Sword Art Online (light novel)
Devilry said: At the end of the day, the chief proof that she is a sexist construct is the fact that she can be highly attractive to men, but be a terrible role model for women at the same time. I'd call that more irony than sexist. If anything I think it adds to her character hah. |
Devilry said: 1. The damsel in distress is only one way in which women can be negatively stereotyped, out of many many others. If Asuna's ability to save Kirito against his will were enough to make her a fair portrayal of women, then Mirai Nikki wouldn't be one of the most sexist animes of all time. 2. It doesn't matter if Asuna has a life completely independent of Kirito that isn't shown in the anime. If it isn't portrayed, then they're basically just telling us that they don't think it's important in our understanding of her character. At the end of the day, the chief proof that she is a sexist construct is the fact that she can be highly attractive to men, but be a terrible role model for women at the same time. I dont get wtf you are talking about anymore She is a terrible role model because she loves Kirito?Her lover? Because she can cook and she is a beauty? You feminists have lost what your goal was long ago. So what if she was made to be attractive to the male audience?How is that offensive or a terrible role model for women?HAve you ever looked at other rmedia?So what if she has every fetish of the otaku community?Which is far from the Yamato Nadeshiko you made her out to be.The otaku's dream girl isnt the Yamato Nadeshiko of the normal japanese.If Asuna's role offends you so much take this thread change Asuna's name and copy paste it in almost every shounen show in MAL . |
| I think the only part of her of being a "not so great" role model, is the fact that she's a bit overly dependent on Kirito and her emotions are kinda a big mess at times. Hence why Suguha is more the role model girl in the show if you ask me. |
Tsundereppoi said: When I saw the title of this thread I was like "lolz", and when I saw the OP i went "What the fu....." |
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hyperknees91 said: I think the only part of her of being a "not so great" role model, is the fact that she's a bit overly dependent on Kirito and her emotions are kinda a big mess at times. Hence why Suguha is more the role model girl in the show if you ask me. When you say dependent you mean that she wants to be with him all the time? Because what she has done during their relationship in their honeymoon is nothing for the femi nazi to cry about.I mean really?How many couples exist that act like them(Yui excluded) exist IRL?Many.If the OP thinks that this is bad then it's his/her(probably her) problem. Many women(and men) would be happy to have a lovey dovey relationship.Of course for her I am wrong and being sexist. If she thinks that it's unfair for "ugly" women that Asuna is "perfect" thats again her own problem. |
ssjokgOct 29, 2012 6:25 PM
JavierR said: Thats sexist.Women have the power to rape men too.i actually just read the first post and i lol'd sugou has the power to rape her? what a gangster. Doesn't every male have the power to rape a woman |
Takana_no_Hana said: whatever123456 said: Can't remember that, really? Even if he brought his weapon, Asuna was strong enough to handle the monster alone. She's also one of the top player in SAO. And I believe that lake monster wasn't possessed any thread to endanger the top player. Their stats were extremely high, Kirito would survive if he was bite. He just didn't have the weapon that do damage to the monster. Kirito would handle him alone too. His "Punch Skills" were high. |
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| Why are we arguing over a wish fulfillment? |
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ihateeveryone said: Because someone didnt get her wish fulfilled Why are we arguing over a wish fulfillment? |
JavierR said: ssjokg said: JavierR said: Thats sexist.Women have the power to rape men too.i actually just read the first post and i lol'd sugou has the power to rape her? what a gangster. Doesn't every male have the power to rape a woman idc what anyone has to say if a guy gets raped by a women, then they are a bitch. Perfectly sexist you are then. |
hyperknees91 said: JavierR said: idc what anyone has to say if a guy gets raped by a women, then they are a bitch. Perfectly sexist you are then. I would say it is beyond sexist, but downright misogynistic. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| I have to agree that SAO may have aspects that can be considered sexist. This show should almost have harem as one of its genres considering the first 7-8 episodes were Kirito building up his harem. With the exception of Asuna, none of the women are exceptionally strong or involved in the front lines where it is shown almost exclusively to be men fighting for Aincrad. However, there is one episode that debunks this notion. It is episode 6 where Grimrock kills his fiance because she changes in the game. He claims that before she was "The ideal wife pretty, submissive, we never had a single fight" but when they got into the game she became more confident and showed a different side to her. Asuna slams into him pretty hard claiming that "You didn't feel love for Griselda-san, You only wanted to possess her". If SAO truly had the message that women should only carry traditional feminine virtues what Asuna said is a fairly damning indictment of that message. To send the message to Grimrock (and more broadly to men in general) that women are not property that need to conform to a man's ideal is to destroy the typical otaku fantasy and to say that it is a flawed and potentially dangerous ideal -- as it was with Grimrock because his ideals led him to murder Griselda. Females in the anime aren't particularly 'confined to the kitchen' or any such nonsense that anyone with a sexist agenda would imply. Asuna is one of the most powerful warriors in all of Aincrad. Lisbeth runs a successful blacksmith shop and is doing quite well for herself in the world. Even Sachi who started off as scared and incapable in the story eventually succeeds in being a front line attacker for her guild, whereas a more "traditional" view of her role in combat would be in the back (or none at all). To take another example would be where Kirito is on the verge of being killed by Kuradeel in episode 10. He is completely at the mercy of Kuradeel at this point and none of his skill or talent at the game will do him any good in this situation; his life is forfeit. Kirito played the damsel in distress in this instance, he was totally helpless and would be dead had not Asuna come to his rescue. Where the bulk of these complaints probably stem from is the "cabin" episodes from episodes 11 on to the final arc episode. Asuna and Kirito form a pseudo-family in game with Yui and Asuna is mostly portayed loyally carrying out wifely duties. I can see how this portrayal of a once high-level front line warrior reduced to keep house can produce an outcry. I see it as more of showing a different side to Asuna than the proud and fierce 2nd in command of the most elite guild in all of Aincrad, that she is also capable as a wife and as a "mother" to Yui while still maintaining every ounce of her effectiveness as a fighter. It is not that Asuna is forced to choose between being a strong fighter and a good bride for Kirito, it is that she never has to choose at all. The choice I recall her (and Kirito) making is between being satisfied with a good life in game and seeing the real world again -- it is this choice that I think was the most important in all of SAO, perhaps even the purpose of the story. Should they choose complacency to live in their happy little forest home, or risk it all for a chance to return to the real world. My point is that her choice of either leaving or staying in the forest home, continuing to be a dutiful wife or again becoming a battlefield commander, had little to do with her gender but more to do with what she wanted as a person out of life and if life in SAO was enough to fulfill that desire. As the outcome of the arc shows, it was not but that is a discussion for another topic. This is an anime that has romance and romance is one of the genres that traditional gender roles still thrive. I do not think that sexism plays a part in these decisions, Asuna is not confined to her gender roles but rather transcends them. She is able to be financial stable, have a great career (as a guild leader) and be revered as a powerful warrior all continuing to do the things she wants to do (ie. cooking and making house) not for Kirito's benefit but because it is what fulfills her, contrary to what one would think of a woman that took on roles traditionally thought of as outside her gender (ie. a girl who likes baseball must be a tomboy so she can't like traditional girl stuff like pretty clothes -- I apologize for the use of this example in advance, but I struggle to get my point across without the use of this allegory). My final point in all this is that portraying females in traditional gender roles does not always constitute as sexism as in SAO's case. There may be some aspects that can be seen as sexist such as the aformentioned harems and lack of women on the front lines but as a whole, the show does not carry a sexist agenda because it clearly breaks the sexist agenda's ideals with examples throughout the series. |
EMChampOct 29, 2012 9:26 PM
| EMChamp's Anime Blog: http://emchampanime.wordpress.com/ |
| ^ The best post in this thread !!! For those who lack even the small amount of patience to read through the post, the short summary is these words in the post " portraying females in traditional gender roles does not always constitute as sexism " though his point about Asuna's choice about happy married life in the game and highly risky fight to try to get back to real life is also a very worthy read. @EMChamp, I salute you for spending your time to post this well-argued and sincerely expressed analysis to share with us. I do not always share the same aversion against "generic" anime or harem work like you do (to me, generic is not a negative word) but here I agree every points you presented and how this anime should be perceived. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
Devilry said: 1. The damsel in distress is only one way in which women can be negatively stereotyped, out of many many others. NEGATIVELY stereotyped. What? How is that negative? For whom is it negative? In all cultures of the world the feminine image was always perceived as an object of admiration for its beauty and fragility. It is natural to want to protect and/or rescue what is beautiful and fragile. What kind of twisted form of feminism treats the pros of females as cons? Additionally, a vast number of women would actually prefer to be saved and protected, rather than having to save and protect. It's just how the world is, and quite a lot of men and women likewise prefer it the way it is, so get over it. |
