Muslims and Irreligion (Atheism, Agnosticism, etc)

j0x said:

well thats just my stance since like i said time and time again war is unfair and the ones who should be blame the most is who started it

JetFury said:
Im not sure thats the reasonable view you believe it is. If Israel creates the conditions that lead palestinians to desperation and in turn retaliation can it really be said they are mostly responsible for the recent/future conflicts?

Well lets create one example that follows that logic using the present situation then shall we....

Your household and mine have been in conflict with each other for many years. One day your brother decides to bomb my house, killing those I care about. Were I to bomb a quarter of your home from the safety of my own, killing some of your family members in the process and maiming the rest that might make you angry enough to try to retaliate again.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28439404

So I choose to send 20 people to stop you from hurting me and mine. You might think thats unfair but theres nothing you can do about it since there are more of them, they have weapons and have your place surrounded, preventing escape.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/31/gaza-borders_n_5630811.html

Now you might be thinking "maybe I should call the cops?" Well theres also no electricity left so you cant.
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Israel-Electric-Corporation-cuts-off-power-in-Palestinian-cities-for-second-time-392163

Besides the cops are actually funding my endeavors
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.611001

Eventually you resign yourself for the time being. You still have some food to survive on and maybe some materials to rebuild the parts of your home I destroyed. You can always try calling one of your friends to send you some relief as well. But you forget theres a list of things I wont allow in to your home.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_imports#Post-June_2010
http://circanews.com/news/israels-restrictions-on-palestinians

Now whats left of your household is getting fed up with their living conditions and decide to try to attack me again. They manage to kill some of the guards I had stationed outside your house. Maybe you weren't directly responsible for that, but you might have enabled them to do so. As a result I decide to retaliate(once again breaking intl law) against all of you
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marjorie-cohn/israel-palestine-collective-punishment_b_5589208.html
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/collective-punishment-gaza
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment#Israel

This continues back and forth for a long time and sure I probably went overboard a few times in my response. Perhaps broke a neighborhood law or two but I was standing my ground in self defense since you attacked first. Also I want your house bruh.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/13/us-un-gaza-rights-idUSTRE78C59R20110913
http://rt.com/news/236023-gaza-rebuild-oxfam-israel/
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/only-5-5-4-billion-aid-pledged-gaza-received-says-palestinian-government-official-1488547

j0x said:


what im saying also is that you go to extremes too if you consider conspiracy theories as source of truth, when in fact its just like that type 1 errors or in more simple terms false alarms/warnings, conspiracy theory just like delusions are guesses at best, guess and guess until someday a situation will prove it right



so as long as more Palestinians are killed then the Israel side is the terrorists? war is unfair dude, what most matter in war is who started it in my honest opinion, for me you can blame whose side started it

the DailyMail is still a good source of news, the only thing i heard that discredit the DialyMail is when they reported that Global Warming is false, what makes the DailyMail not reliable to you?

and ye we are getting offtopic but that is how discussion threads are anyway

j0x said:


who should stop first then? the initiator or the victim? and again thats just the cruelty of war this is simply not just terrorism this is happening for a long long time now and it goes back to the centuries if im right

Israel wants to takeover the territory of Palestine, and Palestine wants to takeover the territory of Israel if im getting the whole history right both of them do not like each other so its time for either one to go out of that territory and in this case whoever wins the war can stay

MitchD said:
What Israel is doing is terrorism, it fits the definition perfectly.

archerzee said:
No, I look at conspiracy theories as exactly how they are meant to be looked at, theories! If you possess enough knowledge, you can either accept a theory or not (depends on your standards of education, reliability etc.)
I never even mentioned about CTs being a source for truth.

archerzee said:
So by that logic, if some murderers kill some youths from my town, we should eradicate of 1000 people in the other town where the murderers are from?

archerzee said:
Regarding all this nonsense about 'who did it first', as if it's a school playground fight, I'll leave you with this quote:

“History is always written by the winners. When two cultures clash, the loser is obliterated, and the winner writes the history books-books which glorify their own cause and disparage the conquered foe. As Napoleon once said, 'What is history, but a fable agreed upon?”

