soundscape said: Well excuse me for being weak I didn't realize your great intelligence. Charging the Zero Hand was shown in episode 126 (it showed that he was planning this move several weeks before). Thoughtful is not the same as strategic. The plan was isolation of the King everything else was not that important as you mention it. He was prepared about different possibilities how to isolate the King from the RGs, at least that's what is being implied in general. Obviously he wasn't planning to isolate him using Komugi... Yea but he couldn't be 100 per cent sure that the isolation would work even if he hired Zeno, how is that even worth mentioning? Of course there might be a possibility that Zeno fails to isolate the King and they fight right there cause every single plan they had fails(remember the fact that they don't know what abilities the enemy has????), seriously why do you even bring that up. The psychological preparation is relevant to the statement of yours "All it took was a bomb..". Because you are only looking at the result ignoring the whole journey. Please don't turn this into something personal, it's really annoying when this happens. I called that logic and thought process weak. I didn't say or imply that I'm intelligent and you are not, or that your logic is weak in general. Do you mean where he was relatively young compared to his current self at episode 126? if so then how is that preparation for Meruem, when he didn't even exist, when Netero created that move? Umm. My point still stands, I already stated the obvious, that his plan was isolate the King. I'm calling it, basic, and simple, and not enough to be labeled as strategic. Where was it implied, that he was prepared for the possibility of his first plan of isolation to fail? What are these psychological preparations? that was part of my question. Are you talking about Netero's willingness to sacrifice himself? Simple Preparation =/= Strategic. I'm not even interested in this argument, and I'm out if turns into semantics...just wanted the thing about Naruto and character development, and the whole comparison. |
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TonyTonyStark said: soundscape said: I disagree about Naruto, there are pretty good strategic fights. Not all of them but there are some good stuff. Even something as simple as Naruto using clones to establish the way he will hit the enemy is already considered strategy. I agree about Gon but if he actually thought beforehand of using vows that implies there was some thinking involved. But the 'steategy', so-called because they call it that, is ery simple and I think is not clever ebough to be qualified as "strategic" fight. I mean look at naruto vs haku, he had a great advantage and was hidden from them, but decided to come in shouting. 600 chapters later and it's still the same. But if you think it's clever or not is irrelevant to the fact that it is strategic. |
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
tsudecimo said: SaSa-Zoldyck said: http://i17.mangareader.net/naruto/263/naruto-5108.jpg http://i25.mangareader.net/naruto/263/naruto-5109.jpg http://i35.mangareader.net/naruto/263/naruto-5126.jpg http://i36.mangareader.net/naruto/264/naruto-1567957.jpg So? One situation, and it served as purpose for his future character development in the Pain arc. And there were only two antagonists. The hidden rain village is more comparable. I already had that in mind, when I wrote that, and knew someone would reference it. The problem here, is that guy is implying that it's the norm for him do that. When other situations contradict that (Sasuke rescue arc, Tsunade arc, Hidan and Kakzu arc, Pain arc, etc) Note that Itachi describes Naruto's character and he didn't stop being a knuckle head in my opinion. But thats not even the point, you clearly said that didn't happen in Naruto while it did. And whether there were 1,2,3 or 4 opponents is irrelevent, both of them can kill him and he still rushed without a second thought. I honestly forgot a lot of details that happend in previous arcs but didn't he rush into a fight with Orochimaru after he hear Orochimaru trashtalk Sasuke? And I remember him running around like crazy in Orochimaru cave looking for Sasuke. Anyways here is another scan of a similar situation. And this one happend in the war arc. Manga spoilers, its pretty big spoiler. I haven't read the other post, your claim just caught my attention. So let me say this in Naruto's defence, every jump main character that I have seen is like this. Naruto, Luffy, Gon ect. Maybe Tsuna not, he was a scarred cat so he wouldn't rush in I think.. |
| ''We don't know what kind of people we truly are until the moment before our deaths. As death comes to embrace you, you will realise what you are. That's what death is, don't you think?'' - Uchiha Itachi |
soundscape said: TonyTonyStark said: But the 'steategy', so-called because they call it that, is ery simple and I think is not clever ebough to be qualified as "strategic" fight. I mean look at naruto vs haku, he had a great advantage and was hidden from them, but decided to come in shouting. 600 chapters later and it's still the same. But if you think it's clever or not is irrelevant to the fact that it is strategic. It does actually, strategic fights aren't considered strategic by some heavenly declaration. If someone devises a strategy, by repeating over how it is a strategy but not showing any strategic thought put into it, it's just talk. |
This is how it sounded to me, if that wasn't what you implied than either I misunderstood or your wording was not optimal. Ep 126 at 14.23 (the flashback) and that was psychological preparation too. Netero "A prayer comes from the heart. If the heart achieves the correct form it becomes emotion and emotions may be manifested". As I already stated to TonyTonyStark defending Naruto. "But if you think it's clever or not is irrelevant to the fact that it is strategic." Same goes for you, if you believe it simple or basic doesn't change the fact it's strategic. Well I think we should end this. We can do what we always do and agree to disagree on the fundamentals and definitions. |
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
But there is a definition for the word strategy. There are no mentions about it being clever or not. |
| "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; Weep, and you weep alone". Ella Wheeler Wilcox |