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Devilry said: EMChamp said: I have to agree that SAO may have aspects that can be considered sexist. This show should almost have harem as one of its genres considering the first 7-8 episodes were Kirito building up his harem. With the exception of Asuna, none of the women are exceptionally strong or involved in the front lines where it is shown almost exclusively to be men fighting for Aincrad. However, there is one episode that debunks this notion. It is episode 6 where Grimrock kills his fiance because she changes in the game. He claims that before she was "The ideal wife pretty, submissive, we never had a single fight" but when they got into the game she became more confident and showed a different side to her. Asuna slams into him pretty hard claiming that "You didn't feel love for Griselda-san, You only wanted to possess her". If SAO truly had the message that women should only carry traditional feminine virtues what Asuna said is a fairly damning indictment of that message. To send the message to Grimrock (and more broadly to men in general) that women are not property that need to conform to a man's ideal is to destroy the typical otaku fantasy and to say that it is a flawed and potentially dangerous ideal -- as it was with Grimrock because his ideals led him to murder Griselda. Females in the anime aren't particularly 'confined to the kitchen' or any such nonsense that anyone with a sexist agenda would imply. Asuna is one of the most powerful warriors in all of Aincrad. Lisbeth runs a successful blacksmith shop and is doing quite well for herself in the world. Even Sachi who started off as scared and incapable in the story eventually succeeds in being a front line attacker for her guild, whereas a more "traditional" view of her role in combat would be in the back (or none at all). To take another example would be where Kirito is on the verge of being killed by Kuradeel in episode 10. He is completely at the mercy of Kuradeel at this point and none of his skill or talent at the game will do him any good in this situation; his life is forfeit. Kirito played the damsel in distress in this instance, he was totally helpless and would be dead had not Asuna come to his rescue. Where the bulk of these complaints probably stem from is the "cabin" episodes from episodes 11 on to the final arc episode. Asuna and Kirito form a pseudo-family in game with Yui and Asuna is mostly portayed loyally carrying out wifely duties. I can see how this portrayal of a once high-level front line warrior reduced to keep house can produce an outcry. I see it as more of showing a different side to Asuna than the proud and fierce 2nd in command of the most elite guild in all of Aincrad, that she is also capable as a wife and as a "mother" to Yui while still maintaining every ounce of her effectiveness as a fighter. It is not that Asuna is forced to choose between being a strong fighter and a good bride for Kirito, it is that she never has to choose at all. The choice I recall her (and Kirito) making is between being satisfied with a good life in game and seeing the real world again -- it is this choice that I think was the most important in all of SAO, perhaps even the purpose of the story. Should they choose complacency to live in their happy little forest home, or risk it all for a chance to return to the real world. My point is that her choice of either leaving or staying in the forest home, continuing to be a dutiful wife or again becoming a battlefield commander, had little to do with her gender but more to do with what she wanted as a person out of life and if life in SAO was enough to fulfill that desire. As the outcome of the arc shows, it was not but that is a discussion for another topic. This is an anime that has romance and romance is one of the genres that traditional gender roles still thrive. I do not think that sexism plays a part in these decisions, Asuna is not confined to her gender roles but rather transcends them. She is able to be financial stable, have a great career (as a guild leader) and be revered as a powerful warrior all continuing to do the things she wants to do (ie. cooking and making house) not for Kirito's benefit but because it is what fulfills her, contrary to what one would think of a woman that took on roles traditionally thought of as outside her gender (ie. a girl who likes baseball must be a tomboy so she can't like traditional girl stuff like pretty clothes -- I apologize for the use of this example in advance, but I struggle to get my point across without the use of this allegory). My final point in all this is that portraying females in traditional gender roles does not always constitute as sexism as in SAO's case. There may be some aspects that can be seen as sexist such as the aformentioned harems and lack of women on the front lines but as a whole, the show does not carry a sexist agenda because it clearly breaks the sexist agenda's ideals with examples throughout the series. Ok, this is a good response. I forgot about that episode. I don't think it entirely redeems SAO, because the griselda-type is at the very far extreme of the spectrum, like the kind of 'women belong in the kitchen' jokes that nobody takes seriously nowadays, so it's easy to condemn such a viewpoint no matter where you stand, sexist or not. I think a majority of fanboys who still continue to demonstrate very sexist tendencies still prefer the Asuna-type over the Griselda-type, as evidenced by this thread. Speaking of which, I'm quite