ANIME ONLY: Fate/Zero or UBW&HF First?
fst said: i obviously can't speak for everyone else. but for me kerry and Saber were screaming "main character" to me. they came off as just that "basic". there were times i was thinking Karya at some point was probably gonna team up with kiritsugu to take on team Tokiomi. serial killer-kun was fun but obviously someone that needed to get dealt with, kayneth was such an unapolagetic asswipe that was eventually gonna get taken out but still look awesome doing so(though the opposite became true) Iskander was too awesome to really make it, i was surprised waver even made it since a series like this loves to kill kids for fun. i thought tokiomi probably would have a bigger presence before getting backstabbed since Gil was doing his whole "emperor palpatine" while Kirei was becoming his "darth vader" and Karya i was surprised didnt at least succeed if not just drop dead let alone had such a small amount of screentime.Zero largely takes the ensemble cast approach up until the flashbacks in the second half though; I don't feel that he really becomes the main character until then. the grail granting wishes like some Djinn sounded very fitting with the tone of the show. |
Maloghurst said: Like i said, Kirei best MC. |
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| fate/zero is a lot better after reading the VN |
 Anime is good, fucking deal with it. |
| In the long term it all comes down to how HF will be handled. |
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SeibaaHomu said: If you're doing anime only, I think starting with Fate/Zero is the best course of action. I actually agree. |
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| lots of people say that you should watch F/Z first just so you can understand what is going on in UBW. so why in the fuck do a majority of F/Z fans don't know wtf is going on in UBW let alone know what half the things were in F/Z |
Maloghurst said: lots of people say that you should watch F/Z first just so you can understand what is going on in UBW. so why in the fuck do a majority of F/Z fans don't know wtf is going on in UBW let alone know what half the things were in F/Z Because FZ fans know all obviously.......... |
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Maloghurst said: lots of people say that you should watch F/Z first just so you can understand what is going on in UBW. so why in the fuck do a majority of F/Z fans don't know wtf is going on in UBW let alone know what half the things were in F/Z F/Z fans don't even know what's happening in F/Z. |
Kolios said: Maloghurst said: lots of people say that you should watch F/Z first just so you can understand what is going on in UBW. so why in the fuck do a majority of F/Z fans don't know wtf is going on in UBW let alone know what half the things were in F/Z F/Z fans don't even know what's happening in F/Z. Death game with mature adults. |
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| *Sigh* I must have had halucinations about "understanding" things and "leaving things I am unsure about at that point to the VN read I planned to do shortly after watching it". I definitly did not see it as a simple "death game with mature adults". Kiritsugu for me was a broken man who (IMO) attempted to do something without really considering the negative effects of his actions (he would essentially turn all humans into spoiled brats because they would lose the concept of "death" and/or "conflict" if he succeeded with his wish). Kirei looked like he, as was stated early on, really is a "spec-ops" of the Church. He seemed to be on a "journey of self discovery". What Kirei seems to be looking for was a "proper source of joy yuetsu". Ultimately he comes to the conclusion that it is Schadensfreude which he enjoys most. Kariya looked like someone who possibly REALLY wanted to save at the beginning, but it seems due to a sum of reasons (like the "worm therapy", maintaining his servant and what he secretly thinks about Tokiomi's wife, etc.) in the end he fell into madness and fell into complete denial of reality by the time of his death. Waver is just a (magic-)college student that initially just wants to get back at his professor for making him a laughing stock, instead he suddenly found a way to get into the HGW behind his professor's back and as a result... gets indoctrinated by the "teachings of optimism and something in-between recklessness and courage" also known as Alexander the Great (and before anyone mentions it: No, Alex being a tyrant in his life is completely unrelated to Waver's own development, as he himself was never visibly influenced by any actual "tyranny"). Serial-Killer-kun is... uhm... a mad serial killer? "Professor" Kayneth... seems to fit the cliché of an "overconfident arrogant douche". But compared to Gilgamesh, he could only "partially" back up his confidence. He essentially lost both encounters with Kiritsugu... the only thing I didn't know at that point was that his mindset is actually quite the norm for magi who are part of the Mages