| "The time had come for Trapp to address the men and inform them of the assignment the battalion had received... Pale and nervous, with choking voice and tears in his eyes, Trapp visibly fought to control himself as he spoke. The battalion, he said plaintively, had to perform a frightfully unpleasant task. This assignment was not to his liking, indeed it was highly regrettable, but the orders came from the highest authorities...The Jews had instigated the American boycott that had damaged Germany...There were Jews in the village of Jozefow who were involved with the partisans, he explained...The battalion had now been order to round up these Jews. The male Jews of working age were to be separated and taken to a work camp. The remaining Jews---The women, children, and elderly---were to be shot on the spot by the battalion... if any of the older men (keep in mind everyone here is past military age, this is a killing police hes talking to-they're like ~40-60 most likely)-among them did not feel up to the task that lay before him, he could step out..." -Ordinary Men Out of the 500 men that were assigned to slaughter the village of ~1800, only about twelve decided against it. One was left behind in charge of guarding the barracks. What makes retired men-just like you and me-most with no affiliation to the nazi army slaughter the 1.5k men women and children in such a horrific way-and what is even more interesting-that the commanding officer gives the men the opportunity to drop the assignment-Trapp is basically the average German-it is safe to assume that almost all of the men would have faced similar inner turmoil while making a decision-and yet, why is it that only 12 men drop the assignment? Trapp gave explicit directions to the men what they would do (instantly kill women, children and the sick/elderly, bring the men to concentration camps) and a small percentage gave up the assignment What is the ordinary man? The man who would take the opportunity to be reassigned or the one who would take part in killing over a thousand people? The Nazi Party may have had plurality-but that is far from having a majority- most people at the time were anti-nazi party or ambivalent-What makes men like those kill over 15 million people in such a short time span? If you take the statement "Germany was pregnant with murder" and dissect it, can you get your answer? Germany had a crumbling economy with hyper-inflation-a broken government-anti-antisemitism- anti-European sentiment-nationalism to almost levels of fascism-we can rephrase this-Was Germany so fucked during WW2 that it had no choice but to kill? This raises up a few more questions-What is the whole? What is society vs. Individualism? Can the common mindset infiltrate the mind and break down individualism? A lot of people said that Hitler was the leader who instigated the mass murders-I would say no-the hate that the German people had would raise into power another man another party to the job- Are they ordinary men? What is it to be an ordinary man? |
| ~"The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands." (Pirsig) |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
| that was the other piece our teacher is going to discuss with us on Wednesday Well then, anyone else want to take a stab at it? |
| ~"The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands." (Pirsig) |
| There is only one answer and, that is to step forward and, to climb a mountain of corpses if you have to. Whether your the one who pulls the trigger or runs away away from the fight simply to pat yourself on the back and, say you didn't kill anyone to make yourself feel better makes no difference. Your supporting the cause simply by being in listed by them. If I'm to be labeled as monster who killed children and, women or who ever then, I would much rather become the monster rather then, trying to run away. There is no good guy without a bad guy. In away even the villain's are hero's for dying for the hero's cause. |
| The majority makes up the ordinary. It was nothing more than peer pressure, under the same conditions it would happen in any other country. Anybody could have taken Hitler's place. Il papa Innocentius II burned many Jewish people saying they were to blame for the black plague. History only repeats itself. |
 |
| It's better to be a conscientious objector and not get involved in the first place. By the time you're a part of the armed forces the battle is already lost. Alas, what is right is not what is normal. |
| There is no such thing as shit taste. Only idiots who think everyone should have the same taste as they do. |
MidnightPride said: If I'm to be labeled as monster who killed children and, women or who ever then, I would much rather become the monster rather then, trying to run away. There is no good guy without a bad guy. In away even the villain's are hero's for dying for the hero's cause. What kind of screwed up logic is this... |
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
NicoleB said: What kind of screwed up logic is this... Can you withhold your point of view with actual arguments or are you just going to bash? I agree on the later, but i probably wouldn't join in, i would drop out, it's not because i don't want to kill, i just don't see the reason to get involved in something i don't believe in, not all jews are bad not all jews are good, it's overkill to generalize like that even though i can understand that there wasn't time for a background check on each and everyone and even if there was it wouldn't have been enough. The question is, what is ordinary? Both of the factions were ordinary, to each their own. |
