Kill la Kill Episode 16 Discussion

Feb 1, 2014 11:57 AM

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Sep 2013

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The bath scene shows Ragyo making Satsuki inconfortable of her body/sexuality so that she needs to cover herself. Effectively raising her affinity with the evil alien clothing overlords.

Ragyo is imposing shame on her daughters so that she will be willing to succeed her and accept clothing. No wonder why pride and true strenght trough force of will is so important for Satsuki. Pigs in humans clothing digusts her because those people rely on their appearence/clothes alone.

It also explains why Satsuki hates to wear them and didn't until Ryuuko forced her hand. And why she hates her mother.

Loved the alien explanation it fits perfectly with the show.

Di-DorvalFeb 1, 2014 12:13 PM

Feb 1, 2014 12:26 PM

#202

AnimageNeby

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Feb 2013

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Pipoko said:

AnimageNeby said:

animeoppai said:

Pipoko said:
eurgh there are people who found that scene hot. That's creepy. Especially since Satsuki clearly looked like she was in pain and uncomfortable. That wasn't played for fanservice or fun at all. It was uncomfortable and creepy, reinforcing the idea of oppression through these clothes - Ragyo is making sure her daughter remains under her "control" in the most disgusting way possible. Makes for a really effective villain, though.

As for all the actual fanservice and why that scene can't be actually considered fanservice - Firstly, the "fun" fanservice is balanced out by an equal amount of manservice. Secondly, nakedness is actually tied into the plot and themes of the series. Despite the surface there is a theme going on here and there's purpose to it. That's very separate from empty fanservice series and the reason why that scene wasn't just there to be creepy, uncomfortable fetish fuel.

I felt immensely bad for Satsuki. That entire was scene was uncomfortable and gross however I do think they pandered it to make it fanservice-y.

Though I agree with your last conclusion, I disagree with your first part. That bath scene was pretty hot, however you look at it (at least, for a man, and no doubt for some woman as well). Much depends on how you interpret the context however; you can see it as subjugation of Satsuki to Ragyo (and thus, dominance of the latter), but you can also see it as her mother helping out her daughter by opening her chakra's so she can better withstand the the suit (this was the in-story explanation).

Same goes for the interpretation of she being in pain and all that. Well, she was already in pain before, due to her suit taking a toll. I didn't see any signs of her being in pain from what her mother did, rather, to be honest, it seemed she came and had an orgasm (the blushing, the wriggling, the 'drop' at the end which fade-in to her head laying in the water all indicated that). One could as well say instead of feeling pain, she felt pleasure too, thus. Maybe both.

Of course, it still remains a bit creepy when you consider the context of mother-daughter, making it incestuous, which, in real life is frown upon (well, actually forbidden in most countries I think). But that's a meta interpretation coming from the viewer with real-life morals of the current age we live in (in ancient Greece, Egypt, Roman times, it wasn't all that weird that the 'top' of societal hierarchy married his own brother/sister, for instance). Morals change, however, and we're talking about a 'universe' created by a mangaka or in this case anime studio here; why would our ethics and mores be valid there? And even IF we take those mores as a given to be applied to that world, it still needs that incest-context to be found disturbing. On itself, though, you see two beautiful naked women, where on fondles the other into an orgasm. That is hot, period. It's well done yuri.

Imagine it like this: if next week Satsuki said she's fine with, and there would be a subplot revealing they are not actually mother-daughter, what complaints would you still have? Then suddenly there would be no reasons not to find it 'not hot' anymore. This shows the relative uselessness of applying real life mores on an anime or fictional world, because there is no 'real' context there, only one provided by the creators, which isn't fixed nor real.

So yeah, if you interpret it in the context of incest and her mother trying to dominate her, you may find it disturbing. If you interpret it differently, or look at it without using a particular context, the scene itself can not else be described as pretty damn hot, however. Most interpret it with both, which is why you you see many commenting on that scene with "weird/disturbing, but hot". I don't think this can be denied. Imagine you show only that scene to someone (preferably a male) who doesn't know squad about kill la kill or the (incest) context; I doubt they would find it anything but hot.

I mentioned that I meant pain in a mental sense in another post in this thread and she definitely had some pained expressions on her face, prior to when her mother did that. Also, regardless what the relationship between Ragyo and Satsuki is, Ragyo has been shown villainous, that it's incest just makes it more uncomfortable. Even if it's not incest, they still seem to have the typical mother-daughter type of relationship. I probably phrased my point a little poorly, but Ragyo's '"Clothing is sin" line is important here. She's the one who's spreading this "sin", which makes the scene with her and Sastuki additionally uncomfortable and creepy. She wants her to cover up, is what I mean by "controlling" her, she wants her to be just like all the masses that wear the clothes. The intention is behbind the scene is pretty clear to me. I mean, in the end it's a mother sexually abusing her daughter.

tl; dr Of course it can just come across as creepy fetish fuel and pandering, but to me personally(and thankfully!) that doesn't seem to be the actual intention at all considering the previous scenes with Ragyo. Context is very important here. If they end up just brushing over it, taking it lightly, end up playing it up as fun or something like that I'll just drop the series.

I just think people are overthinking and melodramatising this too much. I just saw an animeblog about KlK ep.16 where they were already describing that Satseku got sexually abused by her mom from age 7 and how it's about pedo/lolicon showing and how this affects people in r/l and even if it was acceptable to make such things, and how sorry they feel for Satsuki being sexually abused whole her life, and I was like: wow, wow, dudes (well, actually it was a woman); chill out. Most of it is just in the head of the viewer, really. On itself it's just a pretty hot anime scene. There is no extra drama to be made here.

