| The nen was plagiarism on hamon Hisoka was inspired by Dio(part 3) the Technic of Gon (jajanken) was inspired by the stand user, named Boy 2 Men (part4) Zeno Zoldyca share resemblances to Wang Chan The power of Bomber strangely resembles at Kira Yoshikage Stand. Anamuna and Kaitô Yu on Yuyu are inspired by the Arby brothers (part 3) Mitarai is inspires by the stand N'Duul(par 3) The limitation of power of the Sensui arc is like the Stand There are probably other point of inspiration. It is my point that I'm getting. Your famous Togashi took so much stuff at Jojo that you can't said think like that.Jojo was at the summit in 90 for shounen, but Araki has evolved and style are not really a shonen since the part 7. |
x5exotic said: I have never agreed with you more. It sounds really stupid to say that since someone hasn't read the manga that they should shut their mouth and are not allowed to post in a thread on the anime discussion board about the current progress of an anime.KiraYoshikage said: Well, I must say one thing first. If you have not read the manga, do not come respond because those who read the manga know very well respond to your comment. When the stand begins, the fights are more original and it is a lot better than other shonen. For those who do not know the manga, you should shut your mouth. You have not seen a fraction of Jojo. If you're not happy with that and do not agree that Jojo was a shonen who inspire others mangaka, although you bounded. Araki and Toriyama are the two that inspired the mangaka nowadays. 1) This is the anime section, so no. We do get to talk as much as we'd like. Manga section is on the other side, go there. And with that, so far JoJo is a good anime, not great though. The powers are interesting, the story is ok. I don't know how I feel about the changing of generations so fast. |
     Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
| I'm talking about the work in general and it is better to talk about original version which is much better. I just mean those who are ignorant. We must go to the source and for that we must speak of the manga. It is very sensitive to based solely on the anime because Jojo become popular with the Stand. If you read the manga you should know that Parts 3 to 5 are not far. Just about everything that comes from Part 3 and more, everything change. Therefore, it is not appropriate to judge the two first part which are separate from the rest of the manga. |
| Having read Jojo from start to the end of SBR awhile back, I can say it's far from the ideal of any genre. It's made up of a lot of generic cliches, tropes, and stereotypical cast members who magically win every battle (aside a few times specifically for the story to pretend to "take an unexpected turn" which has, in the area of battle shounen, become hilariously typical) and some EXTREMELY unoriginal writing. Is it entertaining? Some parts - the parts that don't focus on shounen aspects (read as; part 4) are actually good. The rest is pretty goddamn bad and is akin to Touma meeting Naruto and Ichigo and having a festival of generic shounen protagonists instead of just one. It's basically like every other battle focused shounen out there, the only difference is the age of the main cast is a bit higher and the art style is a bit older. The writing, character designs in terms of how they are written and their personalities, settings, motivation, way the fights play out, way the fighting is done to begin with, and so on is all EXTREMELY generic - which could be fine if it was that way with some amazing writing or something unique to it, but it lacks that. It's just a pile of cliches and been-done-a-billion-times tropes and a very overdone writing style. Jojo is fine, but it's far from anything special or something to use as a guiding light. It's an every day run of the mill battle shounen, just with different style art. |
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| But isn't JJBA considered seinen? I mean, it was considered shounen in the 80's, because 80's was a lax time, but by today standards it would definitely be a seinen series. |
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| @MagnumBookworm You are correct. However, Part 1-6 is consider Shounen. It was then move as Seinen in Part 7+. Although I don't really know how the system works though. 80s and before it have some of the most graphic anime scene. Mod edit: removed off-t |
koleareMar 1, 2013 2:30 AM
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MagnumBookworm said: But isn't JJBA considered seinen? I mean, it was considered shounen in the 80's, because 80's was a lax time, but by today standards it would definitely be a seinen series. This is a shonen until Stone Ocean (SO is limited shonen) and this is after he becomes more a seinen. where the change to go into the magazine Ultra Jump |
MagnumBookworm said: But isn't JJBA considered seinen? I mean, it was considered shounen in the 80's, because 80's was a lax time, but by today standards it would definitely be a seinen series. Seinen and Shounen are demographics - it's only based on what magazine it's published in. Jojo was in Shounen Jump for most of it until a (kinda) recent move into a different publication. Nothing else determines something as shounen or seinen or any other demographic. |
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TallonKarrde23 said: which could be fine if it was that way with some amazing writing or something unique to it, but it lacks that. Jojo is lacking something unique to it. LOL! The overall style of the serie, the stand and the clever fights occuring because of it are not unique enough for you. I like the Nen in HxH, but Stands are a much more effective power system. |