tsudecimo said: StefanHere said: now i don't remember alot about Naruto but i can recall one thing is that after defeating the last Path of pain he learned of his location and in his current state and possibly out of chakra (cant remember exactly) walked into the mouth of a cave knowing of how strong the rinnegan armed with a book and the almighty talk no jutsu Except he didn't ran out of Chakara? in his confrontation with Pain, he almost snapped, and his eyes briefly turned to the common look of the Kyuubi, that clearly means, that if he wanted to fight, the Kyuubi's powers was still very much there. The problem of what you are saying here. Is that Naruto didn't want to fight with him, he wanted to talk, and understand Nagato, because he couldn't find an answer to what Pain asked him about true peace. So this only reinforce my point greatly. He wasn't looking for a fight in the first place, and told the other shinobi he met, that he wants to go alone, so he ''didn't storm in''. now the uncertainty of what lies in the cave was similar to the lack of intel they collected on Mereum and the palace is just a huge cave in context He wanted to talk, and believed that Pain wouldn't wanna fight him. It wasn't a situation that demanded strategy, plus my other points above. I would say the fact that he didn't storm inside, and try to take his revenge immediately, and that revenge wasn't the only thought in his mind, is atypical, interesting and unique. and talking about the relevance of Gon's and Netero's fight how i experienced them was twice as much as everything in the Naruto series combine so i felt it necessary to compare the two (in my opinion) What? What the hell does that even mean? experienced what twice as much? do you mean they are better than everything in Naruto, if so then that still highly irrelevant. the theme of Naruto was work hard, come from less then nothing (hate in Naruto's specific case), draw your own destiny and becoming Hokage on his own merit's as it couldn't be a dictatorship as Itachi's excellent quote on becoming Hokage came to mind but that was ruined as Naruto's destiny to become great(reincarnation or some bs) and easily become the hero of the leaf village resulting in the position of Hokage No it wasn't. See, I knew what you meant, and what you thought of the themes. Well instead of repeating myself, I will copy paste an old argument. Some parts of it are irrelevant. So you can ignore the character development part. 1. Ok he didn't go in ill-prepared he had the Kyuubi to rely on (although i would argue if he was conscious of it, if he talked to the Kyuubi before hand and asked for chakra my bad i cant remember) 2. this is my problem with the series as a whole in the Naruto, sure it's unique atypical but it's just ignorance and naivety pushed as hard as possible to the point where its annoying and wouldn't last a second if he was in a universe where he wasn't the center of it but that's the premise of the show so it can't be argued just opinions vary 3. you cant just take out characters before hand actions/prep and judge it by the end result and call it irrelevant Netero believed he lived his whole life to fight Mereum and Gon's transformation was tied to the very early chapters where its said the reason Gon's a hunter (and alive) was due to kite and in result meant more to Gon then he's own future if your arguing relevance everything in the arc was needed even the netero fight you dont think he could of just stoped hes heart and blow up Mereum? the hesitation Meruem felt after feeling and experiencing fear for the first time was the opening for him to be caught in the explosion otherwise a character as strong as Meruem would easily be able to outrun the blast (the comparison was to put it in perspective for fans of each show) 4. so Naruto's theme was to work your ass off until you don't become a demon child and a loser but then to get boosted to hokage level by destiny feels abit strange to me |
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Keten said: tsudecimo... Umm... I know that you have a real passion for Naruto so I will be delicate with the subject. Cause I know how much you love it and I don't want it to come off as insulting you at all. Sure. Was Pein a good character? Yes, I actually loved his ideals. He WAS a good character.... Until a certain event happened... that made all of his development flushed down the toilet... A certain event that made absolutely no sense... It was when Naruto went to see Nagato. Relevance? I didn't mention Pain, and whether or not he is a good character. I'm talking about Meruem, and how Pain, and other characters are anti villains, and Meruem is not the first one, or something so unique. But I will address it, since you brought it up. Naruto convinced Pein to join his side after a 5 minute conversation. First off, it is out of character for Pein to care about what he has to say, and even if he did care what he has to say, what Naruto said had little to no way of affecting Pein. What Naruto said was that the hero in Jiraiya's book was based off Nagato but was named Naruto. Okay, now why in sam hells would Pein give a flying fuck about what Jiraiya wrote in a book? HE KILLED JIRAIYA, he clearly had no interest in what Jiraiya had to say or wanted to say because Pein had developed a strong hatred and sadness for humanity, furthermore, *EVEN IF* this information caused Pein to have a seed planted in him which would turn him good, how in Sams hell does saying, "Trust in me even though I have no idea what I am doing" cause him to abandon his ambitions he set up for decades, and trust in this boy, who he can easily kill in a second? I'm pretty sure, it wasn't a 5 min conversation, considering the length of his back story. Pain did care for what others have to say, he killed Jiraiya, he thought his idealism wasn't realistic, but it weren't Jiraiya's words in the first place, it was his own, that's the point. His vision of peace, and how to obtain it, was twisted, because he find a better answer, because Tobi's plan of the moon, was an answer to his desire for peace. Not to mention that Naruto not attempting to take revenge was the first shock to Nagato, and what made him take interest, in what his answer will be. Pain speaking to Naruto during their fight: ''We both want the same thing. We both want the peace Jiraiya spoke of.'' ''You and I are no different. We are both working for our own justice. The justice I have meted out against Konoha, is exactly the same as you are trying to meted out against me. Everyone feels the pain of loss the same. We both know that pain. You are working for your justice and I for mine.'' ''Do you understand Pain a little now? If you don't share someone's pain, you can never understand them. But just because you understand them doesn't mean you can come to an agreement.'' The thing with that, is that book reminded him of his old self, that he has long forgotten by now. It was something that connected him with his old self, after all he went through. It means a lot for him. It's the embodiment of his young self's ambitions, hope, the time with Konan and Yahiko, a time where he felt better of the world. He also didn't know that he was inspiration for Jiraiya. Other things about it, I will just post images and the quotes regarding it. Since it's all correlation of things and I'm too tired to put all of it in only words. Naruto rising above suffering while Naruto couldn't for example. Jirayia's past words, Yahiko's. Plenty of reasons for Nagato to make that leap of faith. ''It becomes a chain of Hatred. That is what it means to know history. We cannot help but know that people can never understand each other. The world of Ninja is ruled by hatred'' Pain didn't believe that the chain of hatred would stop, but Naruto by not attempting to take revenge, showed him possibilities beyond his old comprehension of hatred. Pein had 1 ambition, but he was often conflicted about certain things. He was still a 1 trick pony, but was conflicted about it, thus he is a 2D character with a sudden jerk of a move to "Change" him. You have no idea what two dimensional means then. It's not as exclusive to character development as you make it out to be. In fact I would say fleshing out of characters is more important than character development in that aspect. Having one ambition, doesn't make him a one trick pony, because there is more to writing a character than just ambitions. It's how his character were fleshed out, from when was a child. On how his tragic past shaped