Association. Tokiomi... my impression was, to sum it up: "An arrogant, robot, whose worst traits are being VERY, VERY insensitive and also doing his best to hide the fact that he is stupid by putting on the mask of a smart person, however at least he is not a complete noob at magic battles". Not sure how anyone would get "mature characters" from that. I'll neither go deeper into it, neither will I talk about the Servants, because the text would become too long and my memories of the short time period between watching F/Z and reading the F/sn VN are limited. But still this should show that it IS possible to understand a great part of it, but only if you really pay attention to it, which many people don't like to do... And if someone doesn't want to know the story in the VN after going through F/Z first, are to a high a mount clearly not interested in the series or its contest. |
Grey-ZoneJun 3, 2015 6:22 PM
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| They are adults, so they are mature. |
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Praland said: They are adults, so they are mature. Yes, sadly I see that argument actually used by people. When I asked "why is F/Z supposedly more mature? It's because the main cast is adult instead of teenagers going to high-school, right?" once, the answers were just roundabout excuses, never really adressing my question. It's almost as if people don't even REALIZE that it is the reason why they like F/Z more. They are doing it subconciously! |
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Grey-Zone said: *Sigh* I must have had halucinations about "understanding" things and "leaving things I am unsure about at that point to the VN read I planned to do shortly after watching it". I definitly did not see it as a simple "death game with mature adults". Kiritsugu for me was a broken man who (IMO) attempted to do something without really considering the negative effects of his actions (he would essentially turn all humans into spoiled brats because they would lose the concept of "death" and/or "conflict" if he succeeded with his wish). Kirei looked like he, as was stated early on, really is a "spec-ops" of the Church. He seemed to be on a "journey of self discovery". What Kirei seems to be looking for was a "proper source of joy yuetsu". Ultimately he comes to the conclusion that it is Schadensfreude which he enjoys most. Kariya looked like someone who possibly REALLY wanted to save at the beginning, but it seems due to a sum of reasons (like the "worm therapy", maintaining his servant and what he secretly thinks about Tokiomi's wife, etc.) in the end he fell into madness and fell into complete denial of reality by the time of his death. Waver is just a (magic-)college student that initially just wants to get back at his professor for making him a laughing stock, instead he suddenly found a way to get into the HGW behind his professor's back and as a result... gets indoctrinated by the "teachings of optimism and something in-between recklessness and courage" also known as Alexander the Great (and before anyone mentions it: No, Alex being a tyrant in his life is completely unrelated to Waver's own development, as he himself was never visibly influenced by any actual "tyranny"). Serial-Killer-kun is... uhm... a mad serial killer? "Professor" Kayneth... seems to fit the cliché of an "overconfident arrogant douche". But compared to Gilgamesh, he could only "partially" back up his confidence. He essentially lost both encounters with Kiritsugu... the only thing I didn't know at that point was that his mindset is actually quite the norm for magi who are part of the Mages Association. Tokiomi... my impression was, to sum it up: "An arrogant, robot, whose worst traits are being VERY, VERY insensitive and also doing his best to hide the fact that he is stupid by putting on the mask of a smart person, however at least he is not a complete noob at magic battles". Not sure how anyone would get "mature characters" from that. I'll neither go deeper into it, neither will I talk about the Servants, because the text would become too long and my memories of the short time period between watching F/Z and reading the F/sn VN are limited. But still this should show that it IS possible to understand a great part of it, but only if you really pay attention to it, which many people don't like to do... And if someone doesn't want to know the story in the VN after going through F/Z first, are to a high a mount clearly not interested in the series or its contest. Exactly. F/Z is all about shitting on the characters by exacerbating their flaws in this ritual called the HGW. FSN does that too but people don't realize that this is what's happening in F/Z because it has a dark, adult atmosphere. Kiritsugu is not supposed to be likeable in the sense of finding real person likeable. Arguably, he's worse than Kirei because the later was born evil and doesn't have much flexibility when it comes to being a good person. I'd say FSN cast is more mature because they take their flaws and make the best (in a reasonable and moral sense) out of them as best they can except for certain antagonists. Still you have Caster who acts like a bitch but even makes sure not to kill people she sucks their prana out of and albeit arrogant at times, simply wanted to be live with Souchijirou to get the dignified life that she always wanted. There's Shirou who in this route sticks to his ideal but focuses on the intrinsic aspect rather than extrinsic which makes him more level headed than Kiritsugu. Rin doesn't kill her real self to be a mage, she keeps her emotions and doesn't become a stone cold murderer. And without going into HF territoriy, there are lot more characters that progress much better than some of the F/Z cast. |
