Heisig Debate

Mistral said:

I've never seen "ohayou" written in kanji. Plus it just doesn't look right: simple greeting should be written with simple hiragana. So it's おはようみんなさん（皆さん）.
Next part: どうぞよろしく is usually written at the end of your self-introduction. More proper is はじめまして　<few words about yourself, your name, hobby, etc.> どうぞよろしく.
わたしは日本語だいすき is also not fully correct. Before (だい)すき　there should be particle が. I bet that in slang lazy Japanese can omit this particle but you can't! lol So correct version is わたし　は　にほんご　が　だいすき。
And my small advice for you: don't bother with kanji now. If you don't know them or don't have good dictionary with yourself then there is no need for you to use them at this level. You don't even need them in conversation with Japanese on Skype because they will use roomaji If you ask them to do so. Focus on hiragana, katakana and grammar now.

sleepyday said:
I have to disagree with you Mistral. It's the mindset that one can "skip" Kanji that leads to many frustrations.

I've learned all 1,945 常用漢字 and some of the 人名用, for a total of 2,042 漢字. Basically, when I'm browsing the Internet and learning sentences, I'm not afraid of the kanji anymore. Plus, it makes kanji that I didn't learn yet easier to pick up. For instance, the kanji for the word "who" (誰), is one of the kanji that comes in the third volume of Heisig's books, but I was easily able to remember it's meaning and writing just by seeing it used in a sentence. Likewise, I can do this for kanji like 儲 in the word 儲け, as in the phrase: 彼は金儲けがうまい。(彼は金もうけがうまい。)

This is the result of the immediate completion of Remembering the Kanji 1. Basically, you learn the 2,042 kanji in it, meaning and writing. Then at the end, in lesson 56 it teaches how to learn new kanji as you encounter them. This is a valuable asset, and I would never go back. I'm so relieved that I have the general use characters under my belt. And, I advise everyone to do the same, because it's pretty nice looking at a wall of Japanese text and saying, "At least I know what all those Kanji mean."

And, one more thing.. Never study grammar to produce sentences. Focus on learning the Kanji, then the Kana, and then you can focus on learning to speak aloud and write by hand 10,000 grammatically correct Japanese sentences that you take from sources made by natives for natives. In doing this, you will gradually acquire the language, instead of "learning" it. Because learning it, that's what you do in school, according to Stephen Krashen (expert in linguistics).

Anyways, Kanji are that important. If you go to Japan, they're everywhere. You best get them out of the way early on and not have to worry about it. :)

Mistral said:
Ok, maybe I expressed what I meant wrong. The thing is that it's better for him to use no kanji rather than use it in a wrong way. Just because it can lead to many misunderstandings. かみ can be written in like 10 different ways (you will find even more if you are bored) and writing "I believe in paper" instead of "I believe in god" may look a little odd. Oh my Paper[sic]!

I won't say that your method is wrong because I just started trying RTK 1 and I can't judge whether it's good or bad. In my opinion it's just better to know few basic phrases, gramatical rules first, if you want to start your adventure with Japanese. Even by studying those, you subconsciously learn basic kanji because you have them in examples attached to gramatical notes (if you don't then change your book)

hikky said:
こんにちは、みんなさん
僕はたった今部を入りました。多分この部の方よりもっと高いレベルかもしれないが、これからもよろしくね。

僕のばあいは、今もっと珍しい語彙や漢字を勉強しています。

とにかく、どんなレベルでもがんばってね。

Oh, by the way, I really don't recommend getting into the Heisig/RTK stuff. The only useful thing you can glean from that is remembering what the kanji look like, the meanings are next to worthless really, kanji have multiple compounds and meanings and readings and so forth.

midori- said:
yeah that's what I think. I use iit so i can write it. some of the meanings he sticks on are just iffy/wrong...( like if you actually know words with whatever kanji and seeing the word he attached on) or they just way to english-y.

but I think it's a really good way to learn to write (not stsroke orders per say, cause the instructions for writing are very bare/meager). Honestly, drilling it doesn't work, it doesn't matter if you write it 1000 + toimes yoiu'll stilll forget and blank out on how to write. but reading/reocgnizining is another thing.

