| In my own stand point - as long as I understand what the author is trying to tell me then I am ok with that anime series, but "as long as people are happy" I'll go for it because there are things that they see which I don't. |
CrappyGod-sama said: Tylaen said: Only if you can make me a more like-able person at the end of the day. I fear that the MAL community perceives me as a pretentious douchebag that is nothing but a shit stain in the forums of this website who does nothing but berate other users with sarcasm and insults without ever giving a proper and thoughtful response to the questions of topic. I wish to be back with a following of nerds and be held in higher esteem than the good-for-nothing loser that I am right now. Do you happen to have a bachelors degree in charisma as well, my friend? Will my life MAL reputation be turned around and will I be an object of admiration and desire in the community? Will I be happy and therefore okay?Worry not, I've taken a bachelors degree In trustworthiness so your fears are largely unfounded; I promise I'll return it when you return with an oscar. After decorating your page with lewd Fate/stay night art Although I lack such a degree, I can compensate with my degree In well-behaved brown-nosing. You have my absolute guarantee that everyone on the forums will grovel at your feet respect your maturity and wisdom In writing.Because you will be the only person actively using the forums after I've inserted thousands of bots to send you love mail everytime you contribute anything resembling a reply You will be fine. This sentiment does not extend to the period after the account has been returned to you. |
 |
| @paraze @Immahnoob "This is what we call nitpicking" --> This is what I call a convenient excuse for not answering properly. Logic isn't your forte. Then again, that was obvious from the start."Why can't he stay down and have the women do the work instead?" --> Ever heard of nuance? Balance? Equality? I could laugh at Kirito for being overpowered for no reason and a poorly-written character, but that's another debate. Ever heard of non-arguments? Missing the point? That's you, and it's still the same debate it seems."Hell, your worst example is Asuna, because you have no idea she got an entire arc to herself." I'm talking about 90% of the anime (and I guess 90% is nitpicking btw). Yeah, prove it to me that 90% of the anime is supposedly sexist towards Asuna. You can't, because you can only throw vacuous statements like "SHE GETS SAVED." or "SHE DOESN'T GET RECOGNITION ALL THE TIME.".You didn't answer me, you didn't read the other thread properly, and probably didn't bother read the article. Dude I'm asking for a discussion, for real. Seriously, "nitpicking", try to answer me for god's sake, Try to bring an argument that needs more than a few words to dismiss.AKA "You're wrong" |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
paraze said: Hey, I'm sure you all read at least once "what's wrong with watching bad anime, if people enjoy it then it's ok", or maybe you were one of those who wrote something along these lines. Pros:
Yes, I agree. Happiness is also notably harmless, there's nothing wrong with criticizing someone's favorite show in a relevant setting, though. Emphasis on the "relevant setting" part. Cons:
1. Why should I be upset about this though. Doesn't effect me directly. Important issue? Maybe(maybe not really), but hardly important enough to chide random people for watching bad anime. 2. Broadness is broadness. 3. Get just enough escapism to be satisfied and yet not kill the escapism. I don't think you need to police people watching/playing bad media/games though if they enjoy it, obviously. But if they specifically come to *discuss* the quality of the medium, they've gotta expect dissenting opinions. |
| ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ |
| @Immahnoob dude it's ok to like a sexist anime, and even if you disagree with me don't take it too personally, I mean, chill out. :) You talk about logic and non-arguments, but you use fallacies like appeal to ridicule ("Why can't he stay down and have the women do the work instead?"), and discard a whole thread, +500 words from my part, and a long article by saying "No, it's not sexist against women or treats them unfairly. This is what we call nitpicking". Merely stating that I'm wrong and nitpicking isn't enough, try to explain, develop, something. "b-but burden of proof!" I did try to explain myself, and gave you few links that I find interesting, now it's your turn. I don't remember saying during more than 500 words "SHE GETS SAVED" by the way. See, using tropes like the damsel in distress doesn't necessarily make a show sexist or bad, like always, what really matters is the execution. But it's not like she gets saved just one time for no reason, she gets saved a lot of time. Remember the random weak guard that Asuna could easily defeat? Remember how Kirito stands in her way cause he's is boyfriend, even though she was presented as a badass with a strong and independent personality? Remember how Kirito still end up saving her, when she rescued him from that same guard later? Why did the author / studio make Kirito saving her again, if not for screaming to the audience yet another time just how cool Kirito is... and showing that the man still is the one who protect her at the end? How an entire arc was dedicated to Kirito saving her? But I'm repeating myself (I thought I had to in order to summarize my opinion and arguments in one post... and to get a proper answer from you). Oh, and it's not like she's the only one being rescued / helped in order to show us just how strong and manly the main character is... reducing by the process girls in this anime as delicate weak things promised to love Kirito, a real man. I know that Asuna is pretty strong, and actually given an arc where she really shows her strength (Mother's Rosario), but it doesn't change the fact that the anime unfairly treated her before as a good cooking wife who ultimately needs to be protected by her boyfriend no matter how strong she really is. Also, nice ass. |