him out to be what he is now. Feeling an array of emotions, experiencing happiness and hell. Feeling Pain and hatred. How he is believable, the message that he carries within his character, his grey character, view on the world, and it's change, the new found comprehension that he found with meeting Naruto, changing and taking a leap of faith in Naruto, etc. Three dimensional means a believable character with considerable depth. Complex emotions and conflicting motives, troubled pasts and deep worries; they are alive with passion and ambition and desire. And Pain is easily a three dimensional character. This is the reason I feel none of the villains have any sort of character development... Also I would like to say that showing a backstory is not development that is character "Fleshing out". It shows who the character is. Already know that. That's because like I said, they are already established with motives, and other common things. They do not need development. While Meruem was a clean slate, and easier to develop, and needed to develop. It's a pretty asinine comparison. You are basically saying that Chrollo is a bad villain because he didn't have development, while Meruem is good villain because he had one. Now, Difference between 3d and 4d characters. 3D characters are characters with more than 1 ambition or decision and are conflicted about each of them. Meaning say... "Do I eat the banana, or not eat the banana? Wait, there's also ping pong to play, and a journey to be had." While a 2D character would just do the "Do I eat the banana or not eat the banana?" ..... 4D characters are incredibly rare in the anime medium but they do exist, these are characters who change as they go, these are characters that go, "Do I eat the banana or don't eat the banana? Oh wait there is also ping pong, let's play ping pong, crap this guy beat me 11-0, now my career is over, quitting ping pong he goes on a journey to find himself, coming across another sport called skateboarding, and becomes a skateboarder." It is a character who changes ambitions or emotional attachments by experiencing something in life. No character is 4D in Naruto so I can assume why you have never seen one and thus do not think they exist. Three dimensional entails what you just said, except a character can be three dimensional without being fully dynamic. And if I'm understand you right, this ''4D'' is relevant with time, so basically three dimensional dynamic characters = 4D No I don't think they exist, because you are literally the first person that I met who ever used that term. And right, because Naruto is the only anime I watched. There are plenty of three dimensional characters in Naruto: Naruto himself (4D) Sasuke (4D) Sakura Shikamaru Kakashi Pain Itachi Gaara Neji and Lee in part 1 Jiraiya Tsunade and others that I'm forgetting. Hunter x Hunter on the other hand, Gon is a 4D character because in the Chimera Ant Arc, his development caused him to have several ambitions at the same time [...]. What is it with you and the word ''ambition'' it seems it's the only thing that you judge a character by. Oh so his ambition became revenge, while having finding Ging on the back of his mind. Damn that is deep. That is what you said, I understand there was more to Gon in that arc, than this, but you somehow, summarized as him having two ambitions, thus he is even better than a three dimensional character, and entered a new dimension somehow. Naruto's characters are all 2D because they all want 1 thing. Kiba wants to be hokage for dogs. Sakura loves Sasuke, Sasuke hates things, Naruto wants to be hokage and bring about peace, Jiraiya was a perverted hermit. They occasionally are conflicted about their ambitions... Actually no Kiba isn't so he is actually a 1D character. ..... Your view on what is three dimensional and what is not, is so close minded and limited. And I guess ridiculing some characters, and summarizing some of the things they care about is good enough basis to call them 2 dimensional. > Kiba Why is that even an example.. |
tsudecimoJun 27, 2014 6:07 AM
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Sorry sorry sorry... That one statement of "You have no idea what 4d is cause there are none in Naruto" was rather stupid of me to say and could have come off as insulting, sorry about that. Also I DO think Chrollo is not as good of a villain as Meruem though you could argue Meruem isn't even a villain, more so just a person, with emotions, who changes believably based off what he has learned. Also I would like to point out I do not hate Naruto as well. As for saying my description of 2D dimensional characters are wrong... I.. umm... I don't really know how I am supposed to respond to that... I will say that fleshing out a character is indeed important yes, but it has no barring on how dimensional a character is, it just lets you get to know the character more. There is a difference between getting to know a character and watching them change. Naruto is not a 2D character, he has changed and become more mature over the course of the series. I don't know if he is really a 4D character as he never changes the overall of what he is doing at all, but he does enough things that warrant at least a 3D characterization from me. The thing is, my description of what the dimensions of characters are is indeed correct... I mean you can think otherwise if you want but... I can't really do anything else except for say my thoughts on it and you just deny them. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree in that aspect, i will evaluate more on it. Dimensions have to do with level of complexity a character has. If a character has 1 thing they do, they are 1 dimensional, if a character is 2D it means they have 2 dimensions, they do the 1 thing, but they are conflicted about it. If a character is 3D, they have 3 dimensions, thus they do several different things and are conflicted about it, then there is 4D, when a character does not necessarily have a set thing they do set in stone, and based off character development, change what they like to do or what they don't like to do. That is the difference in dimensions of characters... Also I did spend too long on the Pein thing and it is likely irrelevant as you say. There is more to Naruto than just it's dimensions though. I love the relationship between Jiraiya and Naruto, the scene where Jiraiya Dies and Naruto has to deal with it was very believably done and possibly one of my favorite parts of the series. In my original statement, it wasn't meant as an attack against Naruto as a whole, just that it shares the same problem that many battle shounens share, the lack of changing in terms of development. A character does not need to change yes, but if a character doesn't change then they lack depth, they lack complexity. Sure there might be some complexity in what they believe in, but that is complexity of the subject, not of the character. Hunter x Hunter does indeed have this problem as well, it handled it a tad bit better sometimes what with Killua being confused as to why people were cheering for Gon when he was clearly losing against the ninja guy, which planted the seed that he did not understand the world as much as he thought he did. Naruto had some good development near the beginning as well, particularly in the Zabuza arc where Naruto was saved by Sasuke against haku, saying that Sasuke didn't exactly know why he did it, just felt he had to, and thus Naruto grew into thinking that maybe this guy is alright, and maybe I should fight for him. (Zabuza Arc is my favorite arc in Naruto btw, not relevant but... Just thought you should know :D) I do not want to come off as bashing a series cause I don't hate Naruto, I just have legitimate criticisms that's all, and I do that with every series, and try to be as little bias as possible. Calling me close minded by the way is insulting to me, that is like saying, "You do not agree with me therefore you clearly do not understand." I have addressed why I feel the way I do, and why I feel what you said is incorrect to me, that does not make me close minded. |
