| Well I had a HUGE debate the other day with my friends and religion teacher about gay marriage and I was trying to justify it under philosophical means: "Well I think that anybody has the [moral] right to 'love' anybody they want. If you say that gay marriage is evil, then would you be saying love is evil then? How can you say love is evil when love is truly the opposite. Who are we humans to justify what is right or wrong in terms for believing that there is a divine entity that judges right from wrong? Shouldn't 'God' be the one to justify this, if he exists, and as the Church teaches we should judge ourselves first before judging others. So why do you immediately say that gay love is wrong when your not even so sure about it? Freakin' hypocrite." -Me. I didn't necessarily get in trouble, but my teacher she seemed to take a greater interest in what I have to say. So I wanted your guys' input on gay marriage in general. Mostly so I can stop my teacher right in her tracks for good :) |
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| I cannot justify gay marriage because I cannot justify marriage. I think it's a needless tradition. But of course I wouldn't deny that needless tradition to anyone. In my opinion belief and politics should be completely separated. And the only reason to be against gay marriage is because of some belief. In practical experience, from a rational and/or utilitarian point of view there is no reason to forbid it. If someone can explain me why he is against gay marriage without refering to abstract terms like "good" or "evil" I'll reconsider, but until than that is my answer. What you said above is a different aspect of the debate though. You try to justify it by using the same abstract terms. So if you suceed in convincing her it will be more effective on a personal level, but for the political debate about if it should be legal or not, it is irrelevant in my opinion. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| Evil? You've got to be kidding with me. "Good" and "evil" are worthless terms that are entirely subjective. Anyone arguing that gay marriage is evil is actually saying "I don't like it". And such retards needs to learn that the world does not revolve around them, whether they like something or not is irrelevant. There are no real arguments against Gay marriage. No matter how hard you look, the only Nay-sayers you'll find will be of the hypocritical moralfag kind. And anything a moralfag says is worthless, subjective bullshit. |
| I can understand why the Church would ban gay marriage, I don't agree with it, but it's well with in their rights of religious freedom to not participate in it. But the state has no right to reject gay marriage. |
| It doesn't think, it doesn't feel, it doesn't laugh or cry..... All it does from dusk till dawn is make the soldiers die. |
| What you said is a curiosity. I'm not judging what you said- don't get me wrong - but by your proposition I am going to add a little something for you to think about that my class discussed in terms of something similar to this idea: DigimonVentura said: Well I think that anybody has the [moral] right to 'love' anybody they want What would you have to say about pedophiles loving children, necrophiliacs loving dead people, or the act of beastiality? Is humanity allowed to judge them? Love can't be evil, right? You wouldn't mind middle-aged man following your little girl (just an example) home and telling you that she loved him and he loved her, and you better stay out of it? A bit off topic, but if you want to venture into the "love" arena, I must say that judgements by present law are being made against people like these- as homosexual love use to be. Maybe one day these people will be accepted members of society as well at this rate, no? At least my Professor thinks so. |
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| Anyone should be free to love anyone they want and I don't wish to belong to any religion which says for simply loving someone of the same gender you should go to hell for all eternity. However, I don't believe that anyone could love a child. I think there is no concept of love at all involved with paedophilia and it is merely for sexual pleasure. |
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Chidashi-sama said: But as you say, there's a difference when there's laws against it. So even if a pedophile claims to have only pure love for a kid, it's still illegal. As for whether or not it should be, dscussion about maturity of the kid and whether or not they're able to make their own choices goes here.What would you have to say about pedophiles loving children, necrophiliacs loving dead people, or the act of beastiality? Is humanity allowed to judge them? Love can't be evil, right? You wouldn't mind middle-aged man following your little girl (just an example) home and telling you that she loved him and he loved her, and you better stay out of it? In essence though, I don't see any reason to make something illegal if it doesn't hurt anybody. Bestiality should of course be legal on these grounds (as long as the animals aren't physically hurt of course), and seeing how corpses are worthless slabs of dead meat, that should be alright too, unless the deceased's family or whoever currently owns the corpse objects to it. SuicidalThoughts said: Luckily, there are no religions like that. Any Christian who claims so obviously has no idea about what their bible says on the matter. Really, the whole idea about eternal torture in hell is just some fanfic the Catholic church invented to scam money out of people.Anyone should be free to love anyone they want and I don't wish to belong to any religion which says for simply loving someone of the same gender you should go to hell for all eternity. |