SetsukoHara said: TallonKarrde23 said: which could be fine if it was that way with some amazing writing or something unique to it, but it lacks that. Jojo is lacking something unique to it. LOL! The overall style of the serie, the stand and the clever fights occuring because of it are not unique enough for you. I like the Nen in HxH, but Stands are a much more effective power system. Stands are far from something relevant enough to make the franchise unique. The stands are a gimmick - just like ninjutsu in Naruto (I assume they do that in it at least), bankai in bleach, espers in Index, and every other x in every other y. It's a changeable variable that doesn't change the uniquity of the series. This is why you can end up with even SPORTS series seeming the exact same as DBZ, when clearly magical spirit balls and someone hitting a baseball are nothing alike, and yet there is no feeling of originality there because the writing is the exact same for both. Stands are not unique because the are written like every single other special ability in anything ever. The concept of a stand was pretty cool - but where did it lead to? Just the same shounen battles you'll find in any other series of power vs power or special ability vs special ability. And saying "clever fights" is kind of an empty piece of praise. What was clever? It's pretty typical - having some strategy involved doesn't make it special, it makes it what you should expect from a series focused on fighting. Aside that the fights are actually pretty poor and extended way too long when the way to end them is already available much sooner. Instead, we get typical battle focused shounen - lets make this a billion pages long fight when the actual important events in it take about 30 seconds to cover. It's not just typical, it's extremely generic in how the battles are written, let alone the rest of it. As for the style, what's unique about it? The only truly unique aspect in comparison to other CURRENT shounen is the art style still looks dated - aside that the writing is literally the exact same as anything else of the same genres and demographics. The characters are hilariously cookie cutter (dio for example is a typical evil villain big mean guy who kills doggies and never ever dies because he's just soooo evil and baaad) and have nothing aside the typical personalities and ways of being as every other shounen, and the writing is your typical save the world because an evil big bad is being mean stuff. This is the problem with jojo fans - they treat the series like it's some amazingly unique special series. It's not. It's a very typical generic battle shounen/battle seinen with nothing remotely original about it and average writing. It's not BAD, but it's far from something special in any area of it's contents aside maybe the poses they strike from time to time. Feel free to love it, but don't act like it's something it's not. |
TallonKarrde23Feb 27, 2013 3:49 PM
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| I pretty much agree with TallonKarrde23. Jojo's is entertaining because of its crazyness. But it's far from having a solid plot or being anything special. I have a lot of fun reading it, but it's really just fights most of the time... KiraYoshikage said: The nen was plagiarism on hamon Not at all, there isn't almost any similarity. If anything, I would say nen resembles stands, except that nen is much more logic and follows certain rules. KiraYoshikage said: Hisoka was inspired by Dio(part 3) Not at all. Just no. In personality, you could hardly find two characters more different. KiraYoshikage said: the Technic of Gon (jajanken) was inspired by the stand user, named Boy 2 Men (part4) The only thing they have in common is that both are inspired in Rock, Paper and Scissors, a widely known game. The rules and characteristics of the technic are completely different. KiraYoshikage said: Zeno Zoldyca share resemblances to Wang Chan That's a tribute, the same than Meryem resembles Cell. |
BennyDelonFeb 27, 2013 5:06 PM
| There is no point asking them. As one of my post stated earlier. There is too much begging the question. An example: "As in Jojo generic reason is it's generic." It's a repeated reason. Neither sides willing to give a reasonable reasons until the other makes the first move. So I will try my best. Just call me Pro-Jojo. So far the current argument now is the term "generic." I'd say "No." Jojo isn't your average "generic" Shounen. First, "The way of how the manga formulate the Protagonist." The manga is formulate each Part with a different Jojo. Phantom Blood has Jonathan and Battle Tendency has Joseph. They both aren't the same character but are related. So each part is always a fresh Jojo. It also saves you time. For you don't really need to read previous arc to understand the whole series. Second are the Battle Instruments. In Part 1&2 has what we have call Ripple(Hamon). It follows the same characteristic in the real world. (Chi) Part 3 and beyond has what we call Stands. It is like a ghost that comes from your inner conscience or your potential of developing. A stand can person, animal, or thing. And not all Stand user are Human nor alive. Everyone can have Ripple or posses a Stand. However not everyone can master Hamon nor control Stands. Examples Holly Kujo (Read Part 3 or the OVA) and Speedwagon(for Ripple). Note: Part 7 has what it's call a Spin. It's basically the alternate world version of Ripple. Third how battles are resulted. Not all the good guys wins. And not all the bad guys win as well. If you watch the 2012 adaptation Jojo,or read the manga you know what happen to Jonathan. And of course Dio. Fourth is how the battles are fight. I am just going with the 2012 anime adaptation for now. I will breakdown for First Arc and Second Arc. The first arc does have barrage of fist attack. But not all the attacks are barrage fist. Some of the more stand out attack are tentacle veins, and of course magnetic leaves glider. And the usage of tactics in this case the surrounding (something that isn't supernatural) are understandable as law of nature. Jonathan breath the air bubble, or use fire to thaw his hand. Special mention for Speedwagon. It may not be a write of a genius but it's still reasonable to pass in it's own fictional world. Second arc is different though, especially if you watch Joseph fights Straights, Santana, and ACDC. Joseph isn't proclaim by others character, or a narrator that he is a genius like Naruto for example > Shikamaru has over 200 IQ. Joseph is a goofball that can back up his word, or I call him a Trickster(Joseph actually disguise as a women although fail). Why do some of us interpret Joseph as smart? Because what he does are unpredictable(no not the kind as ass pull or powering up). His character is also entertaining and draws in our attention compare to Johnathan. And what makes Joseph stand out when he fights? He actually runs away from a fight. TL;DR? Basically, Jojo Bizarre Adventure may not appeal to everyone, but it's very good and can stand on its own. And by "No" means is "generic." If there is a trope Jojo Bizarre Adventure specializes, it will be a "Fridge Logic." I am sure there are better response than mine, but that is I can think for now. |
TookMe6YearsFeb 27, 2013 9:40 PM
