| Please excuse me but I'm rather ignorant on the subject of this man but I hear about him a lot but I never quite understood if he was admired or seen as evil. I know he's a popular figure when it comes to merchandise and t shirts but I hear he was a ruthless killer. I'm confuzzled. |
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| Depends on which side you take :P Me? I see him as a kind man. He was a true idealist as well as a military tactician, one thing for sure. The type of guy that would give away political power in favor of helping rebellions that fight for the same ideal as he has. That made him a dangerous enemy to the other side, because you can't tie him down. He's not a bad guy, if the testimonies of the people that have interacted with him are to be trusted. He made elementary schools & taught there, he also made clinics for sick people with no money (and he was a medical student, so he had the knowledge as a doctor,) and also he was one few guerrilla leader who actually forbid things such as robbery, rape, etc. (with various degree of success --") But in the end, he's a military tactician, a military man. His approach was what a military tactician would do, whether in wars or politics. aka if he have to kill someone, he would kill him/her without a single doubt. Same way with his own life: if it's time to die, he'd die, in a way a brave soldier would. (That's how he died.) |
Revvie-chanMar 28, 2016 1:40 PM
| He's transcended that dichotomy and became a meme. |
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Revvie-chan said: Depends on which side you take :P Me? I see him as a kind man. He was a true idealist as well as a military tactician, one thing for sure. The type of guy that would give away political power in favor of helping rebellions that fight for the same ideal as he has. That made him a dangerous enemy to the other side, because you can't tie him down. He's not a bad guy, too, if the testimonies of the people that have interacted with him are to be trusted. He made elementary schools & taught there, he also made clinics for sick people with no money (and he was a medical student, so he has the knowledge as a doctor,) and also he was one few guerrilla leader who actually forbid things such as robbery, rape, etc. (with various degree of success --") But in the end, he's a military tactician, a military man. His approach is what a military tactician would do, whether in wars or politics. aka if he have to kill someone, he would kill him/her without a single doubt. Same way with his own life: if it's time to die, he'd die, in a way a brave soldier would. (That's how he died.) Interesting stuff to hear. Sounds like an interesting human being at the very least. I guess I should do my own research though. |
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Polychrome said: He's transcended that dichotomy and became a meme. which is Nike(?)' sin. Poor guy, really. If there is an afterlife, I wonder what would he think about it. |
Waifu_Strangler said: No way. Whoever gave you that idea. That's silly talk.Revvie-chan said: Depends on which side you take :P Me? I see him as a kind man. He was a true idealist as well as a military tactician, one thing for sure. The type of guy that would give away political power in favor of helping rebellions that fight for the same ideal as he has. That made him a dangerous enemy to the other side, because you can't tie him down. He's not a bad guy, too, if the testimonies of the people that have interacted with him are to be trusted. He made elementary schools & taught there, he also made clinics for sick people with no money (and he was a medical student, so he has the knowledge as a doctor,) and also he was one few guerrilla leader who actually forbid things such as robbery, rape, etc. (with various degree of success --") But in the end, he's a military tactician, a military man. His approach is what a military tactician would do, whether in wars or politics. aka if he have to kill someone, he would kill him/her without a single doubt. Same way with his own life: if it's time to die, he'd die, in a way a brave soldier would. (That's how he died.) Interesting stuff to hear. Sounds like an interesting human being at the very least. I guess I should do my own research though. |
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Revvie-chan said: Most likely be opposed since the image has as much in common with his ideals and actions to those ends as an Adidas trademark.Polychrome said: He's transcended that dichotomy and became a meme. which is Nike(?)' sin. Poor guy, really. If there is an afterlife, I wonder what would he think about it. |
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Polychrome said: Waifu_Strangler said: No way. Whoever gave you that idea. That's silly talk.Interesting stuff to hear. Sounds like an interesting human being at the very least. I guess I should do my own research though. That's why I said it depends on the side you take Military rebels isn't the type that get respected irl. (rebels only get respected in anime :P) out-of-context example |
Revvie-chan said: Polychrome said: No way. Whoever gave you that idea. That's silly talk. That's why I said it depends on the side you take Military rebels isn't the type that get respected irl. (rebels only get respected in anime :P) out-of-context example I think he meant what I said about researching him myself. He was making fun of me :/ |
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Waifu_Strangler said: Revvie-chan said: That's why I said it depends on the side you take Military rebels isn't the type that get respected irl. (rebels only get respected in anime :P) out-of-context example I think he meant what I said about researching him myself. He was making fun of me :/ ah, I see. My bad, then and I'm just going to type random things thanks to this 15-characters limit s*** |