parazeMar 16, 2016 4:23 PM
| @paraze Sorry to tell you, but you're wrong. You talk about logic and non-arguments, but you use fallacies like appeal to ridicule ("Why can't he stay down and have the women do the work instead?") False, I'm using the same logic as you do to prove you wrong.and discard a whole thread, +500 words from my part, and a long article by saying "No, it's not sexist against women or treats them unfairly. This is what we call nitpicking". Merely stating that I'm wrong and nitpicking isn't enough, try to explain, develop, something. "b-but burden of proof!" I did try to explain myself, and gave you few links that I find interesting, now it's your turn. I've already explained why you're wrong. You are nitpicking.I don't remember saying during more than 500 words "SHE GETS SAVED" by the way. See, using tropes like the damsel in distress doesn't necessarily make a show sexist or bad, like always, what really matters is the execution. But it's not like she gets saved just one time for no reason, she gets saved a lot of time. That doesn't make it sexist either.Remember the random weak guard that Asuna could easily defeat? Remember how Kirito stands in her way cause he's is boyfriend, even though she was presented as a badass with a strong and independent personality? Remember how Kirito still end up saving her, when she rescued him from that same guard later? Why did the author / studio make Kirito saving her again, if not for screaming to the audience yet another time just how cool Kirito is... And how does this prove this to be sexist? So supposedly, the author is sexist and so is his work because they let Asuna chill and have Kirito do his shit?Again, I can retort back to you with the same logic. Kirito is actually going out of his way to do all the work and Asuna isn't stopping him, why is she so sexist? and showing that the man still is the one who protect her at the end? How an entire arc was dedicated to Kirito saving her? But I'm repeating myself (I thought I had to in order to summarize my opinion and arguments in one post... and to get a proper answer from you). Oh, and it's not like she's the only one being rescued / helped in order to show us just how strong and manly the main character is... reducing by the process girls in this anime as delicate weak things promised to love Kirito, a real man. I know that Asuna is pretty strong, and actually given an arc where she really shows her strength (Mother's Rosario), but it doesn't change the fact that the anime unfairly treated her before as a good cooking wife who ultimately needs to be protected by her boyfriend no matter how strong she really is. Again, why does Kirito have to do all of this? Why can't they save themselves?Pfffttt, sexist against men! Also, nice ass. And how is this sexist? |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| @paraze 1) SAO isn't notably sexist. Can you really say that SAO is more sexist than usual? 2) Sure, it would've been better if Kirito and Asuna always adventured as a couple, but the fact is, this story has a protagonist who gets to be the coolest guy in the whole show. And he happens to be male. There are other shows where a girl gets to be the coolest character and save the day, like Rinne no Lagrange or Symphogear. The show's gender balance would be better if Kirito helped more males than just Klein. paraze said: make some easily influenced teenager thinking that it's the man's job to protect his woman for example, 3) What? Are men no longer allowed to protect women? Are people no longer allowed to protect their loved ones? What is the world coming to? I knew we are no longer allowed to talk to children because we're all pedophiles, but how much more suffering do you want to bring forth? 4) Are you forgetting that most of the time Kirito fights side by side with the girls in this story? Not just lets them stand aside and watch? Isn't it what equality is about? paraze said: Also, "b-but, it's fiction, it's not real", sure fictional stuff cannot possibly influence our mind, sure sexist anime like SAO don't make some teenagers thinking that the guy has to protect his girlfriend cause he's a real man and she's a girl for example, sure advertising (radio, tv) doesn't work, sure propaganda is bullshit. "b-but, videos games don't make you violent!", thing is, most people who enjoy SAO actually project themselves into Kirito, tries to identify to him, they want to be like Kirito (I mean, he is best and coolest player in the world, has a harem, etc). At the very least, such anime don't help people to act and think less sexist (especially if they watch ton of shows like that). 5) If any form of media works to shape the user, it's video games. You don't just get to "identify" with the main character, you get to be the main character, personally mowing down the bad guys, sowing your crops, hijacking the cars or whatever else the MC does. Projectable media can't compete with this. 6) Kirito isn't actually as projectable as critics try to make it sound. I know, I've tried. Immahnoob said: ]I mean, I could laugh at your ass and tell you how unfairly Kirito is being treated for always having to be so strong. Why can't he stay down and have the women do the work instead? 7) Sexism is a double-edged sword that hurts both sides. Just because men have it tough too does not mean we don't have to fight sexism. Still, Kirito gets to be strong and fight evil because he's the hero, not because he's a man. Polychrome said: Whoever said the purpose of "entertainment" was to provoke happiness? I said it. So what? |
flannanMar 16, 2016 10:18 PM