CyberNTJun 3, 2015 6:43 PM
| The main theme of Fate/zero: Adults are shitty human beings, and parenthoods are even worse. |
Kolios said: Exactly. F/Z is all about shitting on the characters by exacerbating their flaws in this ritual called the HGW. FSN does that too but people don't realize that this is what's happening in F/Z because it has a dark, adult atmosphere. Kiritsugu is not supposed to be likeable in the sense of finding real person likeable. Arguably, he's worse than Kirei because the later was born evil and doesn't have much flexibility when it comes to being a good person. I'd say FSN cast is more mature because they take their flaws and make the best (in a reasonable and moral sense) out of them as best they can except for certain antagonists. Still you have Caster who acts like a bitch but even makes sure not to kill people she sucks their prana out of and albeit arrogant at times, simply wanted to be live with Souchijirou to get the dignified life that she always wanted. There's Shirou who in this route sticks to his ideal but focuses on the intrinsic aspect rather than extrinsic which makes him more level headed than Kiritsugu. Rin doesn't kill her real self to be a mage, she keeps her emotions and doesn't become a stone cold murderer. And without going into HF territoriy, there are lot more characters that progress much better than some of the F/Z cast. Yeah cause it makes so much sense to compare a 25 episode anime to a 50+ hour Vn with 3 routes. For the most part, the characters in FSN anime are paper. It just focuses on 1 character and almost everything that happens in the story he needs to be involved in it. That makes it really hard to flesh out the other characters. Everything u say, I as a viewer didnt get anything from this adaptation. |
GrumpyWolf said: Kolios said: Exactly. F/Z is all about shitting on the characters by exacerbating their flaws in this ritual called the HGW. FSN does that too but people don't realize that this is what's happening in F/Z because it has a dark, adult atmosphere. Kiritsugu is not supposed to be likeable in the sense of finding real person likeable. Arguably, he's worse than Kirei because the later was born evil and doesn't have much flexibility when it comes to being a good person. I'd say FSN cast is more mature because they take their flaws and make the best (in a reasonable and moral sense) out of them as best they can except for certain antagonists. Still you have Caster who acts like a bitch but even makes sure not to kill people she sucks their prana out of and albeit arrogant at times, simply wanted to be live with Souchijirou to get the dignified life that she always wanted. There's Shirou who in this route sticks to his ideal but focuses on the intrinsic aspect rather than extrinsic which makes him more level headed than Kiritsugu. Rin doesn't kill her real self to be a mage, she keeps her emotions and doesn't become a stone cold murderer. And without going into HF territoriy, there are lot more characters that progress much better than some of the F/Z cast. Yeah cause it makes so much sense to compare a 25 episode anime to a 50+ hour Vn with 3 routes. For the most part, the characters in FSN anime are paper. It just focuses on 1 character and almost everything that happens in the story he needs to be involved in it. That makes it really hard to flesh out the other characters. Everything u say, I as a viewer didnt get anything from this adaptation. Who said anything about Fate Zero as an anime. I'm talking about the LN. But of course Fate Zero babbies didn't read that one either... Shirou's approach in the ideal is present in the anime, so is Caster's wish and methods. Rin's characterization is less evident but it's still there.You didn't get that because you weren't paying attention. There's no nicer way to put it. |
Kolios said: Who said anything about Fate Zero as an anime. I'm talking about the LN. But of course Fate Zero babbies didn't read that one either... Shirou's approach in the ideal is present in the anime, so is Caster's wish and methods. Rin's characterization is less evident but it's still there.You didn't get that because you weren't paying attention. There's no nicer way to put it. Yet the topic says ANIME ONLY. My bad then. Of course, only the Ln readers can have an opinion. Not reading it makes me an ignorant I guess. I really dont see why people cant separate vn from anime. Just because the anime isnt great doesnt mean the vn is bad. Its like criticizing the anime is the same as doing it to the vn. Or maybe the anime did a poor job at showing it to the viewers? Maybe Im the only one that thinks that. |
