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| THIS IS A MANGA ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING BEYOND THIS CHAPTER. ---------------------------------------- MC is now hero material. Yay? |
| Everyone has their own way of justice I guess... |
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| Really hamfisted shift in Agni's character. Manga's rating for me is going down by the chapter... |
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catullus_d_rus said: and i am going up since it's already forshadowed and does logical... and i like it...Really hamfisted shift in Agni's character. Manga's rating for me is going down by the chapter... |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
DZ_VW said: catullus_d_rus said: Really hamfisted shift in Agni's character. Manga's rating for me is going down by the chapter... Agni's character didn't shift, he was always like that. He merely reverted back to his original state. Agni is extremely selfless ever since his childhood years, and had sacrificed himself countless times for others' sake. He broke his arm to save his sister, fed the entire village for god knows how long, saved a bunch of people from Behemdorg soldiers twice, and also saved San's life thrice. His character only shifted once he met Doma again, and now he's on the right track after coming to terms with himself. People show their true nature in the face of adversity, and most become complete monsters deprived of any semblance of humanity. But Agni's different, simply because he refused to let the world make a monster out of him, and that made him a stand out in a world dominated by complete monsters like Togata, the Behemdorg soldiers and the criminals that were forced to kill him. His line "I don't want to surrender myself to this world" made me shed a tear. I just think it could've been done more subtly. If we're to take this manga as influenced by Berserk (I don't think we can't, really) then we have similar main characters, and how did Guts lose his utter rage for Griffith? The answer is that he doesn't. Even when he seems more calm, that rage is always there, just as his earlier, more positive emotions are. We need to move from that seemingly interminable rage gradually. I don't think that at this point it would be something Agni would drop so suddenly, especially with Doma seemingly so close. |
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DZ_VW said: catullus_d_rus said: I just think it could've been done more subtly. If we're to take this manga as influenced by Berserk (I don't think we can't, really) then we have similar main characters, and how did Guts lose his utter rage for Griffith? The answer is that he doesn't. Even when he seems more calm, that rage is always there, just as his earlier, more positive emotions are. We need to move from that seemingly interminable rage gradually. I don't think that at this point it would be something Agni would drop so suddenly, especially with Doma seemingly so close. Guts' rage and hatred was purely driven by Griffith's ultimate betrayal during the Eclipse, where everyone that Guts cherished were massacred. Also, Guts was always afraid to acknowledge his own feelings, as it took him a few years to realize that being in the Band of the Hawk was all that he wanted to do. It was pretty sudden for Agni to drop his revenge, but still understandable. Agni's desire for revenge wasn't particularly strong to begin with, as Doma was a complete stranger to Agni. His rage and hatred was born out of necessity by his own admission; and after finally realizing this he was able to discard his vengeance. =================================================== Completely unrelated to the topic, I had lost all interest in Berserk now. Berserk has lost its "dark" feel long time ago, and the blood and gore that we witness after the end of the Golden Age Arc only serves to make it look edgy instead of having any real thematic significance. That bothers me a lot, but not as much as Guts' harem. Ugh. Miura-sensei probably got infected by moe-otaku culture after jacking off to Idolm@ster for a few years. True, he didn't have the greater drop -- from best friend to arch nemesis -- but his focus has nonetheless been entirely on Doma throughout the series (save for some instances like when he remembers his sister and, well, like this chapter). I don't disagree that this chapter could have been a good plot point. But I feel like this whole story is too rushed to get properly immersed into it. As for your unrelated comment on Berserk: Are ... are you calling the Eclipse void of thematic significance? After the Golden Age arc, we have the Conviction Arc -- arguably far darker than the Eclipse was. It serves -- in its Lost Children half -- to cement how absolutely unchained Guts was after the events of the Eclipse (its supposed to be "edgy" because Guts has lost control of himself), as well as -- in its Tower of Conviction half -- to show his gradual shift from Griffith to Casca. That whole arc is probably the most emotionally packed part of the manga. Then after we have the Hawk of the Millenium Empire arc, which greatly expanded on the Berserk universe as a whole. Fantasia may have gotten "lighter", but it then expanded heavily on the fantasy aspects of the world. It's absolutely fascinating. At what point have you left off? Because at the current chapter, we are just about to see the result of Casca's healing (even though hiatus D: |
