producing televised programs at all.PeanutSteak said: Perhaps someday someone will be bold enough to take the step to start using more advanced techniques at the risk of monetary gain. ef a tale of memories/melodies. 'Nough said. From my recollection, ef was a series with a lot of spontaneous movement. |
|
| It's all about what your budget is. Clearer and more crisp animation takes more frames per second, and more talented animators. More frames per second takes up more resources to get done, which means more money to spend. Each anime project has a limited spending amount they can use. Anime movies have better animation because their budgets are bigger. A regular series doesn't get quite as much. If more money were put towards all anime projects, then I'm sure all the animation would look great. But really, animation for regular run-of-the-mill series has gotten better in the last few years, because standards get higher. Though honestly, in the end the animation isn't really what matters, unless it's so bad it's distracting. But the story line/plot are what counts most in the end. |
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Onibokusu said: I've known this for a long time. Even American animation such as My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic shows more lifelike movement than a lot of anime, and they're god damn magical ponies. Yes all hail flash animation... |
| Studios favor quantiy because it's profitable to have more of the dvds and blurays and television ads that make them their money. There are a lot of things he conveniently left out, for example that disney and dreamworks and warner bros etc also employ many japanese animators. It's a larger part of the culture there and because of that they tend to produce lots of talented animators... but I digress. All animation studios cut corners whether you notice it or not, and keyframes are not the only way they do it. I've followed animation blogs and such from both sides of the pond for years, and I still remember the wave of criticisms surrounding computer cell shading, then computer graphics and 3D, and basically every other jump. You can debate that whatever you like is better because it was harder to make, but really it comes down to how well the story is told, and in japan they don't think having flowing hair in every scene is necessary -- and by his own admission american studios use plenty of partial animation themselves. Neither is superior, just catering to a different audience for different reasons and both emulating the other. America has been adopting anime motifs for many decades now, especially disney. Honestly I think disney's been in its corporate death throws since 2000 and they certainly shouldn't be considered the pinnacle of quality in the industry. A lot of their best staff from the 90s and 2000's bailed to other studios like DreamWorks. Disney is more of a corporate quantity-over-quality machine than the japanese studios will ever be, which is why they can't seem to churn out any watchable original stories except by accident on fringe projects. They chug out five sequels to every goddamn thing they can.... the only difference between Disney and DEEN is budget. It only gets worse if you look at the formulas employed by Warner Bros or DreamWorks, so just get over it -- you just don't like what the other guy likes. |
 I am a banana. |
| I won't pretend that I know a lot about animation, but I will use an example of an episode I just saw today. I just saw episode 7 of Denpa Onna which is made by Shaft. I could easily point out various scenes where you literally have 20 - 40 seconds where nothing moves except the characters mouths. Honestly, it's a JOKE, the pictures and "art" might be pretty, but there's NO MOVEMENT. .....and talking about Shaft, everyone remembers Bakemonogatari, don't get me wrong I LOVE Bakemonogatari..... But, the animation for that anime is just embarrassing... |
alexcampos said: I won't pretend that I know a lot about animation, but I will use an example of an episode I just saw today. I just saw episode 7 of Denpa Onna which is made by Shaft. I could easily point out various scenes where you literally have 20 - 40 seconds where nothing moves except the characters mouths. Honestly, it's a JOKE, the pictures and "art" might be pretty, but there's NO MOVEMENT. .....and talking about Shaft, everyone remembers Bakemonogatari, don't get me wrong I LOVE Bakemonogatari..... But, the animation for that anime is just embarrassing... Shaft is notorious for its Powerpoint presentations. Doesn't prevent them from topping the charts, though... |