GrumpyWolf said: Yet the topic says ANIME ONLY. My bad then. Yeah but the discussion you're having isn't relevant to the topic anyway. |
Forgetfulness said: Um...the format of the show doesn't really change the characterization of the Fate/stay night cast. Also...if you didn't get any of that from just the anime then maybe you should think about what the series is saying? idk, this may just be because I've already read it but I think that Kolios is talking about specifically are findable In just the last episode Shirou clearly said that he decided to pursue his ideal still because it was beautiful. I wrote a review for the first season where I basically pulled out evidence for the part about Rin as well. Here it is if you want to read it (in spoiler tags for purposes of saving space) It doesnt? Where is the characterization for Shinji, Illya, Rider , Lancer, Kirei even Saber? Ok I can see that. My problem tho was Rins inner conflict never seemed real to me. I never believed she could kill Shirou. I mean she even saved him in the prologue. Was there any other situation where we could see that conflict? |
GrumpyWolf said: Forgetfulness said: Um...the format of the show doesn't really change the characterization of the Fate/stay night cast. Also...if you didn't get any of that from just the anime then maybe you should think about what the series is saying? idk, this may just be because I've already read it but I think that Kolios is talking about specifically are findable In just the last episode Shirou clearly said that he decided to pursue his ideal still because it was beautiful. I wrote a review for the first season where I basically pulled out evidence for the part about Rin as well. Here it is if you want to read it (in spoiler tags for purposes of saving space) It doesnt? Where is the characterization for Shinji, Illya, Rider , Lancer, Kirei even Saber? Ok I can see that. My problem tho was Rins inner conflict never seemed real to me. I never believed she could kill Shirou. I mean she even saved him in the prologue. Was there any other situation where we could see that conflict? Lancer was on UBW. Saber was on Fate route. The rest was in HF (Illya get some on Fate) |
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GrumpyWolf said: It doesnt? Where is the characterization for Shinji, Illya, Rider , Lancer, Kirei even Saber? Praland said: Lancer was on UBW. (But more in HA) Saber was on Fate route. The rest was in HF (Illya and Kirei get some on Fate, Rider more in HA) |
Insertanamehere said: GrumpyWolf said: It doesnt? Where is the characterization for Shinji, Illya, Rider , Lancer, Kirei even Saber? Praland said: Lancer was on UBW. (But more in HA) Saber was on Fate route. The rest was in HF (Illya and Kirei get some on Fate, Rider more in HA) Meaning its nonexistent. As far as Im aware the anime is 25 episodes long and it has a start and finish. To add this, there is no plans for a Fate Route adaptation (I think, correct me if Im wrong) and the other route is just a movie. Either way the 25 episode long anime called "Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works" has bland characters and thats something you can call a flaw. |
GrumpyWolf said: Insertanamehere said: Meaning its nonexistent. As far as Im aware the anime is 25 episodes long and it has a start and finish. To add this, there is no plans for a Fate Route adaptation (I think, correct me if Im wrong) and the other route is just a movie. Either way the 25 episode long anime called "Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works" has bland characters and thats something you can call a flaw. Except that it can't be treated as separate work. It is 1/3rd of the whole. |
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GrumpyWolf said: Insertanamehere said: Meaning its nonexistent. As far as Im aware the anime is 25 episodes long and it has a start and finish. To add this, there is no plans for a Fate Route adaptation (I think, correct me if Im wrong) and the other route is just a movie. Either way the 25 episode long anime called "Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works" has bland characters and thats something you can call a flaw. *movies, probably And Ufotable sponsored giving out Fate for free, in Japan. |
GrumpyWolf said: Insertanamehere said: Meaning its nonexistent. As far as Im aware the anime is 25 episodes long and it has a start and finish. To add this, there is no plans for a Fate Route adaptation (I think, correct me if Im wrong) and the other route is just a movie. Either way the 25 episode long anime called "Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works" has bland characters and thats something you can call a flaw. Holy shit if you want fate go watch 2006, there's your fate. it is just in a different section. As far as information goes, 2006 is fine, it's animations just suck. + dragon |