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| Continue Now here are some flaws in Jojo and why people may call it "generic." First, the length. Like many popular "Shounen" series, Jojo is a very long one. With 25 years under it's belt, it can scare some reader. Jojo Bizarre Adventure has over 100 volumes, and that can be a turn off. Second, characters are flat. Yes, some character even the protagonist themselves are flat. Johnathan is one for example. Although Jojo's Bizarre Advenure isn't really a deep stories, its flat character may cause readers and viewer to not liking the series. Third the death scenes. If you watch the 2012 adaptation, you can tell some character are going to die. Will A Zeppeli for example death is so spot on you can't miss it. The heavy spoiler or hint of death can drive the audience away as it can be annoying. Fourth, is a special mention to the Narrator, Speedwagon and of course Stroheim. Simply speaking, nobodies like to point the obvious. Although it can add flavor to the series. Even though these flaws hits Jojo Bizarre Adventure, it can be overlook, if you shut down your mind. And to me personally, it's not that big of a deal. And mindless fun doesn't always equate to quality of a series. As long you enjoy the show, it's done its job(not always the case as we all enjoy an anime for a different reason.) That is all I can think of for now. |
TookMe6YearsFeb 27, 2013 9:30 PM
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| ^ Interestingly though, "flaws" like Narrator and sensational Death Scenes are the "strengths" some fans like to mention. :-) |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| @symbv Yes. The death scenes and narration can be both good and bad. For me, I think it add flavors to the series. Some people may not like the heavy hint all in the face, but david Production handle the death scene well in my opinion. @HYbridbloodszak I am glad you enjoy this thread. *Gives out drinks* |
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| @kira Nen is nothing like Hamon, if anything it sorta resembles Ki from Dragon Ball except Togashi made a extremely approved version of it. I don't remember Dio being a pedophile? Getting turned on by stronger foes? Jajenken resembling Boy II men I don't know yet since I'm on that part yet but it reminds me of DB because of the stance and how paper looks like it shoots out a ki blast but instead an Emission nen If anyones Hatsu resembles a stand is Neteros Hatsu who sort of reminds me of Star Platinum. |
RX-782Feb 28, 2013 12:17 AM
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TallonKarrde23 said: Stands are far from something relevant enough to make the franchise unique. The stands are a gimmick - just like ninjutsu in Naruto (I assume they do that in it at least), bankai in bleach, espers in Index, and every other x in every other y. It's a changeable variable that doesn't change the uniquity of the series. Stupid, I can say that characters are not relevant enough, because there are characters in every story... Those are battle anime or manga, so obviously there is going to be a power system, saying that you can totally dismiss it when you judge a this kind of manga is a bit ignorant as it is one of the main aspect of the genre and one that differentiates this genre from other one. So, it's definitely an important element when you judge the uniquity of this serie. It is especially the case for Jojo, since the Stands play a greater role in the storytelling than the ninjutsu in Naruto for example. The name of chapters are often the name of the characters or the Stands they are facing. You're only judging the originality of a serie through its character and the overall plot, when they are others elements to manga than that. 90% of the contents of Jojo is fight, which is why dismissing them like you do is a bit stupid. A well thought out fight can be more difficult to write than a character. Jojo excels in the way it creates and use original powers to create some situations you're just not used to see in your regular shonen. Stands are not unique because the are written like every single other special ability in anything ever. The concept of a stand was pretty cool - but where did it lead to? Just the same shounen battles you'll find in any other series of power vs power or special ability vs special ability. I have to question your definition of the term:"unique". Because it seems very restrictive. A Special Ability can't be unique because they are used in other serie. LOL, it’s like saying that a joke can’t be unique because they are jokes in other serie. What makes Stands stand out (lol) is the originality and diversity of the special ability it gives to its user. It’s much more complex than just: “The character is able to produce fire” which is what most shonen actually do. And the tactics employed are much clever than just “my water can extinguish your flame.” Which once again is something a lot of shonen are notorious for. And saying "clever fights" is kind of an empty piece of praise. What was clever? It's pretty typical - having some strategy involved doesn't make it special, it makes it what you should expect from a series focused on fighting. Yeah, but when it does it well, you have to praise the serie for it. And Jojo does that well. Aside that the fights are actually pretty poor and extended way too long when the way to end them is already available much sooner. Instead, we get typical battle focused shounen - lets make this a billion pages long fight when the actual important events in it take about 30 seconds to cover. It's not just typical, it's extremely generic in how the battles are written, let alone the rest of it. You’re not reading those fights seriously enough. None of those fights that extended for several chapters could end in only 30 seconds, each strategy used by a character leads to a reaction by an opponent, who then change his tactic to adapt. The way to end the fights is more than often not available because the tactics used at the beginning and the one used at the end are not the same most of the time. Fights are long because the opponents are constantly adapting their strategy to their opponents. As for the style, what's unique about it? The only truly unique aspect in comparison to other CURRENT shounen is the art style still looks dated - aside that the writing is literally the exact same as anything else of the same genres and demographics. The characters are hilariously cookie cutter (dio for example is a typical evil villain big mean guy who kills doggies