horrified by some of the personal attacks laid against me. Apparently, from what I have posted, it is possible to infer that I am a really ugly girl who turned to feminism because I'm jealous of Asuna-like girls who are far more popular with the boys, and I'd like to believe that these women are portrayed degradingly so that I may be at peace with myself. If SAO is supposed to run counter to the typical sexist otaku's desires, then it doesn't appear to be working. After all, I'm quite sure that my looks are average, and I'm fairly capable of catching the attention of the kind of men who actually know how to treat me right, thank you very much. Loljk I'm a guy. It doesnt matter if you were ugly or quite attractive if you were a girl.Your problem is that Asuna,like almost every female lead is portrayed as a beauty/attractive woman with many skills(cooking etc)for all men.How is that sexist I dont understand. Logic that I try see in feminist's words: Writer creates a useless female lead:Sexist Writer creates a useful female lead:Sexist Writer creates an non attractive female lead(twilight):Sexist Writer creates an attractive female lead:Sexist Writer creates a loyal to her lover female lead:Sexist Writer creates an cheating whore:Sexist Unfortunately I fail to see the logic there. You want a "normal"female MC?They are very few and at least for me they are way less interesting than any of the types I mentioned earlier. And I am sorry but what kind of logical man would like a woman who is either attractive and useless or ugly and again useless?Because no matter her looks if she fails in everything else I cant believe that it's because of her bad fate(like in anime)but because of her being an arrogant bitch that wants everything ready for her. Kirito or any fanboy that likes Asuna has any right to do so now(even if she is the worst of the females in SAO).If she was TOTALLY USELESS but with the same appearance and she was again loved so much then that would be really sexist. |
| Well well, looks like this troll thread was successful. |
Devilry said: Speaking of which, I'm quite horrified by some of the personal attacks laid against me. Apparently, from what I have posted, it is possible to infer that I am a really ugly girl who turned to feminism because I'm jealous of Asuna-like girls who are far more popular with the boys, and I'd like to believe that these women are portrayed degradingly so that I may be at peace with myself. If SAO is supposed to run counter to the typical sexist otaku's desires, then it doesn't appear to be working. After all, I'm quite sure that my looks are average, and I'm fairly capable of catching the attention of the kind of men who actually know how to treat me right, thank you very much. Loljk I'm a guy. Did anybody call you a girl? I only recall people referring you as a feminist but there are no lack of male feminists in this world, right? I do not think your view about feminism is out of the norm (at least not in America) but I question your interpretation of gender relationship and female position in this anime. It is not particularly feminist, but it is far from being sexist either. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
symbv said: Devilry said: Speaking of which, I'm quite horrified by some of the personal attacks laid against me. Apparently, from what I have posted, it is possible to infer that I am a really ugly girl who turned to feminism because I'm jealous of Asuna-like girls who are far more popular with the boys, and I'd like to believe that these women are portrayed degradingly so that I may be at peace with myself. If SAO is supposed to run counter to the typical sexist otaku's desires, then it doesn't appear to be working. After all, I'm quite sure that my looks are average, and I'm fairly capable of catching the attention of the kind of men who actually know how to treat me right, thank you very much. Loljk I'm a guy. Did anybody call you a girl? I only recall people referring you as a feminist but there are no lack of male feminists in this world, right? I do not think your view about feminism is out of the norm (at least not in America) but I question your interpretation of gender relationship and female position in this anime. It is not particularly feminist, but it is far from being sexist either. I did. |
| ^ The second best post in this thread after EMChamp's (below) http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=510701&show=280#msg18052903 |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
ssjokg said: ihateeveryone said: Because someone didnt get her wish fulfilled Why are we arguing over a wish fulfillment? Who're you talking about? |
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petalshreds said: you took asuna too seriously. Im with this. So, she is only a character and SAO only an anime. |
| 1) You took this way too damn seriously! 2) ... I'm gonna be blunt because of how overly dramatic you took this ---> your stupid (maybe not literaly but you know what I mean. ... You crazy women, lol 3) this is anime, not a book/novel (an anime is japanese so wtf do you expect from the japanese) SAO is the way it is because its SAO, a story is the way it is because the creator made it the way it is. So your taking this so seriously is very stupid. |
| a story is the way it is because the creator made it so to the way it is of his choice. Get over it. |
waalex11 said: 3) this is anime, not a book/novel (an anime is japanese so wtf do you expect from the japanese) I wonder what do you mean by the above? |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