Context may be very important, but as said, there is no 'real' context in a manga or anime. The main 'disturbed sense' from it comes just from the interpretation that 1) It's mother and daughter, 2)that the mother is trying to dominate her daughter, 3)that Satsuki is against it and is in 'mental' pain from it.

But we don't actually KNOW that. I'm not saying this interpretation is wrong; Satsuki IS indeed rather passive, they ARE currently portrayed as mother-daughter, and Satsuki might well dislike it. But that's ultimately, conjecture; there is no reason to hype (well, dramatise) the scene. (Not saying you do, but some sure do). What if in a couple of weeks it turns out that they aren't really mother and daughter, and she didn't really mind the fondling? You may call this 'brushing over', but if that IS the case, it is what it is, and all this melodrama being made about it would look rather silly, would it not?

That are the two extreme positions, but others are possible. For instance, what if they're really mother-daughter, and she really feels her up, but this is necessary to open her chakra's so she gets a better affinity? (Let's not forget this IS the in-story reason for it). Imagine Ragyo didn't do it, and as a consequence next time her daughter dons her suit, she dies. Would that be better, then? I mean, if the choice is to fondle your daughter and make sure her chances of survival augment, or not doing it, increasing her chances to die, wouldn't one have to conclude she actually did a good thing?

Another interpretation can be, that Satsuki doesn't care one way or another. When she was first shown in her skimpy suit, she explicitly said she didn't feel any shame for it, because she doesn't care about the opinion of the masses. aka, she doesn't hold to the mores of society. she doesn't care about what is considered shameful or a sin. Why would that change there? When she was first fondled by her mom, when she was still in her suit, she only formerly said: "Thank you mother." Yes, one can interpret that as being 'used' to a life full of abuse, as some see it. But you can also simply deduce Satsuki just doesn't care, and does not feel it matters.

I'm just a bit tired of some people always coming up with the most melodramatic of explanations. Look at this 'mental pain' argument I see often used. That's just an interpretation that's more derived from what you think it is, than of what is actually shown. I've re-watched that scene several times now, and I don't see that prove of 'mental pain' anywhere. What you see is, that she already has pain when she goes into the bath. Whether this is mental pain or physical pain; who knows? Seen her fatigue, I rather think the latter, but whatever. When her mom makes the explanation of what she will do, and says she will purify her, she shows surprise. Not mental pain, just surprise. When she starts fondling her, she shows some expressions and gives some slight gasps that are more due to arousal, than an indication of pain, mental or otherwise. At the end, she clearly moans and probably gets an orgasm. Now, I'm fully aware that you can get aroused, even if one is subjugated to sexual handlings against ones' will, but this in turn doesn't mean that signs of arousal should be interpreted as being in mental pain neither.

There is actually very little indications she is in any mental pain, it's just people thinking that, because she remains passive, and it's her mom doing that. My point in my other post was exactly this: put the same scene without that particular context, and people will NOT see it as abuse, just as a hot yuri scene. Then the 'mental pain' would not be there in that scene, the abuse would not be viewable, all those other dramatic interpretations would nowhere to be detected. It's all, or 'mostly' in any case, in the head of the viewer.

Now, I'm not saying any of the above interpretation is my personal view, I'm just saying different interpretations ARE possible, and people sometimes see things that aren't there, or at least, not actually shown. Some people start with the notion that, since it's mom-daughter - and therefore wrong, from our own current mores - it MUST be abusive, and she MUST be in mental pain, and she MUST have been abused her entire life and become accustomed to the abuse, etc. None of this is actually founded on any facts, however. Maybe her mom fondled her so she could survive the next time she put on Junketsu, just as was hinted at in-story; then what?

My personal view on this is something in between; I do think her mom wants to dominate everything, including her daughter (Just as Satsuki also wants to dominate everything). I also do think they are, in effect, mother and daughter, so strictly speaking it was incestuous behaviour, viewed from our r/l stance. At the other hand, I don't think Satsuki really was in any 'mental pain' from it, rather, she just doesn't care about those things. The only dislike she may have, is that another wants to control her, while she obviously is strong-willed herself and won't let herself be controlled endlessly; so yes, a clash with mom is inevitable, but that is regardless of any sexual innuendo. I also think that, at least in-story, it IS indeed true that what her mom did, helped her to open her chakra's (otherwise, the scene where her chakra's is shown to open up in bright light doesn't make any sense), and thus, her mom actually helped her by doing these things.

What it really meant in-story for Satsuki, we don't know, however. We didn't see any sign of appreciation for it, true, but no real resistance too, and the *reason* for this lack of resistance ain't therefore that she got 'used to being abused'. Maybe she genuinely doesn't care, or maybe, in this specific case, she allowed her mom because she actually wanted her life-fiber affinity augmented. Who knows? Maybe we'll get more hints later on. Or maybe they just don't consider it a sin, just like the Farao's in ancient Egypt. Or maybe they viewed it more, indeed, as a chakra-purification than as incest/something sexual.