and never ever dies because he's just soooo evil and baaad) and have nothing aside the typical personalities and ways of being as every other shounen, and the writing is your typical save the world because an evil big bad is being mean stuff. The art style is not just dated. Did you not notice the american influence in the art, the pop art reference in the character's clothes and figure trait, and the freaking pose. How can you say that it's not unique. Redirect me to a manga with the same art style please? Araki has been praised in America and Europe for the originality of his art style. This is definitely one of the least valid point in your rant. This is the problem with jojo fans - they treat the series like it's some amazingly unique special series. It's not. It's a very typical generic battle shounen/battle seinen with nothing remotely original about it and average writing. It's not BAD, but it's far from something special in any area of it's contents aside maybe the poses they strike from time to time. Feel free to love it, but don't act like it's something it's not. Where did you get that I am a fan of Jojo exactly? I was merely saying that saying this had nothing unique like you did in your previous post was actually not true. You’re judging the writings of Jojo only through the character complexity and the Overall plot, which is definitely not the right thing to do, because the serie doesn’t even try to expand on those aspects. If a serie can only be interesting through those points, then good for you, but don’t try to impose youre limited view on others please. |
SetsukoHaraFeb 28, 2013 4:42 AM
| For me, HxH and Jojo are best shounens airing since FMA. What i find in Jojo very unique and mostly entertaining is: - The over the top intense action, reactions, dubbing, dialog, craziness, badassary, wtf feeling and awesomeness. - Imagination and flexibility in the way hamon/ripple is applied. - The fast progression and brevity. This puts Jojo in a different basket from other animes like Naruto, Bleach and DBz. While there, some of the battles and training arcs takes ~5-10 eps to fisnish here they don't take more than 1 or 2 epis and are overall more satisfying. - I think that "the poor writing or the generic" some of you wrote is deliberate for the sake of unpredictability and for comedic purpose. Jojo never promised to tell a complex story it’s just written as it is while adding some "extras" (diverse, identifiable and first sight likable characters, the references to music, people and places, ridiculous poses, etc. As a shounen its focus is different, its good the way it is, or maybe the same as saying it wouldn't be good if it tried to be complex the way you wanted. - The uncertainty that the hero will die or not, win or loose. - The comedic stuff are everywhere and does not feel forced, even when everything the show does is in a ridiculously dumb, stupid, silly, shameful, bizarre, wrong and nonsensical way but at the same time its believable, they work perfectly in its own world and thus they come and feel natural. - Best OP, best ED, and great, huge and diverse soundtrack. Period - The art and use of colors that melts on every character personalities, reactions and different situations. - A lot funnier when you watch with your friends or family. It doesn't have to be the best, just watch and enjoy. /bye |
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| I wholeheartedly agree with you, OP. Ever since I read Jojo Parts 2-5, I can't look at other shounen fighting manga/anime the same way anymore. A lot of them don't hold a candle to Jojo, specifically in terms of how the fights are written and executed, and how imaginative and fun they can be. There are exceptions, of course (such as the aforementioned HxH), but otherwise, Jojo raised the bar for me to a point that many shounen series cannot reach. |
| I wouldn't go as far as calling Jojo "generic". I just said that is 90% fights, and it doesn't have a deep story. The series is basically a sucession of entertaining fights, where the plot is just a thin thread that connects the fights. And it works because Araki is very imaginative and since part 4 his drawings are amazing. But as an story it definitely isn't something a mangaka should aspire. |
TallonKarrde23 said: If it's so not generic tell me in detail what about it is so amazingly unique and original with unquestionable material directly pulled from the official material that has no resemblance in any form to almost every single other battle shounen out there? That should be super easy based on how you seem to think of it. I'd like you to try and go into explaining how the writing and character designs (in terms of their person, not their looks) is any different from your typical battle shounen as well. Unless you're just being sarcastic or referring to someone else. As it's been said, Jojo's story isn't one of it's strong points, most of the plots are pretty basic, like "Go kill Dio" or "Find the serial killer", but Jojo's strong points are the characters and the Stand battles, as well as the Stands themselves. While most characters in Jojo aren't flat, I wouldn't say they're deep either, an example of a flat character is pretty much everyone from the first 3 parts, excluding the main villain(s) and the protagonists group(though Messina and the three Ripple warriors from PB are flat as well), there's also the Assassins from Part 5, who only show up for their fights and that's it. Non-flat characters would be the protagonist's group and the villains as I already mentioned, whose numbers on each part, and we get to see backstories for almost every single one of them, as well as their reasons for fighting. Steel Ball Run actually had the most character development on the whole series, since Araki decided to work with a much smaller cast. Johnny went from an obnoxious prick to probably one of the most likeable protagonists. It still has it's share of flat characters like the 11 Assassins and Disco, and even though some characters may be flat, they're still pretty fun to read, and their interactions with other characters are also entertaining, for example Tonio and Mikitaka from Part 4, they only showed up for a couple of Chapters, but they seemed like really cool characters, and their little arcs were pretty fun as well. Stands are unique in the way that they have very unusual habilities for the most part. Araki started pretty simple with SC, having Fire or Water stands, a Sword Stand and a Time-Stopping Stand. He started to get much