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| Well, I have to say that the visuals were nice along with the music. The psyche, the soul, and the physical body makes up the three human traits. That's fucking deep. 7/10  |
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| Interesting and touching talk, a good part on Shiki and her personalities but yea other than talk and information nothing much. I do wonder what the yet to be aired sequel has to offer! But for this a mare 6/10 |
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| Shiki was so deep I couldn't even see her at the end. |
| This is the worst thing ever made. |
arkv said: This is the worst thing ever made. You do realize that this is just an epilogue and not a full-blown movie entry to the series right? Of course, because some relaxed metaphysical and philosophical exposition upon the whole story is totally the worst thing this series has done (disregarding the fact that this very element of introspection is practically half of what made the series so good and refreshing in the first place). |
Forgetfulness said: Meh, after reading through the forums it feels like Kara no Kyoukai was 2deep4me and I never really understood it. Does the novel explain it better? Cause I'm planning on reading that sometime Uh, if you thought that the movies were 2deep4you, you might not enjoy the novel since it heavily explores the metaphysical and philosophical parts a lot more than the movies do (I personally enjoy it, but it's definitely not something that everyone would enjoy). |
ronriMay 12, 2013 4:08 AM
Forgetfulness said: ronri said: Forgetfulness said: Meh, after reading through the forums it feels like Kara no Kyoukai was 2deep4me and I never really understood it. Does the novel explain it better? Cause I'm planning on reading that sometime Uh, if you thought that the movies were 2deep4you, you might not enjoy the novel since it heavily explores the metaphysical and philosophical parts a lot more than the movies do (I personally enjoy it, but it's definitely not something that everyone would enjoy). Ah, okay. Does it explain some stuff or do you have to infer it? Either way, I'll probably read it eventually(After I get through F/SN VN and F/Z LN lol) It explains stuff in great detail so I wouldn't necessarily say that you'd easily get lost or anything. Rather it does delve into actual religious and philosophical concepts and certain terminology that you may need to look up on Wiki if you're not well-acquainted with them. |
| Having actually read most of the posts in this thread, I have come to realise, I'm surrounded by fucking ediots. That is all. |
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SlothieSloth said: Having actually read most of the posts in this thread, I have come to realise, I'm surrounded by fucking ediots. That is all. Welcome to MAL, where 3 of the top 6 anime are Gintama... The other 3 being FMA, Steins;Gate and Clannad. -.- On a more serious note though, it all comes down to taste. I love the KnK series to death and re-watch it often. However, a friend of mine with similar tastes in anime just can't stand it. Our overall compatibility is very high, but when it comes to KnK, we just can't see eye-to-eye. It's definitely an acquired taste, and even then, only meant for certain people. That's fine though, because I'd rather have an anime that I feel is built for me (and others like me) than something mainstream and generic. |
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| Thank you so much, lasercannon, for your excellent explanation. After reading that, I was actually pretty pissed off (not because of what you said). I just recently (over the past week) watched all seven movies plus the epilogue. While I now understand more clearly what was said in the epilogue and how it relates to the rest of the movies, it still feels disconnected from them. I think that's because they didn't represent all of the metaphysical/philosophical stuff very well throughout the movies, like you said. It was just a line here and there, and while those lines did have importance in their respective parts of the story, most of them didn't give the impression of being indicative of something as deep and relevant to the whole story as what they actually apparently were (the ones that did were about Shiki's dual personality). In short, the reason I'm pissed is because I feel incredibly jipped. I mean, here they have some really intricate concepts that are important to the story, and would have added a very intriguing layer to the story as presented in the movies, yet they seem to do a shoddy job of integrating them into the movies. It makes me want to find out if the novels have been printed in English, so I can read those. Given all of this, I think a more satisfying ending to the movies would have been to just end it after the seventh one. Having all of this other stuff brought in after the fact in the epilogue, when it wasn't presented well in the previous movies to begin with just made the epilogue seem disconnected. In hindsight, I really wish they had made the movies longer so they could have better included these important concepts in a way that would make more sense and convey their relevance to the story. I dunno.... After watching the seventh movie, I was feeling really happy, enjoying seeing Shiki and Mikiya together and happy after all they went through. And then after the epilogue, I felt slightly confused at first, because some of the things that were said didn't feel like they fit or were necessary. And then I find out that the reason those things felt like they came out of nowhere was because they were represented poorly in the other movies and, thus, kinda did come out of nowhere. And I just feel really disappointed. But I really did enjoy the series. I guess it almost feels like a stab in the back because it all comes right at the end, on top of which I learn that I should really read the novels to get the most out of it anyways. It's incredibly disappointing, but I like it way too much to just throw up my hands and say "f*ck it". I suppose in the worst case, if it continues to bother me, the next time I watch it I can just watch the seven movies and ignore the epilogue, like I do with Darker Than Black, ignoring the OVAs and second season. But in this case it would feel like I'm missing out on something. Eh, I dunno. Man, this sucks. |