To be frank, it would be more in line of Satsuki's character, when asked if one could fondle her if she thereby got greater power, she would shrug her shoulders and say: "Go ahead." If she gets a step closer to her personal plan to shape the universe to her worldview, I don't think she cares for any earthly , let alone moral, concern. She swallowed her pride for it when she had to retreat after the last fight with Ryuko, so she certainly wouldn't care about some fondling if it allowed her to go through with her plans.

That said, I'm not naive. In a meta sense, that scene was also placed there as fanservice, no doubt about it. *As such*, it was rather good, I thought. Given the specific context, it also felt weird, of course, but maybe that was something they wanted to evoke too: contrary feelings, in a mix of a drooling 'wow' and a shocked 'yuck'. People tend to polarise, also on this topic, and go for the one or the other, but in reality, I think one can safely say it's both: there is a creepy factor in there, but also a feeling-hot aspect.

Now...ok; it could also be justified to claim it was to demonstrate the wickedness of her mom and establishing her as the real evil antagonist, but...one has to be careful with that; this assumption might come back to bite you. After all, during the first dozen episodes, Satsuki herself seemed like a fascist bitch and the ultimate evil antagonist, but slowly but surely we see she also has her good sides. Maybe it's the same with the mom: a multi-layered 'villain'. She fondles her daughter, which is bad, but does it, because it augments her survival chances, which is good. All these things should be taken into consideration, before anyone makes huge assumptions or see things that aren't there, imho.

AnimageNebyFeb 1, 2014 12:54 PM

Feb 1, 2014 12:34 PM

#203

Heiize

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Mar 2013

2154

Dat purification.

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Feb 1, 2014 12:38 PM

#204

AnimageNeby

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Feb 2013

623

yukishiromei said:
Dat purification.

Hm. Come to think of it, I could have just summarised it like that too. ;-)

Feb 1, 2014 12:56 PM

#205

Pipoko

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Sep 2012

378

AnimageNeby said:
quote

Well, we all base our assumptions and interpertations on what we know so far and that can be easily proven wrong by the following story. Personally, I'd just be seriously pissed if what that scene implied turns out just to be played as fanservice because of the uncomfortable aspects of it. I think it was to villainize her and the serious tone of the scene supports that, along with what I brought up previously. I feel like while the series isn't super complicated, it still has a little meaning behind it.

I don't know if that's a good example, but

PipokoFeb 1, 2014 1:14 PM

Feb 1, 2014 1:16 PM

#206

AnimageNeby

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Feb 2013

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Pipoko said:

AnimageNeby said:
quote

Well, we all base our assumptions and interpertations on what we know so far and that can be easily proven wrong by the following story. Personally, I'd just be seriously pissed if what that scene implied turns out just to be played as fanservice because of the uncomfortable aspects of it. I think it was to villainize her and the serious tone of the scene sort of supports that, along with what I brought up previously. I feel like while the series isn't super complicated, it still has a little meaning behind it.

I don't know if that's a good example, but you know how Kamina didn't die just because it's sad, but that his death had a thematic reason? That kind of meaning.

True, and as said in my last paragraph, it's a valid interpretation too. However, what I wanted to point out is, that one shouldn't look at it too one sided. If it was just about the abuse, it wasn't necessary to show opening up her chakra's in a flash of light, for instance. It would have been more effective to 'villanize' her without actually introducing an aspect that makes the handling more ambiguous (possibly even life-saving). Her incestuous behaviour, thus, could be seen in more then just a negative light too, thus. That's why I say the antagonists in KlK are multi-layered. And just as with Satsuki, this could be - to some lesser degree - be the case for her mom as well. The other thing I wanted to point out is that one should not polarise too much: the scene can be found to be creepy as well as hot, not only one or the other. If one polarises from a given mindset, you see expressions of mental pain, for instance, where it could be as well expressions of arousal.

I also agree that many 'nude' scenes in KlK have an ulterior motive other than fanservice; it's often used as a metaphor throughout the series. That said, this does not meant it ALSO is not fanservice. Because to some degree, it clearly is. But it's not as gratuitous and ill-fitting as it is with a lot of other anime, true. Again, also in this; it's not an or-or thing. The nakedness and sexual undertones often have a meaning, AND/BUT they are also fanservice.

To be honest, I find the fanservice, for the reasons I (and you) said, not annoying at all, in Kill la Kill. I have no trouble with nudity or sexual innuendo or pantyshots or whatever, as long as it fits in the anime. I DO have a high dislike for fanservice when it's done in a way you just *know* the only reason it's put there is to cater to the masses, even though it's irrelevant or ill-fitting with the scene shown. I really dislike that, even more so than bad CGI in an anime. KlK is so over the top, I don't mind the over the top nudity neither. Heck, even the recap is over the top. And, as said, there is more than one layer of meaning to it, even though *one* of the reasons still remains fanservice, of course.

AnimageNebyFeb 1, 2014 1:58 PM

Feb 1, 2014 1:26 PM

#207

Patureau

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Jul 2013

200

Great recap Senketsu... Anyway, this OP I liked, much more epic then the first one, didnt care for the new ED though, also this episode really made me wish for a Ryuko/Satsuki team up at some point, would be great

DAT SATSUKI FANSERVICE THOUGH... good stuff

And people, one advice... Stop over analyzing stuff

Moderator Edit
Please stop double posting

Suzune-chanFeb 1, 2014 1:36 PM

Feb 1, 2014 1:37 PM

#208

AnimageNeby

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Feb 2013

623

Patureau said:
And people, one advice... Stop over analyzing stuff

Lol, true, I get carried away sometimes, especially if I see interpretations of others who seem a bit overbearing in its assumptions.