more creative with powers during Part 4, having a Stand capable of manifesting sound effects, a Stand that traps people in paper by learning of their fears and a Stand that chases and weakens people unless they're going over 60 km/h. He got more creative from there, like a Stand with the power to summon the "Ground's Memories" or controlling people's limbs by standing directly above them. At the same time, these abilities make the fights really creative, as every fight is won by using tactics and outsmarting the enemy, the Stand users have to come up with tricks and different strategies to overcome the enemy, who is also using different tricks and tactics, as Dio says in Stone Ocean "There is no such thing as a weak stand", since it depends on how the user fights, of course, Stands like Cream Starter have no hope of defeating something like The World, but that's not the point, Stand Battles are always about outsmarting your opponent, as opposed to the usual battle shonen, where most fights are won by simply using something more powerful or using an asspull such as a Power-Up. That said, Jojo has had it's share of Power-Ups, some justified, some not so much, using Giorno's G.E.Requiem as an example, it's a power-up, yes, but through all of Part 5, the characters keep mentioning over and over that using the Stand Arrow will allow them to defeat Diavolo, and when it's finally used, Giorno obtains one of the most broken Stands in the series, but it had already been said something like that would happen, so it's not like it was an asspull. In the end, Jojo does not have a deep story(though Part 8 seems to be heading that way), but what story it does have is fun and entertaining, and is full of likeable characters and very creative abilities and fights. |
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Salce said: I wouldn't go as far as calling Jojo "generic". I just said that is 90% fights, and it doesn't have a deep story. The series is basically a sucession of entertaining fights, where the plot is just a thin thread that connects the fights. And it works because Araki is very imaginative and since part 4 his drawings are amazing. I agree with this, as well. However, someone saying that Jojo sucks because it isn't plot-focused is like if someone said that Citizen Kane sucks because it doesn't have enough action-packed fight scenes. It's the kind of criticism that indicates that a person has missed the point and the purpose of the work in question, as well as overlooking the actual strengths of the work that people greatly admire. |
fluffybunnyboy said: Salce said: I wouldn't go as far as calling Jojo "generic". I just said that is 90% fights, and it doesn't have a deep story. The series is basically a sucession of entertaining fights, where the plot is just a thin thread that connects the fights. And it works because Araki is very imaginative and since part 4 his drawings are amazing. I agree with this, as well. However, someone saying that Jojo sucks because it isn't plot-focused is like if someone said that Citizen Kane sucks because it doesn't have enough action-packed fight scenes. It's the kind of criticism that indicates that a person has missed the point and the purpose of the work in question, as well as overlooking the actual strengths of the work that people greatly admire. It doesn't help that he has no experience with manga whatsoever and tries to judge one of the longest manga series by watching 20 episodes of the anime... Well, that's a troll for you. |
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
| Wow, this thread must hold a new breed of JJBA fans. All the comments I'm seeing in this thread make it seem everything gets better after Part 2. I've heard most people(on other forums) say that Battle Tendency is the best part, and the only thing that comes close is Part 3. |
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| "A good series deserves a good fanbase"; "We are PillarMen, we adapt to every criticism." WHAMU! "Awaken my fanbase!" *POSES* Joking aside. You can enjoy any arc, and can still enjoy JJBA over all. I know some people favorite Part 1, even the general consensus stated it's one of the worst arc of JJBA. I was introduce to Part 3, and decided to read from Part 1 all to current. Although some translation are weird to read. And the best part that you can take advantage about the manga you can start reading it at any order. You won't be missing much other than some background and overall feel of JJBA. There really isn't much to connect each Part. For me I started from Part 3,1,2,5,4,6,7,8. Although I don't recommend or prefer not you power read the series. Take a break once in a while, and that includes when you finish each part. Let it all sinks in. |
TookMe6YearsMar 1, 2013 11:55 AM
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KiraYoshikage said: It is a matter of choice. I prefer Part 4 for my opinion Part 3 is still the most known. This is not because most people prefer a part that you must follow all of them It's not like I said we all have to follow their opinions, just a simple observation I wanted to point out. From what little of Part 3 I've read, I can't really say if I prefer Part 2 to it. I like Joseph's comedy, but Jotaro's badassness is quite good as well. Fights seem about the same. |
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| Did a mod seriously come in here and just remove a chunk of the discussion for no reason? The only reason I can think of is that it went into discussion about the manga, but that is completely relevant because that is where the entire story of this anime came from. For a work to have inspired JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, it would have to have been created before 1987 (whether it's a manga, anime, or something else). Since x5exotic has listed no actual examples of similar works, he has not provided an actual argument. He's going on about what's generic when he has refused to clarify what he defines as generic. Unlike some people here, I believe that you do not need to have read the manga to judge what we have seen of the anime thus far, but I fail to see why anyone would consider even Phantom Blood as a generic series without comparing it to works that were created after the Phantom Blood manga. |
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| Why can't there be many different ways to do shows? O.o I like JoJo's, HxH, and Gintama all for completely different reasons and they're all really good examples of shonen done right |
