| I found this theory on Twitter, and I thought it was really interesting so I did a rough translation of it. Some parts of this theory have been said on US twitter too, but I thought this one was pretty detailed and wanted to start a discussion about it. -Theory has spoilers for Higurashi series and Umineko series My opinions on it: Updated Theory after Watadamashi-hen (including Satoko Speculation) Credit to OG theory: https://uminekolong.hatenablog.com/entry/2020/11/07/212033 |
Gar_LoganNov 20, 2020 9:10 PM
random_weirdo said: That's an interesting theory. As you say, by the end of Watadamashi the part about the infected person trying to kill Keiichi should be discarded, but it's still interesting to think about. So if Keiichi is Lambdadelta's piece, is this suggesting that Satoko is Featherine's? Everyone I've seen theorizing is sure that Satoko is Lambda's piece, but if Hanyuu is no longer in the picture, then Featherine doesn't have a piece. If so far Higurashi has been able to play out entertainingly for new watchers while also giving new material to old fans, I guess they will also manage to insert Umineko references that won't leave newcomers confused. I'm guessing there will be subtle nudges more than having a character outright state it. The person who made the theory actually updated it after this arc, so I added that part! I guess I just don't see (yet) how they can nudge at witchy stuff but still have a normal explanation (like X person is the culprit sort of thing). |
| That was meta as fuck. As a fan of WTC I love it. Not so sure as a mystery fan. Jokes aside that I made in discussion threads about Endless Witches coming to the rescue etc, Higurashi was a mystery. Not mystery vs fantasy, anti-mystery vs-anti-fantasy or an analysis of the mystery genre fused with romance and dbz fights. So I would prefer if Gou tries to separate the meta from the actual mystery, way more than Umineko did. That aside, it is a very interesting theory. There is no reason to separate Hinamizawa from Rokkenjima tho. Well yes, for all we know the world of Hinamizawa as we know it from arc 1-8 may be directly linked only to Lion's world and not the Rokkenjima where Beatrice exists.But they do connect. What is separate are the gameboards. |
| It was an interesting read, but I think your theory is too meta and doesn't really fit the mystery genre. While yes what happens outside the game board does influence the game board, you have to remember that even witches have to stay within the rules of the game board. They cannot move pieces in a way that goes outside their role (they have to move knight in L shape in chess). They cannot brainwash Satoko to be some psycho murderer unless she already had potential to be one in the first place.Satoko is a coward, and even under HS is unable to kill someone but instead is the type to cower in a corner. The theory has to make sense in the game board too, and as a mystery there has to be only one culprit/mastermind. Right now based on what we know from Watadamashi-hen, I have formed my own Theory. 1. Yamainu betrayed Takano on the night of Watanagashi when they were supposed to kill Tomitake. This forced Takano to run, and Tomitake being the nice guy that he is, helps Takano run. This means that they have a new master. 2. ]The culprit's main goal is to kill Furude Rika 3. Rule X happens by random and is unrelated to the new culprit. It's a leftover effect based on Takano's actions I can only see one person from the old characters that meet these requirements: Irie Kyousuke. Irie found out about Takano's plan and made a deal with Okonogi to betray Takano. Now you might ask for the motive, Ryuukishi often stresses in his works that love is the greatest motive for murder and I think the same is true in this case. Irie's goal is to prevent Plan 34 from being enacted and to do that he has to prove that Takano's research is false. To do this, they have to kill Furude Rika and wait out 48 house. In Onidamashi, Satoko was also killed to erase witnesses. Now to fill in some blanks in Watadamashi-hen. Why was Yamainu going to Sonozaki house? They were trying to save Mion who was under HS after being forced to kill Shion to defend herself. |
Nemesis2005Nov 23, 2020 10:26 AM
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Nemesis2005 said: It was an interesting read, but I think your theory is too meta and doesn't really fit the mystery genre. Not my theory, just thought it was interesting so I shared it here! I agree with you for sure that it's too meta to actually work within the structure of Higurashi. (I honestly have no idea how Featherine (if that /is/ her in the OP) can be introduced in a way that makes any sense. Since it looks like Irie is finally coming back next week from the preview screenshots, we might be able to see how your theory plays out in the next few weeks! |
| You are telling me the weird lolicon doctor is the culprit? GASP |
| Irie is not a lolicon, he's a maidcon. |
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Nemesis2005 said: that tries to put underage girls in maid outfits.Irie is not a lolicon, he's a maidcon. Lets not go full Hempel's Raven on this matter ahaha.wav |