Fui said: ... so by that logic, a hobo can be a good president because he did pretty well for a hobo. i get what you're saying with the constraints, but i'd rather look at it in the context of animation and not how well it did under X circumstances. it's like saying runescape is pretty shitty, but since its a browser java based game, it's a good mmorpg anyways.He's just your typical guy with an opinion but clueless about animation. Very few people actually know what's going on in terms of animation and can't tell good animation from bad animation in the first place. They will generalize based on some poorly animated scenes they saw one time and compare that with a $100-million budget Disney film. You can't say _____ has good or bad animation (most of the time). TV series have to allocate a limited budget; that's just how it is. They will spend more money on certain cuts which will be handled by a key animator. The animation quality depends on the budget (quality and number of frames), the skill of the in-house animation team, and the skill of the freelance key animators (along with the animation director). If you're watching anime for the quality in animation, you won't get it most of the time. You have to dig for it. Specifically, you have to look for animation cuts handled exclusively by specific key animators. All I can say is he's insulting some of the most skilled people out there. People who have created some incredible things; something he will probably never do in his life. Note: The vid is 3 years old so, yeah. |
Fui said: Shaft is notorious for its Powerpoint presentations. Doesn't prevent them from topping the charts, though... You're absolutely right, although it does prove what the guy in the video is talking about. I mean, I have Bakemonogatari as one of my favorite anime of all time, but that's 100% based on the story and characters, and yes I'll even admit on the "pretty pictures". |
| Denpa Onna's animation quality is noticeably crappy yes.... enough to cringe. There are lots of individual cases you can look at, but I like to think there are reasons we prefer anime... for example more prominent placement of breasts. |
I am a banana. |
CottonCandyLover said: Fui said: ... so by that logic, a hobo can be a good president because he did pretty well for a hobo. i get what you're saying with the constraints, but i'd rather look at it in the context of animation and not how well it did under X circumstances. it's like saying runescape is pretty shitty, but since its a browser java based game, it's a good mmorpg anyways.He's just your typical guy with an opinion but clueless about animation. Very few people actually know what's going on in terms of animation and can't tell good animation from bad animation in the first place. They will generalize based on some poorly animated scenes they saw one time and compare that with a $100-million budget Disney film. You can't say _____ has good or bad animation (most of the time). TV series have to allocate a limited budget; that's just how it is. They will spend more money on certain cuts which will be handled by a key animator. The animation quality depends on the budget (quality and number of frames), the skill of the in-house animation team, and the skill of the freelance key animators (along with the animation director). If you're watching anime for the quality in animation, you won't get it most of the time. You have to dig for it. Specifically, you have to look for animation cuts handled exclusively by specific key animators. All I can say is he's insulting some of the most skilled people out there. People who have created some incredible things; something he will probably never do in his life. Note: The vid is 3 years old so, yeah. Disney productions will usually have a more polished look because of the reasons stated. However, I still prefer the potential of Japanese animation, simply because I prefer how certain Japanese animators animate in terms of composition, action, shape language, and design. They just have different approaches and mentality towards animation, and drawing in general. |
| Disney has a huge staff, higher budgets, and better access to technology. It does not mean their second sequel to Pocahontas or their latest fairy tale movie is better as a whole. Most of Disney's original stories have been flops, especially the ones that were corporately conceived..... usually their original stories only succeed when the right staff comes together and corporate is not paying enough attention to screw it up (e.g. Lion King which played second fiddle to Alladin and was repeatedly delayed, stagnated, predicated on ideas stolen from anime, and then finally saw light after 5.5 years). Disney, and especially the modern Disney, is the most guilty of spewing out formulaic crap in huge quantities of any animation studio anywhere. Look at the tons sequels and derived fairy tail crap they continue to rely on. Even the guy in the vid seemed like he was having a hard time coming up with examples..... Brother Bear? .... sheesh. If that's the best he could come up with between all the Cinderella 2's and Lion King 3's then it's very sad... |
I am a banana. |
| jp anime = low budget & low salary, some staff need to live on their parents even they got a job, so, I would not expect much. |