| Closer. |
| The ones who went with the flow are the ordinary, obviously. Just as Milgram's electrocution experiments shows, people easily bend to authority. And the Stanford prison experiment shows pretty well the effect of a "us and them" division and uniforms, even when there is no ill will between the participants initially. Naturally, there may very well have been a few monsters among the German soldiers, just as there were in the allied forces, but the majority were all ordinary people like you and me. After all, going with the flow and bending to authority and peer pressure is a evolutionarily beneficial trait, so it is only natural that it will be the most common behaviour in any given populace. kuuderes_shadow said: Indeed, what is right is that which is not left. But I don't see how directions have anything to do with this.Alas, what is right is not what is normal. ZaBici said: Still, in all likelihood, you would have joined in anyways. If not by patriotism and anger, then by peer pressure. And once you got into the uniform, you'd gradually adjust your own thinking and start accepting more and more "atrocities" in order to justify the things you had already done.Can you withhold your point of view with actual arguments or are you just going to bash? I agree on the later, but i probably wouldn't join in, i would drop out, it's not because i don't want to kill, i just don't see the reason to get involved in something i don't believe in, not all jews are bad not all jews are good, it's overkill to generalize like that even though i can understand that there wasn't time for a background check on each and everyone and even if there was it wouldn't have been enough. |
Baman said: Still, in all likelihood, you would have joined in anyways. If not by patriotism and anger, then by peer pressure. And once you got into the uniform, you'd gradually adjust your own thinking and start accepting more and more "atrocities" in order to justify the things you had already done. You're assuming i would just give in to peer pressure, i'm not going to discuss it but i'm sure you realize it's very subjective. However reading the last line got me thinking, i might have done it out of curiosity. |
| Closer. |
| My answer would be simple... Kill me with them. If I run away, I am still going to be thought of as a monster, weak person. On the other side I could never kill innocent people, so yeah, kill me. |
 |
| I don't get why people would call the person who ran away "weak", when he's the one actually making the decision to not be forced into doing something that he/she doesn't agree with. I think that's totally backwards, the weak person is the one who is influenced by others to the point they break their own moral "code" or whatever you want to call it. The strong person is the one who doesn't. |
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
| Actually then i'm going to change the question since we all love morality here What is culpability here? Can you blame the people who did these actions (even tho we know now that most people would kill the jews?) |
| ~"The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands." (Pirsig) |
| Yes, part of being an adult is being responsible for your own actions. |
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
NicoleB said: Yes, part of being an adult is being responsible for your own actions. I agree with this... I will never understand how can someone kill innocent people even when their life is threatened. If you kill someone you will go to hell/bad place (whatever you believe). No one will care if you were forced. If atheists read this, then I don't know the answer, still wouldn't do it xD |
|
| Don't give yourselves to these unnatural men. Machine men, with machine minds and machine hearts. |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
| I actually only know that speech because of a hardcore song it was sampled in, haha. That's how cultured I am. |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
ZaBici said: Well, is it really? It's nigh impossible for any of us here to be able to predict what we would do in such an outlandish situation. We may have our self images, but they are all based on our limited, and no doubt safe, experiences, so unless one has been in a similar spot, our opinions on our behaviour are nothing but conjecture.You're assuming i would just give in to peer pressure, i'm not going to discuss it but i'm sure you realize it's very subjective. After all, we don't really know ourselves properly until we've experienced our own action in every given situation, which, in short, is never. Regicide said: If it's a military matter like this, then obviously, the political and highest military authority should be the only ones with the culpa.Actually then i'm going to change the question since we all love morality here What is culpability here? Can you blame the people who did these actions (even tho we know now that most people would kill the jews?) People blaming the soldiers seem to forget one thing. Soldiers are tools, they are trained and equipped to follow orders and serve the purpose of their masters. Just like you would not punish the gun that fires the bullet, you should not punish the soldier that follows his orders. Some may argue that soldiers today are trained to be morally aware of their actions, and blablabla, but the fact remains that the military is a top - down structure of command. In many of the more realistic cases, if a