Like the whole question whether it's fanservice, or has deeper meaning...well, why can't it be both? Or if it's to be considered a 'hot' bathtub-scene, or a creepy one; again, one can consider it to be both, imho. Etc.

Feb 1, 2014 1:45 PM

#209

Pipoko

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Sep 2012

378

AnimageNeby said:
quote

I agree about the fanservice part. Many complain about it, but there's an equal amount of manservice to balance it out, I can tolerate it, it's fair to all genders. It's also most of the time played for laughs because of the cartoony art style and the feeling of the series in general, but I can only tolerate any kind of fanservice if there's more to a series than flashing panties and boobs or abs and it proves itself to me somehow in other aspects.

PipokoFeb 1, 2014 1:55 PM

Feb 1, 2014 2:14 PM

#210

AnimageNeby

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Feb 2013

623

Pipoko said:

AnimageNeby said:
quote

I agree about the fanservice part. Many complain about it, but there's an equal amount of manservice to balance it out, I can tolerate it, it's fair to all genders. It's also most of the time played for laughs because of the cartoony art style and the feeling of the series in general, but I can only tolerate any kind of fanservice if there's more to a series than flashing panties and boobs or abs and it proves itself to me somehow in other aspects.

Agreed. I have no complaints about the fanservice in KlK, and I never do in an anime, as long as it makes some sense, just like you. (I remember some sexual scenes in Shin Sekai Yori between minors, where some people really were complaining and freaking out about, but which I personally had no problems with it, because it fitted in the universe of that world, and it wasn't overbearing or placed there just to cater to the fans. Same with the kiss between two boys in the anime No.6 ; oh my, you should have seen the homophobia spring up like crazy and the idiotic comments on that.)

On the other hand, even simple pantyshots in an anime can piss me of greatly, if done in an overly blatant and overbearing way. You know what I mean: 'ecchi' scenes or shots, that simply do not fit the mood of the scene, or have any relevance with anything in the anime itself. I just don't want to get the feeling I'm treated as a fool, and being shoved some fanservice in my face, put there just to cater to the masses.

Most people complain about fanservice, if they complain, because of the *nature* of the (sexual/nude) scenes shown. I don't care about that. Whether it's a mere panty-shot, or full-blown yuri or yaoi isn't really important. I care about how well it fits in the anime, if there is any sense in it, what the purpose is, etc.

I don't mind boobs or asses or whatever, but if I really want to (only) see that, I'll go watch Hentai. A more profound anime, worth my time and not only catering to the 'low desires' ;-), can have sexual scenes in it, but they must make sense or fit in, because with those anime, it's the whole of the presentation that counts; story, (sub)plots, characterisation, portrayed relations, worldbuilding, action, etc.

Feb 1, 2014 4:40 PM

#211

DarkCyclone

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Dec 2012

148

That was actually decent. I'm not gonna lie and say my hopes weren't low. I wasn't expecting an improvement

It took one episode of characters sitting down explaining key plot points to have a major improvement over the previous 3 eps. It's sad this is happening at episode 16 but at least it's happening

Feb 1, 2014 4:49 PM

#212

Fiji

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Dec 2011

6101

This episode is just awesome. New OP and ED. And the revelation behind Life Fibers... and the flashback last as an intro. LOL. This is Kill la Kill alright!

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Feb 1, 2014 5:51 PM

#213

HalibelTheEspada

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Jun 2012

1347

Man, that was the best recap episode ever, all recaps should be like that one. I have to say I was seriously disappointed when I found out it was going to be a recap. The instant I started it I thought "Huh, Senketsu is introducing it... I'm sure they won't do it, since that would suck if they made a recap so late in a series that's hardly even developed yet." then it happened and I was sad, and then laughed when they played it off like that.

Have to say, what stood out most for me this episode was Ryuko's impressive mound of venus. Kinda hoping Senketsu doesn't have to fight now. :P

Other than that, we finally got the new opening/ending everyone's been hoping for, and some somewhat decent plot development.

Feb 1, 2014 6:05 PM

#214

Yasu-kun

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Jun 2012

3948

cool new OP & ED

great episode, I finally caught up!

Feb 1, 2014 6:08 PM

#215

BurntJelly

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Feb 2013

6196

Best recap episode ever!

Very informational episode. That bath scene...

What's with the cutsie Mako ED? Was that a zombie I saw?...

Feb 1, 2014 9:10 PM

#216

AgentChico

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Jul 2013

516

To be honest, I really enjoyed the recap since it wasn't a full episode like most anime do. And for an recap it's pretty funny when Senketsu was commentating it all quick.
I love the new opening and I like the ending song. The only problem was the.. the uhhh... bath scene. I enjoy the fanservice but just.. yeah lol

Can't wait for next week episode! :D

Feb 1, 2014 10:03 PM

#217

stand

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Aug 2011

7279

Good episode, thankfully.
A couple of episodes before this were just so average that they were starting to lose me.

Feb 1, 2014 10:10 PM

#218

jamesjaimegarcia

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Oct 2013

33

Wait.... so am I to understand that people watch the newly aired episodes without subtitles when they can't even understand it? That sounds like fucking torture! Who in their right mind commits such heinous acts????

Let me just say to those people, the episode was good. Watch it in a language you can understand.