| @Sejin - The concept of the Mystic Eyes and its connection to the Origin; the exploration of physical bodies and vessels; the very nature of magic in this series; the whole notion of Taijitu in relation to reality; Lio's transformation being attributed to reincarnation; and the whole internal conflict of Shiki/Lio in terms of free will vs. destiny. With all those things considered, I personally thought that they hinted enough philosophical and metaphysical aspects. I felt like the movies did a good enough job integrating such elements so as to not make the Epilogue that jarring. Movie 5 was already heavily bordering on this level of exposition that I honestly felt like adding too much into all the movies would've hit the audience in the face and removed all forms of subtlety. The fact that the Epilogue had to relate such concepts with everyday notions (a computer, the ocean, etc.) just shows how much cushioning they did to make it appropriate enough without going overboard with the metaphysical nature of the series. I dunno about you, but I felt like the Epilogue rounded out the series in a more thoughtful, albeit less conventional way, something that I personally consider as a huge plus. |
ronriJun 16, 2013 5:41 AM
| ronri, I got some of that watching the series (how the Mystic Eyes connect to the Origin, how the taiji relates to Shiki's personality, at least (I think?), Lio's transformation, and free will vs. destiny). I completely missed the nature of magic one. Even now, thinking back, I can't recall where they talked about that. I do remember them talking about how the ultimate goal of a magus is to get to the akashic records. The one that I'm having the hardest time wrapping my mind around is the exploration of physical bodies and vessels, and how that relates to and explains Shiki's personalities. Was that the part where they talked about the body having its own personality, separate from the personality derived from the mind? It could be that, since that concept was so heavily focused on in the epilogue, and I didn't catch it at all before that, that it contributed to the epilogue feeling like it came out of nowhere for me. What I have been able to piece together about the physical bodies and vessels part and how it relates to Shiki's personalities (but, I have no idea if it's accurate or not; maybe you can help with that) is that the body's personality is pretty much what you have when you're very young, before you realize that you have a self that's distinct from everyone else. <i>Shiki</i> (that's supposed to be the italicized one; I don't know how to do that on here) is that distinct self, but because she originated in a body that's origin is emptiness, she turned inward and didn't want to interact with, or even perceive, the outside world (that part was stated pretty clearly in the epilogue). But, a physical body can't survive like that, so (either intentionally or not; I'm not sure about this) Shiki and SHIKI were created as other, opposite personalities inside her mind. It's pretty much like in taiji theory: you have the progression from wuji to taiji to yin and yang to taiji to wuji and back and forth like that over and over ad infinitum. The part that made that more confusing to me, however, was when they talked about her family's role in it, how they were able to manipulate that original body personality or something (I couldn't make sense of that). And then, I've read on Wikipedia that it was something to do with the dual personality of Shiki/SHIKI and her upbringing as a demon hunter (they don't even mention this in the movies; if they did, I completely missed it) that led to Shiki's withdrawal from people. But, I can't quite figure out how that fits in with what was said about <i>Shiki</i> and the body's personality. I'm not sure if I understand correctly: Did <i>Shiki<i/> come from the body's personality? Is she that personality? Or is she Shiki's initial self? Did both Shiki AND SHIKI come from <i>Shiki</i>? Did Shiki come from <i>Shiki</i>, and then SHIKI come from Shiki? I don't quite follow how that progressed, let alone why it progressed like that. The fifth movie really threw me for a loop. It seemed so back and forth throughout that I was kinda lost for most of it. It was only after the fact, when I read a plot summary of it on Wikipedia to try to make sense of it, and realized that it was supposed to be two arcs playing out side by side in time, followed by a final arc that concluded the movie, that it made much sense. So I probably missed a lot from that movie in particular, and I know that's one where, like you said, they talk rather heavily about a lot of the concepts in the series. With so much talked about and explained in the epilogue, it's a lot to process and connect with the other movies to make full sense of it all. It's funny, I don't feel so bent out of shape about the epilogue as I did when I first posted, which was around 5 or 6 in the morning. I guess that's what sleep can do for you. Thanks for stating clearly the concepts and ideas presented in the series. That alone helps a lot in focusing my thoughts and piecing things together. And, hopefully, maybe you'll be able to help me understand some of the things I'm having a harder time wrapping my mind around. |
SejinJun 16, 2013 1:14 PM
| @Sejin It was heavily inferred that the nature of magic in KNK (at least in the sense of how Araya, Touko and Cornelius delved into it), was more along the lines of tampering with the flow of reality. If I recall correctly, the most notable movies that slowly led up to the Epilogue were....Movie 1, Movie 2, Movie 4, Movie 5, and Movie 7. They all contributed various ideas that played on this idea of an individual's personality and how it all come into play with their body's (or rather their vessel's) natural impulses. Just so we're on the same boat here I'll lay out most of it so we can easily reference it (I'll put it in spoiler tags due to its length): Now that all of that has been accounted for, let's have a look at what you said: As for the rest: Sejin said: The fifth movie really threw me for a loop. It seemed so back and forth throughout that I was kinda lost for most of it. It was only after the fact, when I read a plot summary of it on Wikipedia to try to make sense of it, and realized that it was supposed to be two arcs playing out side by side in time, followed by a final arc that concluded the movie, that it made much sense. So I probably missed a lot from that movie in particular, and I know that's one where, like you said, they talk rather heavily about a lot of the concepts in the series. Yeah the confusing narrative was definitely intentional as it was meant to convey the same level of confusion and atmosphere as Tomoe's character (the main central focus that drove the initial plot of that movie) through a series of cyclical and paradox-like presentation. I absolutely loved it myself (not that it was easy to watch of course, but the experience was definitely worth it). Sejin said: With so much talked about and explained in the epilogue, it's a lot to process and connect with the other movies to make full sense of it all. It's funny, I don't feel so bent out of shape about the epilogue as I did when I first posted, which was around 5 or 6 in the morning. I guess that's what sleep can do for you. Haha it's okay, that's perfectly understandable. I myself watched the Epilogue when I was tired the first time VERY late at night (bad idea). I watched it the next morning when I was much more calmer and had a clear mind, and it definitely made more sense to me haha! Sejin said: Thanks for stating clearly the concepts and ideas presented in the series. That alone helps a lot in focusing my thoughts and piecing things together. And, hopefully, maybe you'll be able to help me understand some of the things I'm having a harder time wrapping my mind around. Absolutely no problem! I'm more than happy to clear up these things. ^_^ EDIT - Damn, I hope my post wasn't TOO long (if you want I can move this whole post through PM to avoid clogging up this page). Also forgive me if there were any typos or grammatical errors there. =_= |
