NudeBear said: azzuRe said: Makoto is poorly developed character imo. Sekai and Kotonoha roles is stronger throughout the whole series to the point that the whole story is actually about the conflict between those two. Makoto's conflict was a battle between his lust, and love. Part of the whole reason for his self-loathing was because he hated himself for choosing his lust over Kotonoha. He knew he was being a shitty person. He wanted to stop, but he also couldn't and didn't want to at the same time. Near the end, when he embraces Kotonoha, he came to terms with his own shitty decisions and decided to change his way. He began to look at Kotonoha as person, not an object to fulfill his lust and desires. He was preparing to change himself into a better person. Makoto was a shitty person because his writers intended him to be so. His shittyness was an influence to all major plot points in the show. Neglecting Kotonoha contributed to her mental breakdown, his mistreatment of Sekai revealed her darkest side, and tempted her to act upon it. In School Days, Makoto served the purpose his writers intended him to serve. More people seem to be confusing "development into a despicable person" with "poor development." What happened in the show was anything but that. Also, this thread is not about Makoto. Sure it was inspired by him, and I only brought him in to the topic in order exemplify my poorly written point. Again, he is anything but poorly developed. It's more like his character went towards a direction you weren't comfortable with, and that's the point I'm trying to express here. We should stop confusing and projecting our preferences when it comes to literary analysis. I'm not saying how the author develops his character to be 'despicable' as the basis for the poor development. I'm just stating that throughout the series he is the one least developed in terms of complexity, conflicts, and its drama. From my point of view he is the main plot device just like any other harems, granted as the purpose of him as the center of the harem almost everything in the plot revolves around him, of course there are some exceptions like what happened with Kotonoha during the festival. His role as the main device has dragged the whole story tied to the development of his character and his decisions, even until the near end of the series Makoto did not move from his disposition* in order to brew drama and conflicts between the two main heroine. Only when the pool is starting to overflow he is there to tip the balance (that the author playfully maintained by his stalled realization), status quo no longer and you've got the School Days ending. Yadayada. It is poorly developed in the sense of the author intentional use of his character (stalled) development to drive the entire show, he only changed to progress the plot forward. But hey, at least he is better than most indecisive harem MC out there. Spoilers* |
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
| There is diference but there are examples of both badly writen and unlikable character/characters at same time. BlueKite said: I initially hated Shinji from EVA at first, but after some time I realize that he is a well made character. It is Oposite with me i understanded him during whole evangelion, and he did grow as a character he explained himself he was brave when situation asked for it he did have balls but then.... EOE happened he destroyed every bit of progression he had, turned into full on pussy mode again despite already surviving many hard moments before. And only good thing he did in EOE was fapping too asuka (too prove he is still not 100% fag and waste of space at end) Even though he was needed the whole time since he was strongest when he wasnt hammering himself with self pity. |
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| [quote=Syndromic] sullynathan said: Thus I have proven than Naruto is a better character than Makoto. So to you Goku is a well-written character? At least you should have picked that main character from Gurren Lagunn. Salty eturnity said: sullynathan said: Naruto has great character development and actually accomplishes his goals, Makoto does not and he's incredibly naive. Makoto wants to be a popular guy with the girls, he accomplished that goal in 12 episodes. sullynathan said: Naruto grew with the story, he evolved. Certain things like the death of Jiraiya affected him deeply and made him mature as a human being. Makoto grew with the story. The girl with a crush on during middle school affected him deeply and ended up sleeping with during the school festival made him confident as a human being. sullynathan said: Makoto doesn't mature, he sleeps with every woman he comes across and these ho's gave up the pussy too easily. Even the one that was an upper classmen. He never even though about pregnancy or STD's until it was too late. Compared to how he was in the beginning of the anime where he doesn't have the balls to ask out the girl he likes, and ends up being able to manipulate a girl into joining a 4 some, that is some maturity. sullynathan said: Naruto got more powerful as the story went on and became one of the most powerful characters in his Verse. Typical shounen 200+ episode series nothing impressive. sullynathan said: Makoto became less physically active yo the point that he stood there and let a little girl stab him. He got stabbed unexpectedly from the back, sadly not everyone can run when they have a knife wound that reached their internal organs sullynathan said: Thus I have proven than Naruto is a better character than Makoto. All that you have proved is that Naruto is a more likable character than Makoto, even though he is a really typical shounen MC. You're completely wrong in every way. |