Feb 1, 2014 10:17 PM

#219

Catastrophic

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Sep 2010

231

I was gonna make a remark on the good job this did on plot advancement and the fantastic inclusion of Lovecraftian elements onto the plot but... Satsuki's orgasmic face made me forget all of that, holy fu*k

CatastrophicFeb 1, 2014 10:22 PM

Feb 1, 2014 10:56 PM

#220

darkninj12

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Mar 2012

486

Satsuki showing some expression

Feb 2, 2014 1:35 AM

#221

Sageie

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Aug 2013

88

finally someone figured out that recaps can be 20 sec not 20 min, lol senketsu looks like he jawdropped at the last frame

"he that chooses his own path needs no map" - queen kristina of Sweden

Feb 2, 2014 3:10 AM

#222

blasphy

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Jul 2008

151

parfaited said:
Good episode, thankfully.
A couple of episodes before this were just so average that they were starting to lose me.

Agreed. The series was getting a bit stale and dull for the past few weeks. But things are starting to rev up. New opening to boot, so I'm looking forward to the last half of the show.

Feb 2, 2014 3:58 AM

#223

siebener

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Apr 2013

6

Satsuki shown some "degradation" of her character. I'm not sure but her appearances are often sexualized lately.
So the life fibers are equivalent to the anti spirals now?
Btw I love the new OP :D

Feb 2, 2014 4:41 AM

#224

Kousoku11

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Nov 2011

688

It was odd to see Satsuki looking non-stern at the beginning of the episode.

...well, it was certainly odd to see her being raped by her mother as well, but that will certainly be addressed more often than the former fact.

Quality of the show went up, nevertheless. That's always a good thing.

Feb 2, 2014 4:41 AM

#225

Mojibake

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Oct 2013

457

Recap really hit it home that almost nothing of note has happened in these 16 episodes. The Big Bad is a giant ball of wool and clothes are aliens?

Wasting their small budget on pointless episodes up to this point will definitely come back to bite Trigger, I won't expect anything more than a rushed conclusion with more asspulling.

⚞ animelist | mangalist ⚟

Feb 2, 2014 5:51 AM

#226

WyattEarp

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Apr 2009

339

Imaishi showing his directorial mastery as usual, despite being completely an info dump episode it was kept extremely interesting by the different locales, character interactions, and an excellent use of soundtrack throughout.

I mean I've personally enjoyed every ep so far, and to the people who think this info dump is coming too late, I think it's fine, and that they did a great job establishing the tone of this series through the first 15 eps, and I think thats kinda essential for such this wacky series. Kill la Kill is just more of a love it or hate it type show, but I find that often those types of shows often go down as classics, eva for example.

Anyways, can't wait for what's to come, Kill la kill is already the best anime I've seen in the past few years, and I can't wait for what's to come.

Feb 2, 2014 7:14 AM

#227

DiegoCCamara

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Apr 2010

50

Loved the recap joke, it took everyone by surprise! Also, finally we have a decent opening and a cute ending with Mako.

But I have some complains, not about the Fibers of Life being aliens, that's ok, but all the explanation was to expositive! They could have developed it in a better way through the previous episodes, instead giving us a pack full of dialogues for 20 minutes.

Well, let's see what will happen next =)

Feb 2, 2014 8:31 AM

#228

octal9

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Oct 2011

1049

bestest episode ever! that yuri/incest keep-it-in-family scene was one of the sexiest things i've ever had the pleasure to see (anime or otherwise) - sent shivers up and down my spine - greatest recap joke at the beginning - saving anime for the world! i'm gonna go watch that scene over again right now..........

Feb 2, 2014 9:27 AM

#229

Aozure

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Oct 2009

3262

What a troll announcer with that recap, scared me quite a bit :/

Awesome new OP, love it! ED is nice.

DAT Satsuki fanservice though!!! OOHHhhhhh~~ that was beautiful *-*!

The Life Fibers reminds me a bit of the Symbiote from Spider-Man XD

I don't think Satsuki plans to go through with her mothers ambitions, things she have said before goes against this.

AozureFeb 2, 2014 9:32 AM

Feb 2, 2014 10:16 AM

#230

bloodgods

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Oct 2011

281

THANK GOD NEW OST the first one was boring as hell

Feb 2, 2014 11:56 AM

#231

AnimageNeby

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Feb 2013

623

Kousoku11 said:
It was odd to see Satsuki looking non-stern at the beginning of the episode.

...well, it was certainly odd to see her being raped by her mother as well, but that will certainly be addressed more often than the former fact.

Quality of the show went up, nevertheless. That's always a good thing.

Rape, rape... Let's say 'fondling'. Or 'opening up her chakra's'. ;-p

But; agreed, it was definitely strange to see Satsuki go down (at least on one knee) and be so...vulnerable and tired. Until now, it seemed nothing could touch her, but for the first time, it's shown it takes a heavy tol, and even Satsuki, extra-ordinary strong-willed, begins to feel it. Her empty eyes and fatigue were pretty clear at the scene in the beginning. It's realistic she would feel the backlash, and it shouldn't surprise, but yet it did surprise, seen it being almost out-of-character for her. It's an ambiguous feeling; at one side, it's great we see a more 'normal', vulnerable Satsuki, on the other hand, it feels uncomfortable because one is used to see her as a demi-godess, almost. I think she knows it herself, which is why she only caved in after the door of the heli closed and few but her intimi could see her. For her adversaries, as well as followers, she wants to remain strong, give the impression of invulnerability. Her followers adore her just *because* she's put on a pedestal and seems untouchable by anything, and she knows it.

