| Hey guys! I wanted to make a list for all of us out there that don't like watching or reading things with really big hints of sexism in them. So this'll be a masterthread for that. Please note that if there's a series in here that you don't agree with, you have to state exactly why you don't think it belongs in this list in a well-mannered and argued form. Also note that if you do plan to suggest series for this list, make sure you provide reasons as to why it should be! Thank you! List here: Legend: * victimized or helpless female characters # sexual violence is frequent, romanticized, eroticized, excused, ruins survivor for life, or victim blamed, etc. ♦ female characters unimportant/ undeveloped, only support for hero's objective ♣ infantilized female characters ▼ hero verbally denigrates women, often using stereotypes (p) loli or shota |
AmberlehJun 29, 2020 1:55 PM
| Why are Fate/Zero, Vampire Knight and Mnemosyne anti-feminist? Or even Code Geass? I DO agree that Fate/Stay Night was misogynistic as fuck, the way it kept sending Saber into the kitchen, but Fate/Zero had none of that. I loved how they kept Saber as a strong character in her own right, with goals that had nothing to do with guys, and without Kiritsugu baby-sitting and white knighting her. When she faced her problems as a king, when Gilgamesh and Iskandar criticised her, it never had anything to do with her being a female ruler, just one far too democratic for a country that needed a monarch. In fact, I'd vote adding Fate/Zero to the list of feminist anime. Regarding the other three - well, I wouldn't add them to any list of feminist anime either, but they're hardly anti. I always thought Vampire Knight was special among manga/anime of its type because of the way the author kept Yuki relevant and strong. When she was introduced she was defending the school from vampires (with a long cool-looking staff thing!), holding her own despite being human, being capable of protecting herself despite having the strongest guys in school at her call. The end of the anime kind of had her in a slump, but the manga continues to show how she quickly grows independent from Kaname again because she doesn't like being kept at home. I really should finish it one of these days. Mnemosyne is an odd one. I don't remember the details, but I do remember loving the girls. And... Code Geass? That's just random. ------------------------ To balance it out, a few un-recommendations: Please Save My Earth - I raged so hard when I read this. Let me get this straight, the girl is explicitly raped, but it isn't about her because the guy HAD A TRAGIC PAST and it's totally fine, because he's sooooooo hot. And tragic. Let's all forgive him and be happy together, nevermind him doing something so abhorrent. Berserk: most of the anime is fine, up until the last few episodes... which also work, because of the shock factor. The manga then degenerates into a craptastic rapefest where women exist just to be torn apart by various human and demonic dicks. Yay. But even if the anime was ok, from a feminist standpoint it was very, very painful. So Caska, this strong warrior. Independent and all - we can't have that. She gets put in the fridge in the backstory arc, being raped by one of the guys and her mind destroyed. The rape is used to give the main male character a sense of purpose. The worst part of it was that even the rape itself was never about her, demon!Griffith never gave her one smidgen of attention while he was doing it - he kept looking at the main male character. In fact, the series made it abundantly clear that the only reason she had to suffer that was because she was Gutts' girlfriend. Edit: oh, and Fushigi Yuugi - I probably don't have to say why. Especially considering what it did to that blond girl, the 'rival'. |
KiralySep 17, 2013 2:22 PM
| Hmmm you should watch F/Z again, because trust me, it's insanely sexist. One of the most sexist anime I've seen. Urobuchi hates women (this is a pretty well known fact) and it shows in F/Z. Everyone is at first excited to see the reincarnation of King Arthur, but as soon as she makes ANY mistake they say "OH IT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE A WOMAN! You're a little girl who should be playing with dolls!" - Seriously. Every single goddamn time. In a feminist anime, she would rise up and say "no eff you" and prove them wrong, but in F/Z she takes their words to heart and starts questioning herself and her noble actions. All of the other women are either plot devices or tools. When they finally show a strong woman (the assassin) she says near the end of her life "You know I secretly always wanted to be a mother, I just didn't know it..." In any other series this would have been fine, but in F/Z it was just more icing to the cake of mysoginy. Vampire Knight I have only seen a bit of, but Yuuki seemed to be the typical reverse harem lead who gets sexually harassed and really doesn't do much about it. She gets saved a lot, etc. Mnemosyne has loli almost-rape and that nun orgy scene, if you recall. Code Geass used women as tools. Euphy was strong, but she gets degraded and becomes nothing more than a tool for Lelouche's rise to power and Suzaku's angst and hate for Lelouche. CC is just fanservice and hardly has any real place in the story except as a tool for Lelouche. Nunally was cool but that end scene with her in Slave Leia wear was too much (loli fanservice is an automatic turn off for me). There were also two yanderes, that is usually an auto negative for me. |