ronriJun 20, 2013 2:19 AM
ronri said: EDIT - Damn, I hope my post wasn't TOO long (if you want I can move this whole post through PM to avoid clogging up this page). Also forgive me if there were any typos or grammatical errors there. =_= No, it wasn't too long. I was able to follow it just fine. Thank you so much for explaining everything so thoroughly! Although, it was around 2 this morning when I first read it, so I don't know how much of it made perfect sense to me. It's weird: I was tired when I read it, but I remember at least some of it starting to make more sense, but now I can't even remember what made more sense. >.< You can move the post through PM (I'm guessing that's the "Messages" section under the "Profile" heading at the top of the page?) if you want, either way is fine with me. I probably won't have much to say for a few days or so, though. My brain still feels fried, so unfortunately I don't think I'd have much luck at comprehending it if I tried rereading your post again today. I'm planning on trying again tomorrow after more sleep. I'd like to read your post through fully a couple more times, and then just spend some time thinking and trying to connect everything and make as much sense of it as I can from what you wrote. And then, if there's still something that doesn't make sense, or if I just want to discuss it more or anything, I can posit that. What I'd really like to do, in addition to taking the time outside of watching the series to understand it in my head, is to marathon it at least twice (I've watched it once in release order over five or so nights, one or two movies a night): the first time in chronological order and the second time again in release order. I feel like if I can understand it in my head WHILE watching it, that that's how I'll get the most out of it. And watching it all in one go probably makes it easier to understand than watching it piecemeal over a number of days. Kara no Kyoukai is the first series I've been so determined to comprehend fully. It's one of only two anime that have ever completely floored me upon watching it the first time, even without understanding it fully (the other one is Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo). On top of that, it's the only anime I've seen that literally has everything I like in anime and does it all well or better. |
| @ronri Okay, I'm beginning to make some headway in understanding this stuff. I've run into a few stumbling blocks, though, in the form of things that I think I understand, but am not sure if I actually do understand. I decided the best way to make sense of everything was to start from the ground up, working sequentially. I need to understand these things I have questions about before I can proceed to the next step, so to speak. I'm hoping you can help me clear them up. I'm going to put it all in spoiler tags to try to minimize clogging up the page. I have to admit, even though they're challenging to piece together, I really like the concepts that Kara no Kyoukai delves into, both on their own and as they relate to the story and characters and all the rest of it. I like how they're so intricately intertwined, yet they don't become convoluted. Thanks in advance for your guidance! ^_^ |
SejinJun 19, 2013 10:45 PM
| @Sejin Sorry for the VERY late reply, I was busy for the past few days and I wasn't able to reply to your previous comment. Still I appreciate that we're actually able to discuss about this in depth, it's definitely a rarity within these forums. ^_^ That said, I'll address your points. (spoiler-tagging to avoid clogging it up as well) You're welcome and thank you as well! I haven't had a good discussion like that in a while myself and I definitely appreciate all of your replies! ^_^ |
ronriJun 20, 2013 2:22 AM
| @ronri It's okay. Life happens. I really hadn't solidified my thoughts until yesterday anyways. Thanks so much for your post! It helped a lot! It's quite a relief to know that I do understand what I think I understand. Oh, and feel free to use that flowchart if you ever happen to need or want it. In light of what you said, I have some more thoughts about a person's origin and how it relates to the body and the body's personality, and how the mind's personality is related to all of that. Enter the spoiler tags! You're welcome! I'm really enjoying our discussion as well! ^_^ I like understanding and discussing concepts and ideas in general, and since these concepts are intriguing in their own right, not to mention being integral to Kara no Kyoukai, which is quickly becoming one of my favorite anime, I've really gotten into this. Thanks to you, too, for talking about this at length with me! ^_^ |
SejinJun 20, 2013 7:15 PM
Sejin said: Kara no Kyoukai is the first series I've been so determined to comprehend fully. It's one of only two anime that have ever completely floored me upon watching it the first time, even without understanding it fully (the other one is Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo). On top of that, it's the only anime I've seen that literally has everything I like in anime and does it all well or better. Welcome brother. I went through a similar stage upon my first viewing of KnK -- I was over-obsessed with it and wanted to know everything I could. Luckily for me, ronri was posting a lot of useful information at the time, much like he is now. He is definitely an expert in these matters. |
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| @Verdale I think it's a very good sign when an anime (or anything, really) can get people that into it, and that hungry to learn more about it, or to experience it more fully, or any of that kind of thing. Yeah, ronri has been incredibly helpful! He definitely has a very comprehensive and impressive understanding of Kara no Kyoukai. I believe he's also read the novels, which probably helps a lot. I think it can be easier to understand character interactions and motivations in written form because it's often written out, whereas in the medium of video, you have to rely more on expressions, especially if the characters' thoughts aren't expressed. And if you have a 15+ year-old TV that you sit several feet away from when watching, the subtler changes in a character's expressions can be difficult to make out. I plan to read the novels myself eventually. Unfortunately, from what I've read on Wikipedia and from looking on Amazon.com, they haven't been released in English. Do you know of any particularly good fan translations? I found a website that has translations, but I haven't read any of it yet, so I don't know how accurate they are. |