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DZ_VW said: Haha, sorry for the extremely late reply, busy with RL stuff. No worries! DZ_VW said: I don't really know how to put it, but I feel as though it's no longer Berserk at that point. Everything feels so strangely out of place. This is where Berserk had lost its "dark" feeling. It doesn't have the same level of loneliness and despair as The Black Swordsman Arc does. Named characters also stopped dying past this point. I...what? Did we read the same manga? Lost Children wasn't dark? It lacks loneliness and despair? I consider it like Black Swordsman Arc 2.0: same themes, more extreme. Guts shows, beyond what he could in the BS Arc, how utterly depraved he has become in his quest for revenge. And now we have context for it. DZ_VW said: The Tower of Conviction could have been done a lot better, since the core of the arc is centered around Guts' motivation shift from killing Griffith to taking care of Casca. We don't really need the refugee camps, the pagans, Mozgus and the Egg Apostle to remind us that Berserkverse is a fucked up place; we just had the Eclipse for goodness sake! Wait, I thought that Berserk had lost its dark feeling? Wouldn't this be exactly what you want? Not only that, but the Tower of Conviction fleshes out the world of Berserk which before had mainly been only Midland and character-driven. It sets the stages also for Griffith's rebirth, and further fleshing out of the world when the Kushan are formally introduced (as we'd only been given small tastes of them in the Golden Age through). DZ_VW said: Rosine's arc was completely unnecessary I agree, but adding characterizations to Apostles makes it much more interesting when they are killed. It's not as fun if Guts is just slaying brainless monsters. DZ_VW said: Isidro, Farnesse, Serpico and Ivarela are all completely useless. All they do is follow Guts around, and serve only as spectators to watch how incredible Guts is at dealing with monstrous abominations. Sure, they have a fight or two here and there, but those fights only serve to give them the spotlight once in a while, just to remind the audience that they actually exists. He could have put Guts alone on his entire journey and the story wouldn't really change much. Isidro I can agree with, though I do think that he might have something happen to him soon which will make him more interesting. The other three might be useless in a combat sense (except for Serpico, I don't see how you can find him useless in that regard), but cmon, Farnese has probably the most interesting character arc in the entire series besides Guts. Farnese grew up and was given everything without it being earned -- her fortune, her position (as leader of the Holy Iron Chain Knights), etc. The reason she follows Guts is because his presence causes her entire falsified reality to crumble around her. Everything she held with such conviction was usurped. So she follows the man who holds an even stronger conviction in the face of a much harsher reality than she ever knew; Guts starts her path down discovering a purpose in life, just as Griffith did for Guts. Things get even more interesting as we realize 1. that she develops romantic feelings for Guts (made more complicated by her promise to Roderick) and 2. as Casca is on the verge of being healed, she is likely beginning to wonder what will happen to her necessary role (cue ominous shot of Guts' behelit). As for putting Guts alone on his journey, we already had that through the Black Swordsman. Guts getting a harem is part of his transition back into realizing how great it was to have comrades, to not, in fact, rely entirely on himself. Everything post-Conviction has been a weight steadily removed from his shoulders. Things are looking up ... but remember, that it was at the height of the Golden Age -- Griffith is rescued, Guts and Casca are together, the Band of the Hawk escapes all that the King of Midland threw at them -- that the Eclipse happened. There's something ominous on the horizon. Sea God's arc -- Main thing I disliked about it was the vaudevillian pirate villain that was there basically as an excuse for a pirate stereotype. I'm sure Miura had fun with it, but it did drag on the story. As for the "point" of the arc, it went much farther than the mermaid girl. The Sea God would not have been there had the Skull Knight/Griffith/Ganishka not merged the astral and physical world. With the creation of the World Tree, fantastical creatures were born -- or rather, the veil which hid them from most humans was lifted. Therefore there was a change in scene. The Sea God was showing that this is how the world is now; don't forget it went in tandem with the rise of Falconia. It was another fleshing out of the world of Berserk. Now, I'm defending all this, but that's because I think you're deriding Berserk for the wrong reasons -- don't get me wrong, Miura isn't a god, and does make mistakes. Here are my main issues: Chibi-fuckin-comedy. #makepuckgreatagain. Puck is 99% chestnut form now, and it kills me, because he had such a great role in the Black Swordsman: he kept Guts sane. Now he's just butt-buddies with Isidro and Magnifico and all those three do is shite referential/chibi humor. Berserk could have legitimately touching comedy, but instead Miura goes for cheap gags that are extremely out of place in the manga. Hiatuses. 'Nuff said. The change in art. Granted, I think it's fitting this new fantastical land that is Elfhelm, but it's starting to look more like Jojo than Berserk. The detail is still there and beautiful, but I'm still on the fence about the style. Rickert and Silat & co. I think those two teaming up was a bit hasty. Plus Erica running at Rakshas was dumb as hell, and out of place. I think their teaming up was necessary, and a good plot point, but poorly executed. However the behind-the-scenes of Falconia was great. Everything else I have a problem with isn't so much a problem as it is that it hasn't been fully revealed yet. Skull Knight, Void, the new Band of the Hawk Apostles, what will happen with the Beast of Darkness, the Moonlight Boy, etc... |
