| “He then went on to describe Shinkai's works as "stories about a boy and a girl who are always stretching out their hands towards each other," and said. "And yet the boy's hand never reaches the girl's crotch."” Epic. |
| To judge others by your own standard is the height of folly. |
| but..but... they're so romantic <3 |
IpreferEcchi said: Has there ever been even a shred of evidence that sexual content or violence is "bad" for minors, and also managed to qualify and quantify what "bad" is?Setsuei said: Sounds legit to me. In fact I suggest we start inserting sexual intimacy into every single anime from now on effective immediately, regardless of genre or the intended demographic. There should be no age restrictions on viewing sexual content. A big problem I have with laws and restrictions that minors not view sexual content is that no one can even hypothesize, let alone demonstrate, what exactly the negative effects thereof concretely would be. |
 It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
Peaceful_Critic said: From the work I've seen from Shinkai, I would state this as a non-issue. Your Name actually has the guy openly grouping the girl in her body every morning he's in it(which is disturbing), and when they aren't in each other's body miles away from each other, In Garden of Words, The Place Promised in Our Early Days has the girl comatose, and since the guy ain't a creep he leaves her body alone. Really, in all of these cases, sexual intimacy wouldn't even be possible. I dislike how Shinkai writes myself, but this is the last issue I would ever have with his work. But is that not the problem? Why do the stories only allow stupid jokes like body-switching and not real sexual attraction of wanting the other person? It is like love stories are written as friendship stories with sexuality added as a joke, something indecent on the side of true friendship. |
| I just remembered, in Kotonoha no Niwa, didn't our mc touched the teacher's goods? well, they hugged so he could have felt her there and I bet something happened in the living room. |
    |
| Like any criticism that refers not to what an author shows but to what they should show according to somebody else, it's as respectable as it is irrelevant. Not really sure what's the fuss about this and what should be done about Tomino having this opinion. Shinkai is not obliged to give a shit and change his style to fit somebody else's and Tomino is not obliged to stop expressing his thoughts. |
Setsuei said: Right? I've never understood why so many people view sexual content as worse than violence. Here here! This is a sentiment I have been expressing for some time and it's good to see a bit more of it from others recently, if only a little. One thing I will say about this story is that it's odd to direct criticism at particular creators. Shinkai's work is fantastic, and if he wants to keep the puritan approach then it's his decision. What should be criticized in the culture of the industry / medium as whole. You then have to address the attitudes towards sex at a far greater social scale which, while a greater challenge than just calling out one creator, I think is a better approach. I'd like to think things are moving in a positive direction, but I'm very pessimistc. I used to think it was just an issue of sex-negative "muh objectification" SJWs that were the problem, but I notice more and more that there is a giant, hidden swell of tradcon puritanism on the right. The sexual liberation leftists and the libertarian right wingers are still minorities, sadly. At least they are when it comes to what is visible in public discourse. Very sad to see all the sex-negative people coming out of the woodwork in threads like these. Kind of breaks my heart that people can have such dark angry attitudes towards something so beautiful. I have to wonder how these people see sex with their partners, if they even know what sex can achieve in terms of intimacy levels between two people. One has to wonder what has (or hasn't) happened in their lives to leave them so jaded. |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
Peaceful_Critic said: Safeanew said: No, it's not really a problem. Makota writes long-distance relationships or one-sided crushes, so the story can't have that kind of sexual intimacy in it and that's fine. maybe if the two characters had a traditional romance, the lack of intimacy wouldn't serve a purpose, but in his stories, it's part of the plot and characters. There's a whole scene of the guy traveling with his friends to personally meet her, But is that not the problem? Why do the stories only allow stupid jokes like body-switching and not real sexual attraction of wanting the other person? It is like love stories are written as friendship stories with sexuality added as a joke, something indecent on the side of true friendship. If anything that sexual intimacy would have to be forced in when it comes to Shinkai's works. His writing a different type of romance that can't have it is perfectly fine. I mean Your Name was probably the only one of his movies that I've seen even that has any silliness in it(tbh, that was a breath of fresh air). It's fine that we have a story that's just about a friendship where the two main leads develop only crushes and are cut off by furthering their relationship because of the distance. Long distance relationships aren't really discussed enough in anime. Yeah, it seems like Shinkai tells stories about loneliness and isolation, I have not seen any. That is why I think the criticism of forced introspection is more relevant to Shinkai's works. Lacking stories of sexuality is a more broad problem of love stories in general, where many mainstream love stories avoid the subject to not be controversial. There is ways to avoid having to listen to the main characters inner monologue, silence of inner monologue allows for manners and implicit communication. When hearing a characters thoughts, the narrative gets warped by them, making the main character interpret things for the audience similar to how canned laughter laughs for the audience, they get the effect of laughter even if the audience do not laugh. |