ihateeveryone said: ssjokg said: ihateeveryone said: Because someone didnt get her wish fulfilled Why are we arguing over a wish fulfillment? Who're you talking about? I thought the OP was a woman and that the anime doeasnt "appeal to women". symbv said: YEah wtf?waalex11 said: 3) this is anime, not a book/novel (an anime is japanese so wtf do you expect from the japanese) I wonder what do you mean by the above? |
| Jokers everywhere |
| Sword in hand, a warrior clutches stone to breast. In sword etched he his fading memories In stone, his tempered skill By sword attested, by stone revealed. Their tale can now be told |
DarthAbysius said: I agree that she doesn't have the same depth as certain other characters, but that doesn't make her a bad character. Who are those other characters? |
| Nice topic as for me. I like serious discussions ^_^ I'd like to say few things on that topic. 1. People are not equal in their abilities. Genders are not equal either. Thats how nature forged us. So I think there is nothing bad with sexism in anime or novel. May be I am sexist myself then? XD A lot of girls from the early age dream about how to be a wonderful brides, play some games with toys like Barbie and so on. They are being prepared for the role of wifes and they dream of it in reality. However it is up to their choice what to do anyway. So why is it bad to girl to behave like that in anime? To learn cooking, etc. Actually i have decent MMO playing experience and i can say girls there DO a lot of unnecessary stuff like cooking that male players never will. 2. From point 1) you get that Asuna being trapped in cage is not a bad plot twist. Why not really? Yes she is like a prize there. Kirito have to save his beloved to be happy with her. I guess there are a lot of fiction stories with alike plot. You may imagine completely reversed situation. Asuna wakes up in ep. 14 and Kirito is still sleeping. Asuna starts investigation and discovers that he is trapped in other MMO. Her quest is to save him somehow. This didn't happen as main hero is Kirito there, that's all. 3. About Asuna herself. Yes she is perfect which seems unnatural. I thought about it myself while watching anime. But creating perfect characters is what fiction is about, right? There is nothing bad in it. Lot of authors use pure archetypes in fiction to state some problems/situations. 4. SAO has some harem traits in it. So we can say it is for males as harems are for males. Then nothing strange in the fact that female lead is a bit unnatural character. You can call it a targeting. If you make harem/action anime then you should make a lot of attractive girls there right? To satisfy your clients (male watchers). 5. There was a lot of discussion on Kirito duelled Heathcliff to 'free' Asuna. I see this situation in quite a simple way and it seems very realistic to me. Heathcliff understood that Asuna can leave at will. He was not intended to keep her by force or anything. She could leave at any time really. But she is a responsible person and she was second in command. That means that she didn't want to just leave on her own. She had to somehow solve this situation for guild not to suffer. That is basically how it works in any company when people are resigning. In that case Heathcliff as a wise leader performed a manipulation trick on them. He tried to appeal to masculine part of Kirito and succeeded! Kirito without much thinking agreed to pointless duel. Asuna simply had no time to react in that dialogue. So Heathcliff used that situation to get Kirito to his guild as the strongest fighter. If you dont agree then I guess you dont have enough life experience. With proper skills basically any person can be manipulated... Sad but true. |
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Shiveron said: Man you're looking way too deep into this shit. Are you a critic? Do you get paid to do this? No? Then just enjoy the fucking show like the rest of us. Or, if this is bugging you that bad, don't watch it. I think Asuna is an awesome character, she compliments the MC nicely, and I like that she's become an object of affection to the MC, and that it's become the driving force behind the story. It looks more like the OP isn't deeply thinking about it at all. The OP is just going "Look a female character doing stuff that's not saving the world alone. That's sexist!" Gender roles aren't sexist. They are just the general ways a society views the sexes and do change depending on the culture and era. |
Anime_NameOct 30, 2012 2:27 PM
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| I do not believe it is a Harem .. lol In fact, I KNOW it is not a Harem .. |
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vbyo said: What do you think of Silica, lizbeth and suguha? random annoyance?I do not believe it is a Harem .. lol In fact, I KNOW it is not a Harem .. |
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lionheart04 said: vbyo said: What do you think of Silica, lizbeth and suguha? random annoyance?I do not believe it is a Harem .. lol In fact, I KNOW it is not a Harem .. Generally Harem's are unresolved romances between multiple people, of course there are girls that Like him, but because he has someone he has cared about for a long time and is the main drive of the story. Or a "love circle" of multiple people generally fighting over 1 person.. That is not the case here. I really don't see how it is related to a Harem at all. |