| As much as I LOVE the WTC metaverse, the theories relies too much on it. Like you said, this wouldn't be the best way to approach a series for newcomers. It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story. With this, we don't need to rely on the metaverse and we can throw Bern, Lambda, and Featherine out of the picture. The theory with Satoko is interesting, but the problem is that she has died in both arcs so far. Now Beatrice has technically "died" in most of the games against Battler, but that's because the victory condition is to solve the mystery. The end condition of Higurashi on the other hand is to survive, which makes me believe that Satoko isn't the mastermind (though she did act pretty sus in episode 8) I still believe that it is Takano, but there is obviously going to be a major twist later on, I just don't know what it is. Still, the theory is really interesting. My thoughts on the metaverse is that it is a nice cheat-sheet/shortcut for older fans to figure out who the mastermind is, but not necessary to be able to solve the mystery. |
NekoArc666Nov 23, 2020 4:32 PM
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| What if there is no mastermind? What if Rika is just trapped in this loop and every kakera just has different culprits based on her actions....or lack of them? If the "plan" is to deceive Rika, and by extension us, then wouldnt that make most sense? We are focusing on who could have bean the grand mastermind so the motives and methods of the individuals are pushed a bit to he side, if not completely. Do we really need to find an overarching villain? If she was just thrown back into the game board there must be a reason. Torturing her, teaching her a lesson, whatever x reason the witch that threw her in there has. Now I am not saying that the Yamainu, Tokyo and Irie couldnt do something. But that doesnt mean that a grand plan is in motion. Maybe they too are reacting to what is happening. The scenes that concern me are the deaths of Satoko. Obliviously both are staged. In Watadamshi the Yamainu who were there did it. But in Onidamahi they didnt have to brutally kill them like that to stage a burglar's entry. And as we saw before, they were getting ready to leave. It just seems weird. |
| Tataridamashi mystery will be solved in 25 minutes. It wouldn't even be minutes, I'd give it 1500 seconds. Memes aside, let's continue. ArcueidBestGirl said: Even though some Knox, like the unknown drug, don't work in Higurashi, this one is important.It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story. ssjokg said: What if there is no mastermind? Since the end of Onidamashi I'm leaning towards the "there is no mastermind" idea. That because someone mentioned the locked room, and I started metaphoring on Bern's quotes lol. But let's suppose there is a culprit. For that to work, everyone needs to have their motives to act in that manner. The last thing we usually get to know in a mystery is the motive. For now, we know Tomitake and Takano are fleeing, Yamainu are packing up, but cleaning. We still don't know what changed for that to happen. It all seems that Takano's plans are being rejected and changed in the middle of the events. They're silencing everyone who caught advanced stages of HS and erasing the Queen to make it certain that her plan is never carried out in future, also proving her theory as wrong. Rena surviving could either mean they weren't aware of her or she escaped like always. Rena's pattern is that she always survives unless if she's directly murdered by someone. The real problem with this theory is that it would make the Yamainu the culprit, and the mastermind would be someone like Nomura or Okonogi. They weren't introduced yet in Gou. That would simply deceive old viewers, but make the mystery impossible to be solved for the new viewers. Another flaw is Rika. She never got to know what killed her because she was probably killed swiftly and the killer, from Rika's point of view, is working for Takano. Another possibility is her killer is the person portrayed as the villain of the arc from which is derived Rika's deceivement. In Onidamashi she could be sleeping, while in Watadamashi she was strangled. Both conditions can leave the person blurry. Her deathes' memories are blurry, but if someone is making it so certain that Rika never catches a hint, then someone else must be aware of the time-loop. If Satoko is the mastermind and is aware of the time-loop for some reason, then she wouldn't mind dying as long as her condition to win is met. She's probably the only character that was introduced early that would work as a mastermind, but her reason is still unknown. This is as far as I can go, I'm still leaning to "no culprit", but there might be one. Oh, and ArcueidBestGirl, you were right: Keiichi's monologues are the best. |
rafaelfserafimNov 25, 2020 1:06 PM
| That's assuming Knox works at all. We are using it for our own convenience, hoping that Ryukishi also abides by it . Ofc course ,we still need more theories. |