StefanHere said: 2. this is my problem with the series as a whole in the Naruto, sure it's unique atypical but it's just ignorance and naivety pushed as hard as possible to the point where its annoying and wouldn't last a second if he was in a universe where he wasn't the center of it but that's the premise of the show so it can't be argued just opinions vary Except that was the first time in the series, where it was actually used. This ''Talk no jutus'' thing is pretty stupid term. What happened with Gaara, Neji, Zabzua, weren't Naruto convincing them with his words. It was with his actions, by beating Neji, he proved to him that his words weren't empty, that a ''drop out'' can beat a genius, that people shouldn't accept things they don't like because they are destiny. Showing Gaara, that while he still shared the same circiumantances because of the tailed beast inside him, he still managed to make friends, and was able to beat him, he truly sympathized with Gaara, those were things Gaara didn't experience before. It's because he defeated them, his words had meaning. But in Nagato's case, his words had meaning not because he won, but because of his actions, and decisions. In Zabzua case he simply just pointed out something Zabzua was ignoring, and Zabuza was already defeated, so the ''Talk no jutsu'' wasn't significant. That term really irks me. Because in the end Naruto wins his fights, by his power, not by his talking. And Naruto already said before meeting Nagato: 3. you cant just take out characters before hand actions/prep and judge it by the end result and call it irrelevant Netero believed he lived his whole life to fight Mereum and Gon's transformation was tied to the very early chapters where its said the reason Gon's a hunter (and alive) was due to kite and in result meant more to Gon then he's own future if your arguing relevance everything in the arc was needed even the netero fight you dont think he could of just stoped hes heart and blow up Mereum? the hesitation Meruem felt after feeling and experiencing fear for the first time was the opening for him to be caught in the explosion otherwise a character as strong as Meruem would easily be able to outrun the blast (the comparison was to put it in perspective for fans of each show) Well I called it irrelevant because in the initial it was implied that how the invasion went was realistic and unique. I'm saying that it doesn't matter if the main fights themselves were typical and won by sheer power. He didn't do that, because he wanted to enjoy the fight. I'm not sure how true, that Meruem would be able to outrun the blast, I mean it was a surprise. Well I would say that you have some fair points here. 4. so Naruto's theme was to work your ass off until you don't become a demon child and a loser but then to get boosted to hokage level by destiny feels abit strange to me I don't get why is that a theme? The theme in the first half was specific to certain fights, and a good portion of it. It wasn't a continuous theme, that was brought up a lot after the time skip, there was no special emphasis in it. And I still strongly believe that the theme in the first part is whether or not hard work can beat talent/genius or putting the hard work vs talent in a realistic manner (Lee vs Gaara) (Naruto vs Sasuke). The power Naruto obtains is a plot development not a theme. His hard work made him able to reach the stage where he can obtain that power, so it doesn't negate his past hard works, seeing as he would have already died, and captured as a Jinjuricki without his hard work, and improvement over the years. @Sasa I'm not clicking that. Yes, Naruto was reckless and head strong, and I wanted to mention the second arc, but I forgot. It's from the third arc, and above he cools down in that aspect. I'm not denying that it happened. I'm just saying it's not the norm , and it was basis for future character development (i.e Naruto not getting angry beyond control when he heard the death of his teacher Kakashi, and saw the village ruined, he remained calm) |
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tsudecimo said: @Keten I will reply to that later, since it's fairly long, and I'm going out at the moment. That's cool man, have fun with whatever you are doing. : ) Really didn't mean for this thread to deteriorate into a Naruto vs HxH discussion... Really shouldn't have brought up anything... ; ; |
Candor said: lxixsxa said: It's normal, nothing weird about it. Both sides are just playing "I'm the better fanboy and your anime is shit" game there. It's been happening often in the last couple of months in the hxh discussion threads.It is weird that all you guys are discussing Naruto here,why not go to Naruto forum.And the controversy over asspull or bad writing in HxH is no more than a platitude.No one can convince Naruto guy and vice versa. :( I like to think I am not calling Naruto shit. Nor do I consider myself a fanboy of HxH. I criticize when I feel it calls for it and evaluate on my criticisms... |
Candor said: And that's probably the most ridiculous thing about battle shounen fanbases (almost as ridiculous as those crossover fights between chars from different verses).lxixsxa said: It's normal, nothing weird about it. Both sides are just playing "I'm the better fanboy, my fav anime is perfect and yours is shit" game there. It's been happening often in the last couple of months in the hxh discussion threads. (and it happens generally often between "shounen" fanboys)It is weird that all you guys are discussing Naruto here,why not go to Naruto forum.And the controversy over asspull or bad writing in HxH is no more than a platitude.No one can convince Naruto guy and vice versa. I don't know who brought up Naruto first, but that was certainly not needed to support your argument. |
| Proud founder of The Official Anti-Ging Freecss Fan Club Join now! Kellhus said: GuusWayne said: there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat. |
| It was a better thread when it was about Berserk, imo. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
Sapewloth said: Candor said: And that's probably the most ridiculous thing about battle shounen fanbases (almost as ridiculous as those crossover fights between chars from different verses).It's normal, nothing weird about it. Both sides are just playing "I'm the better fanboy, my fav anime is perfect and yours is shit" game there. It's been happening often in the last couple of months in the hxh discussion threads. (and it happens generally often between "shounen" fanboys) I don't know who brought up Naruto first, but that was certainly not needed to support your argument. I am pretty sure I was the one who uttered the words, "Naruto, bleach and one piece had this problem" and people took it as "NARUTO BLEACH AND ONE PIECE ARE SHIT AND U SHUD FEEL BAD FOR WATCHING THEM." WHich is not what I meant at all and it was supposed to be just a quick statement. Sorry for bringing up series with fanbases guys. I wasn't aware there was so much tension... Or maybe I was and just didn't want to believe it myself. I will not reply to anymore people replying to my statements from back then so that we can try and drop it. |