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| Judging that a show is sexist is just beyond absurd when critiquing it. All that matters if it sucks or not. |
GonzyChanOct 31, 2012 6:21 PM
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waalex11 said: 3) this is anime, not a book/novel (an anime is japanese so wtf do you expect from the japanese) .... *horrible supergiga facepalm* For your information, SAO IS a novel and the anime is AN ADAPTATION of the novel. I've read this thread so far and I can't agree more with Devilry or AirStyles and obviously, people can't argue without swearing... Devilry said: Beauty Is Never Tarnished - Check Females Are More Innocent - Check Feminine Women Can Cook - Check Girls Love Stuffed Animals - Check (if you see the ending art) Mandatory Motherhood - Check My Girl Is Not a Slut - Check Women Are Delicate - Check Let me list more tropes specific to Japanese culture that, to me, are just as worrying: Tsundere - Check School idol - Check Cry Cute - Check Tender Tears - Check Action Girl - Check Aggressive Submissive - Check You forgot something! One almosttothenipple show of her breasts every episode after she's with Kirito (okay I may be exaggerating), but come on. First, you have the super zoom on her when she undress herself (which and the misunderstanding was totally unnecessary/obvious and etc.) then, when they're married, she cuddle him in her "pajamas" that is hot lingerie showing the side (and most entirely the side) of her breasts... I mean come on. I'm NOT against fanservice itself, it's just that when I'm watching SAO, I'm not here to see some innocent girls breasts in a "non-correct" way. Even shonen Naruto does it correctly: the Sexy Justsu in the early serie was for the fun, Tsunade's cleavage is part of the character. But with Asuna, nothing, just plainly free. I've known that SAO was created when the author was a teenager and it's why I can forgive him for making a very poor character development light novel. What I can't understand, it's the unnecessary popularity this anime got. They just said "It's a MMORPG" and everyone ran up out of curiosity, but removing the fact that it's an actual MMORPG... and it's gone. Poof. Nothing original, just a... fantasy world. I mean, come on, an ice world, a flower world, swords and magic skills, monsters... replace the "technology" by "magic menu" and it's done. I do hate the fact that people are complaining now about SAO being a harem... but they some didn't see what's coming next! GOD! IT'S GETTING BIGGER! EVERY girl that Kirito will meet (and he'll mostly meet girl 85% of the time) will fall in love with him. And worst, I've read this for the third season AND before you start screaming. Calm yourself. I've got basically nothing against Harem-type mangas/animes/light novels (I'm a fan of Ken Akamatsu myself and I think it's pretty obvious that his mangas are about harems and fanservice). It's just that when I want to watch a Shonen for the action, the story and character development, I don't really like to see underdevelopped girls falling in unlogicable love with the main character so he's more perfect than he already is... I'm here for the action. Yes, there can be romance, but it's TOO MUCH (horrible) romance. EMChamp said: Females in the anime aren't particularly 'confined to the kitchen' or any such nonsense that anyone with a sexist agenda would imply. Asuna is one of the most powerful warriors in all of Aincrad. Lisbeth runs a successful blacksmith shop and is doing quite well for herself in the world. Even Sachi who started off as scared and incapable in the story eventually succeeds in being a front line attacker for her guild, whereas a more "traditional" view of her role in combat would be in the back (or none at all). First of all, know that I totally see your point, but this one really bugged me. Lisbeth may be a blacksmith, but as we know, you can lvl up in SAO by only being a merchant. Lisbeth clearly doesn't have any skill and no battle strategy (a super giant monster is there? better show him I'm here a totally weak! Sorry, I had to say that). With the craft system in the game, even if she cooked, made weapons, made armors or just sewed, it would have been the same thing: get components (which she obviously didn't get herself, maybe early game, but after that she probably used trade), put tool on components and BANG you have your cake/sword/boots/dress. Lizbeth surely just chose the business that'll make her get more money, because I suspect people to repair their equipement more often than buying a new shirt. As for Sachi, her genius guild leader said "Hey Sachi, you're the most mentally weak person in our group, better trade your weapon for being our shield/sword tank!". Thus, as we know later in the episode, it wasn't her choice. Even with the shield/sword, Sachi barely did anything other than screaming and Kirito going in front of her killing the monster, as the other members said something like "You should train more, we can't let Kirito do all the work!". After this, she got back to her regular long red staff (she was fighting with it when she died), making this also invalid as even if she was at the right place, she didn't do anything. |
MaoMeoOct 31, 2012 11:53 PM