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| I completely agree. Many people consider Shinji a bad character just because he is unlikable while he is actually one of the best written protagonists. On the other hand many people think characters like Levi and Okabe are great characters just because they're badass or jocular when there is nothing profound about them. |
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| Some characters aren't meant to be liked. |
 Anime is good, fucking deal with it. |
Tareq said: I completely agree. Many people consider Shinji a bad character just because he is unlikable while he is actually one of the best written protagonists. On the other hand many people think characters like Levi and Okabe are great characters just because they're badass or jocular when there is nothing profound about them. I don't think a character has to be as whiny as shinji or need to be develop the same way as Shinji, to be considered a great character. Even if characters like Levi haven't got any development in the 1st season. People can still call him great for the role he has in the story, and how great he's in that role. So yes, people aren't wrong when they call Levi or okabe great characters for being badass or jocular. Development don't mean shit if the character is unlikable. So I think all you can do is assume that they just don't like the characters personality. Armin in snk got a lot of development throught the series, but I'm nuetral towards his character. I think a lot of people like characters more for their personality than their development. |
| RZA of the popular rap group Wu-Tang Clan is an avid fan of Dragon Ball Z, calling it “one the deepest cartoons in history”. In his book “The Tao of Wu”, he even states that he believes the Saiyans can represent the “journey of the black man in America” and you dont fck with wu tang |
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| Isn't this stuff pretty well known? I mean unless most.the people.here are like little.children. oh wait Nevermind. |
| I would say that this is correct for the most part, but their is a few that I don't think is totally true. |
| Completely agree with OP |
Reality is the lifeblood that makes a work pulse with energy. Reality itself is entertainment  |
| Completely agree with OP, Unlikeable =/= bad character. Unlikeable characters do however have the negative effect of lowering the enjoyment of some fans of the series. So I still get why a person (like myself with Light Yagami) would rate something lower compared to shows with likeable protagonists. That however does mean that those ratings stopped being objective and became subjective. ichii_1 said: RZA of the popular rap group Wu-Tang Clan is an avid fan of Dragon Ball Z, calling it “one the deepest cartoons in history”. In his book “The Tao of Wu”, he even states that he believes the Saiyans can represent the “journey of the black man in America” and you dont fck with wu tang The Abbot never lies. Wish he'd sample some DBZ scenes instead of creating poppy hooks for his current productions. |
genesic123 said: Exowave said: There is diference but there are examples of both badly writen and unlikable character/characters at same time. It is Oposite with me i understanded him during whole evangelion, and he did grow as a character he explained himself he was brave when situation asked for it he did have balls but then.... EOE happened he destroyed every bit of progression he had, turned into full on pussy mode again despite already surviving many hard moments before. And only good thing he did in EOE was fapping too asuka (too prove he is still not 100% fag and waste of space at end) Even though he was needed the whole time since he was strongest when he wasnt hammering himself with self pity. This .Shinji IS a poorly written character. His mom literally saves him,at some point as a deus ex. He is so inconsistent in tone,it became harder to take anything seriously as the show went on. That's why old anime watchers like me are telling since a looong time that EoE ISN'T GOOD and that you should take the episodes 25 and 26 of Evangelion as the fitting end of this series. I agree with you that EoE destroy shinji's progression and is illogical. EoE is extremely poorly written. BUT shinji isn't poorly written. Don't mistake the mess EoE did with what the main series did. |
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| Ofcourse there is, isn't that obvious. |
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| I agree his dad is even more unlikeable then him tho |
| kill yourself |
| I didn't think Shinji was made to be likable anyway. No person likes a self-loathing kid. |
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| The only reason people hate Makoto is because they know he's the guy who would steal every single one of their crushes away from them |
| A badly written character is a badly written character. While an unlikeable character is a character you don't like but you usually understand where they're coming from and their motives. |
| If an unlikeable character is a one dimensional prick, then yes, he's badly written. |
 "Your sight, my delight. Will you marry me?" |
| Badly written characters; > Characters those connection with the story of the other cast is bad, no progress for his improvement. Unlikable character; > Characters that are either badly drawn or bad presentation. |