insan3Spectre said: It was a better thread when it was about Berserk, imo. You're welcome. Candor said: lxixsxa said: It's normal, nothing weird about it. Both sides are just playing "I'm the better fanboy, my fav anime is perfect and yours is shit" game there. It's been happening often in the last couple of months in the hxh discussion threads. (and it happens generally often between "shounen" fanboys)It is weird that all you guys are discussing Naruto here,why not go to Naruto forum.And the controversy over asspull or bad writing in HxH is no more than a platitude.No one can convince Naruto guy and vice versa. Is it really wrong for fans to think this show is unique compared to other shonen? And is it weird for a fan of one of these shows to get insecure about it and try to make a shitstorm? edit: jinx |
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tsudecimo said: StefanHere said: 2. this is my problem with the series as a whole in the Naruto, sure it's unique atypical but it's just ignorance and naivety pushed as hard as possible to the point where its annoying and wouldn't last a second if he was in a universe where he wasn't the center of it but that's the premise of the show so it can't be argued just opinions vary Except that was the first time in the series, where it was actually used. This ''Talk no jutus'' thing is pretty stupid term. What happened with Gaara, Neji, Zabzua, weren't Naruto convincing them with his words. It was with his actions, by beating Neji, he proved to him that his words weren't empty, that a ''drop out'' can beat a genius, that people shouldn't accept things they don't like because they are destiny. Showing Gaara, that while he still shared the same circiumantances because of the tailed beast inside him, he still managed to make friends, and was able to beat him, he truly sympathized with Gaara, those were things Gaara didn't experience before. It's because he defeated them, his words had meaning. But in Nagato's case, his words had meaning not because he won, but because of his actions, and decisions. In Zabzua case he simply just pointed out something Zabzua was ignoring, and Zabuza was already defeated, so the ''Talk no jutsu'' wasn't significant. That term really irks me. Because in the end Naruto wins his fights, by his power, not by his talking. And Naruto already said before meeting Nagato: 3. you cant just take out characters before hand actions/prep and judge it by the end result and call it irrelevant Netero believed he lived his whole life to fight Mereum and Gon's transformation was tied to the very early chapters where its said the reason Gon's a hunter (and alive) was due to kite and in result meant more to Gon then he's own future if your arguing relevance everything in the arc was needed even the netero fight you dont think he could of just stoped hes heart and blow up Mereum? the hesitation Meruem felt after feeling and experiencing fear for the first time was the opening for him to be caught in the explosion otherwise a character as strong as Meruem would easily be able to outrun the blast (the comparison was to put it in perspective for fans of each show) Well I called it irrelevant because in the initial it was implied that how the invasion went was realistic and unique. I'm saying that it doesn't matter if the main fights themselves were typical and won by sheer power. He didn't do that, because he wanted to enjoy the fight. I'm not sure how true, that Meruem would be able to outrun the blast, I mean it was a surprise. Well I would say that you have some fair points here. 4. so Naruto's theme was to work your ass off until you don't become a demon child and a loser but then to get boosted to hokage level by destiny feels abit strange to me I don't get why is that a theme? The theme in the first half was specific to certain fights, and a good portion of it. It wasn't a continuous theme, that was brought up a lot after the time skip, there was no special emphasis in it. And I still strongly believe that the theme in the first part is whether or not hard work can beat talent/genius or putting the hard work vs talent in a realistic manner (Lee vs Gaara) (Naruto vs Sasuke). The power Naruto obtains is a plot development not a theme. His hard work made him able to reach the stage where he can obtain that power, so it doesn't negate his past hard works, seeing as he would have already died, and captured as a Jinjuricki without his hard work, and improvement over the years. @Sasa I'm not clicking that. Yes, Naruto was reckless and head strong, and I wanted to mention the second arc, but I forgot. It's from the third arc, and above he cools down in that aspect. I'm not denying that it happened. I'm just saying it's not the norm , and it was basis for future character development (i.e Naruto not getting angry beyond control when he heard the death of his teacher Kakashi, and saw the village ruined, he remained calm) alright thats pretty much all i had to say on HxH as for the Naruto the details are fuzzy in my memory as i watched it atleast 5 years ago tsudecimo said: StefanHere said: 2. this is my problem with the series as a whole in the Naruto, sure it's unique atypical but it's just ignorance and naivety pushed as hard as possible to the point where its annoying and wouldn't last a second if he was in a universe where he wasn't the center of it but that's the premise of the show so it can't be argued just opinions vary Except that was the first time in the series, where it was actually used. This ''Talk no jutus'' thing is pretty stupid term. What happened with Gaara, Neji, Zabzua, weren't Naruto convincing them with his words. It was with his actions, by beating Neji, he proved to him that his words weren't empty, that a ''drop out'' can beat a genius, that people shouldn't accept things they don't like because they are destiny. Showing Gaara, that while he still shared the same circiumantances because of the tailed beast inside him, he still managed to make friends, and was able to beat him, he truly sympathized with Gaara, those were things Gaara didn't experience before. It's because he defeated them, his words had meaning. But in Nagato's case, his words had meaning not because he won, but because of his actions, and decisions. In Zabzua case he simply just pointed out something Zabzua was ignoring, and Zabuza was already defeated, so the ''Talk no jutsu'' wasn't significant. That term really irks me. Because in the end Naruto wins his fights, by his power, not by his talking. And Naruto already said before meeting Nagato: 3. you cant just take out characters before hand actions/prep and judge it by the end result and call it irrelevant Netero believed he lived his whole life to fight Mereum and Gon's transformation was tied to the very early chapters where its said the reason Gon's a hunter (and alive) was due to kite and in result meant more to Gon then he's own future if your arguing relevance everything in the arc was needed even the netero fight you dont think he could of just stoped hes heart and blow up Mereum? the hesitation Meruem felt after feeling and experiencing fear for the first time