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Chekchie said: One almosttothenipple show of her breasts every episode after she's with Kirito (okay I may be exaggerating), but come on. First, you have the super zoom on her when she undress herself (which and the misunderstanding was totally unnecessary/obvious and etc.) then, when they're married, she cuddle him in her "pajamas" that is hot lingerie showing the side (and most entirely the side) of her breasts... I mean come on. I'm NOT against fanservice itself, it's just that when I'm watching SAO, I'm not here to see some innocent girls breasts in a "non-correct" way. Even shonen Naruto does it correctly: the Sexy Justsu in the early serie was for the fun, Tsunade's cleavage is part of the character. But with Asuna, nothing, just plainly free. I've known that SAO was created when the author was a teenager and it's why I can forgive him for making a very poor character development light novel. What I can't understand, it's the unnecessary popularity this anime got. They just said "It's a MMORPG" and everyone ran up out of curiosity, but removing the fact that it's an actual MMORPG... and it's gone. Poof. Nothing original, just a... fantasy world. I mean, come on, an ice world, a flower world, swords and magic skills, monsters... replace the "technology" by "magic menu" and it's done. I do hate the fact that people are complaining now about SAO being a harem... but they some didn't see what's coming next! GOD! IT'S GETTING BIGGER! EVERY girl that Kirito will meet (and he'll mostly meet girl 85% of the time) will fall in love with him. And worst, I've read this for the third season AND before you start screaming. Calm yourself. I've got basically nothing against Harem-type mangas/animes/light novels (I'm a fan of Ken Akamatsu myself and I think it's pretty obvious that his mangas are about harems and fanservice). It's just that when I want to watch a Shonen for the action, the story and character development, I don't really like to see underdevelopped girls falling in unlogicable love with the main character so he's more perfect than he already is... I'm here for the action. Yes, there can be romance, but it's TOO MUCH (horrible) romance. EMChamp said: Females in the anime aren't particularly 'confined to the kitchen' or any such nonsense that anyone with a sexist agenda would imply. Asuna is one of the most powerful warriors in all of Aincrad. Lisbeth runs a successful blacksmith shop and is doing quite well for herself in the world. Even Sachi who started off as scared and incapable in the story eventually succeeds in being a front line attacker for her guild, whereas a more "traditional" view of her role in combat would be in the back (or none at all). First of all, know that I totally see your point, but this one really bugged me. Lisbeth may be a blacksmith, but as we know, you can lvl up in SAO by only being a merchant. Lisbeth clearly doesn't have any skill and no battle strategy (a super giant monster is there? better show him I'm here a totally weak! Sorry, I had to say that). With the craft system in the game, even if she cooked, made weapons, made armors or just sewed, it would have been the same thing: get components (which she obviously didn't get herself, maybe early game, but after that she probably used trade), put tool on components and BANG you have your cake/sword/boots/dress. Lizbeth surely just chose the business that'll make her get more money, because I suspect people to repair their equipement more often than buying a new shirt. As for Sachi, her genius guild leader said "Hey Sachi, you're the most mentally weak person in our group, better trade your weapon for being our shield/sword tank!". Thus, as we know later in the episode, it wasn't her choice. Even with the shield/sword, Sachi barely did anything other than screaming and Kirito going in front of her killing the monster, as the other members said something like "You should train more, we can't let Kirito do all the work!". After this, she got back to her regular long red staff (she was fighting with it when she died), making this also invalid as even if she was at the right place, she didn't do anything. 1st paragraph: Are you serious?About all?Kirito was starring at her thus the zoom.It wasnt some obscure panties angle.It isnt part of the character to cuddle with her lover?Wow!!I guess all the lovers across the world are out of character when they are together.And you obviously dont know what ecchi fanservice is if you think that this is ecchi.No Naruto doesnt do it correctly.Literally he uses his Sexy no Jutsu to show that men would do anything to see a pair of boobs even if the one having them was a guy.It is sexist, just not for women.Tsunade's cleavage is not part of the character's personality but of her appearance. The series could have worked even without it(See Hinata). Plain free?Inside their house where nothing was even shown? 2nd paragraph You know shit because that is a rumor by the "haters".Nobody knows his age.Stop talking about things you read in another post and do some research yourself.IF you read that from a reliable sourse then post a link here.Also forgive him?That means you are a better writer than he is.The worlds of MMOs ARE fantasy worlds in case you didnt know.The entire scifi genre is fantasy until that fantasy is made real IRL. 3rd Are you just trolling?They all decided to marry him?*facepalm*And btw everyone,or maybe the only other 2 that ARE in love with him gave up.WE BARELY EVEN SEE THEM IN THE STORY in the LN.Instead of reading shit people post here or in other hate threads do your own research by reading the LN. 4th Blame the creators of the anime that made it look like the best action show ever and for the underdeveloped chars(both female and male) .SAO never was about action. 