| With the exception of Knox's 4th, all the other commandments are followed in Higurashi. Sure, Ooishi isn't impartial, but he does serve as the detective of the story. If the L5 is still present in Gou, then that means that the same commandment has been broken from the original. Hopefully Ryukishi07 still follows the rules. Until Tataridamashi-hen and the arc after that come out, we can't really make accurate predictions just yet. I am interested with what they are going to do for arc 4. Maybe Featherine will come out to play. I'd never thought that I would come across a more epic monologue than Shirou's NLBW sequence in Fate/Stay Night. I stood corrected when I read Keiichi's monologues when he was murdering Teppei. |
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ArcueidBestGirl said: With the exception of Knox's 4th, all the other commandments are followed in Higurashi. Sure, Ooishi isn't impartial, but he does serve as the detective of the story. If the L5 is still present in Gou, then that means that the same commandment has been broken from the original. Hopefully Ryukishi07 still follows the rules. Until Tataridamashi-hen and the arc after that come out, we can't really make accurate predictions just yet. I am interested with what they are going to do for arc 4. Maybe Featherine will come out to play. I'd never thought that I would come across a more epic monologue than Shirou's NLBW sequence in Fate/Stay Night. I stood corrected when I read Keiichi's monologues when he was murdering Teppei. I mean we dont know if Ryukishi himself follows it, not if it happens to follow it by coincidence. And I am sure that Ooishi isnt the detective since he isnt present in most events and just gives a final report on the scenes. He is more like the TIPS corner. Keichi is also very unreliable and so is SMion and Rena. Akasaka, who at least in the anime wasnt affected by HS, is the closest to an impartial detective. Rika is the only one that can be treated as the detective but only after half of the story has passed. And here is another issue with Gou. What is the culprit? Normally, culprit is someone that kills but what if this isnt the mystery that we must be solving? In Ep2 we get the real question that we must solve. Who and why trapped Rika again. I mean, if the answer to "Who am I?" is "Small bombs", I dont see how this is different. And this isnt Van Dine that needs a corpse and a culprit. |
ssjokg said: ArcueidBestGirl said: With the exception of Knox's 4th, all the other commandments are followed in Higurashi. Sure, Ooishi isn't impartial, but he does serve as the detective of the story. If the L5 is still present in Gou, then that means that the same commandment has been broken from the original. Hopefully Ryukishi07 still follows the rules. Until Tataridamashi-hen and the arc after that come out, we can't really make accurate predictions just yet. I am interested with what they are going to do for arc 4. Maybe Featherine will come out to play. I'd never thought that I would come across a more epic monologue than Shirou's NLBW sequence in Fate/Stay Night. I stood corrected when I read Keiichi's monologues when he was murdering Teppei. I mean we dont know if Ryukishi himself follows it, not if it happens to follow it by coincidence. And I am sure that Ooishi isnt the detective since he isnt present in most events and just gives a final report on the scenes. He is more like the TIPS corner. Keichi is also very unreliable and so is SMion and Rena. Akasaka, who at least in the anime wasnt affected by HS, is the closest to an impartial detective. Rika is the only one that can be treated as the detective but only after half of the story has passed. And here is another issue with Gou. What is the culprit? Normally, culprit is someone that kills but what if this isnt the mystery that we must be solving? In Ep2 we get the real question that we must solve. Who and why trapped Rika again. I mean, if the answer to "Who am I?" is "Small bombs", I dont see how this is different. And this isnt Van Dine that needs a corpse and a culprit. Alright, I have questions for you in return: What is a detective? What makes someone a detective? If being present at the crimes is one of the conditions, then Battler spectacularly fails at being one in Episode 4. In the first place, do we even need a detective? Knox's rules do have conditions for the detective, but it never specified that a detective is never needed. Hold up a sec. If there is no detective, then the rules don't have to be followed. Ohhhhhhh, everything makes sense now, I'm an idiot. Well that's kinda dumb ngl, but Higurashi was made before Umineko so whatever. That also means that a culprit(?) wouldn't need to be introduced early in the story, though that would be a terrible move. The culprit is definitely the person who kills Rika. Every time Rika died in the OG Higurashi, she either committed suicide, or Takano killed her. I think the same thing is happening in Gou as well. We were given the description that a construction worker came up to Rika at recess, so it could be Okonogi. Well, we won't be able to piece the full picture now so we'll have to wait for the next 2 arcs. |