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CookingPriest said: GrumpyWolf said: Meaning its nonexistent. As far as Im aware the anime is 25 episodes long and it has a start and finish. To add this, there is no plans for a Fate Route adaptation (I think, correct me if Im wrong) and the other route is just a movie. Either way the 25 episode long anime called "Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works" has bland characters and thats something you can call a flaw. Except that it can't be treated as separate work. It is 1/3rd of the whole. That doesnt make it good storytelling. Like I said no adaptation for 1/3rd and the other one is just a movie. |
Forgetfulness said: GrumpyWolf said: Saber had a good amount of characterization in Fate/Zero. Every other character you listed is characterized in Heaven's FeelMeaning its nonexistent. As far as Im aware the anime is 25 episodes long and it has a start and finish. To add this, there is no plans for a Fate Route adaptation (I think, correct me if Im wrong) and the other route is just a movie. Either way the 25 episode long anime called "Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works" has bland characters and thats something you can call a flaw. We don't know if Heaven's Feel will be one movie or a series of them Claiming "Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works" is one entity by itself and Heaven's Feel and Fate/Zero shouldn't be taken into consideration is a terrible assumption, when the two routes are most definitely related. That is about as rational as watching Code Geass 2nd season by itself and being like "who the fuck is this Lelouch character? They didn't characterize him AT ALL. Unexplained character 0/10" If you watch both routes and still don't think it's good after that, then that's fine and that's your opinion. But doing so now is way too premature I never said Fate/Zero shouldn't be taken into consideration. Im just talking about FSN. Thats not a good comparison. Like it says in the title its a 2nd season so its a continuation of the story. The "Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works" story has a start and a finish. |
GrumpyWolf said: Forgetfulness said: Saber had a good amount of characterization in Fate/Zero. Every other character you listed is characterized in Heaven's Feel We don't know if Heaven's Feel will be one movie or a series of them Claiming "Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works" is one entity by itself and Heaven's Feel and Fate/Zero shouldn't be taken into consideration is a terrible assumption, when the two routes are most definitely related. That is about as rational as watching Code Geass 2nd season by itself and being like "who the fuck is this Lelouch character? They didn't characterize him AT ALL. Unexplained character 0/10" If you watch both routes and still don't think it's good after that, then that's fine and that's your opinion. But doing so now is way too premature I never said Fate/Zero shouldn't be taken into consideration. Im just talking about FSN. Thats not a good comparison. Like it says in the title its a 2nd season so its a continuation of the story. The "Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works" story has a start and a finish. Okay, so DON'T watch the spin off series Fate/Zero, or watch it but count it on the same level as prisma, and instead think of UBW as the "sequel" to Fate route of 2006 version in that it is a "what if" of different events. Fate/Stay Night was a VN of 3 separate stories when combined that would give everything in terms of information...we have 1 shoddy version of 1 route, one less shoddier version of another route and a 3'rd still in the making. |
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GrumpyWolf said: CookingPriest said: Except that it can't be treated as separate work. It is 1/3rd of the whole. That doesnt make it good storytelling. Like I said no adaptation for 1/3rd and the other one is just a movie. We don't know if this is one, two, three |
Forgetfulness said: GrumpyWolf said: If the fact that it has "2nd Season" in the title means that you must watch both, then surely the fact that Heaven's Feel has "Fate/stay night" in it is pretty indicative that it is part of the storyI never said Fate/Zero shouldn't be taken into consideration. Im just talking about FSN. Thats not a good comparison. Like it says in the title its a 2nd season so its a continuation of the story. The "Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works" story has a start and a finish. Forget the title then its still the continuation of the story. While Heaven's Feel is another story in the same world focusing in different characters that were "just there" in other routes. |