was the opening for him to be caught in the explosion otherwise a character as strong as Meruem would easily be able to outrun the blast (the comparison was to put it in perspective for fans of each show) Well I called it irrelevant because in the initial it was implied that how the invasion went was realistic and unique. I'm saying that it doesn't matter if the main fights themselves were typical and won by sheer power. He didn't do that, because he wanted to enjoy the fight. I'm not sure how true, that Meruem would be able to outrun the blast, I mean it was a surprise. Well I would say that you have some fair points here. 4. so Naruto's theme was to work your ass off until you don't become a demon child and a loser but then to get boosted to hokage level by destiny feels abit strange to me I don't get why is that a theme? The theme in the first half was specific to certain fights, and a good portion of it. It wasn't a continuous theme, that was brought up a lot after the time skip, there was no special emphasis in it. And I still strongly believe that the theme in the first part is whether or not hard work can beat talent/genius or putting the hard work vs talent in a realistic manner (Lee vs Gaara) (Naruto vs Sasuke). The power Naruto obtains is a plot development not a theme. His hard work made him able to reach the stage where he can obtain that power, so it doesn't negate his past hard works, seeing as he would have already died, and captured as a Jinjuricki without his hard work, and improvement over the years. @Sasa I'm not clicking that. Yes, Naruto was reckless and head strong, and I wanted to mention the second arc, but I forgot. It's from the third arc, and above he cools down in that aspect. I'm not denying that it happened. I'm just saying it's not the norm , and it was basis for future character development (i.e Naruto not getting angry beyond control when he heard the death of his teacher Kakashi, and saw the village ruined, he remained calm) hopefully i got my point across on HxH but the CA arc has many layers that overlap eachother so its difficult picking out two incidents and for Naruto i watched it 5+ years ago and didn't watch much after Pain so i don't have the fine details fresh in my memory as of late i've only been keeping up with the current chapters so it to me it feels like were talking about another whole season of the same show and there are other people who could make a better arguments on the "theme" and cycle of hatred |
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Keten said: Sorry sorry sorry... That one statement of "You have no idea what 4d is cause there are none in Naruto" was rather stupid of me to say and could have come off as insulting, sorry about that. Okay. It's kinda surprising that you are so civil and nice. Also I DO think Chrollo is not as good of a villain as Meruem though you could argue Meruem isn't even a villain, more so just a person, with emotions, who changes believably based off what he has learned. Also I would like to point out I do not hate Naruto as well. Well I said Chrollo as ''bad'' not just not as good. That why I use the word ''antagonist'' since it's more convenient when talking about Naruto, and in this case Meruem. As for saying my description of 2D dimensional characters are wrong... I.. umm... I don't really know how I am supposed to respond to that... I will say that fleshing out a character is indeed important yes, but it has no barring on how dimensional a character is, it just lets you get to know the character more. There is a difference between getting to know a character and watching them change. Yes there is a difference. I didn't claim ''character development'' and ''fleshing out'' are the same. Fleshing out does have barring on how dimensional a character is, even more so than character development. Because it expands on the dimension of a character, make it more apparent, flesh them out, as the name suggest it. To put things in perspective. Imagine a character that was established in the beginning as person with a split personality, one is completely evil, the other is completely good. So at the first episode, this character is still not yet fleshed out. But as time progress and we both sides getting fleshed out, and his conflict regarding his issue, he become more dimensional. Naruto is not a 2D character, he has changed and become more mature over the course of the series. I don't know if he is really a 4D character as he never changes the overall of what he is doing at all, but he does enough things that warrant at least a 3D characterization from me. He doesn't need to change things that are already firmly established about him. If he stopped wanting to be a Hokage, then what is the point of the whole story? that won't work. He receives substantial character development. He does not need to do a 180 turn or change everything fundamentally about him to be fully developed or dynamic. Dimensions have to do with level of complexity a character has. If a character has 1 thing they do, they are 1 dimensional, if a character is 2D it means they have 2 dimensions, they do the 1 thing, but they are conflicted about it. If a character is 3D, they have 3 dimensions, thus they do several different things and are conflicted about it, then there is 4D, when a character does not necessarily have a set thing they do set in stone, and based off character development, change what they like to do or what they don't like to do. That is the difference in dimensions of characters... Complexity can be achieved in a lot of different ways, not just character development. A character can have complex emotions, motives, psychological conflicts, etc. Without having character development. My whole point is that, while yes, character development can make a three dimensional character, it's still not the only way to achieve a complex well written character. In my original statement, it wasn't meant as an attack against Naruto as a whole, just that it shares the same problem that many battle shounens share, the lack of changing in terms of development. A character does not need to change yes, but if a character doesn't change then they lack depth, they lack complexity. Sure there might be some complexity in what they believe in, but that is complexity of the subject, not of the character. I realize that, and I apologize if I came off as defensive. I was just curious about your claims, and wanted expansions regarding the ones relevant to Naruto, and I do realize that it wasn't your intention to make a comparison between HxH and Naruto, in saying HxH great, while Naruto is shit. If there was a lack of changing then it wasn't development, period. Naruto had some good development near the beginning as well, particularly in the Zabuza arc where Naruto was saved by Sasuke against haku, saying that Sasuke didn't exactly know why he did it, just felt he had to, and thus Naruto grew into thinking that maybe this guy is alright, and maybe I should fight for him. (Zabuza Arc is my favorite arc in Naruto btw, not relevant but... Just thought you should know :D) I personally liked Sasuke's development from the Tsunade arc till the Sasuke rescue arc, a lot more. I think the Zabuza arc is an 8/10, not really close to being one of my favorite arcs of the series, but opinions differ a lot in those sorts of things, I suppose. Calling me close minded by the way is insulting to me, that is like saying, "You do not agree with me therefore you clearly do not understand." I have addressed why I feel the way I do, and why I feel what you said is incorrect to me, that does not make me close minded. I didn't mean that you are close minded. I described your way of viewing multidimensional characters as such, because you keep insisting that only character development and multiple ambitions matter the most. Well sorry if it come off that way, it wasn't my intention. I only replied because you were nice, and civil. Since this is already off topic, and went from HxH > Naruto> discussion about writing of characters. |