Sejin said: @ronri It's okay. Life happens. I really hadn't solidified my thoughts until yesterday anyways. Yup and it just so happens I was even more busy for the past few days, so I apologize for that. =_= Anyway I'll address your new points: (spoiler tagging) Sejin said: You're welcome! I'm really enjoying our discussion as well! ^_^ I like understanding and discussing concepts and ideas in general, and since these concepts are intriguing in their own right, not to mention being integral to Kara no Kyoukai, which is quickly becoming one of my favorite anime, I've really gotten into this. Thanks to you, too, for talking about this at length with me! ^_^ Much appreciated! Also I appreciate the kind words (you too Verdale). Honestly, in the case of KNK, I think when I first got into, I was just so surprised at how the series truly catered to a lot themes and ideas that I'm actually very fond of (especially in terms of philosophy, religion and supernatural concepts and tropes). Admittedly, what actually pushed me to look up all the various info and details on the series was mainly to do with my overall dissatisfaction in not knowing whether certain decisions made in the story were actually intentional or not. One such case that truly kept me on edge back then was if Lio's character construction and in my opinion, the genius behind it, was purely coincidental. In that regard, the more I read about the series in bits and pieces, the more I really got into it as a whole. I'll admit I've actually watched the films a number of times already (I'm even undergoing a modified subbing project for all the films as I'm personally a bit dissatisfied with some of the translations in the currently-available subs). Personally having looked into it quite a lot as well as interviews, arguably the films are actually the definitive interpretations of the story (heck even the author considers the films more canon than the original novels now). Even reading certain segments of the novels, you'll come understand why certain decisions were made for their respective film versions and, to my surprise, it made me appreciate some of the direction they took with the films even more than before. Personally while I definitely think that the novel serves as an informational "backbone" or a pseudo-database for the series, I find that the very essence of the stories and the intended message and atmosphere they were meant to evoke were actually captured by the films. As for film as a medium in relation to this series, I'll admit I've actually watched the films a number of times and I'm even undergoing a new subbing project for all films. One thing that I myself realized and came to love about the series is how they were put together in terms of cinematography, keeping in mind that they're meant to be films as opposed to simply being a TV series of sorts. Watching it without subs at times, you really come to appreciate the subtle shifts in the various character's expressions, sound effects and even the character placement/camera angles/what you see on the screen at the given point in time (essentially the very idea of Mise-en-scene to be precise). But yes again, thanks for the wonderful discussion! ^_^ |
ronriJun 26, 2013 12:54 AM
| @ronri Sorry for the late reply. I guess it's my turn to have been busy. =/ Being busy sucks. And thanks so much for helping me fully clarify all my questions about the body's personality/mind's personality stuff! I really appreciate it! ronri said: Much appreciated! Also I appreciate the kind words (you too Verdale). Honestly, in the case of KNK, I think when I first got into, I was just so surprised at how the series truly catered to a lot themes and ideas that I'm actually very fond of (especially in terms of philosophy, religion and supernatural concepts and tropes). Admittedly, what actually pushed me to look up all the various info and details on the series was mainly to do with my overall dissatisfaction in not knowing whether certain decisions made in the story were actually intentional or not. One such case that truly kept me on edge back then was if Lio's character construction and in my opinion, the genius behind it, was purely coincidental. In that regard, the more I read about the series in bits and pieces, the more I really got into it as a whole. I'll admit I've actually watched the films a number of times already (I'm even undergoing a modified subbing project for all the films as I'm personally a bit dissatisfied with some of the translations in the currently-available subs). You're very welcome! What conclusion did you come to regarding whether Lio's character construction was coincidental or not? I have a retail version of the series on DVD, so I think I had it easier with the subtitles. Although, I've taken a few Japanese classes, so I know that the Japanese language and culture are heavily context-based. As a result, when I watch something in Japanese that has English subtitles, I interpret the subtitles more generally, rather than literally. I try to get a feel for the meaning of the whole sentence or series of sentences, rather than the literal meaning of the words or sentences. One thing that I realized may be useful when watching Kara no Kyoukai is being able to distinguish between masculine and feminine ways of speaking, which I can't do. I read that they change the color of Shiki's kimono depending on which personality is speaking. But I read that after watching the movies, so I didn't think to look. And I haven't re-watched them yet. I've told a few friends and family members about Kara no Kyoukai. In trying to describe it to them (the visuals, audio, voice acting, genres, etc.), I realized that it's not that Kara no Kyoukai necessarily belongs in various different genres, but that it incorporates elements from those genres as it needs them for its story or characters, and that it's heavily story- and character-driven, rather than subscribing heavily to any specific genre, aside from maybe the murder-mystery genre. I really like that about it. You're welcome! And thank YOU for the wonderful discussion as well! ^_^ I enjoy hearing your thoughts about the cinematography. It's not the kind of thing I notice easily or quickly, so I like hearing that different perspective, especially since you've spent so much time exploring this series. |
SejinJun 27, 2013 7:44 PM