Forgetfulness said: Heaven's Feel is also a continuation of UBW, just not chronologically. But it builds off of what we know from UBW I'm actually not sure what you're arguing for anymore, unless you're still claiming that you can treat UBW and HF as separate, which I find a hard stance to defend Ok so I should overlook its flaws just because there are more routes? What if I only want to watch this story? Im just saying I dont like some stuff about this show but other people cant take it because it has more stories. |
GrumpyWolf said: Forgetfulness said: Heaven's Feel is also a continuation of UBW, just not chronologically. But it builds off of what we know from UBW I'm actually not sure what you're arguing for anymore, unless you're still claiming that you can treat UBW and HF as separate, which I find a hard stance to defend Ok so I should overlook its flaws just because there are more routes? What if I only want to watch this story? Im just saying I dont like some stuff about this show but other people cant take it because it has more stories. You are to overlook them until it is finished. If there are things from the VN that were not adapted in either 2006, UBW, and HF when it comes out then feel free. Until then, they are meant to be watched as Fate,UBW,HF (as shitty as deen is it has the story okay in ways). |
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| I dont agree with this form of storytelling. I also dont enjoy it. I will still look at it as a single story and make my criticism. Thanks for trying to explain and for your time anyway. |
Guilek said: GrumpyWolf said: That doesnt make it good storytelling. Like I said no adaptation for 1/3rd and the other one is just a movie. We don't know if this is one, two, three Well yeah that, but even then I DO have to agree that it is bad decision on ufo's part to skip fate route and to mess up UBW adaptation with bad staff. |
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CookingPriest said: Guilek said: We don't know if this is one, two, three Well yeah that, but even then I DO have to agree that it is bad decision on ufo's part to skip fate route and to mess up UBW adaptation with bad staff. Fate wasn't that bad and i do agree with the later statement. |
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| I watched F/Z first and UBW makes a lot more sense to me since the holy grail war was much better explained in F/Z(and no i'm not interested in reading the VN.I'll judge the anime UBW on its own merits rather than the source material its based on).So an as anime only watcher who hasnt read the VN,i say Fate/zero first ,then UBW is the way to go |
GrumpyWolf said: Kolios said: Exactly. F/Z is all about shitting on the characters by exacerbating their flaws in this ritual called the HGW. FSN does that too but people don't realize that this is what's happening in F/Z because it has a dark, adult atmosphere. Kiritsugu is not supposed to be likeable in the sense of finding real person likeable. Arguably, he's worse than Kirei because the later was born evil and doesn't have much flexibility when it comes to being a good person. I'd say FSN cast is more mature because they take their flaws and make the best (in a reasonable and moral sense) out of them as best they can except for certain antagonists. Still you have Caster who acts like a bitch but even makes sure not to kill people she sucks their prana out of and albeit arrogant at times, simply wanted to be live with Souchijirou to get the dignified life that she always wanted. There's Shirou who in this route sticks to his ideal but focuses on the intrinsic aspect rather than extrinsic which makes him more level headed than Kiritsugu. Rin doesn't kill her real self to be a mage, she keeps her emotions and doesn't become a stone cold murderer. And without going into HF territoriy, there are lot more characters that progress much better than some of the F/Z cast. Yeah cause it makes so much sense to compare a 25 episode anime to a 50+ hour Vn with 3 routes. For the most part, the characters in FSN anime are paper. It just focuses on 1 character and almost everything that happens in the story he needs to be involved in it. That makes it really hard to flesh out the other characters. Everything u say, I as a viewer didnt get anything from this adaptation. i'm with you on this.I'm an anime only viewer with absolutely zero interest in reading the VN.And for me almost all UBW characters feel shallow (except Archer).The other characters in UBW are simply not fleshed out enough for me |
fathertimeJun 4, 2015 2:18 PM
| As I said, it all comes down to how Heaven's Feel is going to be handled. If it's written in a way that only the plot twists carry the movie(s), which is very unlikely, then it would mean that you really "should" watch F/Z after both F/sn:UBW and F/sn:HF. However what I think is more likely that it's made in a way were F/Z and F/sn don't interfere with each other too much, i.e. there is no order to be maintained, with the most likely exception of F/sn:UBW being required to watch before F/sn:HF, while F/Z can be watched at anytime. Well as I said, it comes down to how HF is being handled in the future. |