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Candor said: judals said: I know I shouldn't say that because of my sig (good ol' days), but they're still derailing the main topic of the thread. I don't see a problem if the discussion ended in 2-3 posts, but when it lasts for pages, and it's the same thing we read in other threads by one or more of the same people, it gets tiring and the thread becomes a bunch of recycled stuff which have absolutely no relevance to the main topic people are expecting to hear opinions about when they're going in here.You're welcome. Is it really wrong for fans to think this show is unique compared to other shonen? And is it weird for a fan of one of these shows to get insecure about it and try to make a shitstorm? edit: jinx Well this usually is when one side doesn't intend to have a civil discussion so much as just trying to force people to agree that he is right, otherwise they'd blame the entire fanbase for being aggressive for actually discussing, and it goes on and on. It's much better to leave them to their convictions |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
Glad we could come to some understanding. We should probably stop this here though before it derails to the point of no return. You actually made a good point that a character who isnt 3d or 4d or 5635315D doesnt necessarily mean they are a bad character. I mean 2 of my favorites are Lupin and Haruhara Haruko... Who never change. So ya, good point there. Anyways, you all can continue your talk of recommendations and stuff now. Sorry for the derail and walls of text that had nothing to do with the original discussion! xD |
StefanHere said: alright thats pretty much all i had to say on HxH as for the Naruto the details are fuzzy in my memory as i watched it atleast 5 years ago ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- hopefully i got my point across on HxH but the CA arc has many layers that overlap eachother so its difficult picking out two incidents and for Naruto i watched it 5+ years ago and didn't watch much after Pain so i don't have the fine details fresh in my memory as of late i've only been keeping up with the current chapters so it to me it feels like were talking about another whole season of the same show and there are other people who could make a better arguments on the "theme" and cycle of hatred Okay. The Chimera ant argument got confusing for me, and I couldn't keep up with what you meant, since I had a similar or same one with soundscape, and then my attention completely shifted towards the Naruto stuff. If I recall correctly my point was that while there was planning to the invasion, the major fights in the invasion themselves didn't have any substantial plan, or thought put behind them, unless we are talking about themes, and Meruem development. Fair enough. Keten said: Glad we could come to some understanding Same here, I enjoyed this. and I'm always up to write walls of text about Naruto Sorry that I made you somewhat derail this thread lol. Good discussion, nonetheless. |
tsudecimoJun 27, 2014 8:50 AM
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Keten said: All of that does not take into account the differing situations between the shounens. Can you point out another shounen villain that was quite literally born on the spot like Meruem? That situation is vastly different from villains who have had over 10 years or more decades to make their plans. Conversely, those villain that we do get to see at their "birth" show quite similar changes (Obito is an example. Whether you like the change or not is a different topic). Also, a 180 degree change in personality is very rare, and in case of most traumatic changes, only little ideals of people actually change. In that sense, almost every single shounen has this. The characters' main personalities do not change, but 1 or 2 ideas they held do (even Goku). Even within HxH, you can compare antagonists. Uvo did not change his fundamental ideals because he had already spent years establishing it. In terms of "rushing and fighting", the situation would again have to be considered. The hunter team had the luxury of weeks to form a plan, while in other situations, the characters hardly have a minute to plan anything. Most other shounens also include teamwork, timing and luck. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
tsudecimo said: I'm not clicking that. Yes, Naruto was reckless and head strong, and I wanted to mention the second arc, but I forgot. It's from the third arc, and above he cools down in that aspect. I'm not denying that it happened. I'm just saying it's not the norm , and it was basis for future character development (i.e Naruto not getting angry beyond control when he heard the death of his teacher Kakashi, and saw the village ruined, he remained calm) Yeah its probably better if you don't, thats why I put extra warnings :P Anyways fair enough. |
| ''We don't know what kind of people we truly are until the moment before our deaths. As death comes to embrace you, you will realise what you are. That's what death is, don't you think?'' - Uchiha Itachi |
TonyTonyStark said: soundscape said: @tsudecimo Well I'll agree that Gon's fight had no strategy, not that I believe it (cause if we assume that there was a thought in his head beforehand using vows and limitations, that would at least imply that there was some sort of thinking how to win. But we can't prove that was the case so yea...) But when a man charges for who knows how long (a month?) the Zero Hand how can you claim there was no strategy? It's clear as day he had planned something for the fight. And not only that but he putted a bomb in his body too. Not only that but when he says when encountering Pitou that he prepared a variety of responses but that he made a "Bad Move" it's clearly a sign he came prepared for this. You really think he had no preparations for different possibilities concerning the King. The bomb was there to assure that no matter what they would win, even if that meant that he died right in palace and would kill everyone with him. Not to mention the psychological preparation. I strongly disagree about "All it took was just a bomb." A fight where a character is enraged by emotions shouldnt be some strategic fight, that would actually be stupid and...make no sense to be honest. Netero using the bomb as a final act shows strategy in itself so no need to discuss that. As for Naruto, only strategies are employed by shikamaru, and usually it's just convenience, not cleverness. So much contradiction here. The Rose was apparently "cleverness" not "convenience"? Sheesh! Even after acknowledging that all fights shouldn't be strategic... |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| The Rose can't be strategic AND convenient? Anyway, wtf happened to this thread :| |