| Sorry for replying so late. I was quite busy and while I read your post a few days ago, I haven't had time to reply to it in proper. Spoiler-tagging once again! Sejin said: I've told a few friends and family members about Kara no Kyoukai. In trying to describe it to them (the visuals, audio, voice acting, genres, etc.), I realized that it's not that Kara no Kyoukai necessarily belongs in various different genres, but that it incorporates elements from those genres as it needs them for its story or characters, and that it's heavily story- and character-driven, rather than subscribing heavily to any specific genre, aside from maybe the murder-mystery genre. I really like that about it. You're welcome! And thank YOU for the wonderful discussion as well! ^_^ I enjoy hearing your thoughts about the cinematography. It's not the kind of thing I notice easily or quickly, so I like hearing that different perspective, especially since you've spent so much time exploring this series. Haha you're welcome too! I've thought about the same way in that it's genre isn't entirely fixed as it delves into so many mature themes mainly revolving around social (romance, societal norms/pressure, dangerous and questionable impulses) and existential (perception of one's own existence, place and role in the world) introspection. |
ronriJul 2, 2013 10:56 PM
ronri said: Sorry for replying so late. I was quite busy and while I read your post a few days ago, I haven't had time to reply to it in proper. It's okay, no worries. Cue the spoiler tags! ronri said: In that regard, you're actually lucky! While the only real issue with the retail subs is how it can sound too formal at times in terms of the dialogue (specifically within the earlier films), the fansubs greatly paled in comparison to the work that was done in the retail subs for the final film (Movie 7). It's why I think you may have enjoyed the 7th film more than a lot of the people on here by virtue of you viewing it with the retail subs. Still, I intend to rectify the mistakes of both works, leading me to a current subbing project to mix the two available subs (with added improvisation on my part to fill in the missing sections of both) in order to get the best result. I thought it was kinda weird in the second movie: Shiki was using the honorific "kun" when talking to Mikiya (Kokutou-kun), which I believe is supposed to signify endearment, yet the subtitles said "Mr. Kokutou". It was kinda funny too, though. I'd definitely like to see the movies with your subtitles once you're finished. |
SejinJul 3, 2013 9:12 PM
| Wow! Thanks for replying so quickly (spoiler-tagging again). =D Well I hope all of that helped in clearing things up. Honestly I appreciate having this discussion and I thank you for it. While most of the details are just in the back of my mind, having to actually talk to someone enables me to lay them out more clearly before my eyes, which truly an enlightening experience and one that I'd like to thank you for. I'd say you weren't really that far from the truth, as certain parts of your ideas just really needed a bit of confirmation on the details on my part. ^_^ Sejin said: I'd definitely like to see the movies with your subtitles once you're finished. No problem! I'm more than happy to send you a message once the project is actually finished. =) |
ronriJul 4, 2013 6:20 AM
| You're welcome! And just...wow. That was all incredibly helpful! Normally, I'd quote what I'm referring to, but in this case, since it's your entire post, that seemed like it would just be kinda cluttered. But, yeah, once again, that was tremendously helpful! I took some time to mull all of what you said over, and tried to digest it and integrate it with what I've learned thus far, and came up with an overall description/explanation of how I understand Shiki Ryougi (the first paragraph is stuff we've already talked about and you've already confirmed to be accurate, but I included it for the sake of completeness). Spoiler tagging because it's LONG. ronri said: Well I hope all of that helped in clearing things up. Honestly I appreciate having this discussion and I thank you for it. While most of the details are just in the back of my mind, having to actually talk to someone enables me to lay them out more clearly before my eyes, which truly an enlightening experience and one that I'd like to thank you for. I'd say you weren't really that far from the truth, as certain parts of your ideas just really needed a bit of confirmation on the details on my part. ^_^ You're very welcome! ^_^ I really appreciate that you've taken the time to so fully respond to my numerous questions and comments and help correct and clarify my understanding of all the stuff we've talked about. ronri said: No problem! I'm more than happy to send you a message once the project is actually finished. =) Awesome! I'm definitely looking forward to it! ^_^ |
SejinJul 4, 2013 2:24 PM
| I just wanna say....wow, you outlined it perfectly with that post. Even with the supposed lengthiness of your post, everything you said pretty much nailed the whole idea behind how...well... the very core ides in how Shiki's various personalities came into play in the actual story and its relating characters. Beyond me simply declaring that what you said was perfect, I'll even confirm every single part of it just for reassurance. (spoiler-tagging!) Sejin said: You're very welcome! ^_^ I really appreciate that you've taken the time to so fully respond to my numerous questions and comments and help correct and clarify my understanding of all the stuff we've talked about. What I really appreciate about our discussion is that at least now I have something to refer to (be it recollection or relating information) whenever I need to recall and talk about these things again, and the level of organization you brought onto this along with the confirmation of the details on my part really helped in laying it all down so coherently before my eyes unlike anything I've done on my own before. I thank you for the enlightening discussion, even with Kara no Kyoukai's critical acclaim, it's hard to find people who are actually interested in (or needless to say, even remotely capable of understanding) these more philosophical aspects of the series, and it's discussions like these that make me truly appreciate the work and the kind of discussion it brings. So again, thanks for that. ^_^ |
ronriJul 5, 2013 3:45 AM