Baman said: Chidashi-sama said: But as you say, there's a difference when there's laws against it. So even if a pedophile claims to have only pure love for a kid, it's still illegal. As for whether or not it should be, dscussion about maturity of the kid and whether or not they're able to make their own choices goes here.What would you have to say about pedophiles loving children, necrophiliacs loving dead people, or the act of beastiality? Is humanity allowed to judge them? Love can't be evil, right? You wouldn't mind middle-aged man following your little girl (just an example) home and telling you that she loved him and he loved her, and you better stay out of it? In essence though, I don't see any reason to make something illegal if it doesn't hurt anybody. Bestiality should of course be legal on these grounds (as long as the animals aren't physically hurt of course), and seeing how corpses are worthless slabs of dead meat, that should be alright too, unless the deceased's family or whoever currently owns the corpse objects to it. Baman's legal opinion is an important topic in this. But if Chidashi is not convinced, I wanna say some little thing about it. We are talking about love in a sexual way, I guess. I'ts ok to love someone, but is not ok when you force someone to do... something. Love (in this thread) is a concept very related to a relationship, not a single person. The love of a person, with no relation to anyone, is irrelevant in moral terms and also political and legal terms. So...talking about the gay issue, there is no comparable love in a Necrophiliac, because he loves an object, not a person. Neither bestiality, because there is no real will (in a human sense) in an animal. Is almost an object, in many ways. Neither pedophiles. A child doesnt have a developed self determination. Off course, bestiality and necrophilics dont hurt anyone, so I agree in those issues with Baman. But name them "love"... I dont think so. PD: sorry for my terrible english. |
| Gay love doesn't hurt anyone, there is no reason at all that it should be illegal. |
Chidashi-sama said: What would you have to say about pedophiles loving children, necrophiliacs loving dead people, or the act of beastiality? Is humanity allowed to judge them? Love can't be evil, right? You wouldn't mind middle-aged man following your little girl (just an example) home and telling you that she loved him and he loved her, and you better stay out of it? A bit off topic, but if you want to venture into the "love" arena, I must say that judgements by present law are being made against people like these- as homosexual love use to be. Maybe one day these people will be accepted members of society as well at this rate, no? At least my Professor thinks so. Love can't be evil if we're going by the basic definitions of love. Stupid things do supposedly because of love can be. A pedophile loves a kid? Yea, fine by me. He starts harassing the kid or worse? That's where it is not ok anymore. The same for necrophiliacs and beastiality and such. Also, I fail to see any good reason as to why gay marriage should not be allowed. The only real reasons people seem to give when asked why they don't approve are "I just think it's wrong" or "because [insert religious text] says so", which are both very flawed or baseless reasons. At the end of the day we're all people, gender should not ever be an issue in something like this. |
| Is gay love good or evil? To answer that question let me ask you: is love good or evil? Whatever your answer is, apply it to the first question too. |
| Love, or just plain ol sex and lust, between two or more consenting adults of any sexual persuasion is no one's damn business but their own. I wouldnt come into your bedroom and tell you you're doing it wrong, so stay the hell out of mine. |
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| Watch out for those who seem to hate gays the most, they tend to be in the closet. @SuicidalThoughts: Why can't one love a child? I'd rather choose that instead of somebody from the same sex. |
| Lots of feedback. ^^ @Zelda_Diethel - Let me get one thing straight before my post has a snowball effect: For me, it is not a matter of "being convinced." I was just seeking DigimonVentura's thoughts on the subject I mentioned out of curiosity of other such additional factors concerning love and the belief of evil therein. |