Peaceful_Critic said: Safeanew said: Yeah, it seems like Shinkai tells stories about loneliness and isolation, I have not seen any. That is why I think the criticism of forced introspection is more relevant to Shinkai's works. Lacking stories of sexuality is a more broad problem of love stories in general, where many mainstream love stories avoid the subject to not be controversial. But it isn't forced in that case, because his stories center around it. Why is the sexuality thing so important? Recent love stories tend to focus on psychology a lot, having a strong focus on the inner doubts of the protagonist, this come with a myth about intimacy, that one cannot say things without being too close, too intimate. So stories of isolation, loneliness and introvertedness feeds it's own problem. By having a lot being inner monologue, it removes the space for indirect communication, indirect communication can never be explicitly stated without removing it's intuitional logic. Sexuality is the core subject that is targeted by the myth of intimacy, that showing sexuality and sexual attraction always is too intimate and fetishized. My criticism is of the fake seperation/conflict between modern romance and pornographic works, both essentially censor sexuality. Love stories should try to desexualize sexuality, showing how saying things more directly when it comes to sexuality do not have to be too intimate or fetishized. One should still mind manners, but not everything have to be explained directly. |
| Your Name fucking sucked but would be slightly better if there was any intimacy between the characters I think. |
 |
Peaceful_Critic said: Safeanew said: I have this myth about intimacy that you talked about. I believe some things being said would be too intimate given my relationship with them.Recent love stories tend to focus on psychology a lot, having a strong focus on the inner doubts of the protagonist, this come with a myth about intimacy, that one cannot say things without being too close, too intimate. So stories of isolation, loneliness and introvertedness feeds it's own problem. By having a lot being inner monologue, it removes the space for indirect communication, indirect communication can never be explicitly stated without removing it's intuitional logic. Sexuality is the core subject that is targeted by the myth of intimacy, that showing sexuality and sexual attraction always is too intimate and fetishized. My criticism is of the fake seperation/conflict between modern romance and pornographic works, both essentially censor sexuality. Love stories should try to desexualize sexuality, showing how saying things more directly when it comes to sexuality do not have to be too intimate or fetishized. One should still mind manners, but not everything have to be explained directly. I don't think using inner monologues by itself is a bad thing. So if he wants to tell that story and that story needs it, then I fail to see how it's a problem. Can you be more specific when you say "always too fetishized" as part of the myth of intimacy? I don't know quite what you mean. I've seen tons of anime where sexuality and character attraction to each other is plainly shown. I don't think it is seen as too fetishized in anime. Anyway, I am also curious about what you mean when you say pornography censor sexuality. Fetish is a mechanism used to avoid anxiety, sexuality being violent and traumatic because it is a threat to the ego. So when I call modern love stories fetishized, I mean their strategies to avoid the anxiety of sexuality. Things like fan service, fourth wall jokes and peaceful friendship all work as censorship of the traumatic encounter with the other. This is even more clear in pornography that is formalized into a strict pattern and avoids telling a full narrative. What is missing is the moment of recognition, when people show their weakness, it can be violent, traumatic and chaotic. There is a trend in movies of letting sexual intimacy be behind the screen, that one should read into it that they really had sex, but that avoids portraying one of the core moments of their desire and experience. It is also a cowardly move pulled sometimes to avoid taking a stand for the controversial topics that is portrayed. So the myth of intimacy is about avoiding anxiety by thinking one cannot say anything that will cause anxiety. The truth is that it is only the things that cause anxiety that is really saying something, otherwise one is only talking to the reflection of one's ego. |
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