| @flannan I agree, that's why Asuna chills all the time, because she's one of the main characters but not the focus of the story. There's no sexism involved in SAO in any case. And I find it retarded that anyone could even think in these terms. It's still a case of nitpicking. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: @flannan I agree, that's why Asuna chills all the time, because she's one of the main characters but not the focus of the story. There's no sexism involved in SAO in any case. And I find it retarded that anyone could even think in these terms. It's still a case of nitpicking. I feel sarcasm here. But I'll quote myself just in case: flannan said: 4) Are you forgetting that most of the time Kirito fights side by side with the girls in this story? Not just lets them stand aside and watch? Isn't it what equality is about? |
| @Immahnoob I actually developed my points and gave examples (unlike you), I didn't merely said "SHE GET SAVED SO IT'S SEXIST". The answer to "why Asuna let him do all the job": because this show is sexist. Of course she lets him acts like a manly man and protects her, even when it's totally not needed. That's what this anime whant to do: present Kirito as a total badass so that most viewers can project themselves into him and tries to identify to him. A badass who has a sexy girl with a "strong personality" (and even a harem)... who lets him protects her because at the end she is girl a girl. She's good at cooking by the way, such a great waifu right? ^^' Just look at those messy hair and that cute uninteresting / uncaring face, of course lots of teenagers totally want to be him. He's even one of the best player of all time... because logical reasons. SAO really goes out of its way to show just how awesome Kirito is, even if reduces by the process women as weak and delicate thing that need to be rescued who fall in love with the first stereotypical manly badass savior they encounter (and seriously his strength make no sense whatsoever, this show just tries way too hard and lacks subtlety). Now the answer to "why do you think that the show is offensive toward women and not men", well... how should I put it... maybe like this? Or like that. Who do you think is almost always getting the best role and the less degraded, Kirito or the girls? Having a over-powered male protagonist doesn't make an anime sexist or bad, like I said before, it's all about the execution. Don't put words in my mouth again. Did I miss one of your message btw? I don't remember you explaining why I, the thread, and the article were wrong. Don't forget to answer to the rest of this message, though. "And how does this prove this to be sexist?" I didn't think that I'd have to spoon-feed you the link between what I described and sexism, I mean, it's not like I gave you six short definitions of sexism. Six definitions that talk about treating a sex/gender unfairly, stereotyping it, etc. Didn't you read them? I fear that what I described falls pretty well into most of this definitions. Or you don't see any unfair treatment or stereotype with Asuna and the other girls getting almost always saved (because they're the weaker sex right? ^^''''''), even if it's incoherent with the initial premise: Asuna being a proud, strong and independent badass. Kirito's behavior is as stereotypical as the girls', but once again guess who is getting the best role, who is the dominant. Sword Art Online is sexist and especially offensive against women because of the unjustified one-sided fanservice and sexualization, and because of the use of stereotypes such as reducing girls as objects of desire and prizes. @flannan he sometimes fight side by side with the girls, but let's not forget that he almost always gets most of the merits... and Asuna did watch him protect her honor or whatever with the guard. In the second arc, the writer made the choice to make a powerless Asuna who had no choice but relying on Kirito. The second season has his whole harem talking about just how awesome he is during the tournament, and yeah, watch him fight. The write could have made Asuna take part of Bullet of Bullets with Kirito (and actually made her help him with his PTSD, without using a totally random and forgettable nurse to resolve all of his dilemmas... that's another subject), but no, he didn't. SAO isn't the most sexist and offensive anime of all time, but still is sexist and poorly written. Men have the rights to defend women and their girlfriends, but such an anime should be somewhat nuanced, and from times to times let its strong female character like Asuna defending themselves without relying on Kirito. |
| @paraze The answer to "why Asuna let him do all the job": because this show is sexist. Of course she lets him acts like a manly man and protects her, even when it's totally not needed. That's what this anime whant to do: present Kirito as a total badass so that most viewers can project themselves into him and tries to identify to him. A badass who has a sexy girl with a "strong personality" (and even a harem)... who lets him protects her because at the end she is girl a girl. She's good at cooking by the way, such a great waifu right? ^^' So you're telling me that Asuna is sexist towards Kirito then?I'd say this is equality, they both treat each other like shit then. even if reduces by the process women as weak and delicate thing that need to be rescued who fall in love with the first stereotypical manly badass savior they encounter (and seriously his strength make no sense whatsoever, this show just tries way too hard and lacks subtlety). Wait, I thought the females were sexist because they won't budge in to either help Kirito or do some of the work too.Now he's sexist for giving up his own free time for them? That's pretty stupid. Now the answer to "why do you think that the show is offensive toward women and not men", well... how should I put it... maybe like this? Or like that. Who do you think is almost always getting the best role and the less degraded, Kirito or the girls? I'd say every male character that isn't Kirito. Oh, and him too.I mean, he was there looking powerlessly as how Asuna's face was getting licked by someone except him. And wait, someone's ass is sexist? Why is ass sexist now?  