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| Love isn't evil. Lust is. And that is what you morons are mistaking love for. Know the difference before blabbing about it. |
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| Love between 2 people of the same gender is the same as love between a man and a woman, it is characterized by the same feelings. Denying someone those feelings is as evil as you can get. |
RageBorne said: Love isn't evil. Lust is. And that is what you morons are mistaking love for. Know the difference before blabbing about it. Lust is evil? Says who? The bible? Lust is just a evolutionary mechanism to ensure reproduction. |
mljatoDec 5, 2010 4:06 PM
| As long as one person genuinely loves another person, the sex doesn't matter. Whether it's guy-girl, girl-girl or guy-guy, it's fine. |
| I just had this debate little over a 4months ago in ethics class and both sides proved good points. Of course there is always the religious stand point and to me that's just wrong but ok its how some people feel. But the one other person who was against it stated something about the marriage benefits that gay couples would receive would better benefit them than if they were just a union or w/e they are allowed to do atm. There would have been a number of different tax cuts and things that they would be allowed to receive after they were a "married" couple. The "good or evil" thing is down right dumb because like you said if they see "love" between men/men or women/women as evil, than to me it would be calling love wrong period, regardless of sex. And that is the same pov that the person who took the political stand point had. Basically in the end it all boils down to money, they dont want gays to have the same rights and freedoms as others. Atm they are the people suffering, just like illegals. |
| In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with gay love or marriage. If someone told me they hated gay love or marriage, I wouldn't have a problem with it because its their opinion, and they are entitled to it. However, If someone tried to tell me that I should change my opinion on the subject to be the same as theirs, or if they bullied a friend for being gay, then I'd have a problem haha |
| METAL GEAR!? |
Baman said: Just like to point out that pedophilia is a medical diagnosis w/e and isn't illegal but that changes when it's child molestation.So even if a pedophile claims to have only pure love for a kid, it's still illegal. As for whether or not it should be, dscussion about maturity of the kid and whether or not they're able to make their own choices goes here. In essence though, I don't see any reason to make something illegal if it doesn't hurt anybody. Bestiality should of course be legal on these grounds (as long as the animals aren't physically hurt of course) I agree with the bestiality thing if the animal isn't forced into it. |
GogettersDec 5, 2010 6:07 PM
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| Evil can be good and good can be evil depending on the way you look at it. But personally I'm against gay marriage. Shouldn't there be a groom AND a bride? I remember that there was a news saying that a man did operation to become a "woman" after he divorced and his daughter SUPPORTED him <.< Seriously??? And there are some men who did operation to become "women" and got married to other men. What a messed-up world we live in. You don't see animals of the same gender being gay-ish. |
-Forgotten- said: Evil can be good and good can be evil depending on the way you look at it. But personally, I'm against gay marriage. Shouldn't there be a groom AND a bride? In news, there had been a man who did operation to become a "woman" after he divorced and his daughter SUPPORTED him <.< Seriously??? Some men who operated to become "women" even got married to other men after that. Why? Marriage is usually a ceremony to announce that the two people love each other and want to be bound forever, rarely works out like that but that's something else. Still, why does it need to be a man and a woman? Can't same sexes love each other? Of course they can. Some people feel like they have been born with the body of a woman and a mind of a man, and vice versa, supporting their life's choices is what family should be doing. |
-Forgotten- said: I guess that depends on how you look at "bride" and "groom"But personally I'm against gay marriage. Shouldn't there be a groom AND a bride? I remember that there was a news saying that a man did operation to become a "woman" after he divorced and his daughter SUPPORTED him <.< Seriously??? Good!Family should support each other... What a messed-up world we live in. You don't see animals of the same gender being gay-ish. Yes you do... it happens all the time. |