Mistral said:
Well, I have to agree with hikky. I've just scanned through second volume of RTK and it's really bad. Just a simple word like 大使館 probably won't be read properly by someone after completing vol 1 and 2. Even by looking at those kanji it's hard to guess the meaning. Big, use, building? It can be just everything, but obviously, those are kanji for word "embassy".
RTK can be a little help with learning because it consist stories which helped me memorize shape of kanji. Other than that, in my opinion it's useless.

sleepyday said:
Have the three of you even completed the book, while pairing them with spaced repetitions daily? If not, then you don't have any room to talk. You'd be surprised how much knowing all of those Kanji really can do for you. I can list out a few experiences of my own that will likely happen to those that complete the first volume:

1. I never have trouble recalling any string of Kanji for a word. The Kanji are compounded in a logical order, and knowing the meaning of them individually assists in the recall of the entire word(s).

2. Walls of Kanji are intimidating to the beginner who hasn't worked through Heisig's book. I have no such fear when looking at them. I'm ready to take them on, because at least I have clues to their meaning.

3. You get used to seeing Kanji and become familiar with all the different shapes. This helps again in the recall of compounds and individual words.

4. You learn over 2000 Kanji that are needed in everyday situations. This is invaluable to anyone that plans on gaining native-level fluency. You have to know these Kanji, and Heisig is the way through them.

5. You feel more comfortable in your immersion environment (for those that have one). For me, I spend an awful lot of time on the internet. My browser, e-mail, home page, and other software is in Japanese. Many times I have looked at the Kanji compounds in these areas and was able to analyze their meanings from my work with Heisig and the preemptive knowledge of the applications and understand the compounds and words used. This was even while I was working through Heisig's book. It felt like a victory to me, and those are important.

6. The meanings assigned to them are not necessarily meanings. They are keywords to give the specific connotation of each Kanji. For example: 旬 is said to mean "decameron" (which is absolutely correct) but can also hold the meaning of a "10day period" (which is exactly what a "decameron" is) and a "season" in the sense of the following sentences: 旬である。 and 旬でない。(Be in season and Be out of season, respectively). This connotation of season is referring to something like a season for specific product, like fruit or fish. But the connotation of "decameron" given by Heisig makes the connotation of "season" pretty apparent.

I had the same reaction as you three, but I was going to do it anyway. I told myself, at least by the end of it, I'll know how to write all these Kanji and know what they mean, at the very least. When I got to 川 in the book and it said "stream," I had initially learned it as meaning "river." It made sense, but it didn't feel right. But I said to myself, that Kanji have multiple meanings, but one general connotation, and this captures it. So I moved on, and now I know a significant amount of Kanji, I'd say. This puts me and others that have completed the book at a distinct advantage. See #7..

7. Those that complete the book know the general use Kanji, how to write them and what they mean. The fact that they are aware of each and every general use Kanji is invaluable. Heisig does this for you. All in one book. His second book is designed to give you a reading for each (the on'yomi, which is most popular). Those that complete the book are at an even greater advantage than one who only learns the material in the first book. Heisig says that recognition of the characters (Character -> Meaning/Reading) comes naturally through writing them. This is definitely true. And, working through the second book is likely to strengthen that. The third book just does the same thing, only adding more characters to the mix, first learning their writing and meaning and then learning a reading. One can do that, or they can learn the way I am, which is a step-by-step approach to the readings. (AJATT way of things).

8. Confidence in writing words with the IME. I've typed words from time to time that produce Kanji on the IME. Before Heisig, I would reconvert them back if I didn't know them. But now I can say with confidence which Kanji go with the words I'm typing because their meanings do the work for me. For example, はじめまして, is used in greetings as we all know, but can actually be written 初めまして. Heisig gave the Kanji 初 the connotation of "first time" which is accurate because this greeting is only used when meeting someone for the first time. You wouldn't know that if you didn't know the meaning of the Kanji there. But, I do because I worked through Heisig. There are alternatives to knowing that (i.e. - Looking it up), but are you going to do that with every Kanji, every time until you know them? Or would you rather know them ahead of time and have that confidence? I choose the latter.