| *Takes a peek at the Jojo threads after several days* *A new discussion topic with episode-level amount of replies!* "It must be a flame war" Why was I right? Anyways, I only had the patience to read a couple pages, but why are you guys jumping down bNq's throat so much? You're all more or less proving him right; that the hype and overzealous defensiveness is getting kind of absurd. Well, for my thoughts on the series: It's pretty great. I've always found Phantom Blood to be one of, if not the weakest part (iconic moments aside), and was kind of straight-faced 80s cheese that didn't sit too well with me (Though DP actually improved the presentation, and made it even more lovingly deliberate). Battle Tendency, however, has just been kind of amazing; DP's limited budget has shown itself on numerous occasions in the animation department, but the expert use of visual style for its still-shots and Araki-trademark bastardization of color-theory makes it a joy to look at, anyways. While the earlier parts of Jojo (well, most of them, really) aren't examples of masterful storytelling, they sure provide a hell of fun with its creative battles and exotic locales. The OST, at least for BT, couldn't be more perfect - it seems every episode I'm hearing new tracks, and they're all amazingly appropriate for their given situations. I'm not gonna make this a review, and go over all the integral aspects of the series, but despite its relative shallowness regarding the nature of its storytelling, the earnest and loud melodramatic nature of its characters are genuinely endearing to me, and feel like Araki's manic expressions are being directly translated to his characters. As a battle-shonen, especially with Battle Tendency, I think Jojo does quite well. It's definitely not aiming to be some sort of clever deconstruction of the genre, or break any molds with its storytelling. But it's a lot of honest, hokey fun, and I can appreciate the almost-antiquated approach it takes towards its characters and composition. Also: how the hell did HxH vs. Jojo come up? They're both honestly the best currently-airing TV shonen going on right now, and the best since FMA:B wrapped up in 2010; we're lucky that they're airing side-by-side at the moment. I also can't wait for my ants. |
| x5exotic: Please realize we are totally open to discusison about Jojo. It has great flaws and I think nobody here isn't aware of that. However, this is MAL - a site where you compare, rate and list series based on either a more subjective or objective set of normative values you place on different entries. And when you, as a very devouted fan of a certain series, do not only make claims regarding Jojo's quality (which is - again - totally fine here) but try to downplay the significance of this entry, challenge common depictions of the industry, etc. we expect you to follow up with reasonable arguments. And of course, we expect you to have some knowledge and experience to back up your claim. I'd also like to note that MAL is a site where everyone can choose to display their list or hide it, yet it is generally more productive to show how one's ratings work so a common basis for discussion can be established. So obviously, when you decided to challenge the current state of perception within the industry people with or without much experience would like to know why exactly you came to this conclusion. Therefore we look at your MAL profile and notice that you have nearly no experience when it comes down to manga (compared to the rest of the site) and lack experience to judge both manga - and yes, we have to talk about the manga here since it is the primary medium and the main factor when it comes down to evaluating influence - and the impact it might or might not have on other titles. Of course, people with a bigger amount of read series will be more than startled if they notice that you decide to make fundamental conclusions based on nearly no evidence, not to mention being very aggressive about your point of view. For example: The Lord of the Rings is probably the Dragonball of modern fantasy - or Jojo, for argumentation purposes. It's been around for a long time, influenced many other series and is one of the standard works that every respectable fan of both the fantasy genre and lietrature in general should know about. Over the years people noticed some flaws and there were certain series that improved on the formula like A Song of Ice And Fire (the One Piece in this equation) and The Kingkiller Chronicle (by Rothfuss), which would be Hunter X Hunter. Are these series innovative? Yes. Are they better from a modern point of view? Depends on the viewer, but chances are they will be of higher quality. But do they take away from the impact the initial milestone had? No, on the contrary: They were built upo this foundation and expand the known formula that was by the milestone in the frst place. And of course people who read a lot of fantasy books will get mad when someone who only read parts of LotR and The Kingkiller Chronicle comes around and denies LotR's influence because The Kingkiller Chronicle is so much better written and more influental in his opinion. One can still argue the influence The Kingkiller Chronicle and A Song of Ice and Fire will have on the genre, but it is still too soon to do that in the KC's case whereas ASOIAF has been around a bit longer. And HxH has suffered from the constant hiatus, Togashi's work ethics and other factors; don't deny that. |
NidhoeggrMar 4, 2013 4:52 AM
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
| " This, THIS right here is how Shounen should be done " NO, i prefer my One Piece over JoJo crap anyday and there are already Macho 'Over the Top' freak shonens out there (Toriko & Fist Star) both utterly Mediocre |
Roronoa_Zoro_Fan said: " This, THIS right here is how Shounen should be done " NO, i prefer my One Piece over JoJo crap anyday and there are already Macho 'Over the Top' freak shonens out there (Toriko & Fist Star) both utterly Mediocre a new beginners here. So, goodbye. If you have anything else to say, you can go. Ah, I wonder shonen like today would be without the good oldschool manga series. A little respect for the series that has influenced manga that you like.and probably would not be as good if the Jojo, HNK and DB would not exist If you are not able to say anything with respect don't come (Sorry if I disrespectful in some of my posts) |
KiraYoshikageMar 2, 2013 10:36 AM