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-Forgotten- said: But personally I'm against gay marriage. Shouldn't there be a groom AND a bride? I don't see why it has to be that way. -Forgotten- said: What a messed-up world we live in. You don't see animals of the same gender being gay-ish. A list of animals displaying homosexual behavior: Mammals: * African Buffalo[21] * African Elephant[22] * Agile Wallaby[23] * Amazon River Dolphin(Boto)[19] * American Bison[21][24] * Antelope[25] * Asian Elephant[22] * Asiatic Lion[26] * Asiatic Mouflon[27] * Atlantic Spotted Dolphin[19] * Australian Sea Lion[28] * Barasingha[29] * Barbary Sheep[30] * Beluga[19] * Bharal[31] * Bighorn Sheep[30] * Black Bear[32] * Blackbuck[33] * Black-footed Rock Wallaby[23] * Black-tailed Deer[29] * Bonnet Macaque[14] * Bonobo[34][35][36] * Bottlenose Dolphin[19][37] * Bowhead Whale[19] * Brazilian Guinea Pig[38] * Bridled Dolphin[19] * Brown Bear[32] * Brown Capuchin[39] * Brown Long-eared Bat[40] * Brown Rat[41] * Buffalo[30] * Caribou[42] * Cat (domestic)[43] * Cattle (domestic)[44] * Cheetah[26] * Collared Peccary[45] * Commerson's Dolphin[19] * Common Brushtail Possum[46] * Common Chimpanzee[47] * Common Dolphin[19] * Common Marmoset[39] * Common Pipistrelle[48] * Common Raccoon[49] * Common Tree Shrew[50] * Cotton-top Tamarin[51] * Crab-eating Macaque[14] * Crested Black Macaque[14] * Dall's Sheep[30] * Daubenton's Bat[40] * Dog (domestic)[52] * Doria's Tree Kangaroo[23] * Dugong[53] * Dwarf Cavy[38] * Dwarf Mongoose[54] * Eastern Cottontail Rabbit[41] * Eastern Grey Kangaroo[23] * Elk[29] * Euro (a subspecies of wallaroo)[23] * European Bison[21] * Fallow Deer[29] * False Killer Whale[19] * Fat-tailed Dunnart[55] * Fin Whale[19] * Fox[56] * Gazelle[25] * Gelada Baboon[57] * Giraffe[25][4][58] * Goat (Domestic)[30] * Golden Monkey[59] * Gorilla[60] * Grant's Gazelle[25] * Grey-headed Flying Fox[40] * Grey Seal[28] * Grey squirrel[disambiguation needed][61] * Grey Whale[19][20] * Grey Wolf[62] * Grizzly Bear[32] * Guinea Pig (Domestic)[38] * Hamadryas Baboon[57] * Hamster (Domestic)[38] * Hanuman Langur[63] * Harbor Porpoise[64] * Harbor Seal[28] * Himalayan Tahr[65] * Hoary Marmot[66] * Horse (domestic)[67] * Human (see Human sexual behavior) * Indian Fruit Bat[40] * Indian Muntjac[68] * Indian Rhinoceros[69] * Japanese Macaque[14] * Javelina[70] * Kangaroo Rat[41] * Killer Whale[19] * Koala[71] * Kob[15][72] * Larga Seal[28] * Least Chipmunk[61] * Lechwe[72] * Lesser Bushbaby[73] * Lion[26][74][75][76][77][78] * Lion-tailed Macaque[14] * Lion Tamarin[39] * Little Brown Bat[40] * Livingstone's Fruit Bat[40] * Long-eared Hedgehog[79] * Long-footed Tree Shrew[50] * Macaque[80] * Markhor[81] * Marten[49] * Matschie's Tree Kangaroo[23] * Moco[82] * Mohol Galago[73] * Moor Macaque[14] * Moose[83] * Mountain Goat[30] * Mountain Tree Shrew[50] * Mountain Zebra[84] * Mouse (domestic)[85] * Moustached Tamarin[51] * Mule Deer[29] * Musk-ox[86] * Natterer's Bat[40] * New Zealand Sea Lion[28] * Nilgiri Langur[63] * Noctule[48] * North American Porcupine[87] * Northern Elephant Seal[28] * Northern Fur Seal[28] * Northern Quoll[55] * Olympic Marmot[88] * Orangutan[89] * Pacific Striped Dolphin[19] * Patas Monkey[90] * Pere David's Deer[29] * Pig (Domestic)[91] * Pig-tailed Macaque[14] * Plains Zebra[92] * Polar Bear[32] * Pretty-faced Wallaby[23] * Proboscis Monkey[59] * Pronghorn[93] * Przewalski's Horse[84] * Puku[94] * Quokka[95] * Rabbit[96] * Raccoon Dog[97] * Red Deer[29] * Red Fox[98] * Red Kangaroo[23] * Red-necked Wallaby[23] * Red Squirrel[61] * Reeves's Muntjac[68] * Reindeer[42] * Rhesus Macaque[14] * Right Whale[19] * Rock Cavy[38] * Rodrigues Fruit Bat[40] * Roe Deer[29] * Rufous Bettong[99] * Rufous-naped Tamarin[51] * Rufous Rat Kangaroo[23] * Saddle-back Tamarin[51] * Savanna Baboon[57] * Sea Otter[100] * Serotine Bat[40] * Sheep (Domestic)[30][101] * Siamang[102] * Sika Deer[29] * Slender Tree Shrew[50] * Sooty Mangabey[90] * Sperm Whale[19] * Spinifex Hopping Mouse[41] * Spinner Dolphin[19] * Spotted Hyena[16][18] * Spotted Seal[28] * Squirrel Monkey[103] * Striped Dolphin[19] * Stuart's Marsupial Mouse[104] * Stumptail Macaque[14] * Swamp Deer[29] * Swamp Wallaby[23] * Takhi[84] * Talapoin[90] * Tammar Wallaby[23] * Tasmanian Devil[104] * Tasmanian Rat Kangaroo[23] * Thinhorn Sheep[30] * Thomson's Gazelle[25] * Tiger[105] * Tonkean Macaque[14] * Tucuxi[106] * Urial[107] * Vampire Bat[40] * Verreaux's Sifaka[108] * Vervet[90] * Vicuna[109] * Walrus[110][111] * Wapiti[112] * Warthog[113] * Waterbuck[114] * Water Buffalo[30] * Weeper Capuchin[39] * Western Grey Kangaroo[23] * West Indian Manatee[115] * Whiptail Wallaby[23] * White-faced Capuchin[39] * White-fronted Capuchin[39] * White-handed Gibbon[116] * White-lipped Peccary[117] * White-tailed Deer[29] * Wild Cavy[38] * Wild Goat[30] * Wisent[21] * Yellow-footed Rock Wallaby[23] * Yellow-toothed Cavy[38] Birds * Acorn Woodpecker[18] * Adelie Penguin[19] * American Flamingo[20] * American Herring Gull[21] * Anna's Hummingbird[22] * Arton Nyugen * Australian Shelduck[23] * Aztec Parakeet[24] * Bengalese Finch (Domestic)[25] * Bank Swallow[26] * Barn Owl[27] * Bicolored Antbird[28] * Black-billed Magpie[29] * Black-crowned Night Heron[30] * Black-headed Gull[31] * Black-rumped Flameback[18] * Black Stilt[32] * Black Swan[16][17] * Black-winged Stilt[32] * Blue-backed Manakin[33] * Blue-bellied Roller[34] * Blue Tit[35] * Blue-winged Teal[36] * Brown-headed Cowbird[37] * Budgerigar (Domestic)[38] * Buff-breasted Sandpiper[39] * Calfbird[40] * California Gull[41] * Canada Goose[42] * Canary-winged Parakeet[24] * Caspian Tern[43] * Cattle Egret[44] * Chaffinch[45] * Chicken (Domestic)[46] * Chilean Flamingo[20] * Chiloe Wigeon[36] * Chinstrap penguin[47] * Cliff Swallow[26] * Common Gull[41] * Common Murre[48] * Common Shelduck[23] * Crane spp.