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Grey-Zone said: As I said, it all comes down to how Heaven's Feel is going to be handled. If it's written in a way that only the plot twists carry the movie(s), which is very unlikely, then it would mean that you really "should" watch F/Z after both F/sn:UBW and F/sn:HF. However what I think is more likely that it's made in a way were F/Z and F/sn don't interfere with each other too much, i.e. there is no order to be maintained, with the most likely exception of F/sn:UBW being required to watch before F/sn:HF, while F/Z can be watched at anytime. Well as I said, it comes down to how HF is being handled in the future. Honestly, I'd argue that HF CANNOT be adapted with F/Z in mind. It'd be a huge recap with some very few new info thrown in and some action scenes that last for less than a minuts until the finale. This simply because that's not how F/SN was structured. You're NOT supposed to know the backstory first. |
astroprogs said: Honestly, I'd argue that HF CANNOT be adapted with F/Z in mind. It'd be a huge recap with some very few new info thrown in and some action scenes that last for less than a minuts until the finale. This simply because that's not how F/SN was structured. You're NOT supposed to know the backstory first. After the , which was AFAIK realatively early, the only thing that really gets spoilt after that would be , but that's not an aspect that "completely destroys the narrative if revealed beforehand" and can be at the very least guessed after UBW, so essentially only . If you do it like the HF manga does, then you can avoid many of the problems entirely, like the manga prologue already showing that I mean for me who watched F/Z first, it wasn't that much a deal anyway. Even if it had surprised me it would only be an "instant gratification 'WOAA!!!'-moment", and it didn't even occur to me that at that point, so even after F/Z I was still surprised, though it was still only a "nice" scene and didn't have anything to do with the reason why I like HF or the VN as a whole. |
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GrumpyWolf said: Kolios said: Who said anything about Fate Zero as an anime. I'm talking about the LN. But of course Fate Zero babbies didn't read that one either... Shirou's approach in the ideal is present in the anime, so is Caster's wish and methods. Rin's characterization is less evident but it's still there.You didn't get that because you weren't paying attention. There's no nicer way to put it. Yet the topic says ANIME ONLY. My bad then. Of course, only the Ln readers can have an opinion. Not reading it makes me an ignorant I guess. I really dont see why people cant separate vn from anime. Just because the anime isnt great doesnt mean the vn is bad. Its like criticizing the anime is the same as doing it to the vn. Or maybe the anime did a poor job at showing it to the viewers? Maybe Im the only one that thinks that. There are anime-onlies who understood characters from watching the anime except for understanding Shirou until episode 20/21 (and yes this is bad for the anime). It's okay, maybe you missed it because you were dazzled on the visuals and couldn't focus on anything else. |
fathertime said: I watched F/Z first and UBW makes a lot more sense to me since the holy grail war was much better explained in F/Z(and no i'm not interested in reading the VN.I'll judge the anime UBW on its own merits rather than the source material its based on).So an as anime only watcher who hasnt read the VN,i say Fate/zero first ,then UBW is the way to go :/ well until i rewatch 2006 FSN i'm still going to say information wise i think it is best if you do that first...if you aren't going to bother with the VN... Grey-Zone said: astroprogs said: Honestly, I'd argue that HF CANNOT be adapted with F/Z in mind. It'd be a huge recap with some very few new info thrown in and some action scenes that last for less than a minuts until the finale. This simply because that's not how F/SN was structured. You're NOT supposed to know the backstory first. After the , which was AFAIK realatively early, the only thing that really gets spoilt after that would be , but that's not an aspect that "completely destroys the narrative if revealed beforehand" and can be at the very least guessed after UBW, so essentially only . If you do it like the HF manga does, then you can avoid many of the problems entirely, like the manga prologue already showing that I mean for me who watched F/Z first, it wasn't that much a deal anyway. Even if it had surprised me it would only be an "instant gratification 'WOAA!!!'-moment", and it didn't even occur to me that at that point, so even after F/Z I was still surprised, though it was still only a "nice" scene and didn't have anything to do with the reason why I like HF or the VN as a whole. :/ wasn't there also the that was spoiled in FZ? i could have sworn that it was only vaguely referenced/hinted at in UBW and barely touched on in FATE... |