9. I could go on all day about these things. For instance, one other reason I could mention is that if you work through it entirely at once, you build up an iron will that carries you through to fluency. I don't know this from experience, but I know that learning nothing but Kanji for days and days on end, every single day anxiously awaiting completion but being patient at the same time is enough to build up the will to keep going after that.

10. Finally, for a tenth good reason, it's Japanese. That should be all the reason you need to work through it. It's not going to hurt you to know all the general use Kanji and then some, so why not do it? Because you think that it doesn't help your Japanese directly? Well, only knowing the writing and meaning does quite a bit for me, and I'm sure it will for others.

I don't expect you to change your ways, but I suggest you lay off the nasty comments about Heisig and his books. Those that have completed the book(s) are at a much greater advantage than those who have not worked through them. I know ChaoticHoshi spent over five months on the book, I spent a little under three, and firebound12 is still working through the book as well, having spent over a month on it. You all have no right saying that this was wasted time. It's disrespectful. And, frankly, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. You haven't finished the book, so therefore you don't know the benefits.

firebound12 said:


From personal experience, I would say:

1. You will learn how to write the stroke order. In the first book, Heisig shows all the stroke orders of all the first Kanji, but afterward he slowly stop showing you how to write them and at the end only show stroke order when it's either not obvious or totally new. From what I can say, you will know how to write them at a certain point without him showing how to write in order. Not only me, but my brother, all my Asian friends and all those who can write Chinese characters could possibly write any character in the right stroke order even if it was new. Well, I said all this, but most of you guys know this already. I don't see why you blame Heisig being "Bare/meager" for the writings.

2. I am not sure if you're defining "drilling" as in writing it 1000 times in a row. If this is what you're trying to say, then you have misunderstood both Heisig and Khatzu's methods. Heisig didn't tell you to drill 1000 times in a row, but to put in flash cards. Of course, he didn't know about SRS back then. That's where Khatzu's method comes in. SRS is used specifically to "drill" but in a way that's make memorizing a hell lot easier and waste less time on reviewing uselessly. Go to site info to get more info on SRS. On the other hand, if you're talking about SRS's "drilling" not working, then... you're completely wrong. Because you do remember all of them only by RECALL, and not recognition.
Recall is much more better than recognition if you want to memorize. If you want to talk about the psychology of this, I could, but I don't feel like it right now. However, I can tell you examples of this. I have Psy and Socio class. My Psy exams uses multiple answers type of question. My Socio exams uses memorizing the definitions by heart. After writing those exams, I couldn't remember, for example, Psy's definition if it was in multiple answers. However, I can still remember quite well the definition in the socio exam because I have recalled, and much better: I used SRS, which engraved the definition in my memory. Here's the proof of a definition that I learned 2 months ago and have never practiced it again till now: Society: "A large group of people who shares the same geographic location and have the same political policies".
Of course, the goal to memorizing those kanji is to read them afterward, so you still have to mix both of them together.



Meanings in the first book are suppose to be very very general and not specific. If it's not the main meaning, then at the very least it's one of the meaning. And contrary to what you may prejudge, 99% of the meanings are worth it. I started playing games only in Japanese, and could get the general meaning by only looking at the kanji and respond correctly to it. The 1%? Well, it's the doubt that comes from not having practice all kanji and not having started the sentence phase. Anyway, stop focusing on the 1%, but rather on the 99%.



I have to say that obviousness is very subjective. Some people might find it so obvious that they wouldn't understand why others can't get it. I had difficulties even in the first book to get the story right for some kanjis, but if really stuck, I look at others' stories and see if one could be useful to create my own.

EDIT: Also, for the number of repetition per kanji if we use Khatzu method, it is really worth it. I'll estimate that to complete Heisig's first book with SRS, you'll need around 15 000 spaced repetitions in total for around 2000 kanjis so that they're mature and have 95% of chance to recall every single one of them correctly (probably 99% recognition). That's 8 repetition per kanji average! Ok, if you want, let's try with 20 000 or even 50 000. 10 to 25 repetitions per kanji. Still very far from a thousand times.