[49] * Dusky Moorhen[49] * Eastern Bluebird[35] * Egyptian Goose[23] * Elegant Parrot[24] * Emu[50] * Eurasian Oystercatcher[51] * European Jay[29] * European Shag[52] * Galah[24] * Gentoo Penguin[19] * Golden Bishop Bird[53] * Golden Plover[51] * Gray-breasted Jay[29] * Gray-capped Social Weaver[54] * Gray Heron[44] * Great Cormorant[52] * Greater Bird of Paradise[55] * Greater Flamingo[20] * Greater Rhea[50] * Green Sandpiper[56] * Greenshank[57] * Greylag Goose[58] * Griffon Vulture[27] * Guianan Cock-of-the-Rock[14][15] * Guillemot[48] * Hammerhead (also known as Hammerkop)[59] * Herring Gull[21] * Hoary-headed Grebe[60] * Hooded Warbler[61] * House Sparrow[37] * Humboldt Penguin[19] * Ivory Gull[62] * Jackdaw[29] * Kestrel[27] * King Penguin[19] * Kittiwake[63] * Laughing Gull[62] * Laysan Albatross[48] * Lesser Flamingo[20] * Lesser Scaup Duck[23] * Little Blue Heron[44] * Little Egret[44] * Long-tailed Hermit Hummingbird[22] * Lory spp.[24] * Mallard[36] * Masked Lovebird[24] * Mealy Amazon Parrot[24] * Mew Gull[41] * Mexican Jay[64] * Musk Duck[23] * Mute Swan[65] * Ocellated Antbird[28] * Ocher-bellied Flycatcher[66] * Orange Bishop Bird[54] * Orange-fronted Parakeet[24] * Ornate Lorikeet[24] * Ostrich[50] * Peach-faced Lovebird[24] * Pied Flycatcher[67] * Pied Kingfisher[34] * Pigeon (Domestic)[68] * Powerful Owl[69] * Purple Swamphen[49] * Raggiana's Bird of Paradise[70] * Raven[29] * Razorbill[48] * Red-backed Shrike[35] * Red Bishop Bird[54] * Red-faced Lovebird[24] * Redshank[57] * Red-shouldered Widowbird[71] * Regent Bowerbird[72] * Ring-billed Gull[41] * Ring Dove[73] * Rock Dove[73] * Roseate Tern[43] * Rose-ringed Parakeet[24] * Ruff[39] * Ruffed Grouse[74] * Sage Grouse[74] * San Blas Jay[29] * Sand Martin[26] * Satin Bowerbird[75] * Scarlet Ibis[20] * Scottish Crossbill[45] * Senegal Parrot[24] * Sharp-tailed Sparrow[76] * Silver Gull[21] * Silvery Grebe[60] * Snow Goose[42] * Steller's Sea Eagle[77] * Superb Lyrebird[78] * Swallow-tailed Manakin[33] * Tasmanian Native Hen[49] * Tree Swallow[79] * Trumpeter Swan[80] * Turkey (Domestic)[81] * Victoria's Riflebird[70] * Wattled Starling[37] * Western Gull[1] * White-fronted Amazon Parrot[24] * White Stork[82] * Wood Duck[36] * Yellow-backed Lorikeet[24] * Yellow-rumped Cacique[64] * Zebra Finch (Domestic)[83] Reptiles * Anole sp.[34] * Bearded Dragon[35] * Broad-headed Skink[36] * Checkered Whiptail Lizard[35] * Chihuahuan Spotted Whiptail Lizard[35] * Common Ameiva[35] * Common Garter Snake[36] * Cuban Green Anole[34] * Desert Grassland Whiptail Lizard[35] * Desert Tortoise[37] * Fence Lizard[35] * Five-lined Skink[36] * Gopher (Pine) Snake[38] * Green Anole[34] * Inagua Curlytail Lizard[35] * Jamaican Giant Anole[34] * Laredo Striped Whiptail Lizard[35] * Largehead Anole[34] * Mourning Gecko[39] * Plateau Striped Whiptail Lizard[35] * Red Diamond Rattlesnake[36] * Red-tailed Skink[36] * Side-blotched Lizard[35] * Speckled Rattlesnake[36] * Water Moccasin[36] * Western rattlesnake (Crotalus viridis)[36] * Western Banded Gecko[39] * Whiptail Lizard spp.[35] * Wood Turtle[34] Amphibians * Appalachian Woodland Salamander[40] * Black-spotted Frog[41] * Mountain Dusky Salamander[40] * Tengger Desert Toad[34] |
YukiteruDec 5, 2010 7:08 PM
mbcota said: Whatever our differences or prejudices may be, i think we can all agree that wikipedia is quite handy This is a universal truth. |
Yukiteru said: Yikiteru, you just officially OWNED forgotten :) mbcota said: Whatever our differences or prejudices may be, i think we can all agree that wikipedia is quite handy This is a universal truth. mbcota said: Very fun points brought up in this debate. While i agree with what you say fully that there is no good reason to forbid homosexuals to marry, I have to say that arguing the point is often beating a dead horse. A person who is anti-gay or anti gay marriage is very rarely willing to listen to arguemtns why it is ok. Anyone arguing the point is simply deemed wrong for not having the proper values. With your average conservative mindset (I live in North Carolina. I see a lot of them) this is the most common argument. Any intelligent argument, no matter how well worded, will always be rebutted with the argument that it goes against god, or values, or what is morally wrong, take your pick. The more logical the argument, the more a person gets defensive and feels their intelligence (or in reality lack of) and values are being insulted. and they will buck back, regardless of logic. This is simply how people