Amberleh said: Hmmm you should watch F/Z again, because trust me, it's insanely sexist. One of the most sexist anime I've seen. Urobuchi hates women (this is a pretty well known fact) and it shows in F/Z. Everyone is at first excited to see the reincarnation of King Arthur, but as soon as she makes ANY mistake they say "OH IT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE A WOMAN! You're a little girl who should be playing with dolls!" - Seriously. Every single goddamn time. In a feminist anime, she would rise up and say "no eff you" and prove them wrong, but in F/Z she takes their words to heart and starts questioning herself and her noble actions. All of the other women are either plot devices or tools. When they finally show a strong woman (the assassin) she says near the end of her life "You know I secretly always wanted to be a mother, I just didn't know it..." In any other series this would have been fine, but in F/Z it was just more icing to the cake of mysoginy. Vampire Knight I have only seen a bit of, but Yuuki seemed to be the typical reverse harem lead who gets sexually harassed and really doesn't do much about it. She gets saved a lot, etc. Mnemosyne has loli almost-rape and that nun orgy scene, if you recall. Code Geass used women as tools. Euphy was strong, but she gets degraded and becomes nothing more than a tool for Lelouche's rise to power and Suzaku's angst and hate for Lelouche. CC is just fanservice and hardly has any real place in the story except as a tool for Lelouche. Nunally was cool but that end scene with her in Slave Leia wear was too much (loli fanservice is an automatic turn off for me). There were also two yanderes, that is usually an auto negative for me. Regarding Vampire Knight: I don't remember her getting sexually harassed, ever. She'd have hit them. She does get a bit close to Kaname, but then again she's in love with him - and it never went anywhere. She gets saved because it's the genre, but she holds up her own more than other characters in similar situations do. And I honestly didn't remember that about Mnemosyne, but it's been years. Urobuchi hating women - I never got the impression, in ANY of his works. Not in Madoka, Phantom, Gargantia (although that was pretty bad in other ways and deserves to be on this list) or Psycho Pass. Yes, the women suffer, but so do the guys. All three women (including both lesbians) survived Psycho Pass, while three of the fours guys died. Isn't that just one of those unfounded rumours because he likes writing tragedy? I also don't remember characters or the show itself ever questioning Saber in light of her being a woman (although Gilgamesh might have taunted her, he's a douche like that). In fact, that was what I loved most about it and part of why I gave it a 10/10. She wasn't a good ruler, but not because her ideas or methods were wrong, but because she was far ahead of her time. Her moderate (and modern) ideas were contrasted with Iskandar's warmongering heroism and Gilgamesh's decadence and supremacy - her dialogue and character arc would be no different if she were a guy. I haven't decided whether questioning herself was correct - the bad things that happened were her fault, but her noble ideas were right. (It's not just her, I felt similarly about Kiritsugu). Then there was also Irisviel's character arc, who grew up as a doll and was just learning to grow her own personality. They could have kept her around her husband (or at home cooking, hello FSN!), but instead she was walking around and talking to Saber. That was nice. They did kill her, but at that point the show was ending and her death was one of the 'canon' facts Urobuchi had to keep straight from Nasu. You also have to remember that Nasu decided the characters that participated in that war and their genders. About Code Geass: huh, I don't mind loli fanservice (it's one of the trappings of anime), or yanderes, or even fanservice, depending on how it's used. And I liked CC, so I guess I just never felt it. Ok though. |
KiralySep 17, 2013 2:58 PM