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DZ_VW said: If you look at the arc as a whole, the Black Swordsman arc flows a lot faster and smoothly, because it doesn't have nearly as much filler as the Lost Children arc. The fight against the beetle-men apostle-spawns was so annoyingly pointless as the pirates in Sea God's arc. Also, the Count's story is way more tragic than Rosine's. Dem Feels : Black Swordsman > Lost Children I disagree with your first half. To me, besides the Black Swordsman including some incredible foreshadowing and noting how brutal Guts was, it lacked, I felt, proper direction. I would say that Berserk doesn't really become great until the Golden Age, both in terms of art and story. Up until then, it was just above adequate for me. As for the Count's story vs Rosine, eh, I think it's a bit of a tie. They were fairly similar. I think Rosine wins out purely for the "innocence lost" factor. She was just a kid, and she sacrificed her parents... shit's fucked, yo. And then, just like the Count, she tries to get her best friend to accept who she is. It was far more brutal also in the fights and art and the elf-children. Though the Snake Baron was also quite dark. As for the beetle-false-Apostles that Guts fights, I wouldn't per se call them pointless. Does every single moment in Berserk need to have the utmost import? No, if you had that then it'd be almost boring because there seems to be no break. No fall to counter a rise. Plus it was interesting to see Guts take on a bit more of an "honorable" approach in fighting the Knight-Apostle spawn. DZ_VW said: Useless as in, does the character has any thematic role/significance to the story? Serpico had little to none. Well, at least he's not as annoying as Puck or Isidro. Puck's role ended a long time ago, but Miura didn't kill him off. Serpico acts as a foil of sorts to Guts. He's far, far weaker, but with his nonpareil wit and intellect he is nearly Guts combatant equal. Not only that, but he's sort of the "true" guardian of Farnese, even though she attributes everything good to Guts. Interesting dynamic there. DZ_VW said: Farnesse is the only one besides Guts who has an interesting character arc, but unfortunately she is still bland and boring, and she suffers from a mild amount of character derailment : she was a sadistic pyromaniac all her life. But after meeting Guts and joining his party, that part of her character instantaneously disappeared. WTF is this, Naruto? How is she bland and boring? She's clearly having quite the inner-conflict when it comes to healing Casca and her unrequited feelings toward Guts. Not to mention as I said her trying to find her use in the group, where before she was useless. As for her sadism and pyromania disappearing, it wasn't really instantaneous. For one, she has it tested by Mozgus -- Mozgus essentially being her ultimate extreme, what she could become given entire submission to her faith. And Mozgus disturbed her, even if she never said it. She was clearly uncomfortable around him, or at least on edge, even when he was cheery and loving. I think it was through Mozgus that she saw parts of herself and realized that she didn't like it. And then Guts took that part and slayed it, setting it afire and flinging it over the walls of the Tower. She could very well still have those tendencies, but if she were to act them out... well, the strongest man in the Berserk universe is there to absolutely curb-stomp her if need be. Plus we've seen in her quest in Vritranis that she is oddly shy around positions of authority (Mozgus and Guts included). She acted out those pyromaniacal and sadistic tendencies either when alone or when in charge. She is now neither of those things in the new group. But, as I said, she could very well still have those tendencies. And Guts still has a Behelit... DZ_VW said: The thing is, chapter 305 already showcased this point masterfully. Why would Miura create an entire arc just to show us "this is how the world is now" again? For the audience who weren't paying attention? The answer is mermaid girl. Because it only showed the world in quick slideshow-style. There was no interaction with Guts' group and this new world. Just a reaction to the realization that something has changed, though they know not for sure what. As for mermaid girl, I don't really like her now, But who knows where Miura will take her character. She hasn't been around for long. I'd see where it goes with her. DZ_VW said: The art is getting better and worse. The environment and its details looks amazing, but the people don't. All women look the same, and the art style is approaching conventional moe style rather than Jojo-esque. I always thought that it can't get any worse than Sea God arc, but now it turns out that the Flowerstorm King is a woman. F*ck you Miura. Years of playing Idolm@ster had corrupted your mind with moe otaku bullshit. I wouldn't say that all women look the same, I'd say that all characters in general (save the ones with uber-specific features) are becoming similar. Even Guts is getting bigger eyes and fuller lips and a softer jawline. Yep, not sure I can say I like that, but it's still got Miura's unbeatable level of detail. Eh? What's wrong with the Flowerstorm King being a woman? She looks pretty badass. |