are. To admit the validity of the argument is to admit that they are wrong. That the way they view the world is wrong. That fear of being wrong will cause people to do almost anything to justify themselves, and convince themselves that they are completely right. I'm not saying your not right, I'm just saying your like a George Carlin stand-up routine. George Carlin was awesome, he was funny, and we had very good arguments. Oh yeah, and 99% of the time he was simply preaching to the choir. Anyone who fundamentally disagrees with homosexuality and gay marriage is probably not going to change their mind unless they have a personal experience with a gay person that actually changes their outlook. Anyway, I've taken up too much space already. I think i'll give it a rest for now. OMG yes you are correct all the way and I respect your perspective of human beings. My brother is stationed in South Carolina and he tells me its just as prejudice as you described. Its a shame that people are prejudice, really it is. People are scared of what they don't know in the end like you say and its true. Thats why the most effective way to argue is to find some facts to agree upon with the person your arguing with. Its also a shame of how closed-minded people are still. :( |
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| Not that I have anything against it, but I can't help but noticing how many gay members this forum has. At least way more than any other I've ever wrote to. |
Skullfoe said: Just because people are pro-gay doesn't necessarily mean that they themselves are gay. I, for example, am pro-gay because I have about a dozen gay friends who have been bullied on without meaning. So I came to hate prejudice and look forward to a day where reason and logic are natural to every human mind. Closed minds and patriotism are some of the reason why equality isn't the way it should be, and the reason why many countries are still rotten. Some people here may actually be gay. So please for the love of God do not bear ill-will against them, especially on the internet. I find the internet as a place of sanctuary because you can claim yourself anonymous from the world and be happy with people you can relate with. Thanks for understanding =)Not that I have anything against it, but I can't help but noticing how many gay members this forum has. At least way more than any other I've ever wrote to. |
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Chidashi-sama said: What you said is a curiosity. I'm not judging what you said- don't get me wrong - but by your proposition I am going to add a little something for you to think about that my class discussed in terms of something similar to this idea: DigimonVentura said: Well I think that anybody has the [moral] right to 'love' anybody they want What would you have to say about pedophiles loving children, necrophiliacs loving dead people, or the act of beastiality? Is humanity allowed to judge them? Love can't be evil, right? You wouldn't mind middle-aged man following your little girl (just an example) home and telling you that she loved him and he loved her, and you better stay out of it? A bit off topic, but if you want to venture into the "love" arena, I must say that judgements by present law are being made against people like these- as homosexual love use to be. Maybe one day these people will be accepted members of society as well at this rate, no? At least my Professor thinks so. Oh God I loled. That is such a terrible argument mostly used by Christians. I actually know a Christian who said "If they allow gay marriage then they will have to allow marriage to animals." RageBorne said: Love isn't evil. Lust is. And that is what you morons are mistaking love for. Know the difference before blabbing about it. There is nothing evil about lust. Skullfoe said: Not that I have anything against it, but I can't help but noticing how many gay members this forum has. At least way more than any other I've ever wrote to. Apparently defending gay marriage automatically makes you gay. I didn't know that. |
Drunk_SamuraiDec 6, 2010 8:20 AM
| I can only think it's one of those things humans do to make themselves feel superior to others. Quite pathetic, really. @OP, perhaps this article might change your teacher's views about "evil" and "good". |
| People should just mind their own business. Society can go fuck itself. Anarchy anyone? |
| Doubt Doubt. |
| Deleted off-topic and trolling posts |
 You've come a long way, baby. |