Kiraly said: I always thought Vampire Knight was special among manga/anime of its type because of the way the author kept Yuki relevant and strong. When she was introduced she was defending the school from vampires (with a long cool-looking staff thing!), holding her own despite being human, being capable of protecting herself despite having the strongest guys in school at her call. The end of the anime kind of had her in a slump, but the manga continues to show how she quickly grows independent from Kaname again because she doesn't like being kept at home. I really should finish it one of these days. I'm adding in Vampire Knight due to the fact that she, honestly, isn't very capable of much stuff on her own. She wasn't exactly sexually harassed, but the other vampires definitely used her as a tool for their winning, plus I remember that one blonde vampire harassing her. Yuuki hardly does anything on her own or for her own good, and again, always really needs saving. She's always crying for either "Kaname-san!!" or "Zero!!" and hardly does anything of relevance in the series other than let all the vampires work for her. The sensual scenes of her being bitten or dominated by Kaname, Zero, or Aidou (blonde dude) help express this too. Yuuki only depends on the vampires to help protect her, and in the end she needs the strength from ANOTHER vampire to grow strong. And even then iirc it was all the dudes fighting for her too. My memory on it is hazy, but I do recall Yuuki being a very generic and helpless female lead, always crying out for Kaname or Zero and hardly being able to save herself without their help, plus subjecting herself to the vampires sensually coming at them. |
| Oh Kiraly, the reason the loli fanservice/fanservice in general is an issue is because that it degrades the characters. Same with yanderes, since yanderes are mostly just a trope and fanservice or yandere fans too. It's not as bad if the fanservice isn't the only thing carrying the characters, but aside from, let's say, C.C.'s fanservice, she's not much of a character. |
| I don't think. Berserk is sexist per se. Sure, the rape scenes are common but let's not forget that this applies to males as well and is in many instances not just for shock value/gore. Caska is an obvious example, but we have several characters like Luca (the prostitute in the Conviction arc), Charlotte, Farnese, the children in the Lost Children arc and Sonia who are imho good examples of various female characters and tropes in such a setting. I won't deny a certain moe factor in regards to Schierke, Isma and a few others, though. Still, while it's certainly not a series that wins the "feminist of the year" award, it is not strongly sexist in its approach either. Actually, I'd vote for Luca as a character belonging on the relations list for this club as I liked her strong and independent attitude during the events that unfolded. |
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
Akichii said: Oh Kiraly, the reason the loli fanservice/fanservice in general is an issue is because that it degrades the characters. Same with yanderes, since yanderes are mostly just a trope and fanservice or yandere fans too. It's not as bad if the fanservice isn't the only thing carrying the characters, but aside from, let's say, C.C.'s fanservice, she's not much of a character. I just said I don't mind them, as I generally don't mind fanservice as long as its balanced by something (or even by other series). I even like fanservice sometimes.Re: other series, Death Note kinda fits the bill too. Regarding VK, I don't remember Aidou dominating her at all, or the side-characters doing anything (but then again I saw it when it aired which was how many years ago?) So my memory isn't the best either, I was thinking about her more in terms of other leads in similar situations. What does what's-her-name ever do in Fruits Basket, except cook, clean and be nice? Or girls in Itazuka na Kiss, Hana Yori Dango, HaruToki, or Miaka in Fushigi Yuugi, Hiiro no Kakera, Hakuouki the list goes on. ...well, Hakuouki isn't fair since the lead is much better in the VN, but this isn't about VNs. |
Nidhoeggr said: I don't think. Berserk is sexist per se. Sure, the rape scenes are common but let's not forget that this applies to males as well and is in many instances not just for shock value/gore. Caska is an obvious example, but we have several characters like Luca (the prostitute in the Conviction arc), Charlotte, Farnese, the children in the Lost Children arc and Sonia who are imho good examples of various female characters and tropes in such a setting. I won't deny a certain moe factor in regards to Schierke, Isma and a few others, though. Still, while it's certainly not a series that wins the "feminist of the year" award, it is not strongly sexist in its approach either. Actually, I'd vote for Luca as a character belonging on the relations list for this club as I liked her strong and independent attitude during the events that unfolded. None of them appear in the anime, though. I never got that far in the manga. The rape mountain sometime (soon) after the flashback arc) and daddy raping the girl Griffith with slept kinda put me off it. And Caska, of course. |