It seems there's sexism against Kirito too then. "And how does this prove this to be sexist?" I didn't think that I'd have to spoon-feed you the link between what I described and sexism, I mean, it's not like I gave you six short definitions of sexism. Six definitions that talk about treating a sex/gender unfairly, stereotyping it, etc. Didn't you read them? I fear that what I described falls pretty well into most of this definitions. Honestly, I can continue making fun of you forever. You're that easy.But let's end it here. You never had any shred of an argument. Not before, not now, not ever and this is why... Do you have any evidence the characters are being treated this way because they're male or female? You don't? Your claims are unfounded and thus, you are wrong. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
paraze said: @flannan he sometimes fight side by side with the girls, but let's not forget that he almost always gets most of the merits... and Asuna did watch him protect her honor or whatever with the guard. In the second arc, the writer made the choice to make a powerless Asuna who had no choice but relying on Kirito. The second season has his whole harem talking about just how awesome he is during the tournament, and yeah, watch him fight. The write could have made Asuna take part of Bullet of Bullets with Kirito (and actually made her help him with his PTSD, without using a totally random and forgettable nurse to resolve all of his dilemmas... that's another subject), but no, he didn't. I can agree with you that the Fairy Dance arc was a bad idea, from a sexism point of view. But it's a classic plot, so I don't feel to strongly about it. If anything, saving a girl who is already in love with you is a lot more right than saving a random princess and her falling in love with her savior. I disagree on the rest of your statements. Remember that Asuna is supposed to be a master manipulator (but still could not talk her way out of having a bodyguard), so she might have considered the duel the best way to get rid of said bodyguard and any other random suitors. (The author isn't a master manipulator, I think - he's more likely to be a tech person like Kirito, so don't expect too much realism here). Adding Asuna to the Bullet of Bullets would have made that part harder to write, without really adding anything except Asuna fanservice. Asuna is a hard-working perfectionist, and she would not have meshed with the tone of the adventure well. The nurse becomes a recurring character later. She's also there so that we would not think that the government guy is the only person in the whole government. paraze said: SAO isn't the most sexist and offensive anime of all time, but still is sexist and poorly written. Men have the rights to defend women and their girlfriends, but such an anime should be somewhat nuanced, and from times to times let its strong female character like Asuna defending themselves without relying on Kirito. I think SAO is nuanced enough - the discussion "is SAO sexist" is 10 pages long, and I wanted to reply to it, but still can't finish reading it first. I also like how idealized SAO is, I'm very much not a fan of realism when it comes to morals, characters and motivations. Real people suck. paraze said: and from times to times let its strong female character like Asuna defending themselves without relying on Kirito. Did you watch the "Mother's Rosario" arc? I found the part about Asuna's relationship with her mother particularly relevant to me. |
| I disagree with both of you that any of this has to do with the characters being either male or female. So this can't be "sexism". |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| Don't try to use "logic" when you don't even (try to) understand what I'm saying. Like I said before and like I implied, the show is sexist, Asuna and Kirito aren't. Kirito merely acts like a stereotypical overpowered LN badass main character. "Wait, I thought the females were sexist because they won't budge in to either help Kirito or do some of the work too", you misunderstood me, even though I was pretty clear. Most of your message(s) relies on this kind of (volunteer?) misunderstanding (it reminds me the sad "so fitting tropes is now sexist?"). I don't know whether you try to deform my arguments, or simply need to read more properly. Too bad you didn't want to have a real discussion. @flannan, I have to go right now, but oh man I enjoyed Mother's Rosario arc a lot more than the rest (well, to be fair, not that much at all, and I disliked the drama at end... but still!). Was refreshing and cool to see Asuna being... the real Asuna. |
parazeMar 17, 2016 7:41 AM
| @paraze the show is sexist Where's your evidence of this? As I said, prove to me that there's discrimination based on sex in this show."Wait, I thought the females were sexist because they won't budge in to either help Kirito or do some of the work too", you misunderstood me, even though I was pretty clear. False, I'm using the same logic as you do to prove you wrong. Honestly, I can continue making fun of you forever. You're that easy. Too bad you didn't want to have a real discussion. I could say the same about you. You can't provide any valid evidence for your conclusion. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
PoeticJustice said: Polychrome said: Producers always look like a sorry bunch to me. I mean for people to be entertained they must be happy. Entertainment isn't really about happiness, but about delivering an emotionally-engrossing experience that leaves the person fulfilled at the end. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
Gymkata said: did ya get an answer??????????????????????????So...what's your question? I dun getit. |
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