Moogocobo said: DigimonVentura said: Well I had a HUGE debate the other day with my friends and religion teacher about gay marriage and I was trying to justify it under philosophical means First of all, why are you even logically defending things in your religion class? You can't use logic against these people because they just resort to WELLLLLLLL THE BIBLE TOLD ME SO. I went to Catholic school for eight years and asked a question in religion class once in sixth grade. Never again. I ask these things because the teachers at my high school are somewhat reasonable. My Hebrew Scriptures teacher last year is probably the reason I'm agnostic along with my interest in philosophy. He gave me a complete turn around view of the bible by saying, " Don't take the bible literally, if you do your only blinding yourself like Jesus says 'How can you tell your brother there is a needle in his eye if you have a needle in your own eye?'." This quote made me realize that the Bible is only for theological purposes and nothing more. Its not proof of existence or a source of magic as people may view it. Gandhi even views God not as a deity, but as an idea. The idea being love in general. It suits the idea just fine, our actions of love towards one another is God in itself. Those ideas i just typed were all the facts I agreed upon from my teacher, as for the other teachers who are biased, I present them this view and even they are starting to accept it because they are reasonable people. My argument was not in vain, maybe back in the 8th grade it was, but now I'm in a better position to do so. |
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Moogocobo said: Well, in any proper school system, teachers should be impartial when it comes to value judgments like this.First of all, why are you even logically defending things in your religion class? That's why I always liked religion classes (In High School at least, before that it was just Christian propaganda bullshit.), because most of the time we just discussed stuff, which was pretty chill. There were also hardly any religious people there, which made it even more chill, and the ones that were were thankfully of the slightly intelligent sort. |
Soyalita said: Thank you.I can understand why people who are prejudiced have trouble changing their minds. Just the other week we had a debate in my english class if it was allright to smack a child as punishment if they don't behave. I was on the "team" that was for corporal punishment and it is not easy to try to change peoples' minds if it is something that they are raised to not think is right. Of course corporal punishment and gay marriage are two completely different things. Believing that somebody is "evil" and "disgusting" is just not right. As long as both are the age of consent. That is a much more important question in my opinion. When are you mature enough to understand what is going on? Because it certinatly has nothing to do with when your birthday is. Recently I heard about a case were a 16 year old girl was accoused of rape because she had sex with two 14 year old boys. At first we thought it just sounded so strange because they were really close in age but when you think about it wasn't really. (Sweden's age of consent is 15) It was still illegal. Back to the topic then. Luckily I live in country were most people aren't as prejudiced as in other countries but of course there are exceptions and gay marriage is already legal here (Sweden). It is just as people have said before in this thread. It is just a ceremony but for some people it actually means something and I believe that they do have the right to go thourgh with it if they want to. At the end of the day love is love and someday I hope people can respect that. For all of us. |
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Soyalita said: I can understand why people who are prejudiced have trouble changing their minds. Just the other week we had a debate in my english class if it was allright to smack a child as punishment if they don't behave. I was on the "team" that was for corporal punishment and it is not easy to try to change peoples' minds if it is something that they are raised to not think is right. Of course corporal punishment and gay marriage are two completely different things. Believing that somebody is "evil" and "disgusting" is just not right. As long as both are the age of consent. That is a much more important question in my opinion. When are you mature enough to understand what is going on? Because it certinatly has nothing to do with when your birthday is. Recently I heard about a case were a 16 year old girl was accoused of rape because she had sex with two 14 year old boys. At first we thought it just sounded so strange because they were really close in age but when you think about it wasn't really. (Sweden's age of consent is 15) It was still illegal. Back to the topic then. Luckily I live in country were most people aren't as prejudiced as in other countries but of course there are exceptions and gay marriage is already legal here (Sweden). It is just as people have said before in this thread. It is just a ceremony but for some people it actually means something and I believe that they do have the right to go thourgh with it if they want to. At the end of the day love is love and someday I hope people can respect that. For all of us. It doesn't matter if its illegal. The ages are close enough to not mean anything and she obviously didn't "rape" them. |