Kiraly said: There was a scene where Aidou I think found her in the vampire mansion and he kept going on about how lovely her blood tasted and how he wanted more of her. He did this in episode 2 as well. It's not the side-characters that do this, mostly just Kaname and Zero. Yuuki's entire personality, her whole CHILDHOOD in general revolves around these two. Nothing else. Akichii said: Oh Kiraly, the reason the loli fanservice/fanservice in general is an issue is because that it degrades the characters. Same with yanderes, since yanderes are mostly just a trope and fanservice or yandere fans too. It's not as bad if the fanservice isn't the only thing carrying the characters, but aside from, let's say, C.C.'s fanservice, she's not much of a character. I just said I don't mind them, as I generally don't mind fanservice as long as its balanced by something (or even by other series). I even like fanservice sometimes.Re: other series, Death Note kinda fits the bill too. Regarding VK, I don't remember Aidou dominating her at all, or the side-characters doing anything (but then again I saw it when it aired which was how many years ago?) So my memory isn't the best either, I was thinking about her more in terms of other leads in similar situations. What does what's-her-name ever do in Fruits Basket, except cook, clean and be nice? Or girls in Itazuka na Kiss, Hana Yori Dango, HaruToki, or Miaka in Fushigi Yuugi, Hiiro no Kakera, Hakuouki the list goes on. ...well, Hakuouki isn't fair since the lead is much better in the VN, but this isn't about VNs. Regarding the second half of your post, I (thankfully) haven't seen any of these, but yeah you can post up elaborated reasons as to why you think those other series belongs here. |
Akichii said: There was a scene where Aidou I think found her in the vampire mansion and he kept going on about how lovely her blood tasted and how he wanted more of her. He did this in episode 2 as well. It's not the side-characters that do this, mostly just Kaname and Zero. Yuuki's entire personality, her whole CHILDHOOD in general revolves around these two. Nothing else. Regarding the second half of your post, I (thankfully) haven't seen any of these, but yeah you can post up elaborated reasons as to why you think those other series belongs here. Well, there aren't any elaborate reasons, just the usual passive female character asshole males to varying degrees. Itazura na Kiss was a bad offender because the guy stays an asshole, and Fushigi Yuugi had a rape thing going on with the female 'rival' (who was just 'jealous' of Miaka being so great and perfect). I don't remember that scene, but ok, I believe you. He must have stopped doing that later, I remember the guy as a playful but stuck-off playboy, not as a rapist. And her childhood revolving around them was somewhat justified (that was the plot). |
Kiraly said: Well to be fair none of these guys stop being assholes either. I mean, I guess Zero does sorta? But Kaname continues to selfishly use Yuuki and continues to tempt her into becoming a vampire just for Kaname's own sake and good, and Yuuki really doesn't fight it since it's her ~precious Kaname-sama~Akichii said: There was a scene where Aidou I think found her in the vampire mansion and he kept going on about how lovely her blood tasted and how he wanted more of her. He did this in episode 2 as well. It's not the side-characters that do this, mostly just Kaname and Zero. Yuuki's entire personality, her whole CHILDHOOD in general revolves around these two. Nothing else. Regarding the second half of your post, I (thankfully) haven't seen any of these, but yeah you can post up elaborated reasons as to why you think those other series belongs here. Well, there aren't any elaborate reasons, just the usual passive female character asshole males to varying degrees. Itazura na Kiss was a bad offender because the guy stays an asshole, and Fushigi Yuugi had a rape thing going on with the female 'rival' (who was just 'jealous' of Miaka being so great and perfect). I don't remember that scene, but ok, I believe you. He must have stopped doing that later, I remember the guy as a playful but stuck-off playboy, not as a rapist. And her childhood revolving around them was somewhat justified (that was the plot). I include VK due to its popularity too and how it seems to be pretty well-praised by a lot of fans who don't realize a lot of the problematic elements in it. Aidou definitely wasn't a rapist, in fact I kind of liked him. But it was just the situations that him and Yuuki were put in were very discomforting imo. |
| I think ultimately what we want to prove, Kiraly, is that there is sexism in shoujo/josei as well as feminism in shounen (and the very very very rare sienen, usually if it's written by a woman.) We also want to note that fan service doesn't necessarily mean sexism. "Sexy not sexist". This is why Michiko to Hatchin and Fairy Tail are on the relations list (and I'm still debating adding Witchblade). Fairy Tail especially is very ecchi, but it isn't sexist and is, in fact, very empowering to women. |