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ArcueidBestGirl said: ssjokg said: I mean we dont know if Ryukishi himself follows it, not if it happens to follow it by coincidence. And I am sure that Ooishi isnt the detective since he isnt present in most events and just gives a final report on the scenes. He is more like the TIPS corner. Keichi is also very unreliable and so is SMion and Rena. Akasaka, who at least in the anime wasnt affected by HS, is the closest to an impartial detective. Rika is the only one that can be treated as the detective but only after half of the story has passed. And here is another issue with Gou. What is the culprit? Normally, culprit is someone that kills but what if this isnt the mystery that we must be solving? In Ep2 we get the real question that we must solve. Who and why trapped Rika again. I mean, if the answer to "Who am I?" is "Small bombs", I dont see how this is different. And this isnt Van Dine that needs a corpse and a culprit. Alright, I have questions for you in return: What is a detective? What makes someone a detective? If being present at the crimes is one of the conditions, then Battler spectacularly fails at being one in Episode 4. In the first place, do we even need a detective? Knox's rules do have conditions for the detective, but it never specified that a detective is never needed. Hold up a sec. If there is no detective, then the rules don't have to be followed. Ohhhhhhh, everything makes sense now, I'm an idiot. Well that's kinda dumb ngl, but Higurashi was made before Umineko so whatever. That also means that a culprit(?) wouldn't need to be introduced early in the story, though that would be a terrible move. The culprit is definitely the person who kills Rika. Every time Rika died in the OG Higurashi, she either committed suicide, or Takano killed her. I think the same thing is happening in Gou as well. We were given the description that a construction worker came up to Rika at recess, so it could be Okonogi. Well, we won't be able to piece the full picture now so we'll have to wait for the next 2 arcs. Battler may not be in the scenes but he is around there. He can react to the corpses, the survivors, everything first hand. By the time Ooishi arrives ta the scene, it is already heavily tampered and for all we know he gets second hand information through his colleagues. But lets forget that, even in Umineko we have no proof it follows Knox on purpose. It is made a point in the limbo scene Battler has in Ep5, Dlanor tells him to use it to get a different approach to the mystery. Dlanor, Erika and the others are able to use Knox because the Game Masters allow them to, not because they have any proof that Beatrice or even Lambda followed Knox. It may be solvable with Knox but doesnt necessarily follow it. It is more about trust in the author than the rules themselves. I am sure I am pissing off many people now. |
ssjokg said: ArcueidBestGirl said: Alright, I have questions for you in return: What is a detective? What makes someone a detective? If being present at the crimes is one of the conditions, then Battler spectacularly fails at being one in Episode 4. In the first place, do we even need a detective? Knox's rules do have conditions for the detective, but it never specified that a detective is never needed. Hold up a sec. If there is no detective, then the rules don't have to be followed. Ohhhhhhh, everything makes sense now, I'm an idiot. Well that's kinda dumb ngl, but Higurashi was made before Umineko so whatever. That also means that a culprit(?) wouldn't need to be introduced early in the story, though that would be a terrible move. The culprit is definitely the person who kills Rika. Every time Rika died in the OG Higurashi, she either committed suicide, or Takano killed her. I think the same thing is happening in Gou as well. We were given the description that a construction worker came up to Rika at recess, so it could be Okonogi. Well, we won't be able to piece the full picture now so we'll have to wait for the next 2 arcs. Battler may not be in the scenes but he is around there. He can react to the corpses, the survivors, everything first hand. By the time Ooishi arrives ta the scene, it is already heavily tampered and for all we know he gets second hand information through his colleagues. But lets forget that, even in Umineko we have no proof it follows Knox on purpose. It is made a point in the limbo scene Battler has in Ep5, Dlanor tells him to use it to get a different approach to the mystery. Dlanor, Erika and the others are able to use Knox because the Game Masters allow them to, not because they have any proof that Beatrice or even Lambda followed Knox. It may be solvable with Knox but doesnt necessarily follow it. It is more about trust in the author than the rules themselves. I am sure I am pissing off many people now. That is true for Gou, but in OG, Ooishi was directly in charge of the investigation of Tomitake and did was their first-hand (though this is the OG I think). Lets also not forget how much Beatrice messed up the corpses beyond recognition in EP 1 and EP 2. That is true, we have no proof that it follows Knox on purpose. In fact if I remember correctly, Dlanor says to Battler something along the lines that Knox's rules can be used because of the nature of the gameboard. So there isn't any guarantee that Higurashi will follow Knox as well. I do think it more about trusting Ryukishi07. People solved Sh/Kannon even before the 4 answer arcs were released, so I doubt Gou is going to be unsolvable from information from the 4 answer arcs. |