#CHEXIT |
| Would you call Shinji from FSN UBW a good written character too? Just because he is consistent? I mean he is mad and acts accordingly, he is consistent to his character traits that makes him a good written character right? Wrong. He is a horribly written character and a mere tool to produce some drama when the show feels like it needs some. In the VN he probably was mostly there for a rape sex scene, altough I dont know since Ive never played it. He is nothing but a one-dimensional "activate Shinji for rape/torture/mad drama" tool. There are no reasons give for why he is fucked up, he just is and produces cheap drama. |
| I rewatched Gundam SEED Destiny over the past week... after reading the episode discussions I found out that MAL hates Shinn. He never came across as a poorly written character (at least to me). Sure he's not very likable most of the time... Just another example because people were saying he was poorly written, but I think people just didn't agree with his worldview and motivations. |
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BurntJelly said: I rewatched Gundam SEED Destiny over the past week... after reading the episode discussions I found out that MAL hates Shinn. He never came across as a poorly written character (at least to me). Sure he's not very likable most of the time... Just another example because people were saying he was poorly written, but I think people just didn't agree with his worldview and motivations. Mood swings like a girl on her period, complains a lot, REALLY emo and pretty much a copy cat of Kira Jesus Yamato. Not surprised people hated him. |
Gov said: +1BurntJelly said: I rewatched Gundam SEED Destiny over the past week... after reading the episode discussions I found out that MAL hates Shinn. He never came across as a poorly written character (at least to me). Sure he's not very likable most of the time... Just another example because people were saying he was poorly written, but I think people just didn't agree with his worldview and motivations. Mood swings like a girl on her period, complains a lot, REALLY emo and pretty much a copy cat of Kira Jesus Yamato. Not surprised people hated him. I didn't like Shinn, and I don't think he was a good written character either. |
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baki502 said: You do realize that because F/SN has multiple different stories and certain things aren't explored in one of the stories right? Shinji's backstory and his rocky relationship with his sister are expanded upon greatly in Heaven's Feel because that is a much more relevant place to put it as Sakura is the focus.Would you call Shinji from FSN UBW a good written character too? Just because he is consistent? I mean he is mad and acts accordingly, he is consistent to his character traits that makes him a good written character right? Wrong. He is a horribly written character and a mere tool to produce some drama when the show feels like it needs some. In the VN he probably was mostly there for a rape sex scene, altough I dont know since Ive never played it. He is nothing but a one-dimensional "activate Shinji for rape/torture/mad drama" tool. There are no reasons give for why he is fucked up, he just is and produces cheap drama. |
DrCoppelius said: Except for the fact that Fate/Stay Night is one cohesive work, its meant to be viewed as a whole and the events in each of the three routes are all equally canon.Feaor said: You do realize that because F/SN has multiple different stories and certain things aren't explored in one of the stories right? Shinji's backstory and his rocky relationship with his sister are expanded upon greatly in Heaven's Feel because that is a much more relevant place to put it as Sakura is the focus. One shouldn't have to explore the whole franchise just to appreciate a character that's in every story so I wouldn't say that's an excuse. |
| No, there's no difference. People appreciate things from different perspectives. If someone were to find a character unlikable, it means that the character lacked a good development/fleshing out in a certain aspect, which is what that certain viewer mostly looks for in characters. So, he found that character was badly written when it comes to what he seeks most in a character, whether if it's its development, actions, interaction, monologues, dialogues..etc. So, yeah, there is no difference. There's only a difference in people, and how they voice their opinions about characters, since some will perfectly explain why he found x character both unlikable and badly written, while others will just say "hurr durr x character sucks." |
| Obviously, some characters are written to be unlikable. |
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DrCoppelius said: Admittedly that is one of the problems with the translation between the mediums, UBW as an anime could never stand completely on its own because the narrative itself builds off of Fate and without that it misses out of some context. Same thing goes for Heaven's Feel, it only works because its a culmination of everything that has already been built up and the impact is lessened if that's missing.Feaor said: Except for the fact that Fate/Stay Night is one cohesive work, its meant to be viewed as a whole and the events in each of the three routes are all equally canon. I assumed he was talking about the anime since he said he didn't play the VN. The anime is, in fact, one cohesive work. It should stand on its own. |
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