Akichii said: Well to be fair none of these guys stop being assholes either. I mean, I guess Zero does sorta? But Kaname continues to selfishly use Yuuki and continues to tempt her into becoming a vampire just for Kaname's own sake and good, and Yuuki really doesn't fight it since it's her ~precious Kaname-sama~ I include VK due to its popularity too and how it seems to be pretty well-praised by a lot of fans who don't realize a lot of the problematic elements in it. Aidou definitely wasn't a rapist, in fact I kind of liked him. But it was just the situations that him and Yuuki were put in were very discomforting imo. Eh? Kaname was never an asshole. (These discussions are such spoilers) Yuuki was born a vampire, and Kaname kept holding back out of respect for her, and because he saw she was happy. I don't remember the exact trigger that caused him to ultimately give in. He never used her, he spent most of his time brooding and angsting and keeping the girl at arm's length (by Princess Tutu breakdown, he was the 'prince' character to Zero's 'knight'). Once they leave the school he kept her at home where he insisted on her continuing her education, for her protection - although she decides to leave (without him!) after a while because she didn't want to be kept at home. I haven't read the entire manga though, so who knows how this turns out in the end. Zero was kinda stand-offish and bad at expressing himself, but I wouldn't call him an asshole either (''knight' characters usually are to some degree - remember what a prick Fakir was in the beginning, in Princess Tutu?). He's always been like a brother to her (heh). And I guess I understand. I'm used to defending Vampire Knight, because it has a reputation as anime!Twilight (there are similarities, ok that much I admit), when it's just not fair. I keep bringing up Princess Tutu because I think its a codification of the shoujo genre as a whole, and you can use it like an analytic essay for pretty much every single shoujo series ever written <3 |
| Regarding Vamp Knight. At the start of the manga, Yuuki showed some semblance of an character, feeling attraction to both Zero and Kamane, forming a bizarre love triangle. She would show disapproval to both of them is the moment rose up and she was still a bad character, but at least HAD a character. Now look at her. After her vampire transformation she became completely dominated by Kamane and effectively wrote Zero out of her life, letting Kamane do all sorts of things to her, with her accepting it willingly. Also Berserk. Rape may be a common factor in Berserk, but is home to some powerful women. Most of the women in Berserk have fought in some way. Casca, Farnese and Shierke (though Casca quite less) have thought against various apostles, and like Nid said, even the prostitutes fight against fate. It may not be as empowering to women as say Utena or Sailor Moon, but it is in no way sexist. |
VentusCrossSep 17, 2013 9:49 PM
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| I'm just not going to include Berserk in either one. I personally do think it's sexist, but I feel like it's the same kind of sexist as Conan the Barbarian- it's not even worth discussing because you probably expect sexism going in. Same goes for pretty much every harem except Ranma 1/2 which I think I will add to relations. |
MrsKotobuki said: Hi, I'm new to MAL and this club, but I wanted to ask: Are reverse harem anime too obviously sexist to be on this list? I usually expect less sexism from them, but I'm often times disappointed, ESPECIALLY with Brothers Conflict and the newly-released ongoing Diabolik Lovers. Welcome!! =) That's a good question. Actually, you just gave me an idea- Perhaps we should have a separate thread dedicated to sexist series that are from the female demographic. What do you all think? |
MrsKotobuki said: Amberleh said: Welcome!! =) That's a good question. Actually, you just gave me an idea- Perhaps we should have a separate thread dedicated to sexist series that are from the female demographic. What do you all think? That's a good idea! Because there seems to be a very big misconception that if an anime's made "for women" (yaoi genre aside), it'll be less misogynistic and have relatable female characters, yet sadly most of the time it's apparent that "for women" means a group of men guessing at what women want/what their fantasies are, which are often times very far off the mark and tread in abusive territory. No, worse than that, a lot of shoujo manga written by women are reaalllly sexist. Yuu Watase, as much as I like her stuff, is always sexist. Most shoujo in fact are sexist- It really gives you a look into how backwards Japanese culture is. |