jreginald said: The Rose can't be strategic AND convenient? Anyway, wtf happened to this thread :| That is exactly my point. People don't seem to understand that "strategy" does not have complex or clever in its definition. Even attacking head on is a strategy. Edit: also, most of the characters that are described as being strategic have convenient powers for said strategy. Who is going to argue that Morel's power is not more convenient for strategy than Gon's? |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
tesla21 said: This is off-topic even for the off-topic discussion but I will bring it out anyway... Am I the only one who hates Naruto's attitude? He's so confident of himself yet he would have lost nearly every fights he has fought only to be saved in some way by Kurama most of the time (Haku, Neji, Gaara, Sasuke, Orochimaru, Pain, probably others that I don't remember) ... This really bothered me when he found out about the war and decided that he himself had to end it and completely disregarded all the effort from those who were fighting to PROTECT him. What the hell is wrong with you Naruto?? Also we see the scene where Naruto awkwardly headbutts obito... That was the perfect chance to "warp" him with Sharingan, beat him and take Kurama, ending the war effortlessly. Anyway just wanted to bring this up to see what's Naruto fans take on it. Sorry about my english. Really? I got a different feel from him, that he is humble, think of after he became the hero of the leaf village, he still acted pretty humble about it, didn't boast about it, like his child self would have in the past, when he craved for attention. To me, he just wants to help people badly, it's not that he is too full of himself, he is just keen on trying to protect what is important to him. By his own words, how can he just stand there, in a safe place, while everyone he cares about are in danger? if there is a chance that he can help, he will definitely try to, considering his new powers. As for the fights you listed, he won both against Gaara and Neji without relying that much from Kyuubi. The Kyuubi chakara evened up the playing field between him and Neji during the middle of it, but he won in the end, through his intellect, surprise attack, and his own fist. Summoning Jutsu and a headbutt in Gaara's case. That was a brief moment, and a second. Naruto was expelled on the opposite direction after it, certainly wasn't enough for Obito to grab him, and use his Kamui. Your English is pretty good. |
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RedRoseFring said: Edit: also, most of the characters that are described as being strategic have convenient powers for said strategy. Who is going to argue that Morel's power is not more convenient for strategy than Gon's? This falls in line with the nen ability fitting the character. Most likely Morel chose Deep Purple because it fit him as a strategic type of person, whereas Gon chose his Ja-Janken because it simply fits his more direct nature. Also, Morel and Knov were obviously chosen by Netero (and by extension Togashi) because their abilities are well suited for this mission. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| Pointless debate HxH vs Naruto, let's get straight again. I wasn't even mention Naruto in my first post. |
insan3Spectre said: RedRoseFring said: Edit: also, most of the characters that are described as being strategic have convenient powers for said strategy. Who is going to argue that Morel's power is not more convenient for strategy than Gon's? This falls in line with the nen ability fitting the character. Most likely Morel chose Deep Purple because it fit him as a strategic type of person, whereas Gon chose his Ja-Janken because it simply fits his more direct nature. Also, Morel and Knov were obviously chosen by Netero (and by extension Togashi) because their abilities are well suited for this mission. Um, that is kind of off-topic from what I was saying. I was simply saying that those who shout "strategy" all the time hardly realize that some abilities are simply better for it than others. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| Yeah, I get that. I just wanted to point out that the reason Morel would have chosen something like Deep Purple is because he is already adept at using strategy in his fights, whereas Gon for the most part isn't. Though most of my motivation was to steer the topic away from Naruto...off-topic comment or not. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| Come on people lets get back to suggestions, some of us taking notes on what might be unknown but worth to watch here... Trying to get back to the topic... How about gintama? (Hardly unknown lol) That is If you like short arcs (5 episodes top) and adult humor. |
| If anyone hasn't read Vinland Saga yet, please read it. |
| There are plenty of shows with actual development and good writing. But hey who am I kidding, you watch anime for the punching. |
SolviteSekai said: There are plenty of shows with actual development and good writing. But hey who am I kidding, you watch anime for the punching. Trying to stir up shit as usual, I see. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
insan3Spectre said: SolviteSekai said: There are plenty of shows with actual development and good writing. But hey who am I kidding, you watch anime for the punching. Trying to stir up shit as usual, I see. That is the main reason for these forums to exist. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| I'm pretty sure "stirring up shit" isn't the same as having discussions, but okay.... |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
tesla21 said: annie_leonheart said: Come on people lets get back to suggestions, some of us taking notes on what might be unknown but worth to watch here... Trying to get back to the topic... How about gintama? (Hardly unknown lol) That is If you like short arcs (5 episodes top) and adult humor. I liked Gintama till the hemorroids guy started to appear so much(can't stand him), so many hemorroid jokes got annoying... I still plan to continue it at some point though gotta admit hemorrhoids jokes doesn't sound funny for the people who have hemorrhoids lol jk, but its true that Gintama tend to overuse the same joke sometimes. Ok this may not be for everyone but if you like gore and somewhat decent plot you could give Terraformers and Akame ga Kiru a try. they are not better than the ones mentioned before but they are interesting and have the (no one is safe) theme that i like. |
| If there is any good to come out of this thread, is the possibility of people giving Vinland Saga a try. |
|
| And for a certain someone to stop trying to flame/bait. I mean not only did you derail the thread, but every comment you make here is a not-so-subtle effort to insult the fanbase or how they discuss things, even when it's you who starts the flamewars or lowers the quality of discussion, and then take a back seat and pretend you did nothing. |
TonyTonyStarkJun 28, 2014 2:31 PM
| I think I'll give Vinland Saga try. Is it manga only? If there's anything I'd recommend to the OP, it's Gurren Lagann. It may not be as sophisticated as the Chimera Ant arc -- no, it's nothing like the Chimera Ant arc. But TTGL was definitely a roller coaster ride, an amazing one at that. |
jreginald said: I think I'll give Vinland Saga try. Is it manga only? Yeah. One of the series that I think I will always prefer in manga format. But I suppose, that goes for a lot of Seinen manga I read. |
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