soldier is ordered to open fire on "insurgents" or shell a grid that seems like a civilian area, it would be impossible for him to know everything that's going on. The order comes from the people with the intel, and beyond asking for a confirmation of the order and stating his doubts, there is little a footslogger can do when he does not see the whole picture. And that is precisely why soldiers are not supposed to go around second guessing orders. Sure, in some rare cases, it might be obvious that the order is shaky, like being ordered to kill clearly defenceless children on account of them being "insurgents", but there is a very blurred line between most realistic cases, and expecting every soldier to be readily able to identify sketchy orders is ridiculous. And let us not forget the massive propaganda of Hitler's Nazi circus. Few liked the Jews very much in the first place, having been historically shunned to varying degrees in all of Europe, and when your seemingly legitimate government that has done so much to help you and your nation to recover from the postwar rubble, states over and over that these people are awful Marxist collaborators, it's only going to be a question of time until most people start to fall into the "us and them" mode of thinking, and accept the claims, no matter how absurd. Hitler even wrote himself; "in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation" These things happen all the time in similar situations, just look at the Bosnian and Jugoslav wars. Once the "us and them" mentality is kicked into gear, ordinary people become frighteningly capable of brutality and violence they would otherwise not have dreamed of.Also, the German strategy by the end of WWII was pretty much a Total War scenario, where it was all kill or be killed, and with brutal terrorism being commonly used by every side in the war, whether it was the Malmedy Massacre, the fire-bombing of Dresden or the nukes. It is nothing but absurd for us who have known only peace, to conceitedly sit here over sixty years after and judge everyone that tried their best in a terrible situation that we cannot fully imagine. |
Baman said: Well, is it really? It's nigh impossible for any of us here to be able to predict what we would do in such an outlandish situation. We may have our self images, but they are all based on our limited, and no doubt safe, experiences, so unless one has been in a similar spot, our opinions on our behaviour are nothing but conjecture. After all, we don't really know ourselves properly until we've experienced our own action in every given situation, which, in short, is never. In short, you do agree it's subjective; However the difference is you leave your mark on the matter, I'm guessing you had your resolutions challenged in a smaller-scale similar situation? Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with your rationality, i firmly agree that we can't be objective until faced with the real thing, but i do feel a rather pessimistic tone. I said i won't but i will because it stands as an argument as to why i first contradicted you. I do not trust anyone, because i have not, to this day, met a person who was true to himself let alone others. It's the same reason why herd mentality stands up to why we wear clothes (disregarding cold); We're all alone and we should act accordingly especially when taking decisions. I rationalize just about everything and killing has always been a favorite topic of mine, and it's why i can say that most likely i would not act on someone else's whim. It's obvious that what i said isn't absolute, but we are not here to discuss relativism but individualism. |
| Closer. |
ZaBici said: I haven't, no, but I do know how easily one's opinion is changed once you participate in something, and even though I only studied psychology for a year, I picked enough up there to see how fickle the mind is. Again, the Standford Prison and Milgram's electrocution experiments show this perfectly.In short, you do agree it's subjective; However the difference is you leave your mark on the matter, I'm guessing you had your resolutions challenged in a smaller-scale similar situation? Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with your rationality, i firmly agree that we can't be objective until faced with the real thing, but i do feel a rather pessimistic tone. I said i won't but i will because it stands as an argument as to why i first contradicted you. I do not trust anyone, because i have not, to this day, met a person who was true to himself let alone others. It's the same reason why herd mentality stands up to why we wear clothes (disregarding cold); We're all alone and we should act accordingly especially when taking decisions. I rationalize just about everything and killing has always been a favorite topic of mine, and it's why i can say that most likely i would not act on someone else's whim. It's obvious that what i said isn't absolute, but we are not here to discuss relativism but individualism. Still, if you were in such a situation, everything would be quite different. And it likely would not be someone handing you a gun and asking you to shoot civies either, but a slow foot-in-the-door technique that slowly shapes you to accept the authority one step at a time.Maybe we would resist, maybe we wouldn't. The only certainty is that the majority and the most adaptable would not, so the question is whether we consider ourselves ordinary or not. It all boils down to this; Cottonrabbit said: Statistically, my chances are slim. |