| Thanks! When I spent time thinking about this stuff, I tried to get pretty specific, to make sure I understood it in my head. I also typed it out in a Microsoft Word document, being very methodical and going step-by-step from the ground up. That really helped me to make sense of it all. I can paste the whole thing in here if you think it would be useful. Spoiler-tagging to minimize clutter. ronri said: What I really appreciate about our discussion is that at least now I have something to refer to (be it recollection or relating information) whenever I need to recall and talk about these things again, and the level of organization you brought onto this along with the confirmation of the details on my part really helped in laying it all down so coherently before my eyes unlike anything I've done on my own before. I thank you for the enlightening discussion, even with Kara no Kyoukai's critical acclaim, it's hard to find people who are actually interested in (or needless to say, even remotely capable of understanding) these more philosophical aspects of the series, and it's discussions like these that make me truly appreciate the work and the kind of discussion it brings. So again, thanks for that. ^_^ You're very welcome! I tend to approach gaining knowledge and understanding like a pyramid: before anything else, you have to have a very solid foundation. If you have a weak foundation, anything you try to build on top of it will be shaky and prone to collapsing. But if you go step-by-step, layer-by-layer, you can develop a very thorough understanding of just about anything. I think that's why I'm so methodical. I do think that some things can help a person understand something more easily. I think prior knowledge is a huge help. For instance, I have an interest in internal martial arts, through which I've learned a little bit about Taiji theory. I've also taken many, many classes in psychology. Without that background (especially the basic knowledge of Taiji theory), I think I would have had a much more difficult time understanding a good deal of what we've discussed. Also immensely helpful is having someone to discuss with and bounce ideas off of and check your work, so to speak. So, thank you for that. ^_^ That tangent aside, I'm really glad that I've had the chance to have this discussion with you. It's been wonderfully enlightening and enjoyable. =) |
| Something was nagging me in the back of my head, so I went researched it again just to be sure and it seems I made a minor mistake. Aside from that, I'll also address your questions (spoiler-tagging!) Sejin said: I do think that some things can help a person understand something more easily. I think prior knowledge is a huge help. For instance, I have an interest in internal martial arts, through which I've learned a little bit about Taiji theory. I've also taken many, many classes in psychology. Without that background (especially the basic knowledge of Taiji theory), I think I would have had a much more difficult time understanding a good deal of what we've discussed. Also immensely helpful is having someone to discuss with and bounce ideas off of and check your work, so to speak. So, thank you for that. ^_^ Haha fair enough. On my part, I've studied a bit of basic psychology, religion (and some of the philosophical implications behind them), social/political science, film, as well as legal studies in that regard. Most of the aforementioned subjects I'm no expert at but am definitely interested enough to know a thing or two. Hence why I was pleasantly surprised to find KNK which was like finding a treasure trove that mixes most of said subjects that I liked. XD |
| Okay, thanks for clearing that up! ronri said: That said, I intend to mention a mistake that I made in the previous post. I have come to realize (and I have confirmed this through the novel), that the Ryougi family specifically tampers and nurtures their heir to be able to develop specifically TWO personalities. That said, by default in most cases, two is enough to drive anyone crazy apparently based on the way they are brought up to accept such a trait. But Shiki remains a unique case due to her having the origin of "Nothingness" (representing the Wuji). In turn, Shiki was able to cope with having two personalities (even if momentarily before she needed Mikiya's help) due to the very nature of her origin and her murderous impulse becoming a point of focus for both personalities. In that regard, anyone who also has the origin of nothingness can only truly maintain their sanity through the use of multiple personalities to cope with the pressure (two in this case, so as to create the necessary Wuji-Taiji relationship for the person to continually function). So in the end, the relationship remains mutual and almost symbiotic (just as we discussed), and whatever else issues Shiki had about her murderous impulse was cushioned through Mikiya's care. Thinking about that raised some questions in my mind about the specifics of the whole tampering/nurturing bit. Since a person naturally develops a single personality, does the Ryougi clan add a second, ready-made one? Or do they completely override the person's original personality with two ready-made ones? Or do they let the person's single personality develop, but manipulate it in such as way as to lead to it splitting into two personalities? I'm not talking specifically about Shiki's case, but about how it's done in general. I remember you saying that the specifics aren't touched that heavily upon, even in the novels, but trying to fit this new information in with what I already know raised those questions, which I'm hoping you can answer. Thanks! |
| Pardon the delay, was really busy but I can definitely confirm this. Sejin said: Thinking about that raised some questions in my mind about the specifics of the whole tampering/nurturing bit. Since a person naturally develops a single personality, does the Ryougi clan add a second, ready-made one? Or do they completely override the person's original personality with two ready-made ones? Or do they let the person's single personality develop, but manipulate it in such as way as to lead to it splitting into two personalities? I'm not talking specifically about Shiki's case, but about how it's done in general. I remember you saying that the specifics aren't touched that heavily upon, even in the novels, but trying to fit this new information in with what I already know raised those questions, which I'm hoping you can answer. The one highlighted in bold is the correct one. The very nature of a person's personality (or the two personalities in this regard) is not really pre-determined beyond the fact that they tend to view the second personality as being the opposite gender to their own (in this case, since Shiki is female, they designated her second personality as "masculine" by default). She does claim that the very nature of her personalities Shiki and SHIKI somehow, through unknown means and circumstances, managed to coexist instead of driving her insane like her ancestors. While she attributes it to the very nature of her personalities as the potential reason (as she claims that they "ignore" each other while retaining self-awareness and order), this is definitely the connection that we've been talking about in regards as to how she developed two specific personalities (closed off and impulsive) in light of her origin of nothingness, forming a Wuji-Taiji relationship with the "third" personality. I hope that answers your question! ^_^ |