MrsKotobuki said: Amberleh said: MrsKotobuki said: Amberleh said: Welcome!! =) That's a good question. Actually, you just gave me an idea- Perhaps we should have a separate thread dedicated to sexist series that are from the female demographic. What do you all think? That's a good idea! Because there seems to be a very big misconception that if an anime's made "for women" (yaoi genre aside), it'll be less misogynistic and have relatable female characters, yet sadly most of the time it's apparent that "for women" means a group of men guessing at what women want/what their fantasies are, which are often times very far off the mark and tread in abusive territory. No, worse than that, a lot of shoujo manga written by women are reaalllly sexist. Yuu Watase, as much as I like her stuff, is always sexist. Most shoujo in fact are sexist- It really gives you a look into how backwards Japanese culture is. Unfortunately, yeah. ): I'm always extra disappointed when I watch/read something repulsive and look it up and the mangaka/anime director is female. Also, if you don't mind me asking, why is Clannad under offensive to women? Admittedly it's been a while since I've seen it, but I don't remember a ton sticking out to me as being gross. I really liked Fuko's arc and her dream to attend her sister's wedding. Nagisa is a perfect soulless waifu. It's also a harem that pretends it's not a harem. |
Amberleh said: MrsKotobuki said: Amberleh said: Welcome!! =) That's a good question. Actually, you just gave me an idea- Perhaps we should have a separate thread dedicated to sexist series that are from the female demographic. What do you all think? That's a good idea! Because there seems to be a very big misconception that if an anime's made "for women" (yaoi genre aside), it'll be less misogynistic and have relatable female characters, yet sadly most of the time it's apparent that "for women" means a group of men guessing at what women want/what their fantasies are, which are often times very far off the mark and tread in abusive territory. No, worse than that, a lot of shoujo manga written by women are reaalllly sexist. Yuu Watase, as much as I like her stuff, is always sexist. Most shoujo in fact are sexist- It really gives you a look into how backwards Japanese culture is. Sexist, yes, though I wouldn't go as far as to call them misogynistic. In the end they're just fantasies - many women secretly or not so secretly have a fantasy of being protected and cared for by a confident and powerful guy. Many women also have rape fantasies, which often boil down to getting sex but not appearing 'wanting' sex. These are often culturally ingrained and hard to shake, especially in strict patriarchal societies such as Japan. For me feminism means embracing all aspects of being a woman, even the ones I don't personally feel (or even agree with). I find pointing out, creating awareness that women do not have to be like this very, very important, but not at the cost of rejecting the women who do honestly identify with the stereotype. One of my colleagues at work is a shoujo heroine. She got together with an asshole involved in all sorts of shady deals (including drugs) and without any sort of sense of responsibility. She's a perfect wife, cleans, cooks, is always nice and amiable, and likes doing all this. I heard from others how bad the guy used to be (though not outright abusive), but now that I also work with him I can't see it - he's nice. He's become nice. And she couldn't be happier or more satisfied with her life. I've met similar people before, but meeting her flipped a switch in my mind - can I tell her to her face that the way she lives is sexist, wrong on so many levels and disgusting to a degree? I couldn't. I just saw a happy girl. tl;dr I'm more concerned with presentation and discussion, usually. "I, as an individual, wish to be protected by a powerful guy" vs "All women want to be protected by powerful guys" |
MrsKotobuki said: I think it's worth analyzing WHY women seem to enjoy doing these things, though. Just because a woman does something or wants to do something doesn't mean it isn't harmful or or that she hasn't been conditioned to think this way. If problematic anime and manga are marketed specifically to women, don't you think many young girls will watch/read them and internalize that that this is what relationships are/this is how women and men should behave? It's harmful to have manga out that blur the line between consent and rape and make unhealthy relationships seem healthy, and those are the MAJORITY of female-oriented manga. Rape fantasies, while common I'm sure, are not healthy, and are a side-effect of living in a patriarchal society with polarized gender roles and normalized abuse of women. The issue isn't if women are HAPPY being in subordinate positions or being at a disadvantage (which women are if they're stay-at-home-wives), it's why they're there in the first place and if future generations of girls should be encouraged to walk the same path. Our decisions are never made in some internalized misogyny-free vacuum. Well, that's the thing. Situation 1) An impressionable 13 year old reads, oh, idk, Fruits Basket, and internalizes the fact that assholes are sexy and will ALWAYS turn to be nice if you just continue insisting. And that you should start cooking, cleaning and being a perfect waifu. Situation 2) An impressionable 13 year old reads Fruits Basket and internalizes the fact that even if she's shy and unconfident, she's still beautiful and has many other talents. That even if people seem