| ITT. People who think they are not easily manipulated. |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
DeathCl0ck101 said: I think that we as people act foolish when in great numbers or groups. Individualism is partially thrown out the window in these sorts of circumstances. I'm sure that the majority of the soldiers were just afraid to disobey orders. And the ones who left only did so because one or two people were brave enough to say no. It's very similar to the mentality people still have this day. Like when someone is getting mugged in a city, most people think "ah, someone else will stop it". People rely on others to get the job done for them. I believe people are smart individually, but as a collective we are dumb as fuck! The bystander effect and diffusion of responsibility. This is the main reason behind Nuremberg Defense. |
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
| I wonder how much a grunt was paid back then to do this kinda work. |
| The Art of Eight |
Baman said: Still, if you were in such a situation, everything would be quite different. And it likely would not be someone handing you a gun and asking you to shoot civies either, but a slow foot-in-the-door technique that slowly shapes you to accept the authority one step at a time. Maybe we would resist, maybe we wouldn't. The only certainty is that the majority and the most adaptable would not, so the question is whether we consider ourselves ordinary or not. It all boils down to this; Cottonrabbit said: Statistically, my chances are slim. I believe statistics easier when they aren't directly related to me in fact i rely on statistics, in this case however i am not one of the masses or at least i would put up more of a psychological fight then the others. I understand what you mean by "a slow foot in the door" and how powerful this can be, but it's exactly the little things that get to attract our attention, it just depends how you deal with your realization and where your character comes into play, i find it thrilling to be on the minority and succeeding in the end because it makes it that much more significant, i'm a romantic like that. But what it does boil down to, so far, is me(and by" me" i mean it as objective in the context as possible) and them, is it safe to assume you consider yourself one of "them"? |
| Closer. |
ZaBici said: That would depend on the context I guess. I imagine I would be able to look past some brutality for a cause I believe in, or at least accept, but I could never envision myself as a silent collaborator in, for example, a revolution to instigate a theocratic regime. But in the end, it's all just conjecture of course.But what it does boil down to, so far, is me(and by" me" i mean it as objective in the context as possible) and them, is it safe to assume you consider yourself one of "them"? |
Mageking said: "Was Germany so fucked during WW2 that it had no choice but to kill?" Are they ordinary men? What is it to be an ordinary man? You might find this interesting, Mageking. http://www.wisegeek.com/were-there-non-nazi-german-soldiers-in-wwii.htm Also, there was massive amount of propaganda. He programmed paranoia in the minds of German citizens by organizing public parades in which Hitler executed speeches that displayed the power of the German military. The German people were mesmerized and amazed of his apparent power and power of persuasion. He also used fear tactics that prevented those who disagreed with him from working against him. He jailed the educated and burned literature that didn't follow along with his philosophy. This was possible because Germany was involved in an economic slump when Hitler came to power. I personally believe that you should take responsibility for your actions but my beliefs don't make the facts of his mass phycological tactics any less true. |
| you can actually tie this into something really interesting then the nuremberg trials worked on the assumption that if you had orders that were immoral you had to decline them or you would be sentenced bloodrequiem's study (i wish he didn't post it tbh tho i guess its so famous someone knew about it) says that 2/3 of people will follow orders to killing another person-therefore 2/3 of people in all situations would be sentenced under the trials |
| ~"The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands." (Pirsig) |
Mageking said: Yet another reason why the Nuremberg trials were a pathetic farce.you can actually tie this into something really interesting then the nuremberg trials worked on the assumption that if you had orders that were immoral you had to decline them or you would be sentenced bloodrequiem's study (i wish he didn't post it tbh tho i guess its so famous someone knew about it) says that 2/3 of people will follow orders to killing another person-therefore 2/3 of people in all situations would be sentenced under the trials |
| Those who would know what good taste in manga is. |
 |
v8 said: Those who would know what good taste in manga is. Are you this bored. |
 |
Spooks_McBones said: v8 said: Those who would know what good taste in manga is. Are you this bored. Trying to resurrect. |
|
| We're just ordinary people. We don't know which way to go, so take it slow man. *Keeping threads alive since '14 |
| Holy necro, batman. |
| Fucking humans are fucking creature who are loves to judges the other fucking humans based on their own fucking standards... And fucking ironically, we are that fucking humans... FUCKING DEAL WITH IT BRO!!!! |
| WEABOO SCIENTIST |
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