Roronoa_Zoro_Fan said: You like endless stare fest? You like how some random characters comment everytime on everything what other characters do? You like how some characters have been made to be ''slower'' and ''weaker'' in order to extend episode?" This, THIS right here is how Shounen should be done " NO, i prefer my One Piece over JoJo crap anyday and there are already Macho 'Over the Top' freak shonens out there (Toriko & Fist Star) both utterly Mediocre |
Roronoa_Zoro_Fan said: " This, THIS right here is how Shounen should be done " NO, i prefer my One Piece over JoJo crap anyday and there are already Macho 'Over the Top' freak shonens out there (Toriko & Fist Star) both utterly Mediocre >Favorite Anime >Clannad >Code Geass >Gurren Lagann With such terrible taste, it's obvious you wouldn't enjoy something actually good. |
| <img src="http://i.imgur.com/5NsN8MU.gif" border="0" /> |
Roronoa_Zoro_Fan said: " This, THIS right here is how Shounen should be done " NO, i prefer my One Piece over JoJo crap anyday and there are already Macho 'Over the Top' freak shonens out there (Toriko & Fist Star) both utterly Mediocre Are you actually suggesting that One Piece isn't also an over the top shounen series with muscular male characters? I mean, really? =P |
| @Nidhoegger, first your idea of equivalency is off. JJBA isn't LotR and One Piece is NOTHING like ASOIAF. JJBA hasn't inspired nearly as many as DBZ, not sure what's the book equivalent of Jojo but it isn't LotR. OP is simple and straightforward and while Asoiaf is complex and isn't all black and white, and has a lot of hiatuses (easier to see the resemblance now). OP would be Harry Potter or the Hunger Games Second, so your problem is that I'm downplaying the influence of it. I only said that while it is indeed inspirational, there are still newer series with bigger influence on BIGGER series. Like Hunter x Hunter. Maybe even One Piece and Naruto subsequently. Third, hiatuses might have affected popularity and the momentum of it, as well as the art (which is redrawn) but it doesn't affect the quality. Also Togashi's longest run is 30 chapters (the latest batch) so he's always been lazy, you all make it out like it started recently when it was even bigger before. 4. We get it, you read the manga, but it doesn't matter. We're talking about how this anime should be inspiring all newer shonen right now, and I'm saying it shouldn't :/ Roronoa_Zoro_Fan said: " This, THIS right here is how Shounen should be done " NO, i prefer my One Piece over JoJo crap anyday and there are already Macho 'Over the Top' freak shonens out there (Toriko & Fist Star) both utterly Mediocre OP has the same faults as Jojo and even more, so no. Though since the story is much longer there's bound to be a segment of the story that is better. But there's not much of a diff. |
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| Well, JoJo is made for only manliest of men to enjoy, so for people who like sappy drama, little girls, etc. I can see why they wouldn't like it. Arakis character designs are really stylish and unique. They create a dynamic that sets JJBA apart from other series. I'd also say it's the no.1 series that's not just over the top but right in your face silly and gets away with it easily. Like a good friend that keeps pulling your leg but you can't stop smiling at his wittiness. |
| (|__/) Never give up, aim for the top! (='.'=) Top wo nerae! o(")(") Anime music: http://myanimelist.net/blog.php?eid=777199 |
x5exotic said: "clever battle's instead of 'hey lets just punch the shit out of everything' rings a bell" Been done way before Jojo. It neither invented it nor popularized it. Where exactly? You also seem to be confused about what Stands are.When someone says that they are the manifestation of a person's aura or fighting spirit,it doesn't imply magical energetic aura seeping out of a characters body. In other words,it did not inspire Nen in it's most basic form,which is the aforementioned magical energy stuff(that mostly comes from the concepts of Chi and shit anyway,if not merely called that such as in the cases of DB and Hokuto no Ken). Instead,Stands are these: "Manifestation of a persons spirit" as in "it appears next to me in the form of an entity or a tool do my bidding in battle". What did this inspire in HxH?Why many a character's unique Nen Release(Hatsu) if you even just compare them by the above concept alone!Stuff like Shizuku's vacuum cleaner,Chrollo's book or straight up Standish entites like Pitou's,Netero's,Knuckle's or Neon's hatsus. But wait,there's more.As HxH is clearly more in the JoJo's school as far as the way the battles are fough is concerned.Stands,much like multiple Nen releases,often possess some rather(like,really) weird and unconventional abilities,which completely changes the way those battles are fought...putting greater emphasis on the users creativity,tactics and whether or not this person is capable of thinking outside the box. Also akin to Nen fights,many stands have arbitrary pre-set conditions that limit them,be it a straight up a limitation or a condition necessary to be fulfilled to even activate the power in question. The whole "I fight you strategically by creatively utilizing some rather unconventional abilities that may or may not have arbitrary conditons to them" schtick is pretty much what JoJo worked out as it's own thing.Before that it was a blatant "HnK with vampires". HxH's aura/energy/power system isn't inspired by JJBA or Stands.What's clearly inspired by JJBA and Stands is how HxH handles many of it's specific abilities and how it builds fights around them. Hell,even Kubo sorta tried to do what Araki and Togashi have been doing and introduce condition-based unconventional powers with Fullbringers.(Hell atleast one of their names was a music reference,and all stands have been gotten named after bands and shit since Part 4)...though it kinda didn't work out because he failed to do the "smart and creative use" part,lol. So yeah,HxH does have inspirations from JoJo,and dare I say Togashi chose some damn good aspects from it to get inspired by. Though if someone told you that Dio inspired Hisoka and that Nen is a rip-off of Ripple,yeah I think that's nonsense too. |
SanderRXMar 2, 2013 2:36 PM
| Topic Clean Up Goodness everyone that was a lot of work. Listen if you keep tell other people there opinions are wrong, I will close this down. Things removed from topic: The Fight about the manga and the anime The interesting discussion between who is right. |
 Where there is no imagination there is no horror. || Arthur Conan Doyle || Happy Halloween! |