Dan Brown, The Da Vinci Code

j0x said:
exactly that is why if you possess enough knowledge about a subject then you can know whats false or not

j0x said:
you never mention conspiracy theories being a source of truth but you are open to accept conspiracy theories like 9/11 was an inside job that has no evidence or the evidence is a top secret info from your perspective? if this is the case then sorry to say you are going with uncertainty tactic like immaahnoob mention earlier, everything is uncertain so why do you believe in god then if anything is uncertain, you should be agnostic at least

j0x said:
and exactly its like a school playground fight, its a clash for beliefs or resources like territory like 2 group of kids fighting over the right over the playground

archerzee said:

Exactly, so do you admit you were wrong to say conspiracy theories are delusions?

archerzee said:

No, it's been awhile since I've read up on the 9/11 CTs, some videos sound convincing and I am open to changing my view about who did it if substantial proof is available. Furthermore, there is no such thing as 'uncertainty tactic', that's just a made up term on rational wiki which is an atheist wikia. Stop trying to divert the discussion to another topic, what we were discussing isn't relevant to my beliefs, I was just pointing out your error in judging conspiracy theories.

archerzee said:

There is only one side which is fighting because of beliefs and that is Israel and the Zion movement, this isn't a conspiracy, it's literally out there, read the 19th century to 1920 section, it gives a brief introduction on matters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#19th_century_to_1920

j0x said:
im going for the more reliable source of info and conspiracy theories with their track record are not reliable source of info, delusions simply means strong false belief despite evidence contradicting that belief so its applicable to call conspiracy theories as that because conspiracy theories do not die easily

j0x said:
since we are talking about irreligion in the first place

j0x said:
you know my stance is that the one who first attack is the one to be blamed, but i never intended to look so much on long long past history like that, i just brought out recent history of who started this new war of Israel vs Palestine and thats it so i never intended to look at all the history they have, living in the past is blocking progress/future

j0x said:
i asked you too whats the solution you have in mind to this war then, because for me i only see mass migration for the losers since clearly they do not want to have their own official borders because they hate each other because of religion and battle for resources like territory

archerzee said:

You go back and forth with reliable source of information, humble yourself and accept that theories are theories, some derive from intelligent people whilst others derive from people who are deluded. The first post I made regarding this discussion was exactly that; theories are theories, some are right and some are wrong, let's not stereotype every single thing on this planet.

archerzee said:

I wish I did, although I don't think Israel won't settle for anything less than occupying Palestine.

j0x said:
i keep repeating the same thing to be honest because you never have contradicted it yet, what is a reliable information to you then? to me a reliable information is the one that is proven to be right time and time again

j0x said:
and are you implying that scientific theories are just normal theories when you say that some intelligent people form theories as well?

j0x said:
if a doctor is known to have a bad record in treating patients will you still call that doctor reliable? same logic applies to conspiracy theories and worse this conspiracy theories like i said again do not die despite contradicting proofs so its same way with delusions

j0x said:
the same is true with Palestine they will not stop unless they take back all their lost territory

j0x said:
it is a discussion about relibale information, if you view CTs as good source of info then i do not think we should continue this long debate anymore

j0x said:
so you gamble? like if there is 99% chance you will lose the next round of gambling play you still go for the 1% chance of victory and lose tons of money in the process

j0x said:
if that is your mindset about weighing information then time to end this debate with you

j0x said:
not at all, doctor 1 has 80% success rate, doctor 2 has 50% success rate, doctor 3 has 20% success rate so i will still go for doctor 1 here

j0x said:
again war is unfair so even children are not spared, you and others that side with palestine are simply sympathizing with them because they are the underdogs at the moment, what if its the reverse and that Palestine has the superior military power and that they killed many Israel kids would you change your mind? will you feel bad about Israel thesame way as you feel bad about Palestine at the moment?

archerzee said:


No it's not a discussion about reliable information, we are talking about CTs. Conspiracy theories aren't necessarily a source for information.

archerzee said:



I'm not sure if you're trolling or you're just ignorant, mind the negative remarks but how do you come up with these conclusions? I can read a theory and make my own mind up on whether or not it is true, you can look up on how a theory is valid on google.

archerzee said:



I suggest you take your time and digest the information I have given you. The moment you mentioned 'gambling' is when you completely went off the rails.

archerzee said:



How does that relate to our discussion, you're gambling with the doctors now. You need to humble yourself.

archerzee said:



Yes we know that war is unfair, but it still doesn't justify the atrocities committed by Israel.
Of course I'll be saddened if any children are killed, I do not hide behind 'war is unfair' to somewhat overshadow the killings of civilians, let alone innocent children.
Maybe OT but in Islam no such harm is allowed, regardless of potential dangers, as the Prophet (peace be upon him) mentioned regarding the non-combatant population is concerned such as women, children, the old and the infirm, etc., the instructions of the Prophet are as follows: “Do not kill any old person, any child or any woman” “Do not kill the monks in monasteries” or “Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship.” During a war, the Prophet saw the corpse of a woman lying on the ground and observed: “She was not fighting. How then she came to be killed?” Thus non-combatants are guaranteed security of life even if their state is at war with an Islamic state. That's Shariah Law regarding war, any rational man could see the difference in mercy between this and what Israel are doing. You can of course carry on and mention the 'war is unfair' litany.

MitchD said:
What Israel is doing is terrorism, it fits the definition perfectly.

j0x said:
and that is my point CTs are not sources of information because they are not reliable source of information, yet you keep claiming this what if CTs are true then we should not disregard CTs, we are choosing whats reliable information here not going with low percentage of possibility

j0x said:
a theory is a speculation or formal guess in normal definition, scientific theory is different with the theory you are implying

j0x said:
not at all, you see you imply that we should never neglect CTs because there is small chance that it may end up to be true thats why i relate your implied logic with gambling

j0x said:
i give an example that low success rate or bad record of doctors is similar to gambling which doctor you will choose, same logic with CTs, they have low success rate to be facts and bad records to be the truths so CTs should never be your choice when looking for truths and in the doctor example you never go to a bad doctor, its like you choose the doctor with the 20% success rate that is similar or have lower truthfulness of a CT

j0x said:
you can keep mentioning that Islam is the religion of peace but for the past decade since 2001 that is not the case right now, action speaks louder than words and this terrorists like ISIS and many more are using Islam to do violence

im not saying all muslims are terrorists but as the saying goes most major terrorists at the moment are muslims, we have muslim terrorism in our own country too so you can see more my point of view on this matter

archerzee said:

Anyway, what I'm saying is, if you're not lazy, you should read some conspiracy theory and make up your own conclusions of it.

archerzee said:

Read the article I posted about 'Theory', it's obvious that you haven't even read it.

archerzee said:

Nope, we should read the theories simply because if we don't, we won't have knowledge about what it says, duh. You're the one playing guessing games with CTs, there isn't one conspiracy theory, there are many, stop painting them all with the same brush.

archerzee said:

The truth is the truth, good or bad records are irrelevant. Another flaw in your argument is you have no statistics to back up your claim regarding the % of proven CTs, in fact, we don't even have records for every single CT that has been made. But still, hypothetically speaking, if the % of proven theories were only 5%, it still means that CTs aren't delusions. The other 95% are wrong and their arguments are debunked, simple. With your understanding, scientific theories which have been debunked should also mean that science isn't a reliable source of information.

j0x said:
i did it was about 9/11 and now i forgotten about it because it was never proven to be true and it does not make sense when Bin Laden already claimed that he is the mastermind behind the attack

j0x said:
i did and i just simplified it to a speculation or formal guess and the theory definition of wikipedia is different with conspiracy theory defined in wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory just because you see the word theory does not mean its defined as a theory thats not how words work

j0x said:
you can form a generalization out of the success rate of CTs

j0x said:
and you have no proof to backup your claim about 9/11 being an inside job, as you said there are countless CTs but only few are proven to be true, you do not need formal statistic study for that you can form generalization just by looking at those observation, and there you go again claiming that we should never neglect CTs because for example 5% of them maybe true and that is a lot to believe in CTs

j0x said:
and that is when you are wrong about scientific theories being debunked, scientific theories are facts because they are observable in nature they are not just guesses or hypothesis, there is truth about them because the results are reproducible, the only way to say that scientific theory is no longer one is when its not reproducible anymore on a situation, because a scientific theory to become a law should be applicable to all kinds of situation where its possible to apply it

archerzee said:

I haven't read much about the 9/11 theories but I definitely won't take your word for it.
There are always people who claim to be the assailant, Jack the ripper's case had some people who claimed to be the killer, it doesn't necessarily say anything.

archerzee said:

That doesn't mean anything since I explained what a CT was, and how some theories are right, whilst others are debunked, are you too arrogant to admit you were wrong in saying that CTs are delusions and paranoia?

archerzee said:
Generalise with what? How many theories have you even read?

archerzee said:

1. Why are we arguing about the 9/11 CT when we are talking in general?
2. Who's observations are we going by? Yours? Some saying silly things.
3. You can neglect if you want, that's called being ignorant.

archerzee said:

You're the one lacking knowledge, read this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superseded_scientific_theories
The article mentions how a scientific consensus once commonly accepted but now no longer considers the most complete description of reality, or simply false.
The methods in scientific theories are different from CT, obviously; they are usually related to politics not science.

archerzee said:

Stop being arrogant, become more rational!

icirate said:
Don't apply statistical analysis on the trends in acceptance of scientific theories or conspiracies to determine if a specific conspiracy is true or not. That's retarded.

You look at these things on a case-by-case basis.

j0x said:


with that logic psychiatrists should look at the case-by-case basis of the delusions of schizophrenics but that is not the case, this schizophrenics simply drugged. Just like delusions, conspiracy theories do not die despite evidence against the belief. So why should we consider them?

icirate said:

Firstly, looking into a patient's individual background is a very important aspect of the diagnosis and treatment of mental illness. Secondly your writing is really hard to understand. Did you mean what I rewrote in bold? If so I agree with what you're trying to say there, with the caveat that any conspiracy that's possible to disprove should remain in consideration.

As for 9/11, there's no use believing in that conspiracy. Even if your government is hoodwinking you, they didn't need to pull off such an elaborate scheme. They invaded Palestine and have caused endless conflict in the middle east. It was only a matter of time before they received some degree of retaliation and whatever it was would have been a good enough excuse for them to go to war. They just got lucky that it ended up being such a spectacle.

I have detected that people who believe in one such theory tend to believe in many other equally improbable and often contradictory cabals. This observation has recently been confirmed empirically by University of Kent psychologists Michael J. Wood, Karen M. Douglas and Robbie M. Sutton in a paper entitled “Dead and Alive: Beliefs in Contradictory Conspiracy Theories,”
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-people-believe-conspiracy-theoies/

j0x said:
again with that small possibility that CTs are true so we should not neglect them

j0x said:
i do not need to read every CTs out there, earlier post you provide 5 CTs that are proven true but how many are CTs being formed? countless as you said so in that observation alone you can generalize that CTs do not have a reliable truthfulness, the possibility of CTs being true are low, CTs are sometimes true but thats it, sometimes

j0x said:
1. im giving example that you implied you believe in
2. the observation of the majority
3. now you are throwing insults, whats ignorant is believing on low possibility of becoming true, thats how gambling works

j0x said:
@archerzee

lets just stop this thing about conspiracy theory, clearly you will not change your mind and after i read about that scientific study about it i will not change my mind either, let this thread die or let it discuss other things

elros75 said:
On a side note, Raif Badawi, the Saudi blogger sentenced to 10 years in prison and 1,000 lashes, is to undergo a retrial for apostasy. If found guilty, he will face the death penalty.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/raif-badawi-the-saudi-arabian-blogger-sentenced-to-1000-lashes-may-now-get-the-death-penalty-10077877.html

j0x said:


he will die, R.I.P.