Even I myself found it a bit disappointing she showed weakness, though at the same time, I kinda appreciate it that she did have and showed that trait. Yes, I know, a bit contradictory.

Wreckages said:
Recap really hit it home that almost nothing of note has happened in these 16 episodes. The Big Bad is a giant ball of wool and clothes are aliens?

Wasting their small budget on pointless episodes up to this point will definitely come back to bite Trigger, I won't expect anything more than a rushed conclusion with more asspulling.

Feel free to drop the series.

octal9 said:
bestest episode ever! that yuri/incest keep-it-in-family scene was one of the sexiest things i've ever had the pleasure to see (anime or otherwise) - sent shivers up and down my spine - greatest recap joke at the beginning - saving anime for the world! i'm gonna go watch that scene over again right now..........

Lol. Well, at least you're unapologetic about it. Better than making it melodramatic. Though it was weird due to the specific context, I actually agree with you it was pretty hot. In fact, even compared to hentai, it was way hotter, because it wasn't slam-bam-in-your-face-full-force, but it was rather subtile in how it was portrayed. So, ok, rationally, and knowing the context, with our head we know it's morally wrong, but...our other head doesn't know the difference anyway and doesn't care. ;-p

Strange thing is, you didn't actually SEE all that much, if you look at it more closely and objectively. A breast being touched (without even a nipple being seen), her neck being massaged, getting lower, Satsuki's hands and legs twitching and her face blushing and slightly moaning, Ragyo's hand slipping upwards her legs... it's more sexual innuendo and suggestions, than there is actually anything to be seen directly (otherwise, this would be a hentai scene, no doubt).

But strangely enough, just because it was more suggested than shown, it was erotic as hell. From a standpoint of fanservice making someone aroused, it did a really great job. (not that I'm saying the nudity and sexual themes in KlK are ONLY there for fanservice, as said before, but to some degree it IS fanservice too).

AnimageNebyFeb 2, 2014 12:34 PM

Feb 2, 2014 12:12 PM

#232

ssjathena

Offline

Nov 2011

225

AnimageNeby said:

Kousoku11 said:

Rape, rape... Let's say 'fondling'. Or 'opening up her chakra's'. ;-p

Opening her 8th chakra's gate by fingering her in the Vag
Ragyo Style Yo

Feb 2, 2014 12:25 PM

#233

AnimageNeby

Offline

Feb 2013

623

ssjathena said:

AnimageNeby said:

Kousoku11 said:

Rape, rape... Let's say 'fondling'. Or 'opening up her chakra's'. ;-p

Opening her 8th chakra's gate by fingering her in the Vag
Ragyo Style Yo

Well, viewed on itself, without a specific context: who would mind being opened their chakra gates - or Steins Gate, for that matter - by Ragyo? :-p

I guess that, if it really needs opening, it's a pretty enjoyable way...

Feb 2, 2014 12:30 PM

#234

LilyWeiss

Offline

Jul 2010

1318

That long-waited new OP,I love it <3 ED has a soft side ,not bad.
It's getting serious and better .Great episode with detailed informations.

Feb 2, 2014 12:53 PM

#235

tsundere-tan

Offline

Apr 2012

71

That bath scene was so strange, I can't tell if they're imply something sexual happening or if it's just the usual over the top style.

I like the new OP and ED a lot more than the old ones I think.

I didn't expect the twist at all, but wasn't *~*aliens*~* TTGL's twist as well?

on my way to steal yo girl

Feb 2, 2014 12:56 PM

#236

tsundere-tan

Offline

Apr 2012

71

Forgot to mention that ending scene was so annoying and forced, Ryuuko doesn't have anything to be upset over imo

on my way to steal yo girl

Feb 2, 2014 1:50 PM

#237

EvianBubble

Offline

Jul 2009

21077

NEW OP AND ED!!! I like the new ones a lot :D Also the recap part at the beginning ... I was worried for a bit I admit :P
So we finally learn more about the "Life Fibers" ... the Kiryuuin family has the original one?! O_O That's crazy ... and even Satsuki's mom noticed her tiring out eh :P That part in the bath was ... interesting XD
So they're an alien species that came down to help humans evolve? I certainly didn't see that coming o_O Also Ryuuko's dad founded Nudist Beach to stop the Kiryuuins and made Senketsu eh ... huh. Pretty interesting stuff :O
We'll see where this all ends up going next episode I guess! I'd love to see more of Nui and Ragyou :P

MT VIP / MT loyalty / KarenShirotori pass / Renee-chan +1 / mutsukii +1, solo / AzureRikkai raffle / Rizkiawan-kun +1 / lunafly +any / _Nagisa slip / Omikami +2 / Kawazoe +2 / Shuuka AB

Feb 2, 2014 1:53 PM

#238

Pipoko

Offline

Sep 2012

378

AnimageNeby said:

quote

"It seems like creepy incest, but it's still actually really hot and I wouldn't mind it to be played as fanservice."

That's what your posts came across to me rereading them.
A scene like this really can't be played as both fanservice and squick considering what exactly it comes across as. It's either only (creepy) fanservice or only squick. If it turns out to be fanservice in the end, it proves that the series is otaku-pandering crap to me and I'll drop it. Just gonna steer clear from this discussion now.