| Thanks! That did help. Sorry if my previous post came off as abrupt. I was in a hurry while typing it. I'm confused about something. You confirmed that the Ryougi clan lets their heir's original personality develop, but nurtures it in such a way as to lead to their personality splitting. Doesn't that mean that the clan doesn't do anything with inserting a personality from the outside (what I thought you meant when you used the word "tampering" in regard to the Ryougi clan's customs)? If so, that contradicts what Shiki's body's personality said in the epilogue about the Ryougi clan trying to insert ready-made personalities into Shiki from the outside, resulting in her body gaining sentience. The two ideas seem mutually exclusive. The only work-around I could come up with was that the attempted insertion of various personalities into Shiki's body was done intentionally, with the purpose of making her body sentient. But that would imply that they knew that doing that to Shiki's body would make it live, which means that they wouldn't need to do it to every heir, just to any heir who was stillborn. But that contradicts that it's a custom that they do to all the heirs. And now I'm really confused.... o.o |
Sejin said: I'm confused about something. You confirmed that the Ryougi clan lets their heir's original personality develop, but nurtures it in such a way as to lead to their personality splitting. Doesn't that mean that the clan doesn't do anything with inserting a personality from the outside (what I thought you meant when you used the word "tampering" in regard to the Ryougi clan's customs)? If so, that contradicts what Shiki's body's personality said in the epilogue about the Ryougi clan trying to insert ready-made personalities into Shiki from the outside, resulting in her body gaining sentience. Actually this is the vague part. Due to Shiki herself (not the third personality, but how she and the Ryougi family probably understand it) being an unreliable narrator (since even Touko claims that they don't really understand everything that they're doing with their magic), I can only deduce that it's not so much that the personalities had pre-determined attributes, but rather they insert read-made personalities in the sense of creating base personalities through nurture and tampering with the body, allowing each respective personality to develop on their own. The fact that her parents and Shiki herself weren't entirely sure of how/why she stayed sane seems indicative of their obliviousness to how it all even works. I highly doubt that they could "form" complete personalities on their own, rather I can see them tampering with Shiki's body so as to provide a more general template to allow the mind to form the attitudes/traits of each personality on its own. I actually doubt that the Ryougi clan were keenly aware of Shiki's origin of nothingness and really wanted to exploit them, the fact that they can barely even understand their own methods/customs shows their level of ignorance despite their abilities. XD |
ronriJul 10, 2013 2:01 AM
| Thanks. That helped a lot! Spoiler-tagging, to keep length down. This is kinda unrelated, but I'm curious since you referenced the novel to make sure about the number of personalities that the Ryougi heirs develop. I would guess that you're fluent in Japanese since you're making your own subtitles for the movies. So, do you have the original Japanese novels, or do you have a translated version? |
| No problem! (spoiler-tagging as well) |
| Thanks for confirming all the stuff about the clan's customs for me! It really helps me understand it! ronri said: Haha, I honestly wouldn't say I'm fluent in Japanese, but I do have some basic understanding of certain phrases/words based on general experience, enough to notice certain inconsistencies/errors in some of the translations. That said, my referral to the novel was based on past readings of people's interpretations as well as the English translation that one keen fan had thankfully released for all to get an idea of the original novel (I believe you may have found the link already in one of your previous posts?). So, then, are these the same translations you've read? Sorry I don't have much to say this time. I'm in the process of typing out all this stuff we've been talking about over the past weeks, putting it together into a coherent and more-or-less comprehensive form based on my understanding of Kara no Kyoukai, although I'm sure I'll be making modifications as I keep at it, especially after I read the novels. Would you be willing to check my homework, so to speak, when I'm done with the initial draft? EDIT: Nevermind, I've got more to say. :P Although, would you still be willing to have a look at my initial draft once I'm done with it? Spoiler-tagging! |
SejinJul 11, 2013 7:39 PM
| I apologize for the VERY late reply, I've been marathoning a whole slew of anime and various video games. While I saw that you replied a few days back, with so many other stories I was focusing on from other anime and video games, I had to clear my mind and tune back to KNK before I could sit down and properly absorb your write-up. That said, I finally read it aaaand spoiler-tagging again! Also, I really enjoy our discussions and I didn't find this odd at all! Actually I find it a shame that not many people discuss (or even able to) about KNK in such depth like this (both in the philosophy and its relation and implications to the characters and their development), especially in the case of the Type-Moon fandom. If anything I appreciate the level of enthusiasm on your part. =D |
ronriJul 15, 2013 8:04 AM
ronri said: I apologize for the VERY late reply, I've been marathoning a whole slew of anime and various video games. While I saw that you replied a few days back, with so many other stories I was focusing on from other anime and video games, I had to clear my mind and tune back to KNK before I could sit down and properly absorb your write-up. That said, I finally read it aaaand spoiler-tagging again! It's all good. I know how that is. When I first started discussing Kara no Kyoukai with you, for those first several posts back and forth, because I was still trying to piece a lot of the foundational stuff together, I banned myself from watching anything (anime or otherwise) that I would have had to put much thought into because I didn't want to lose focus and have things from other anime or movies confusing or distracting me, or otherwise working their way into my head. Spoiler-tagging to keep length down (well, sorta--it doesn't actually reduce the length of the post). :P |
SejinJul 16, 2013 7:50 PM
| I think it's downright criminal of me not to have replied to you earlier but I've been really busy with my personal life (mostly due to the start of a new school term) so I haven't had time to properly reply. Spoiler-tagging again! |
ronriJul 24, 2013 10:17 PM