NorthBayAnime said: Idk i just know that stoners wear shirts with his face on it and rasta colors This is the extent of my knowledge as well. He also appears int he musical, Evita. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| He set himself up as a social progressive, who cared about the people and he would fight to oust tyrants to make life better for his fellow man. In the end though he became what he rejected. So a hero? Not by a long shot. Only when you take select slivers of his life could he be portrayed as a hero. He executed or imprisoned (forced labor camps) untold thousands of dissidents, deserters, counter-revolutionaries, political opponents, religious leaders, homosexuals and people suspected of supporting the Batista regime, often without due process. This went far beyond military justification as this continued well after the revolution had ended and he was dubbed The Butcher of La Cabana for good reason. He was a man who was staunchly against free press and to say he was unwilling to compromise would be an understatement. After the revolution, he is more reminiscent of Stalin than the youthful idealist he originally was imo. It may sound as if I dislike him. That is not the case, but I find the romanticizing of him that is common in Western culture baffling and to some extent sickening. Things like the movies that cherry pick his life painting him in positive light glossing over or outright ignoring some of the atrocities committed by him and the t-shirts that every hipster loves to wear with his face painted on them in an effort to say they are 'anti-establishment'. All that being said though some great things did come of the revolution, Cuban literacy for example and healthcare systems are a direct result of Guevara. The fact that he gave men a means to fight, trained them, and led them personally on the battlefield to overthrow Batista deserves praise for sure. And honestly, the things that the US were doing/supporting in South America were appalling. Someone needed to stand up for the people and stand up to the imperialist US and Che was that man. I suppose if I had to sum up my thoughts on him, it's simply that he was a revolutionary who went against his class to fight for the betterment of the people, but power and public adoration corrupt and there is no greater evidence of that than Che Guevara. |
rekindledflameMar 29, 2016 5:19 AM
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| He sung the song "Wind of Change" right? Oh.... |
#CHEXIT |
| I don't really think you can classify him as good or bad as that's just a matter of perspective. Like most heroes or villains even, he did some good and he did some bad. Whether the good outweighs the bad is going to depend on the value's you ascribe to. For my own personal thoughts I think he was a great revolutionary but a poor political leader. What I mean by that is, his revolutionary goals were admirable in most ways and he carried them out very efficiently, but when in actual political power some of his actions are questionable to put it lightly. Of course this is largely because what was set up in Cuba goes against my own value system, as it wasn't democratic, freedom of speech/press were limited and due process was a luxury few received. I'm also a firm believer that the military and politics in most cases should not mix i.e. a solider should not be in a political position of power. For someone surviving the Batista regime though, he would likely be regarded as a savior and while far from perfect Cuba was better off post revolution. |
retiring_animeMar 29, 2016 6:16 AM
rekindledflame said: but power and public adoration corrupt and there is no greater evidence of that than Che Guevara. Disagree. All the sin he did, he did under the capacity of a military leader. It's his role to take the blame and the hatred from those whose family member(s) suffered during the process of establishing communism. Because new political public figure (Fidel Castro) had to keep the facade of purity. And, also, he turned down numerous political position and leisure, taking only those that he needed to spread his ideal. And it was Fidel Castro who ended up making a regime (and playing the Stalin role.) And, if I remember correctly, one of the reasons he stepped out of Cuba was because he had a fall out with Fidel (which Fidel later regretted.) Instead of being corrupted by power & fame, I think it's reality that he had to face that corrupted his method. (Well, that's how you would call it, I personally think he simply did what he must.) A real life example of anti-hero. No wonder lots of people romanticized him after he died. After all, anti-hero sells. |
| He had good ideas, but he went way too far in their execution. That's all that I could think of. If he wanted to make change, he shouldn't have done it through war and violence. Tell that to all the liberal college kids who wear his face on everything, though. |
| hmm all i know is he was like one of those leftist people who prey to live from others people work and he didnt took baths and he liked to murder children. |
| Born in Rosario, Argentina, on June 14, 1928, Che Guevara studied medicine before traveling around South America, observing conditions that spurred his Marxist beliefs. He aided Fidel Castro in overturning the Cuban government and then worked in a political post. Guevara later engaged in guerrilla action in Bolivia, where he was killed. He's revered by many as a cultural hero. He's a symbol of revolution is South America. His intent was positive, but it is said that he executed some Bolivian prisoners without a trial. He was neither completely good or totally evil, like most people. Fun fact: He was also a communist. I once played Metal gear solid PW. That game is set in south america so naturally it mentioned "El Che''. |
InsaniusMar 29, 2016 8:24 AM
| @revvie-chan Where we largely disagree it seems, is on what is necessary. Che said “It is logical that in times of excessive tension we cannot proceed weakly. We have imprisoned many people without knowing for sure if they were guilty. At the Sierra Maestra, we executed many people by firing squad without knowing if they were fully guilty. At times, the Revolution cannot stop to conduct much investigation; it has the obligation to triumph.” This was a man who perpetuated the Cuban Missile Crisis and advocated for a Nuclear holocaust. Not only do I disagree on principle alone, but I can't see anything redeeming in how it was practiced. Also, while he would eventually leave Cuba, he was second in command and the entire Cuban economy went through him. He was a very powerful political man, so this picture that he only wielded power when necessary is pretty far from the truth. Prior to his leaving Cuba he was in charge of executions and the labor camps, was the Minister of Industry, Minister of Finance, President of Banking, ran the INRA and was the voice for Cuba worldwide as a diplomat. Sure he only held office to spread his ideals, but his ideals applied to every aspect of Cuban life. So imo, saying he only took positions necessary to spread his ideals is meaningless, as every post would fit such a description. |