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DZ_VW said: Yes, every moment in a story has to be of utmost importance. No exceptions. The purpose of every scene is to give the audience additional information to progress the plot. That's the basics of story-writing. I disagree for a story that is gaining this scope. This was a microcosmic world-build -- the bandits were introduced along with Jill to start the Lost Children. They then came back in their bug forms, and they served a technical purpose for Rosine. The knights are then there to show that the bandits weren't the only people turned into bugs to protect Rosine's forest. It mayn't have been necessary for the immediate plot, but on the whole it added to the world of Berserk. Which I think is good for a series of this length, and a series which is gaining this breadth. It may have been a notion already introduced in the first Black Swordsman arc, with Zondark, but I think it was a good refresher (and another way to tie in the similarities between arcs, which thus make Guts look even crazier because it's two similar arcs, but he acts much more villainously in Lost Children). DZ_VW said: First of all, the beetle-men fight scene is an extreme bore. Second, it's not a break or a fall. It's a fight scene for god's sake, and fight scenes are always rising action. This is why the beetle-men fight feels cumbersome, since the arc is in constant rising action with no breaks in sight. There's a better way to handle this, and that is to just show Guts wander through the forest finding Jill instead of a obligatory shonen fight scene. This gives us and Guts a time to rest. First response: I simply disagree with that lol. But to each their own in that aspect, I spose. Second ... that was kinda the point of Guts' being up until he meets the Neo Band of the Falcon (Schiercke, Farnese, etc). He doesn't get any breaks. The arc even starts with him getting interrupted from sleep by the bandits and by the spirits chasing him. No breaks. No time to rest. That's not even what he wants, anyways -- at that point, he was content to burn his body to nothing if it meant killing as many Apostles/God Hand as he could. I think Guts just "walking through the forest" would have been even more boring than what was a fairly simple fight. Not to mention all that fighting is what leads him to being captured by Farnese and starting the next arc. Too tired to escape them. DZ_VW said: Serpico shows up to serve as a foil to Guts only once or twice. After that, Miura doesn't seem to be interested in pursuing that path anymore, so Serpico returns to being a background decoration. Besides, the dynamic isn't interesting at all, seeing how passive Serpico is. Hell, everyone's passive around Guts. I'd agree that that is what has happened very recently, but only because I think a big change in the group dynamic is headed our way with Casca getting healed. As for everyone being passive around Guts, I'd say its the other way around. And, besides the shit chibi comedy, it feels fairly natural. DZ_VW said: To me, she's bland and boring because her inner conflicts are rather pedestrian. An unrequited love triangle and a search for self-worth? This sounds like a high-school romcom anime. If only Miura added his own twist to it, but his writing skills degraded considerably after the Golden Age Arc, so that's why... Her change seemed instantaneous because she's now a completely different person after the Tower of Conviction arc. Changes happens slowly and gradually, and she should have had several impulses to relapse into her old habits at least, but no. She's squeaky clean now. Guts is a soul-purifying messiah. Makes me sick how much harem-ish Berserk has become. I mean if you wanna boil it down to such simplicity then you can do that with Guts too. "Out for revenge against the man who took everything from him." I think you're purposefully skirting the depth of her character by doing that. Miura's already "put his own twist" on her by having her in the story the way she is. Just as with Guts: the revenge trope has been done over and over. But Guts still feels different. As for why Farnese is different to degrees from other unrequited love and searching for inner worth stories, I'd say you just need to revisit whichever chapters it was where we got her entire backstory. As for her change, again. It's because she's in Guts' company. We've seen inklings of her old self in her one-on-ones with Casca. But she can't really exert her control-freak personality when she's essentially in the charge of the man who is probably the strongest human in the Berserk universe. DZ_VW said: Guts and company's interaction with the New World is only limited to the Sea God and the mermaids. They did not see how much the world had changed at a grander scale and how it affects everyone's lives, and this little interaction they had is no different than all their previous interactions with otherworldly beings. They still couldn't experience the large scale ramifications of the Convergence first hand, and so the Sea God arc is entirely