scary, you can reach out and make friends, and that people come with all sorts of baggage and you shouldn't judge them by first impressions. Situation 3) A 20 year old reads Fruits Basket and sees Tohru being a slave, Kyo an asshole and gives up on it around the time the anime ends. It's obviously giving problematic messages. Situation 4) A 20 year old reads Fruits Basket and enjoys the fantasy of having to move in with a bunch of (hot!) guys who appreciate her, 'taming' the wilder ones by just being herself, and having a romance with someone very special who only they can save. It's obviously a fantasy, what's the harm in it? All this from the same story. What do you internalize? How much of it is your own personality? Variants of these arguments can be made for many series (with exceptions, I will never tolerate rape presented as something nice and romantic). I was case 2 when I read it at 14, but I'm sure there were many case 1s. That's why although I don't think these series should be added to a feminist list, I don't find them misogynistic either. |
| I honestly have to agree to an extent with Death Note. It definitely has a lot of sexist elements with nearly ALL of its female leads. Oreimo.. eh. It's not significant enough to be added if you ask me. I don't really see him turning down every girl except his sister as offensive more as just plain stupid, you know? Pandora Hearts.. while Alice may be the driving force, her character isn't exactly there to empower. She's definitely a very strong female lead, emotionally and physically, and I wouldn't be against adding her as a character on the list, but the entire anime I'd have to decline. Don't forget to suggest characters too! |
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sushi55 said: - Samurai Champloo. I love this show, but Fu is so fucking worthless it's not even funny. Warning, minor unimportant spoilers below (they don't spoil anything about the plot). Fuu might not be made of brawn or wield blades like Jin and Mugen, but she's equally an admirable protagonist. When did she ever not display bravery and courage in times where most people would shrink away, reach out to someone in help, displaed cleverness and wit when it served it's use, or faced any challenging situation head on? Right.. never. In the first episode she climbs up on a roof with firecrackers to create a diversion. Suddenly she needs to throw dice in a where stakes are high? She jumps straight into it. Whether or not Champloo deserves to be put on the list for other aspects of the series is debatable, but to which I'd still ultimately say no. |
sushi55 said: Such as?As much as it pains me to attack a show I love deeply, Fu was often used as the damsel in distress (God I'm repeating that a lot) card to bring Mugen and Jin together. She was not a bad character, but was wasted doing minor things that affected the plot once in a while, and is nowhere near as effective as either male lead. Not only that but she also makes REALLY dumb decisions, and the fact that she's the main female lead signals a subliminal message that girls in Japan are like that. If you recall, Mugen and Jin both were finding trouble as much just as much as trouble was finding them, if not more than. e.g. Destroying the tea shop over a misunderstanding in the first place. Fuu never did stupid and crazy things. |
sushi55 said: It does, but if you ask me Oreimo spends more time being an annoying incestous harem with otaku archetype girls than it does being sexist. I mean, Kirino may be a total bitch, but I don't remember any of the characters being demonized for being female. I'd need a second opinion though on this.@ihateeveryone OreImo still has a massive fan following and people who take it seriously, as sad as those people are. Hence why I still want it on the list. Pandora Hearts is a SHONEN where a female lead takes the spotlight more than the actual male lead. Is that not reason enough? Add to it's insane female appeal, from what fan-girls have told me, and you pretty much have a series that should definitely be on the list. Well.. if we DO add it, I'd like to nominate the manga considering the anime is an incomplete travesty, since you do have a good point about that. Though I'd like to point out that just because it has a large female following doesn't automatically make it illegible or feminist. You should see how many girls on Tumblr are fangirling over Diabolik Lovers, which is honestly one of THE most offensive series I've seen in terms of being sexist and I'd like for someone to please add it on here. (And it does get worse with this) It's not even debatable -- it's sexist, and if you don't believe me you can read some fan translations from the game or look at screencaps from the anime. |
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| Pro Tip: "Damsel in Distress' does not always = sexism. Lucy is a damsel in distress but I still consider her a strong character. |