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Grey-Zone said: A huge part of HF is the reveal of the mystries. Those spoilers you just mentioned should be enough to take away a really big amount of what makes HF special. What makes HF freaking awesome isn't just some of the badass scenes or the endings, it's being the route that mind fucks the reader. After Fate and UBW it completely flips the table on almost every thing that the story managed to establish in your head. By watching F/Z first you're taking that factor away. Even Illya being Kerry's daughter wasn't even supposed to be spoiled in UBW. |
TheUnknownMerc said: :/ wasn't there also the that was spoiled in FZ? i could have sworn that it was only vaguely referenced/hinted at in UBW and barely touched on in FATE... The bad grail and AM's existence were spoiled in the Kotomine fight in Fate, and by Gil after the Answer in UBW. Being "All the evil in the world", some of his backstory, and the truth about the grail's corruption, however, weren't revealed until HF, i believe. |
astroprogsJun 4, 2015 2:55 PM
TheUnknownMerc said: :/ wasn't there also the that was spoiled in FZ? i could have sworn that it was only vaguely referenced/hinted at in UBW and barely touched on in FATE... Considering Gil's talk from the recent episode the only missing thing is the name drop, which in the VN happened in the Fate route as well, so it's not like that aspect is a "problem" if you watch ufoUBW and F/Z first before ufoHF. The whole backstory was NOT given anywhere aside from HF, AFAIK. astroprogs said: Grey-Zone said: A huge part of HF is the reveal of the mystries. Those spoilers you just mentioned should be enough to take away a really big amount of what makes HF special. What makes HF freaking awesome isn't just some of the badass scenes or the endings, it's being the route that mind fucks the reader. After Fate and UBW it completely flips the table on almost every thing that the story managed to establish in your head. By watching F/Z first you're taking that factor away. Even Illya being Kerry's daughter wasn't even supposed to be spoiled in UBW. I have to disagree. The "mystery" elements were just individual "nice" but not really necessary "WOA!"-moments. Nothing that would break the narrative. |
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Grey-Zone said: I have to disagree. The "mystery" elements were just individual "nice" but not really necessary "WOA!"-moments. Nothing that would break the narrative. Well, seeing that you've watched F/Z first, you can't really claim that. The amount of unexpected information you learn in HF is what puts the route above the other two. No mount of badass scenes can carry a story. F/SN as a whole is treated like a mystery or a Whodunit novel. You knew the killer beforehand, and while the events might be interesting, a big part of the intended feeling on the first watch was lost. |
astroprogs said: Well, seeing that you've watched F/Z first, you can't really claim that. The amount of unexpected information you learn in HF is what puts the route above the other two. No mount of badass scenes can carry a story. F/SN as a whole is treated like a mystery or a Whodunit novel. You knew the killer beforehand, and while the events might be interesting, a big part of the intended feeling on the first watch was lost. I can say the same to you. You don't know how it is for someone who already knows some of the details, also what makes people like the routes is NOT always the same. I don't deny the possibility that I may be just part of a very small minority with my mindset when reading the VN, but as far as I am concerned, I liked the story itself much more than the plot twists, this includes the plot twists that were NOT spoilt by F/Z, like |
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Grey-Zone said: astroprogs said: Well, seeing that you've watched F/Z first, you can't really claim that. The amount of unexpected information you learn in HF is what puts the route above the other two. No mount of badass scenes can carry a story. F/SN as a whole is treated like a mystery or a Whodunit novel. You knew the killer beforehand, and while the events might be interesting, a big part of the intended feeling on the first watch was lost. I can say the same to you. You don't know how it is for someone who already knows some of the details, also what makes people like the routes is NOT always the same. I don't deny the possibility that I may be just part of a very small minority with my mindset when reading the VN, but as far as I am concerned, I liked the story itself much more than the plot twists, this includes the plot twists that were NOT spoilt by F/Z, like But i DO know. An F/Z viewer reading HF for the first time is a VN reader reading HF for the second time minus the knowledge of the ending. You liked the story more than the plot twists because you were already spoiled by the big relevant ones. You really missed out without realizing it. |
| So after you pass the point where you can get the "superhero" bad ending: What are the "big reveals", aside from |
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