| So I'm all for removing the posts that are inflammatory or don't pertain to JoJo at all, and I appreciate that you actually posted, but I can't help but notice that a number of posts remain that are still nothing more than "this thing sucks and I refuse to explain why I feel that way" while a few posts I felt were relevant are now gone. Do you mind clarifying what got the posts that were actually about JoJo removed? Because I'd certainly like to discuss this series but I don't want to worry that I might lose more posts. |
|
Zomsuke said: That's an odd opinion to have. Part 2 is certainly VERY entertaining but I don't see it as Araki's best work, Part 3 is kind of overrated but it is basically all uphill from here. JJBA is style over substance, there's no real complexity or intricacies in the plot until SBR/JJL. Stardust Crusaders is absolutely not overrated. It has some of the best battles, characters, humor, and artwork that Araki's ever done. It may not have the most complex plot, but that's okay because Araki has never been very good at writing those anyway. What really matters are all the other aspects of his manga. |
| Let me clarify that I am a Jojo fan BUT I too don't think that jojo is perfect. It has flaws. Tons of them in fact - that I'm wiling acknowledge. TallonKarrde23 said: This is the problem with jojo fans - they treat the series like it's some amazingly unique special series. It's not. It's a very typical generic battle shounen/battle seinen with nothing remotely original about it and average writing. (1) No, this is the problem with people who views Jojo by the standard of modern shows. Jojo appears generic because it, along with Hokuto and Dragonball WERE the ones who did a lot of them FIRST. It's not that they're generic. It's the other way round, they did a lot of stuffs that got so popular it ended up being viewed as generic. It WAS unique when it first came out. Is it still unique now? Perhaps not quite as much anymore, what with many others copying the stuffs later. BUT that doesn't mean that it's legacy is to be ignored. It's like that joke about Shakespeare: "I don't get what's the deal with Hamlet; it's just one famous saying after another." (2) As for the whole anime vs manga argument, KiraYoshikage is actually right because here it'll be unfair to compare the merits of jojo if the anime is the only ones you've seen. Jojo has inspired and influenced lots of people and works. That is a fact - you can look up interviews etc. So yes, you can't actually complain about it until you have read the manga because the parts in the anime is far from an indication. I actually predicted these sort of complains and even took the time to make this thread (http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=499971) because I knew there'll be people who think that all 100+vols of jojo are like the 26 eps you see. |
NilviusMar 8, 2013 1:18 AM
Candor said: I wouldn't consider JoJo as something more than good or enjoyable. Ok it has its unique style, and the anime's art is something I really like, it's beautiful. Soundtracks are also pretty good. Characters are good as well, a pretty nice cast, but as far as the plot goes, there's honestly nothing special, animation is lacky most of the time too that sometimes I get bored from all of the still images Basically JoJo is something you can enjoy if you turn your brain off and just enjoy what's thrown into your face, just like other brainless GAR anime like Hellsing Ultimate, but the difference is that JoJo doesn't take itself too seriously. However, as far as the adaptation goes, it's definitely one of the better shonen adaptations, next to Madhouse's Hunter x Hunter, but as a series as a whole, I prefer Hunter x Hunter and Magi (manga only, its anime is the worst battle-shounen adaptation to date. Yes, even worse than the big 3 and Fairy Tail). Yeah pretty much this,the soundtrack is really nice Surprisingly the unique comic like art is what made me avoid for a while though I just couldn't get into it. Also the constant exaggerated screams always crack me JOJOOOOO!! Lmao I can never to that stuff seriously |
| I am sure that I will be flamed for that but anyway. I think that Jojo is only average or actually,it became average in the mid of part1.The only reason that I read past part1 was because I knew that it will have even more WTF moments so I read it more out of curiosity than entertainment.You will say that Gintama does the same thing but unlike JoJo it is a parody and manages to make me laugh for that, unlike JoJo that, I am sure, wasnt/isnt aiming for that. OP too is ridiculous but unlike JoJo,its entire world is too,not only the main chars and antagonists(unless that changes after part2). Then there is the legacy thing.I dont care.Honestly I dont give two shits if EVERYTHING I watch or read was influenced by JoJo. I will thank the author for it but I wont force myself to like it because of that.Saying that Jojo or any other series is the reason we have some good series today is like saying that when they came out everything was crap so of course it would be so great compared to everything else. Really, since when did enjoyment had to do with the influence a work of fiction had created. Some say that they can enjoy it because,while it is silly all the time, they dont take it seriously. Well sorry but not everyone can do that.When I started part1 I really liked the premise and although I found the art weird I wanted to know what Dio,who before finding the mask was one perfect villain for me, would do next and how would Jonathan react to it.... And then everything started to crumble down.Dio throw out of the window everything I liked about him and Jojo became just a hero of a shounen series who would always won.Of course we see that in every shounen series today but unlike them Jojo had a pretty good start instead of the usual "boy finds super powers from chp1". If the "dont take it seriously" works for Jojo why cant it work for other series,lets say Bleach?Chapter after chapter it gets worse but if I shut my brain down I will be able to enjoy it...probably... Some would say that Jojo can work like this because it doesnt take itself seriously....Are you sure?Do you actually believe that we would have so many average or bad series if the story was actually trying to be serious? |
HurricaneSweet said: Jojo was influenced heavily by One Piece anyway... What? |
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
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