5th Lizbeth isnt weak.She is weak for the front lines and floors way higher than she is.She CAN kill monsters and lvl up and gather other materials. 6th Why is it strange if she was the front liner of her guild but also scared?Fear doesnt go away just because you powered up a little.All the members didnt do anything... And if you think that this: Beauty Is Never Tarnished - Check is what defines sexism ok....Men better not think about "dream girls".If we had Kirito at least being a prick that has "perfect" Asuna but asks more then maybe you had a point.Females Are More Innocent - Check Feminine Women Can Cook - Check Girls Love Stuffed Animals - Check (if you see the ending art) Mandatory Motherhood - Check My Girl Is Not a Slut - Check Women Are Delicate - Check Let me list more tropes specific to Japanese culture that, to me, are just as worrying: Tsundere - Check School idol - Check Cry Cute - Check Tender Tears - Check Action Girl - Check Aggressive Submissive - Check Females Are More Innocent - Checkshe was the one that though that Kirito wanted sex.Also it's clearthat she talked with other girls about that stuff. Feminine Women Can Cook - Check80% of the women(of the civilized world) know how to cook something the other 20% learns how to.Also she knows how to cook like a chef only inside the game. Girls Love Stuffed Animals - Check (if you see the ending art)She also likes to have lesbian orgies wth Yui and Liz if you see fanmade art.Even if the ending art was made by the creators it isnt canon as many times it is random Mandatory Motherhood - CheckNext time I hear a girl saying that she wants to be a mother or she even sayss how cute the baby of a stranger is I will punch her in the face for being sexist towards her own gender. My Girl Is Not a Slut - CheckYou saw a lot of men going after Asuna in the series after she and Kirito became lovers? Women Are Delicate - CheckIsnt that what the whole world thinks?Many times I wanted to beat the shit out of certain women but didnt because we ALL KNOW how everyone reacts to that.If people didnt think that women are delicate they wouldnt create mobs hunting down anyone who dares to lift a finger on them. Tsundere - CheckEvery girl in 70% shounen shows had shown this at least once.If you count as tsundere when she was embarrassed when he grabbed her breast then that goes to 90% School idol - CheckWhen was she ever depicted like that?She goes to a school for rich people yes but we get zero info about it.We dont even know if she is teh school's #1 student. Cry Cute - CheckEVERY ANIME GIRL/WOMAN that isnt in a seinen show.Probably. Tender Tears - CheckSee above Action Girl - CheckWouldnt it MORE sexist(if it ever was)if she wasnt in the front lines or at least fighting a bit? Aggressive Submissive - CheckAre you saying that women should be totally open to sex?That is sexist. Also basing anything about a show on Tv topes?Ok... |
ssjokgNov 1, 2012 3:33 AM
| One thing I want to stress is that the End Card in the anime after each episode should never ever be considered canonical. It is more like officially recognized (and commissioned) fan art. |
symbvNov 1, 2012 2:06 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
wishbook said: zaladinos said: TS came here just to post one comment and use tvtropes as evidence. Not very convincing. He has a point though. Asuna is the gratification of Japanese male's concept of an ideal woman. She doesn't have a flaw. She's pretty, athletic, rich, able to cook, a bit tsundere, a girl gamer, faithful, all that without losing her vulnerable side. A perfect Yamato Nadeshiko. That's right, so why are people hating on this series? We still have quite a fair while to go in the series at least, I'm sure things will change for the better or for worse. And can we stop calling this show a harem, It's not in anyway shape or form a Harem. |
|
wishbook said: zaladinos said: TS came here just to post one comment and use tvtropes as evidence. Not very convincing. He has a point though. Asuna is the gratification of Japanese male's concept of an ideal woman. She doesn't have a flaw. She's pretty, athletic, rich, able to cook, a bit tsundere, a girl gamer, faithful, all that without losing her vulnerable side. A perfect Yamato Nadeshiko. And what's wrong with it? Heroines from Mitsuru Adachi's manga for example are all like that for example. It is not something new or even undesirable. Just like the heroines in the famous manga by Adachi it does not stop the works from having good and touching drama, and it certainly does not stop independent-minded women from aspiring to those characters. If anything, America would do well to stop inserting "flaws" into characters they create just because they think it always make the characters more "realistic". |
symbvNov 1, 2012 2:22 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| What sticks out to me in regards of the cooking argument is the fact that cooking was lengthly described as a rather useless skill, yet it seems like the author made Asuna have it just because she is a woman. Obviously she had to master it, because after all she has to be a good wife and a good wife is able to serve her husband delicious meals. At least that's the impression many people have gotten from that scene. And purity is obviously meant ina way that she is/was a virgin until she met Kirito. Look at Kannagi and the rage that followed the reveal of Nagi's "boyfriend"; Japanese men.., or rather, otakus have a strong obsession over purity and of course the author caters to it. |
| Jojolion anime when? |
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