pointless. I was disappointed when the mermaids aren't evil. This is Berserk we're talking about. Mermaids in myths are oftentimes man-eaters. Miura didn't even have to add another underage harem member, but you can see how far he's gone to the deep end of otaku culture. In other words, entirely new beings which were either in hiding, dormant, or otherwise invisible to human beings at the time? Guts hadn't fought anything close to the Sea God before. Note whatever Apostle you will, the only thing which stood stronger in terms of pure power was probably the God Hand themselves (or perhaps other creatures that are of its size; maybe that dragon, eh). Yeah, I'd say it was stronger than Apostles -- just slower and not as smart. Why would they need to see how it has affected others' lives? Guts and his crew has been detached from normal civilians from the start. Why would they care how it affects the world? The Sea God was there to show how it affects them. And it was massive. They did see changes: the Sea God took over an entire island, and the branches of the World Tree are now always visible in the sky. Not to mention the Moonlight Boy. As for the mermaids, that's an interesting point. But given that we already had baddies in the Sea God/pirates, I don't think that arc needed any extra beings to fight. Plus none of the group really has the ability to fight in the water very effectively; it'll be interesting to see more of Isma's abilities as a support form the sea. DZ_VW said: Compared to male characters, female characters have little to no variations. Fair point. DZ_VW said: Yup, there's nothing wrong about the Flowerstorm King being a woman. None at all. Well, other than the fact that she's now a potential harem member, since all female characters who had met with Guts have the hots for him. Let's see how many we've got so far : 1. Casca 2. Slan 3. Collette 4. Jill 5. Farnese 6. Schierke 4 of them are major characters, and 3 out of those 4 are with him as of now. This is becoming some sort of disgusting wish-fulfillment harem fantasy. Apparently in Japanese the title is gender-neutral. So "king" was from the start not technically incorrect, but also not spot-on. "Prior to her debut, Hanafubuku is referred to as a male (with the title of king) in the Dark Horse translation of the manga. It should be noted that her title in the original Japanese text is the Kanji 王, which can denote a king. However, the term itself is gender-neutral and not exclusive to male characters, leaving her gender ambiguous until she was introduced." (from the wiki) 1. Not really a harem member. Ultimate romance. Crux of the story. 2. I like this relationship. I also think Slan probably acts this way to most hunky swordsmen anyways, Guts is just the hunkiest/strongest/most mentally damaged of them. Slan's all over that. 3. Dead n buried. 4. Not a harem member. Doubt she'll return to the series. More of a father-daughter-ish relationship with Guts -- particularly because part of her character is trouble with parents. 5. Not sure how you'd call this harem. Miura handles their relationship with far, far more subtlety than any harem-mangaka ever could. They hardly ever talk, but have quite the depth between them. 6. Gotta have the loli. Jk. I think that we need to have more of the history between Skull Knight and Flora to see where that will go. I think you misunderstand what it means to have a harem. Sure Guts has a lot of girls crowd around him ... but he's also had a lot of guys do the same. Close proximity in battle seems to bring on a strange sexual charge, regardless of gender. Not to mention, harem stories focus on the romance. This is not what Berserk does -- at least, beyond Guts and Casca. Guts does not acknowledge whatsoever the feelings that Farnese/Schierke might have for him. He's entirely focused on Casca at the moment; and still has that obsession with Griffith burning in him. DZ_VW said: The point is, I lost interest in Berserk because it's now treading shallow waters instead of the deep abyss we all had during the Black Swordsman and Golden Age arc. Berserk had been converted from Dark Fantasy to High Fantasy, baptized in the waters of the harem genre. I don't even care if it has another 8-years long hiatus. I ain't got nothing against high fantasy, myself. And I simply disagree with the harem stuff. Otherwise, I'm sorry to hear that you don't enjoy it as you once did. I don't mean that in a condescending way lol. |
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| So much happened in this thread. San will be saved now. |
| Good thread lol. I like how in this chapter, Agni going to hero mode is kindly strange which ties well with how Togata said don't change character. Somewhat strange change that doesn't make sense which feels like it almost breaks the 4th wall. |
| them double spreads were fine enough I guess |
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| Now that's your generic shounen main character And I like it |
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| Great chapter. Agni managed to find his own way, or rather return to how he was like before he became the Fire Man. |
| So Agni's real self has finally come back and his fake persona of being someone who wants revenge and doesn't care about anything is gone, now he is saving everyone! Hopefully he saves Sun soon too. I wonder how Togata will retaliate to Agni disobeying them |
| Another plot twist! : 0 |
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