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ArcueidBestGirl said: The only way you can solve the whole mystery figure out the culprit with only Onikakushi in the original was shooting completely in the dark. It was possible, but extremely unlikely. The culprit was introduced as nobody special in the first arc, and there were some consistent clues. But all you could do is guess, just like we're doing here now. You could find that character interesting, and start suspecting it, but it would be a wild guess.ssjokg said: Battler may not be in the scenes but he is around there. He can react to the corpses, the survivors, everything first hand. By the time Ooishi arrives ta the scene, it is already heavily tampered and for all we know he gets second hand information through his colleagues. But lets forget that, even in Umineko we have no proof it follows Knox on purpose. It is made a point in the limbo scene Battler has in Ep5, Dlanor tells him to use it to get a different approach to the mystery. Dlanor, Erika and the others are able to use Knox because the Game Masters allow them to, not because they have any proof that Beatrice or even Lambda followed Knox. It may be solvable with Knox but doesnt necessarily follow it. It is more about trust in the author than the rules themselves. I am sure I am pissing off many people now. That is true for Gou, but in OG, Ooishi was directly in charge of the investigation of Tomitake and did was their first-hand (though this is the OG I think). Lets also not forget how much Beatrice messed up the corpses beyond recognition in EP 1 and EP 2. That is true, we have no proof that it follows Knox on purpose. In fact if I remember correctly, Dlanor says to Battler something along the lines that Knox's rules can be used because of the nature of the gameboard. So there isn't any guarantee that Higurashi will follow Knox as well. I do think it more about trusting Ryukishi07. People solved Sh/Kannon even before the 4 answer arcs were released, so I doubt Gou is going to be unsolvable from information from the 4 answer arcs. The same happened in Umineko, I knew what happened that night, I just didn't know who did it. You could only solve the mystery right away by luck, but you could figure out little mysteries here and there. The syringe couldn't be figured out in the anime, but in the VN, the way Mion handles the syringe implies that it wasn't a syringe. Of course, I had the view of someone that already knew, but if you take notes on the hints you catch up, you can reach up some conclusions pretty earlier than when it's shown. If Gou is to follow the same pattern, I believe the culprit must've already been introduced. Idk about the other works, but at least in Higurashi and Umineko, they were introduced in the first arc. At least I think it's important, so we can keep guessing until the time arrives, like we're suspecting Satoko, in example. The big problem was that Ryukishi said it would be new-viewer friendly, and I don't think it'll be at all. Taking that into account, there's a lot more people we could suspect. Arc by arc, we'll get more information. Tatarigoroshi was really... weird, but the first hint about GHD came there. Let's see what happens in Tataridamashi, though I'm not exactly 'hyped'. It really looks like everyone was pretty on edge... okay, I'll be honest... Rena was really on edge. Who knows what'll change. Correction: You cannot solve the mystery with only Onikakushi, I meant figure out the culprit, by chance, extremely unlikely. I also said things about Teppei and all, but we're all really curious about what will happen instead of the GHD, as it really looks like it'll not happen in Tataridamashi, to say the least not the same incident. |
rafaelfserafimNov 25, 2020 6:01 PM
rafaelfserafim said: The big problem was that Ryukishi said it would be new-viewer friendly, and I don't think it'll be at all. Taking that into account, there's a lot more people we could suspect. Arc by arc, we'll get more information. Tatarigoroshi was really... weird, but the first hint about GHD came there. This is the biggest thing for me - for it to be new viewer friendly, how much can the endgame actually diverge from the original? Whatever we get can't be too meta or rely on entertainment/shock coming from a twist on the established formula. It's thoughts like that that make me think it is highly possible the culprit didn't change - there is just something happening to change the way the tried-and-true scenarios in Hinamizawa are playing out. |
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