| Perhaps it may be interesting to see where our homophobia comes from to see how this problem manifested itself, and to see what social changes may have brought forth the Social Change that allowed homosexuals to make strides towards equality. First, we should look at what marriage was originally intended for. Structural-Functionalists would say that Marriage is a form of Social Control, as it regulates child bearing, it also serves the purposes of child-rearing and providing emotional support. A social conflict theorist would argue the main function of a family is to keep wealth in the hands of the elite. Both of these views suggest families, which are initiated through marriage, are centred around child rearing. In traditional and early modern civilizations, homosexual partners could not reproduce with each other, therefore, it was seen there was no reason for them to marry. Religion, which is a acts towards social control and social cohesion, was a major power structure in almost all societies up to late modern and post-modern, where rapid social change weakens traditional values. Recognizing that homosexual relations might inhibit the creation and the distribution of wealth, the traditional power structure, religion, denounced homosexuals, creating a stigma attached to the homosexual status. With such a heavy stigma attached, homosexuality became a "master status", and the rest, is history. Skip forward to the sexual revolution. rapid social change was quickly casting traditional views held about sex to the wayside, as sex became less about reproduction, and more about pleasure, love, and even casual. This opening up of sex allowed gays to begin to press for rights. A technological aspect of social change also destroyed the barrier for them to have children, the creation of sperm banks, test-tube babies. As homosexuals started to become accepted, surrogate mothers also became an option. Therefore, there is no reason for homophobia to continue to exist, and we are seeing societies, and even some religions to drop their opposition to homophobia. |
mbcota said: Very fun points brought up in this debate. While i agree with what you say fully that there is no good reason to forbid homosexuals to marry, I have to say that arguing the point is often beating a dead horse. A person who is anti-gay or anti gay marriage is very rarely willing to listen to arguments why it is ok. Anyone arguing the point is simply deemed wrong for not having the proper values. With your average conservative mindset (I live in North Carolina. I see a lot of them) this is the most common argument. Any intelligent argument, no matter how well worded, will always be rebutted with the argument that it goes against god, or values, or what is morally wrong, take your pick. The more logical the argument, the more a person gets defensive and feels their intelligence (or in reality lack of) and values are being insulted. and they will buck back, regardless of logic. This is simply how people are. To admit the validity of the argument is to admit that they are wrong. That the way they view the world is wrong. That fear of being wrong will cause people to do almost anything to justify themselves, and convince themselves that they are completely right. I'm not saying your not right, I'm just saying your like a George Carlin stand-up routine. George Carlin was awesome, he was funny, and we had very good arguments. Oh yeah, and 99% of the time he was simply preaching to the choir. Anyone who fundamentally disagrees with homosexuality and gay marriage is probably not going to change their mind unless they have a personal experience with a gay person that actually changes their outlook. Anyway, I've taken up too much space already. I think i'll give it a rest for now. You can also reverse this. Most people who think it's ok immediately dismiss anything the other side has to say. They're called ignorant and/or insulted while trying to give their side. They're also almost always ganged up on by the masses that think their opinion is right. I(and most people that feel the way I do) normally don't click or post in threads like these because I know how it's going to be in most Off Topic forums. The bible, God, and anyone who believes in it gets put down, and called this or that. Don't really care for reading all that nonsense. |
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| Well I wouldn't say it is good or evil because I don't believe in either of those, I'd say it's pretty neutral. People should be able to do it because everyone should be able to marry or love whoever they want. Plus the whole argument that gay marriage should be unallowed because the bible says so is completely ridiculous, while America was supposed to have seperation of the church and state hundreds of years ago, I guess they can still use religion when it's handy. |
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| Good or evil? How about neither; lets just say it is what it is. I'm not going to be saying gay love is good, but it's not bad either. It just is what it is. I don't discriminate. |
 "It's just...a bad dream! Wake up, wake up...!" |
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