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| I think it's hard to place him. Surely he did a lot of things tha would be considered bad, on the other hand there are many traits one can find admirable. Then again, that can probably be said about any person who has walked this earth. |
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Kuro-Sama1 said: Just like Andrew Jackson on the 20 dollar bill.He's become an ironic symbol. He's had his fair share of atrocities under his name. He had good intentions, but he wasn't exactly a very honorable figure. Not to mention that despite being Communist, his face adorns many a shirt. For a Communist to live on as a symbol of capitalism gives me much humor. Anyway, sure no person is perfect. But personally, his good outweighs the bad. As someone else already mentioned, he's an anti-hero. |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
| Everyone's a bad guy. Because humans are evil. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| He was a great ANTI IMPERIALIST and was strongly against colonialism , apartheid and racism. He gave everything to fight for freedom for the poor and the working class. He was middle class but still fought for the rights of the poor. He could have just been a doctor but the poverty he saw while on his trip around Latin America in his early life opened his eyes to the injustices against the poor and the effect of colonialism. He spent his life and GAVE HIS LIFE fighting for the impoverished and desolate. Dying in Bolivia in 1967 while attempting to form a peasant revolution against the government. The CIA assisting the Bolivian government captured and executed him. Che on imperialism Also thanks to him Cuba wasn't invaded by America and the government replaced to put another American puppet like Fulgenico Batista back in power to oppress the common man. He did this by helping forge closer ties between Cuba and the Soviet Union and allowing the Soviet Union to install missiles in Cuba to use as a deterrent against American invasion, this culminated in the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962. Even though Khruschev agreed to remove the missiles JFK in return had to promise that the American government would not invade Cuba. Che is hated and demonized by the American right simply because he was a revolutionary marxist. If he was right wing they would never say anything negative about him. |
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Dandy-san said: No, what I meant by that is that he was against the bank being a private corporation.I wouldn't say it's ironic in Andrew Jackson's case. a lot of Americans still admire him and he was a populist, on the other hand Che Guevara was communist and his image is used most in the ideology he opposed the most, capitalism I think Che Guevara was a pretty inconsistent guy. he's brave one battle, cowardly the next, guy just seems to do whatever's convenient. not that it's a bad thing, he had a good heart and wanted to help people, he just wasn't consistent about it Just look at the federal reserve, placing him on the bill is a kick to the balls. |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
Sakuraoka said: You must have Che confused with war criminals George W Bush and Donald Rumsfeld.and he liked to murder children. |
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Dandy-san said: Heh, it's my fault for not explaining myself.Cabron said: oh, good point, I didn't even consider that lolNo, what I meant by that is that he was against the bank being a private corporation. Just look at the federal reserve, placing him on the bill is a kick to the balls. |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
rekindledflame said: What are your sources for these claims?. Che said “It is logical that in times of excessive tension we cannot proceed weakly. We have imprisoned many people without knowing for sure if they were guilty. At the Sierra Maestra, we executed many people by firing squad without knowing if they were fully guilty. At times, the Revolution cannot stop to conduct much investigation; it has the obligation to triumph.” advocated for a Nuclear holocaust. Prior to his leaving Cuba he was in charge of the labor camps rekindledflame said: The funny thing is that he gave up his ministerial position in the Cuban government to travel abroad to help perpetuate and fight in other revolutions throughout the world. I find it hard to believe he was in charge of the labor camps (labor camps that were not as severe as those of Nazi Germany since internees could leave after working for some months , be visited and supplied by relatives and action was taken against officials who abused the system) since they were started in 1965 and at that time he was in the Congo fighting in the Simba Rebellion.Sure he only held office to spread his ideals, but his ideals applied to every aspect of Cuban life. So imo, saying he only took positions necessary to spread his ideals is meaningless, as every post would fit such a description. |
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| As I recall Che set up the first 'labor' camp in Guanahacabibes in 1960. Although, accounts vary, as to be expected when talking about him, as to how 'hard' these camps really were. Whether they were as severe as Nazi Germany is largely irrelevant though. No matter how one dresses a labor camp, they all represent forms of systematic exploitation. Though to be fair, all things considered, it seems to me that things got much worse in regards to the labor camps, after he had left Cuba. As far as quotes flung around in this topic in general and used to incriminate him, well honestly, it's easy to take what someone says out of context or without perspective and make it fit a specific agenda. Of course I still stand by my original post, he was not a perfect man by any stretch of the imagination, but few revolutionaries have had such an impact and let's face it, the US needed a metaphorical kick in the nuts. |
| @rekindledflame my reply is pretty much @DrGeroCreation 's reply. Please answer that :) though I won't deny that he was full of sins. He ordered murders & genocides, engaged in labor camps that are no different than slavery because this "communism" said this was necessary for the greater good of the nation. That doesn't take the credit that despite all, he kept his ideal to the last breath. ps.: |
Revvie-chanMar 30, 2016 5:29 AM
| He's not dead, secretly he lives on his own private island funded by the royalties he receives everytime a hipster douchebag wears a t-shirt with his face on it. |
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