| The guy has few points, but he has this "we against you" attitude, flame/trolling comments and at the end makes a conclusion that anime is worse than most of other animation out there(and doesn't say it's only animation wise). Seems only a bit more than your average hater. |
| I take my time to read to read the subs so i don't mind when talking scenes are static, i wouldn't notice if something was moving anyway. Also, I really do want to nail him to a piece of wood, he's so freaking annoying. |
| His quality of quantity argument it's kinda moot, Western animations has it's faults aswell, He argues that you get bored of the same thing in anime, but that can also be said with western animation and always following the Disney tropes. It's extremely rare to find American animation that doesn't follow the Disney mold. |
| It doesn't think, it doesn't feel, it doesn't laugh or cry..... All it does from dusk till dawn is make the soldiers die. |
| He did make some great points. I usually choose an anime to watch<b>either</b> by screenshots of the amazing art work from an anime series or by reading the story synopsis. But mostly the story is what really makes a good anime for me (after I watch it that is), where as the art work that I see in screenshots is what might be a big draw for me to attempt to give the anime a try, like 50 Centimetres Per Second...even though I did quite like the story as well. I do quite like Naruto Shippuuden (prepares for trolls and haters), I just find the story appealing to myself, but the animation does quite suck. Especially as of late with the flashbacks and even the fight with Pein, the animation wasn't really to my liking. |
ichigo03 said: Anime puts QUANTITY ahead of QUALITY, every year there are only about 1 - 3 anime that are Really good, despite the fact that every year there are more than 100 new anime. So what you're saying is you only watch three shows a year, then... because there's a lot more than 3 good shows from this season alone. Ano Hana, SKET Dance, Deadman Wonderlan, Tiger and Bunny. Boom. named four quite easily. :) Onibokusu said: Even American animation such as My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic shows more lifelike movement than a lot of anime, and they're god damn magical ponies. Yeah, no. Take your 4chan stuff somewhere else, k thanks. It's just more poorly animated Flash garbage America loves to churn out. |
TheBastid said: When US Animation can have anime with quality like Berserk, Evangelion, Shigurui, Samurai Champlooo...then maybe I will listen. This is exactly what this guy is arguing... Animation does not have anything to do with story or pretty pictures, it has to do with ANIMATING and bringing to life the characters. Evangelion is NOT a good example of quality animation.....C'mon don't say things like that. Also, you should've listened to the video because he DOES talk about Evangelion and Samurai Champloo. |
alexcampos said: He actually dismisses Samurai Champloo even after admitting he hasn't really given it a serious look. He was more interested in mocking the anime community as a whole than arguing in a non-biased way which makes the valid points get drowned between his biased hate.TheBastid said: When US Animation can have anime with quality like Berserk, Evangelion, Shigurui, Samurai Champlooo...then maybe I will listen. This is exactly what this guy is arguing... Animation does not have anything to do with story or pretty pictures, it has to do with ANIMATING and bringing to life the characters. Evangelion is NOT a good example of quality animation.....C'mon don't say things like that. Also, you should've listened to the video because he DOES talk about Evangelion and Samurai Champloo. |
|
Leon-Gun said: He actually dismisses Samurai Champloo even after admitting he hasn't really given it a serious look. He was more interested in mocking the anime community as a whole than arguing in a non-biased way which makes the valid points get drowned between his biased hate. I went back and looked at the video, you're right he does dismiss Samurai Champloo, however he does have valid points about "Little Animation". I've seen it so many times, when you have scenes where there is NO MOVEMENT and all they do is go back and forth between characters or scenes instead of having a more "Fluid movement". I don't agree with this person in terms of his belief that anime is inferior to Disney, but then again his main points are about TECHNICAL aspects, not the story or pictures. |