PipokoFeb 2, 2014 2:27 PM

Feb 2, 2014 3:43 PM

#239

removed-user

Offline

Jul 2018

564612

New OP rocks !!!

Feb 2, 2014 4:16 PM

#240

Kokopelli

Offline

Oct 2013

91

I fail to see how that scene can't be unsettling and serious while also being arousing. Something that the show repeatedly emphasizes - as well as Ragyou does in this particular scene - is that nakedness means shame and primal instinct. Perhaps this scene is meant to evoke arousal, shame in that arousal, and shame for Satsuki all at once. If so, I think it was executed brilliantly. It may be the best example in the show so far of the conflict between human and clothing, truth and falsehood, dominance and submission, shame and status, savagery and society.

Feb 2, 2014 4:51 PM

#241

Pipoko

Offline

Sep 2012

378

Kokopelli said:
I fail to see how that scene can't be unsettling and serious while also being arousing. Something that the show repeatedly emphasizes - as well as Ragyou does in this particular scene - is that nakedness means shame and primal instinct. Perhaps this scene is meant to evoke arousal, shame in that arousal, and shame for Satsuki all at once. If so, I think it was executed brilliantly. It may be the best example in the show so far of the conflict between human and clothing, truth and falsehood, dominance and submission, shame and status, savagery and society.

If it's supposed to gross out the viewer or make the viewer feel shame it's not fanservice. Just the intention behind it can't really be both with such a scene, it'll just end up coming off as poorly done, just to specify what I think. First the viewers is "Oh, this villain is totally creepy and disgusting", but then when later it's revealed "jk, it wasn't really what it seemed to be, lol" Why even make the scene with those implications in the first place then? I'd just be annoyed and disappointed. Hopefully something is done with it. Anyway, now I'm done.

Feb 2, 2014 4:51 PM

#242

Reaper71

Offline

Jun 2011

327

Kokopelli said:
I fail to see how that scene can't be unsettling and serious while also being arousing. Something that the show repeatedly emphasizes - as well as Ragyou does in this particular scene - is that nakedness means shame and primal instinct. Perhaps this scene is meant to evoke arousal, shame in that arousal, and shame for Satsuki all at once. If so, I think it was executed brilliantly. It may be the best example in the show so far of the conflict between human and clothing, truth and falsehood, dominance and submission, shame and status, savagery and society.

That is far too profound, good sir, for my comparatively pedestrian mental faculties.

OnT: I didn't like this episode. The yuri/incest scene with Satsuki and Ragyou was very much out of left field, and wasn't called for in the slightest. The big reveal (LIFE FIBERS R ALIENS) felt extremely cheap to me, and most of the episode was poorly delivered exposition. It was an extremely disappointing showing for an episode touted as "the big reveal".

I'm still going to keep watching, though...

And what if all love is an act of bravery?

Could you look me in the eye and say that you are not afraid?

Feb 2, 2014 6:08 PM

#243

Dark_Messiah

Offline

May 2012

1695

that pool scene was so sexy.. i dont think matoi need to snap at the end, just to execute nakama BS..
nice OP btw..

Feb 2, 2014 6:59 PM

#244

HalibelTheEspada

Offline

Jun 2012

1347

Pipoko said:

If it's supposed to gross out the viewer or make the viewer feel shame it's not fanservice. Just the intention behind it can't really be both with such a scene, it'll just end up coming off as poorly done, just to specify what I think. First the viewers is "Oh, this villain is totally creepy and disgusting", but then when later it's revealed "jk, it wasn't really what it seemed to be, lol" Why even make the scene with those implications in the first place then? I'd just be annoyed and disappointed. Hopefully something is done with it. Anyway, now I'm done.

I disagree, you might as well say that when Aikuro starts stripping that it's not fanservice, because most men would probably be put off by it. Whether it grosses some/most people out all comes down to tastes, and the shame part comes from morals... so fanservice is completely subjective. I think Kokopeli is pretty dead on to what the series was aiming for. The very first thing that came to my mind watching Satsuki in that scene was shame, because for her I'd think submitting to anyone is shameful, especially right after losing a fight against Ryuko.

Personally that scene wasn't all that strange to me (of course, when you've seen shows like "The Client List" it's really not as big a deal). Honestly it could've been a lot worse, and wasn't even as bad as other scenes in the show... it was basically just her mother giving her a deep massage to relieve the tension in her body, which apparently went a little lower than expected. :/

Feb 2, 2014 8:18 PM

#245

fanatrick

Offline

May 2012

68

animeoppai said:

AnimageNeby said:

animeoppai said:

Pipoko said:
eurgh there are people who found that scene hot. That's creepy. Especially since Satsuki clearly looked like she was in pain and uncomfortable. That wasn't played for fanservice or fun at all. It was uncomfortable and creepy, reinforcing the idea of oppression through these clothes - Ragyo is making sure her daughter remains under her "control" in the most disgusting way possible. Makes for a really effective villain, though.

As for all the actual fanservice and why that scene can't be actually considered fanservice - Firstly, the "fun" fanservice is balanced out by an equal amount of manservice. Secondly, nakedness is actually tied into the plot and themes of the series. Despite the surface there is a theme going on here and there's purpose to it. That's very separate from empty fanservice series and the reason why that scene wasn't just there to be creepy, uncomfortable fetish fuel.