aerg1997 said: I honestly wouldn't mind it being added actually. While its main point wasn't exactly sexism, the fact that the only girl that actually thought for herself and was remotely useful without a man was killed off so early on was pretty crappy.Can death note be added? All the females are either killed off without out mention, only doing things for some guy, or getting used and minipulated by some guy and being completely fine with it. |
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| I'd support Death Note too, dozens upon dozens of characters and I believe there was what, two female detectives involved? One who died extremely early and the other did nothing useful. Like Eve said, it didn't exactly display and promote sexism but the fact that they failed to include a single competent female was pretty inexcusable. |
| I am quite surprised that "Shigurui: Death Frenzy" is not on that list. Though the sexism in it is only justified in a historically accurate context, it still stands as almost pure exploitation of female characters no matter how you look at it. Just putting it out there. *shivers* |
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| Jody- You need to realize that this is, essentially, a girls' club. I doubt most of us have even SEEN Shigurui, so of course we wouldn't add it to the list because we have all only heard of it in name. We also don't maintain this the way we maintain the Ubers club, not yet anyway. So it shouldn't shock you that a lot of things are missing. In general though, I personally would like this list to focus on things girls watch / enjoy or that often get mistaken for girly series, such as Clannad or Nanoha (Though I don't remember how sexist Nanoha is per say). It should probably be a general rule that most seinen belongs on this list. That would be far too many series to list. Same reason I don't want to bother adding pure harems- It's just far too much to list. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is- I don't have a problem adding it, but don't be shocked that it isn't on there. It is not something most girls are going to pick up. |
| Death Note is definitely a sexist anime. For a breakdown on how it treats it's female characters go here: http://www.deviantart.com/art/Matsuda-s-Rant-Gender-Roles-51205173 |
| ^Good read, MemoBookworm (and welcome to the club by the way!), but I don't really understand the part about Mello, were people really doubting his gender? I thought it was pretty obvious he was a guy... Adding Death Note to the list, unless anybody has any evidence that it isn't a sexist series. |
| I have seen some confusion over Mello's gender although mostly from readers of the manga. I think that part of the comic was mostly tongue in cheek anyway. And thank you! |
| I was thinking of recommending Shaman King for the list of sexist manga/anime. I don't think I need to wait 'til I'm done to know that it's pretty damn sexist. |
Akichii said: - Shoujo Sect We could probably add most hentai on the list. What makes Shoujo Sect special? I don't remember anything too problematic in it, then again I don't remember much. |
Earwen said: Akichii said: - Shoujo Sect We could probably add most hentai on the list. What makes Shoujo Sect special? I don't remember anything too problematic in it, then again I don't remember much. I think the reason we put this one there was because of the hype it gets from guys and how they try to tell girls who enjoy cute yuri that they should watch it. Like, it's on this list BECAUSE people know about it and it actually gets suggested to women, which it shouldn't be. Same for Rin. Alaba- Could you explain what makes Shaman King sexist? Never seen it. |
| I don't know what (or who) is meant by Rin. I also don't think it makes sense to add Shoujo Sect to the list for being suggested to Women. As far as sexism in hentai anime it's better than most. What about Rance? I'm sure it's sexist. But I somehow doubt it gets suggested to women. Sorry. I'm just trying to understand how the list works. |
EarwenNov 21, 2013 2:23 PM
Earwen said: I don't know what (or who) is meant by Rin. I also don't think it makes sense to add Shoujo Sect to the list for being suggested to Women. As far as sexism in hentai anime it's better than most. What about Rance? I'm sure it's sexist. But I somehow doubt it gets suggested to women. Sorry. I'm just trying to understand how the list works. Oh you know what happened- Eve just kinda took anything on my list that I rated as an 8 or higher in terms of it's sexism level and put it there. I would agree Rance doesn't need to be there, she was just putting all those down for the foundation of the list and we haven't really tweaked it. |
| I think we should remake the thread since I dont use the account I used to make this thread and it needs to be revised. |
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| I'm still reading Shaman King, and it's still sexist. These sort of off hand remarks are common. http://i.imgur.com/Bmlx4Lt.png It should definitely be on the list. |
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