| Ok so first of all this guy is retard, thats needs to be said, and he don't know what he is talking about thats for sure. To proof to this theory (and the one that he wanted so badly from anime fans) I recommend Bruce Block book The Visual Story, 2 Ed - Creating the Visual Structure of Film, TV and Digital Media. Frame rate, amount of movement in scene has nothing to do with quality of animation, he also shows stills from stopmotion movies where using low framerate animation is common like other "time saving" technics for example shooting 2 the same frames to speed up whole production. Using different framerate and stills depends of what is happening on the screen, and please don't tell me that Disney is actually making "perfect" animations because they was using rotoscoping in Snow White to make this movie a lot faster, also Disney made many many movies and tv series that are medium-quality but still everyone still talks only about those epic old animations. This topic is huge and many books can be written about it, many was like Tony White - How to Make Animated Films - 2009, or The Animator's Workbook among the best I've seen, but there was no single sentence in those books to proof that this retard is even near being right. Actually there is also book Japanese Visual Culture edited by Mark W MacWilliams that shows how great anime (and manga) is as medium and how different from what we know from our yard - but that doesn't mean its better or worse. Anime is just different approach nothing else, there are many great shows that we as fans can be proud of , only flaw that anime rly have this days is that its massive business full of products that needs to be sell and minority of actual good stories that have something to say... but its common to every big business from book,games,movies to even comics and music. So please lets stop feeding this not even successful troll because "keyboard ( webcam in this case ) warriors" need attention to grow. |
TitanXL said: ichigo03 said: Anime puts QUANTITY ahead of QUALITY, every year there are only about 1 - 3 anime that are Really good, despite the fact that every year there are more than 100 new anime. So what you're saying is you only watch three shows a year, then... because there's a lot more than 3 good shows from this season alone. Ano Hana, SKET Dance, Deadman Wonderlan, Tiger and Bunny. Boom. named four quite easily. :) bro srsly maybe if you like, have no taste or something. TitanXL said: Onibokusu said: Even American animation such as My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic shows more lifelike movement than a lot of anime, and they're god damn magical ponies. Yeah, no. Take your 4chan stuff somewhere else, k thanks. It's just more poorly animated Flash garbage America loves to churn out. bro if they made some anime show in that style you'd probably be calling it creative or something |
| I don't think the video creator is deliberately trolling (much), but in most contexts people tend to see differences as flaws. He's getting a lot of flames from anime fans who are much less educated on the matter than he is and trolling them a bit in between. It's not difficult to see the cheap tricks, and they're usually due to budget or schedule constraints. I don't think every anime is Dragonball Z though, or that people would even mind if every anime were more like DBZ... He obviously likes to watch anime too despite those technical complaints..... so he's just being critical. He does tout how he enjoys the diverse content in anime, and I'd venture that people watch anime for that more than the technical aspects. The technical aspects are important sure and anime has its share of technical contributions, but by his own admission that really only matters to people who do animation. The average viewer just wants to enjoy it. Disney can afford to spend 3 years on a production and make beautiful animation with a watered-down family-friendly script, but from anime to Disney that content/technical tradeoff is steep. Going by content, Disney is like smoking the stress... once every ~3 years when they actually get a feature out. I'd prefer to have all the weed I could smoke, and a huge backlog of accumulated kush to draw from. I'd love to see every anime series on FMA:B level too, but small japanese animation studios can't afford to put their eggs in one basket, and lots of little eggs are plainly more profitable. If anime productions had more relaxed schedules and big budgets, there definitely would be better animation quality.... but whether it would be better is debatable. If you only have a few "quality" productions then that also eliminates a lot of the fun quirky shows we love from ever being produced. That content diversity he loves is really predicted on the cheapness of their production, so I don't mind if they play magician with their "pretty pictures" as long as the message is still getting across. He wants to trade SHAFT for Disney, but it's better to have both ends of the spectrum. |
sakaMay 30, 2011 9:00 PM
I am a banana. |