I felt immensely bad for Satsuki. That entire was scene was uncomfortable and gross however I do think they pandered it to make it fanservice-y.

Though I agree with your last conclusion, I disagree with your first part. That bath scene was pretty hot, however you look at it (at least, for a man, and no doubt for some woman as well). Much depends on how you interpret the context however; you can see it as subjugation of Satsuki to Ragyo (and thus, dominance of the latter), but you can also see it as her mother helping out her daughter by opening her chakra's so she can better withstand the the suit (this was the in-story explanation).

Same goes for the interpretation of she being in pain and all that. Well, she was already in pain before, due to her suit taking a toll. I didn't see any signs of her being in pain from what her mother did, rather, to be honest, it seemed she came and had an orgasm (the blushing, the wriggling, the 'drop' at the end which fade-in to her head laying in the water all indicated that). One could as well say instead of feeling pain, she felt pleasure too, thus. Maybe both.

Of course, it still remains a bit creepy when you consider the context of mother-daughter, making it incestuous, which, in real life is frown upon (well, actually forbidden in most countries I think). But that's a meta interpretation coming from the viewer with real-life morals of the current age we live in (in ancient Greece, Egypt, Roman times, it wasn't all that weird that the 'top' of societal hierarchy married his own brother/sister, for instance). Morals change, however, and we're talking about a 'universe' created by a mangaka or in this case anime studio here; why would our ethics and mores be valid there? And even IF we take those mores as a given to be applied to that world, it still needs that incest-context to be found disturbing. On itself, though, you see two beautiful naked women, where on fondles the other into an orgasm. That is hot, period. It's well done yuri.

Imagine it like this: if next week Satsuki said she's fine with, and there would be a subplot revealing they are not actually mother-daughter, what complaints would you still have? Then suddenly there would be no reasons not to find it 'not hot' anymore. This shows the relative uselessness of applying real life mores on an anime or fictional world, because there is no 'real' context there, only one provided by the creators, which isn't fixed nor real.

So yeah, if you interpret it in the context of incest and her mother trying to dominate her, you may find it disturbing. If you interpret it differently, or look at it without using a particular context, the scene itself can not else be described as pretty damn hot, however. Most interpret it with both, which is why you you see many commenting on that scene with "weird/disturbing, but hot". I don't think this can be denied. Imagine you show only that scene to someone (preferably a male) who doesn't know squad about kill la kill or the (incest) context; I doubt they would find it anything but hot.

Well there's no doubt that the scene was pretty hot (saying this as a girl) but we're talking about the context here. Think about it, your mom jerks you off to "open your chakras". Disgusting, right? That scene is basically a mom fingering her own daughter to "open her chakras" (which I still don't get 100%) and it's fucked up no matter what kind of relationship they have.

I actually didn't think of her in pain while she was being molested. It's normal if even if you're being raped or molested to feel arousal regardless if you like it or not so I kind of assumed that (you can read an IAMA about that subject here).

Gah.

Have you ever fucked?

Feb 2, 2014 8:28 PM

#246

MrAwesome2018

Offline

Aug 2012

4166

Don't rly like the new OP, old one was way better.

Feb 2, 2014 9:32 PM

#247

Kokopelli

Offline

Oct 2013

91

@Pipoko
I didn't say it was fanservice; I said that it was meant to be arousing, which can be used artistically for outcomes other than mere viewer gratification.

@Reaper71
The bath scene wasn't out of left field whatsoever. Ragyou's speech in Episode 13 set her up as the spokesperson of sin and clothing (which, in KlK, has parasitic, savage and sexual undertones), and shortly after, she groped her daughter suggestively. Anyway, the bath scene clearly reinforces the themes of shame and submission, even just taking into consideration what Ragyou is saying and Satsuki's reactions. Even the from the beginning of the episode, we are given a glimpse of Satsuki's weakness. Being "uncalled for" made it easier to hit a note in the audience.

That Life Fibers are parasitic and non-man-made makes Ryuuko's friendship with Senketsu all the more important and brings the whole element of clothing into a new light; rather than being tools manufactured by a fully developed mankind, we are the tools and they facilitated our development.

I thought the exposition was executed masterfully. We have the sharp contrast between Nudist Beach and REVOCS along with their affiliated persons, how Nudist Beach reveals their secrets in such a fantastically open fashion and REVOCS in their incredibly shady fashion, Ryuuko's comical interactions with her friends vs. Satsuki always being above or below someone, and the way Ryuuko is able to strip off without shame or hesitation while Satsuki shivers and draws herself inward.

Feb 2, 2014 10:18 PM

#248

JBird94

Offline

Sep 2013

1174

Well that was a short recap, nice new OP too

Bleach in a Nutshell
Random GIF
Mikasa is Badass

Feb 3, 2014 12:33 AM

#249

cyclone1993

Offline

Dec 2010

1032

The explanations in this episode were so crazy I couldn't help but smile at them. Pretty great episode. The bath scene was kind of odd...but it was an adult woman washing her teenaged daughter, so its going to be kind of odd...

The teacher still makes me laugh every time!

Feb 3, 2014 5:21 AM

#250

Yokamota

Offline

Nov 2012

2403

new OP and ED love it.. :3
and seriously the ost.. really love it <3
btw.. the fanservice is nice :p
and that truth.. I wonder if world really work like that XD LOL
yeah.. I really wonder what happen next.. with ryuko

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