ronri said: I think it's downright criminal of me not to have replied to you earlier but I've been really busy with my personal life (mostly due to the start of a new school term) so I haven't had time to properly reply. Spoiler-tagging again! It's all good. You don't need to be so hard on yourself for it. =) I didn't read all of what was on the page you linked me to, but it sounds interesting. I'll read the rest of it later. I laughed at first when I saw that they were calling demonic possession Abnormal Antagonist Syndrome. To me it sounded like they were trying to make something that's not uncommon in literature and anime sound sophisticated. Then, after more reading, I began to realize that that's probably not quite what they were getting at. It was a pleasant realization because that's a more interesting idea to me than simply making demonic possession sound smart. Also, with the large number of characters listed, I have to wonder if the story feels cluttered. Thanks for all the info about all the Fate/ stuff! Honestly, I'm only marginally interested in all of it, so I don't really have much to say in response other than what I've already said. Like you, I'm currently more of just a Kara no Kyoukai fan myself. (I know I could more easily write KNK, but the full name just sounds so cool! :P) |
| That was soooo deep.... so **** deep as water in my sink. Sadly I disliked whole Knk series. |
 |
| Highly philosophical piece, supported with breathtaking scenery In contrast to the other 7 movies, this would be boring and non action packed It's good that it wasn't a long piece with only two people talking to each other the entire time |
| The dialogue from this epilogue was philosophical but it could've been summed up in 5-10 minutes. There were a few instances where Shiki summed up the entire epilogue in a TL;DR version and dragging this on for 30 minutes was unnecessary. Aside from that the voice acting was soothing and I still gave it an 8/10 because it really makes you think. Either you find it boring or philosophical. Depends on the viewer. |
| Rest in beats. - Nujabes  |
| The dialogue does mention alot, but as others said, it could be summed, and more "explaining" instead of "thats deep stuff". Also, that was no dialogue. A dialogue/conversation means, two or more people talk. One says something, the other one does answer/comment on that etc. But here, Mikyia had like what, five lines? Well, maybe five in that one long expllation, and another five in the rest of the time. It also had almost no music or animation, and 30 mins the same background, even when it's indeed pretty..so overall, more disappointing than helpful or anything. |
| I've never been so bored for a half an hour. Seriously, it was painful. A philosophical monologue about existentialism made so boring you could use it as insomnia solution. I usually like that stuff (I'm all over GitS) so I can't believe I almost fell asleep with this. It's not surprising though, Shiki just keeps on repeating the same things over and over when once would've taken 5-10 mins tops, and Kokutou just stands there like a tree. It wasn't just boring, but pretentious as hell (granted I feel that way for quite some scenes in the whole series, but they're outweighted by the rest of the stuff). Talk about disappointing. My reaction is mostly because I had my expectations in something else, I guess. I had many questions as to what Aozaki's actual goal to help Shiki was, why her eyes are important to the origin thing the mages were pursuing, what Kokutou's role was besides a love interest, if magic is a secret why is the sister and the school she goes to so nonchalantly accepting of it (seriously that damaged my suspension of disbelief like nothing else), why Shiki's family wanted to breed her as a superior human... etc etc etc. All things that could've been at least addressed but they chose a boring monologue as epilogue. For me this series peaked in the 5th movie, when everything and everyone finally seemed to have part of a bigger picture (except Kokutou lol). I wish the guy with the red hat and Araya had more character development though. NwAurion said: that was no dialogue. A dialogue/conversation means, two or more people talk. One says something, the other one does answer/comment on that etc. But here, Mikyia had like what, five lines? Thank god I'm not the only who thought that, Mikiya could as well been a cardboard cut out for how much presence he had in this "conversation." Krunchy said: That was soooo deep.... so **** deep as water in my sink. So not really deep at all. My thoughts exactly! |
YakuriNov 28, 2013 5:28 PM
Yakuri said: My reaction is mostly because I had my expectations in something else, I guess. I had many questions as to what Aozaki's actual goal to help Shiki was, why her eyes are important to the origin thing the mages were pursuing, what Kokutou's role was besides a love interest, if magic is a secret why is the sister and the school she goes to so nonchalantly accepting of it (seriously that damaged my suspension of disbelief like nothing else), why Shiki's family wanted to breed her as a superior human... etc etc etc. All things that could've been at least addressed but they chose a boring monologue as epilogue. I won't even lie, but it sounds more like you didn't even pay attention to the rest of the series considering the questions you've outlined here (majority of which was actually inferred or blatantly outlined throughout the series). I don't expect anyone to fully grasp the full implications of the Epilogue considering how it refers to a number of religious concepts that not many people know about (again, not as "pretentious" as you and so many claim) in order to be able to fully relate them to the character arcs within the story, but the fact that you missed out on such key parts within the series is somewhat indicative of how little you truly cared/paid attention. Also it's pretty unfair to judge a work based on your own personal expectations when you consider how such expectations are brought on by yourself (let's not forget the fact that this is simply epilogue and not a full-blown entry in the series). Again, "pretentious" is greatly misused by so many people that many tend forget that the word is defined as being "characterized by assumption of dignity or importance, especially when exaggerated or undeserved". I don't see how Kara no Kyoukai even comes across as that when it simply uses basic religious concepts to emphasize certain character arcs within the story, far from being "pretentious" (i.e. assuming undeserved/exaggerated dignity or importance) when it actually goes out of its way to outline the intended symbolism and purpose behind its use of such ideas. Let's begin in addressing these questions then: So again, the Epilogue didn't need to further elaborate on such "questions" considering how most of these were already answered within the series. The fact that the Epilogue even bothered to further flesh out some of those ideas, yet you still missed them, is something that's just incomprehensible at this point. |
ronriNov 28, 2013 10:10 PM
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