| Possibly I just haven't been exposed to tons of different anime to the point where I would come across truly awful art, or something like that, but I'm pretty much indifferent to it. If this is referring to the art "style" (-ish?) anime series tend to have, still indifferent. That in itself is pretty much subjective anyways, so I wouldn't care if someone said it either sucked or was great. I don't mind it. alexcampos said: Evangelion in general actually was, especially the movie; and take into account it was made in 1995/1996, not 2011. The last two episodes obviously are notorious for not being a good example of quality animation, but everything else? And the remakes, while I've only seen previews, are also supposedly pretty remarkable.TheBastid said: When US Animation can have anime with quality like Berserk, Evangelion, Shigurui, Samurai Champlooo...then maybe I will listen. This is exactly what this guy is arguing... Animation does not have anything to do with story or pretty pictures, it has to do with ANIMATING and bringing to life the characters. Evangelion is NOT a good example of quality animation.....C'mon don't say things like that. Also, you should've listened to the video because he DOES talk about Evangelion and Samurai Champloo. |
HaibaneRenmeiFanMay 30, 2011 9:18 PM
 |
TitanXL said: Onibokusu said: Even American animation such as My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic shows more lifelike movement than a lot of anime, and they're god damn magical ponies. Yeah, no. Take your 4chan stuff somewhere else, k thanks. It's just more poorly animated Flash garbage America loves to churn out. Here you go buddy: Watch that, and without joking please tell me that's not amazing animation. Remember that ANIMATION is not story. |
| @saka I have too admit what you posted is reasonable understandable and no one Quoted you or so called "trolled" what you said, with that being said ... for everyone: Im not expert and obviously I haven't watched a lot of anime like you guys... but Come on you cant take everything into account as being "true" but more so as opinion... aslo if you dont like a certain content such as animations then Don't watch it ... Just to be a tad mean I like anime soooooooooooo much Ive spent like a whole month of my life watching it ... no i haven't ... but ive watched movies at theatres that i do enjoy and spent it that way oh right i forgot animation in anime doesnt suck it just needs to be re-discovered by a new type of era for the future If you like pony's cause of a animation pffft im afraid of what you will like if animation was like that for everything |
ricosuaveMay 30, 2011 10:29 PM
| Haters gonna hate the ones that keep it real. |
ricosuave said: I was referring to the original vid, where he says in no uncertain terms that he's doing it to undermine the legitimacy of raging anime fans, and wallow in their rage -- that would be trolling. I really don't blame him, since there are way too many braindead teenagers who think they have taste but can't explain why. It certainly dilutes his message though.@saka I have too admit what you posted is reasonable understandable and no one Quoted you or so called "trolled" what you said Onibokusu said: That's all vectored cell shading animation... they make key frames and the computer does the inbetweens. It's a Flash cartoon. Apples and oranges, anyway. American companies use cell shading because it's fast and cheap. Computers are used everywhere, but generally it still starts as hand-drawn for most of the anime we watch. I'm not going to debate whether certain techniques are better or more pure, but basically the studio does whatever it can do to get the effect they want as efficiently as possible.... even if some viewers notice the rough edges. Japanese and western animation both cut corners... and the guy who made the vid acknowledges that too. He's somehow pissed about feature length movies not looking like disney features... but then he applies that to anime generally which is why it's kind of double talk.My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic edit: typos |
sakaMay 30, 2011 10:55 PM
I am a banana. |
alexcampos said: Watch that, and without joking please tell me that's not amazing animation. Well, ignoring the god awful voice acting (that's honestly the worst fake southern accent I've ever heard) I must say I did like the part where they reuse the same two designs like six times in one scene. http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/4062/capma.png Though I suppose that's to be expected when all the characters are the same basic model, only with different colors and hair styles. But no, it moves very stiff and awkward. Everything slides around and it's incredibly obvious it's being moved around in a computer program. That's the thing with Flash, it's obvious when it's being used and it's impossible to hide that fact. The simple act of some random anime character flipping their hair has more natural movement than anything in that.. the hair in that moves so unnaturally, like it's one big blob or string. |
TitanXLMay 30, 2011 11:40 PM
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